View Full Version : Have we reached the pinnacle of self contained cartridge small arms?
Eurodriver
07-25-14, 20:00
How many weapon systems are in current use that are based off designs 50+ years old? This can be extended to much more than just small arms (B52s, ships, heavy artillery, dumb munitions, etc) but strictly speaking - small arms in use around the world are relatively old.
Think about the rapid advancement of firearms from 1800-1900. We went from muskets to machine guns. From 1900 to 1950 we went from belt fed water cooled machine guns to automatic shoulder fired assault rifles...and since the 1950s? We've just improved on those original designs.
Examples :
AK platform - Fires a smaller cartridge and has synthetic furniture but is still nearly identical to the original AK47...which was almost a direct copy of the STG44...
AR platform - Fires the same cartridge and has gotten more modular since the 1950s and the operating system remains the same.
M249/M240 are loosely based on (or at least inspired by) the German MG34 platform.
M2 - Has this weapon changed at all since the 1930s?
Handguns - Still recoil operated like the 1911 a hundred years ago - just polymer frames and striker fired now.
If you get beyond the aesthetics just about every small arm (to include crew served weapons) can find a direct ancestor. Lacking are the laser guns of the future. We've been using the self contained cartridge now for over 150 years. 150 years before that the flintlock had just started becoming commonplace.
When and what will be the next great innovation in small arms and will any civilians get to use it?
Moose-Knuckle
07-25-14, 20:03
Wait until rail gun technology is scaled down and we get energy weapons.
Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range anyone?
Wait until rail gun technology is scaled down and we get energy weapons.
Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range anyone?
"RESTRICTED MIL/LE ONLY"....
MountainRaven
07-25-14, 20:26
How many weapon systems are in current use that are based off designs 50+ years old? This can be extended to much more than just small arms (B52s, ships, heavy artillery, dumb munitions, etc) but strictly speaking - small arms in use around the world are relatively old.
Think about the rapid advancement of firearms from 1800-1900. We went from muskets to machine guns. From 1900 to 1950 we went from belt fed water cooled machine guns to automatic shoulder fired assault rifles...and since the 1950s? We've just improved on those original designs.
Examples :
AK platform - Fires a smaller cartridge and has synthetic furniture but is still nearly identical to the original AK47...which was almost a direct copy of the STG44...
AR platform - Fires the same cartridge and has gotten more modular since the 1950s and the operating system remains the same.
M249/M240 are loosely based on (or at least inspired by) the German MG34 platform.
M2 - Has this weapon changed at all since the 1930s?
Handguns - Still recoil operated like the 1911 a hundred years ago - just polymer frames and striker fired now.
If you get beyond the aesthetics just about every small arm (to include crew served weapons) can find a direct ancestor. Lacking are the laser guns of the future. We've been using the self contained cartridge now for over 150 years. 150 years before that the flintlock had just started becoming commonplace.
When and what will be the next great innovation in small arms and will any civilians get to use it?
Couple things:
1-The AK-47 only resembles the StG-44 if you squint and are in bad light. Once you start to take them apart, the similarities completely end.
2-Striker-fired has been around a long time. I think JMB has some striker-fired pistol designs that are about a Century old, now. And the BHP was, in fact, originally going to be a striker-fired pistol. And then he died.
I wouldn't say we've reached the pinnacle, but we have definitely reached a plateau. And if we have reached the pinnacle of self-contained cartridge firearms, we have also pretty much reached the pinnacle of projectile weapons. The only place for projectile weapons to go is smaller cartridges with more efficient powders. Railguns, Gauss rifles, and the like might eventually become feasible, but those will probably be limited to an anti-materiel role.
We already have directed energy weapons, of course, but I doubt we'll see them replace projectile weapons any time soon. At least not for small arms.
Leaveammoforme
07-25-14, 20:40
I would say the advancements are still coming by way of efficiency. From better powders to lathe turned projectiles to coatings/preps such as melonite. By way of systems we have things like Metal Storm. I believe most attention is being put towards concentrated 'beams'. Whether it be laser, microwave, plasma or old fashioned plain jane noise. Also the non-lethal field has grown leaps and bounds. It's not that projectile based systems have reached the pinnacle it's just that the JMB's, Maxim's, Eugene's & Mikhail's of our time are working on different projects.
"RESTRICTED MIL/LE ONLY"....
Naturally, wouldn't want such weapons of war on the streets of America.
Wait.. Cough...hmmm
Nope. In the same way externally the ma deuce has gone basically unchanged, the CNC based machining and material science capability to make quick-change barrels, modular rails, weaponlights worthy of a HMG, and optics can still basically reinvent the platform without touching the hardware, the same will get applied elsewhere on those systems.
Materials science is always the bottleneck - we can't get the power density in batteries to run a 40W laser/rail accelerator system to make it a competitive/useful weight yet, but we know it's coming. Really advanced carbon composite stuff very likely will create some novel possibility in the near future, at least for receivers/furniture type systems, and integrally powered rails are going to show up soon enough for at least some small arms applications.
The caseless/telescoping case stuff is still another generation out before it's really prevalent, but a truly modular (take the motivation behind the Masada and don't let Bushhampster near it) platform in an intermediate caliber option is still a very real possibility. Couple this with some other dovetailed stuff (GenII-GenIII Reptar type stuff, but integrated into the sighting system (e.g. under a VCOG-Gen2) and a few otherwise unrelated design stuff starts to fit in. Caseless takes away a fair bit of the headaches with bullpups; if we're looking at integral optics packages then a good modular (McMillan bolt type) stock/cheekweld systems can fit and work well all built off good carbon fibre layups. A really modular system with that (rail type upper receiver section that can have modular magwell, bolt/carrier assembly, and barrel) all integrated in a 8lb package is pretty probable, whether anybody will fund it without a major international conflict looming is another.
I think we need to explore the combination of caseless ammunition and no ejection port just one more time. Cookoffs are so much fun.
It's a balance of mass, diameter and velocity.
There is no beating physics.
A more effective cartridge is going to be more difficult to control.
Period.
BoringGuy45
07-25-14, 22:49
Have we reached the pinnacle of firearm technology? Given that this question has been asked about every technology at every time in history where technology seemed to be in a plateau, I'd venture to guess that the answer is no. In the 1890s, it was widely believed that everything that could be invented was already invented. There's a lot of technology that I just don't think we can get our heads around, or is currently in existence but we're scoffing at, that may one day catapult small arm technology into the next phase of history.
The thing with firearm technology is that innovations are often met with very stiff and angry opposition. Anytime a new firearm technology comes out, the immediate and overwhelming consensus is: What we already have is just fine; it's gimmicky; it's the solution to a non-existent problem; any money you want to spend on this should go toward ammo and training classes; anyone who thinks this is a good product is probably a fat nerd living in his parents' basement playing Call of Duty all day and has no business using real firearms. Now, all this has been true in many, probably most cases, but it seems to be the knee jerk reaction by many in the gun community to just about everything. Look at the people who still won't touch a semi-auto pistol because, damn it, if a revolver was good enough for them when they were young, there's no reason why people today should carry anything else. How many old timers (or young guys wanting to be be old timers) think the military needs to go back to the M14 or even M1 Garand and start teaching better marksmanship to make those 8 shots count? I hear it every freakin' day. This is a very conservative community that, in many ways, really doesn't want any new advancements.
That said, new technology will come. It will either evolve slowly from current technology, or it will come out of nowhere and be a revolution that changes the gun world more than the introduction of the repeating firearms. We'll see.
The only thing new is materials and material processes.
And the BHP was, in fact, originally going to be a striker-fired pistol. And then he died.
Source?
I would like to see a smaller and faster pistol cartridge replace 9x19. If it would have the same effectiveness as 9x19, hold more bullets, and have less recoil, I would consider that an advancement.
.22WMR seems promising with those Gold Dots...
I don't think 5.56mm is going to go anywhere until we go to case-less. And we're not going to replace the AR-15 platform until we move away from 5.56mm. We need to generally adopt brown tip.
I think the next great innovations will be in detection and targeting. Much like smart missile systems writ small for the infantryman. Not smart bullets at first, but computerized scopes that take situational inputs, lock on a target, and fine tune the gross movements of the shooter. How about satellite/drone sensors relayed through a hi-def, rifle mounted screen. Facial recognition type profiling to designate enemy type as well as individuals in BOLO files. Scanning from urban crowds to room clearing for whatever percentage degree of confidence the ROE allow to engage. CGI highlighting building occupants and interiors and exteriors; topo maps in real time.
All of which will be painfully expensive. But hopefully bring the price of a decent current thermal scope down to earth.
I feel even in the last ten years we have seen improvement in bullet technology. Speer Gold dot and Barnes TSX come to mind. Now I get these may be much older than ten years, maybe some one more knowledgable can chime in.
I do however feel in recent years we have started to settle on some of these loadings as being superior, and available to the public.
The base of the AR has gone unchanged but I do feel in the last 8 years we have seen huge advances in user interface products for these guns.
A lot of AKs seem to have not changed much to me, I do see some custom stuff out there, but the design really lacks modularity.
The new small arms out there SCAR, ACR, AX100, XCR and the like seem to offer only subjective improvement over the AR. So no, there probably has not ben much new.
The next step will be something new, really using an explosion to move a projectile is quite old fashion. If we chose to we really could go about it differently.
The issue is we (USA or other super power military) are not pushing for the next step, it seems for financial reasons we are sticking with what we've got.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-28-14, 09:45
I think we have pretty much figured out the best ways to propel metal slugs at each other. From here out it is just tinkering. I think a guy with a 1911 in 1918 would be perfectly fine today. Sure the sights were meh, but the gun is basically as good as it gets other than a few engineering and ergonomic tweaks. Bullet wise the 230 FMJ was effective in its day, and no less effective now. Of course, developments like the Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Ranger, etc have really improved lethality, but it was always pretty good. Some would argue that 9mm is an improvement, but I have seen the pendulum swing in both directions at least twice in my lifetime--and I have no reason to believe it won't swing back again.
I will be a stick in the mud and agree, small arms are pretty much done until there is something completely category changing like a beam weapon or something like that.
MountainRaven
07-28-14, 13:04
Source?
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/Jagdraben/000_zps5ef61638.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/Jagdraben/002jpgoriginal_zpsf2a0a27b.jpeg
Thanks Fjallhrafn. That's pretty neat. Makes you wonder.
I think the next great innovations will be in detection and targeting.
A HUD integrated into your Oakleys with crosshair and remaining round count.
Thanks Fjallhrafn. That's pretty neat. Makes you wonder.
A HUD integrated into your Oakleys with crosshair and remaining round count.
That'll be comparably easy. Real-time distance-sensitive situational overlays with contextual crosshairs (Rifle/GL/Airburst/Laser) and Thermal/ImageIntensified nearIR integration with the ability to flag heat signatures from self-organized drone swarms is the 2020-2025 Objective technology development goal. In the same way that missile based combat in air to air engagements became primarily about signature acquisition, and target discrimination, bringing that same capability to urban infantry combat will be the answer there.
While the focus is going to be on sensing systems attached to the soldier/rifle in the soldier as a system concept, that still leaves room for a fair bit of marginal improvement in the kinetic projectile delivery portion of that system, and most of the weight savings is going to be dictated by a greater willingness to have a more expensive modular weapon system (that enables more high tech hardware to be mounted onboard a rifle, improving overall capability for each weapon system package); they'll be small incremental improvements, but some improvements will be made as the overall system cost goes up and designs can better leverage composite materials and more compact electronics systems.
How many weapon systems are in current use that are based off designs 50+ years old? This can be extended to much more than just small arms (B52s, ships, heavy artillery, dumb munitions, etc) but strictly speaking - small arms in use around the world are relatively old.
Think about the rapid advancement of firearms from 1800-1900. We went from muskets to machine guns. From 1900 to 1950 we went from belt fed water cooled machine guns to automatic shoulder fired assault rifles...and since the 1950s? We've just improved on those original designs.
Examples :
AK platform - Fires a smaller cartridge and has synthetic furniture but is still nearly identical to the original AK47...which was almost a direct copy of the STG44...
AR platform - Fires the same cartridge and has gotten more modular since the 1950s and the operating system remains the same.
M249/M240 are loosely based on (or at least inspired by) the German MG34 platform.
M2 - Has this weapon changed at all since the 1930s?
Handguns - Still recoil operated like the 1911 a hundred years ago - just polymer frames and striker fired now.
If you get beyond the aesthetics just about every small arm (to include crew served weapons) can find a direct ancestor. Lacking are the laser guns of the future. We've been using the self contained cartridge now for over 150 years. 150 years before that the flintlock had just started becoming commonplace.
When and what will be the next great innovation in small arms and will any civilians get to use it?
Consider how many cartridges are basically what they were over 100 years ago!
9mm Parabellum and .45ACP
It's a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" situation.
Until we do come out with the phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_plasma_gun) I don't expect any major changes.
Outlander Systems
07-28-14, 18:45
When a design like the KRISS Vector can be scaled down, and fully eradicate all felt/perceived recoil, and a built in suppressor reduces the volume to not requiring Ear Pro, THEN we will have reached the pinnacle of slinging lead.
Yea, maybe, as far as slinging lead goes but it would be nice to put all that lead on target so the afore mentioned acquisition/targeting systems will be of considerable importance.
I think small arms essentially have reached the pinnacle. We will continue to see interesting evolutionary changes, and some near (but not quite) revolutionary changes like reliable cased telescoping ammunition. Where it is going to get interesting is electro optics. I believe we will see integrated NV/Thermal systems with daylight capabilities that are very compact, very light, very power efficient, and much much less expensive than current prices. Add smart ballistic computers slaved to the integrated day/night electro optics, smart munitions, etc.
I think the next great innovations will be in detection and targeting. Much like smart missile systems writ small for the infantryman. Not smart bullets at first, but computerized scopes that take situational inputs, lock on a target, and fine tune the gross movements of the shooter.
The technology is already there (trackingpoint) its just uber $. But over time the technology will become less expensive and more available. Also IIRC guided rounds have been tested successfully so that could make up for any small deficiencies.
A HUD integrated into your Oakleys with crosshair and remaining round count.
I think a direct link from the firearm into a helmet mounted display is the future, there will be no sights to aim down, it will all be HUD based. The firearm will have a built in optic, rangefinder, and atmospheric sensor/gps relay that feeds to the HUD, then a program calculates trajectory so all the user has to do is put the reticle on the target and pull the trigger.
I think small arms essentially have reached the pinnacle. We will continue to see interesting evolutionary changes, and some near (but not quite) revolutionary changes like reliable cased telescoping ammunition. Where it is going to get interesting is electro optics. I believe we will see integrated NV/Thermal systems with daylight capabilities that are very compact, very light, very power efficient, and much much less expensive than current prices. Add smart ballistic computers slaved to the integrated day/night electro optics, smart munitions, etc.
Yeah, before we see an improvement in cased ammo down rifled barrels, we will likely have optics that will completely dope the shot before it's even fired.
When and what will be the next great innovation in small arms and will any civilians get to use it?
The laser guided .50 cal round is on the way to operational reality. As material science and miniaturization improves so will the rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
07-29-14, 03:14
I think before we see anything case-less we will see DARPA's "smart bullets". As technology progresses things are miniaturized, just imagine the capabilities of smart bombs in a small arms envelope.
I think before we see anything case-less we will see DARPA's "smart bullets". As technology progresses things are miniaturized, just imagine the capabilities of smart bombs in a small arms envelope.
And I consider this a revolutionary change. What has happened to the bomb, missile, and artillery rounds is finally happening to small arms. The individual enemy infantryman will have guided bullets coming at him, this is a big deal.
M2 - Has this weapon changed at all since the 1930s?
For what it's worth, the new M2s we're fielding are fixed headspace/timing and have quick change barrels with the BE Meyers flash hiders. I believe it's simply called the M2A2.
The technology is already there (trackingpoint) its just uber $. But over time the technology will become less expensive and more available. Also IIRC guided rounds have been tested successfully so that could make up for any small deficiencies.
I think a direct link from the firearm into a helmet mounted display is the future, there will be no sights to aim down, it will all be HUD based. The firearm will have a built in optic, rangefinder, and atmospheric sensor/gps relay that feeds to the HUD, then a program calculates trajectory so all the user has to do is put the reticle on the target and pull the trigger.
Tracking point is also ridiculously large at this point. Current electro optics and integrated ballistic computers are analogous to early home computers and mobile phones. In 5-10 years I believe we will see his technology become much much smaller and more user friendly.
What we need to work on now is getting rid of the anti gun political movement, eliminate gun laws up to and including the NFA, abolishing the anti gun policies of NY, NJ, MA, MD, CT, CA, and HI, eradicate its presence from academia and culture, then go to work on other countries. THAT is what we can work on now and is much more important in maintaining that we can have what we now have let alone anything that comes along that's better.
You asked, and that's the answer. If we don't accomplish that then the rest is useless trivia.
What we need to work on now is getting rid of the anti gun political movement, eliminate gun laws up to and including the NFA, abolishing the anti gun policies of NY, NJ, MA, MD, CT, CA, and HI, eradicate its presence from academia and culture, then go to work on other countries. THAT is what we can work on now and is much more important in maintaining that we can have what we now have let alone anything that comes along that's better.
You asked, and that's the answer. If we don't accomplish that then the rest is useless trivia.
Yep, the days of the John Thompson "garage prototype" and Browning "workshop" gun are gone. Radical innovation doesn't always come from "the industry" as Stoner demonstrated.
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