Lee Collet Neck die and Lee FCD info.

[opngrnd]

After reading enough about these here on the forums and doing some Google searches, I picked up the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die and the Lee Factory Crimp Die some time ago. I was wondering if I could get advice from a few of you more experienced folks before I start my next batch of brass prep.

Neck Sizing Die:
1-Do you guy tend to follow the instructions to a "T" concerning use? For example, is no lube needed as per the instruction's claim, or have you found it to work better with lube.
2-Is there any way to properly measure the neck tension after sizing, or do you just go by feel when seating bullets?
3-Do you neck size before or after trimming?
4-Though I'm removing the Expander Ball from my Small Base Die, do most of you still de-prime when you size the brass, or let the Neck Sizing die do that for you?

Factory Crimp Die:
1-Does the setting in the instructions count as a heavy, medium, or light crimp?
2-As a rule, do you crimp the same amount for bullets with and without a cannelure?

As of now, I'm planning on doing it like this:
1.Tumble fired brass
2.Lube, Size/De-prime
3.Check Length against Case Gage (Trim if needed)
4.Tumble again to remove Lube
5.Neck Size
6.Prime
7.Powder
8.Seat Bullet
9.Crimp

I'm going to do a few small batches in my favorite loadings per the instructions as a baseline, but anything you can add to help would be much appreciated. This forum has been a wealth of information for me and has led me to some pretty good loadings so far. Thanks in advance.

(For the record, I'm loading on a single stage press.)

[Onyx Z]

I crimp my match ammo with a VERY light crimp using the Lee FCD. It's so light you can barely see the crimp.

Now, if I'm loading bulk 55gr, I use a little more crimp, but still not the max. It will deform the bullet pretty bad. If you have some non-cannelure bullets, test it out. It's surprising how little of a crimp can deform the bullet.

[markm]

Absolutely no lube is needed for the Collet neck sizing die. There's no surfaces that would benefit from lube....

I'm a little concerned with your sizing die approach. If you're using a sizing die with the expander ball removed, you might have a pretty tight neck going into the Collet neck die. Optimally, you'd wand a body die only. With a regular sizing die with the expander removed, you may be squeezing the necks down too much and opening them back up when the collet die mandrel inserts. (unnecessary work hardening).

I agree with Onyx on the FCD... just enough that you can barely see the marking on the neck. I use one setting for ALL ammo however.

[Steel head]

I agree with Mark.
A body die is what you want to be using.
Using a regular die even with the expander removed negates what your trying to do with the collet.

I use a Redding body die with a lee collet die for 223 and 260.
Body dies are pretty reasonable in cost and the Redding and Forster dies are easy to work with especially with tight chambers.

I've found setting up the collet die as per Lee's instructions works PERFECTY and don't deviate.

The collet die can be a bit temperamental, some just go and go and others have to be coddled.
I try to clean and lube them before they get grumpy and then no issues seem to pop up.

[markm]

Yep. The area where lube can help with the collet die is IN the die, not on the brass. I take all mine apart and smooth the arc on the collet shoulders with 440 an then grease those surfaces. This is a process I picked up by searching the web. If the collets lock up it can rip the neck of a piece of brass.

When the die is set up right, it'll feel like a slight "cam over" on the press.

[opngrnd]

Thanks for the input. Do you guys recommend the standard Redding Body die or the small base one? I run most of my ammo through ARs.

I hadn't thought about the effect on the case neck without the expander ball since I was past that stage already. All 1600ish 223 cases I have had already went through the RCBS Small Base die with the expander ball still in place when I ordered the Lee dies.

Yesterday I took 100 cases, used the Lee Neck die per the instructions, and made batches of 20 per in Hornady 55 gr FMJBT, 55 gr VMAX, 55 gr VMAX w/cannelure, 69 gr SMK, and 77 gr SMK. (I noticed that the neck tension seemed pretty consistent when seating the bullets. With just the RCBS die I was using previously, every so often I would get a case with very light neck tension.) Then I used the FCD per the instructions, but half the time I could barely see a mark at all. I think I'll make a dummy round or two and pull the bullet to see how much crimp I'm actually getting next time. I'll also have to shoot what I made and see how it looks on paper.

[Steel head]

I use the standard body die not he SB version

[markm]

Thanks for the input. Do you guys recommend the standard Redding Body die or the small base one? I run most of my ammo through ARs.


To be honest... my mind was in bolt gun ammo mode. For .223, I use a full length sizing die with the expander removed, then a neck expander RCBS die, and finish with a light LEE Factory Crimp.

I use the body die/Collet neck combo for .308/7mag/300 Win Mag.

[bigedp51]

taekwondopreacher

Your shooting a AR15 with a chamber .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI .223 chamber with longer headspace settings. On top of this your are full length resizing meaning the body and neck of the case never touch the chamber walls. Your case is supported in the rear by the bolt face and by the bullet in the chamber throat.

Below the rear of the case is supported by the bolt face

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/bolt_face_zps0b7f828d.jpg

Below the front of the cartridge is supported by the bullet in the chamber throat and the neck of the case will have approximately .003 neck clearance on either side of the neck.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/chamber-neck-diagram-with-cartridge2x_zps7395df40.jpg

A full length resized cartridge case is not centered in the throat by the neck or body of the case because of chamber clearance and the neck has minimal centering effect when the bullet is centered in the throat. Meaning full length resizing reduces the effects of neck runout and will center the bullet with a reasonable amount of runout. The military has said that anything under .003 runout will not effect accuracy in a normal military chamber. ;)

Therefore your better off just using a standard full length resizing die and making sure your expander ball is centered in the die and forget the Lee collet die for reloading ammo in your AR 15 rifle. With the exception of custom barreled match chambered rifles, and remember the only part of the full length cartridge case the touches the chamber is the shoulder when the firing pin hits the primer and drives the case forward.

So stop playing around with the Lee collet die and worrying about minimal neck runout in a military chamber. (This ain't Benchrest Central) :stop:

Trust me the reason my Lee collet die isn't in the photo below is because a standard full length resizing die will give the best results without fiddling around with two dies. As a side note you would be better off with a runout gauge and a neck thickness gauge to find out "WHY" you have the runout in the first place.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg

[markm]

A collet die is indeed not optimal for Bulk AR loading. The collet die is a little too high maintenance for volume stuff. I get outstanding results without the collet die in .223.

In fact.... when I started loading .308 match ammo, I tried to rob the same train twice and use my .223 process for .308. That DID NOT translate at all. The collet die was priceless for that application.

[bigedp51]

The late Jim Hull of Sierra bullets testing lab and well known competitive shooter always full length resized his cases and jokingly made the following comment.

"I get my best accuracy when the cartridge case fits the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case"

Jim Hull didn't believe in neck sizing only to get the best accuracy because perfectly made brass is very hard to find. And full length resizing reduces any misalignment problems the case can cause with the bore.

[opngrnd]

Thank you all for the added imput. Other than making more accurate ammo, I wanted to make safer ammo as well. I had a bullet set back scare that had me questioning my ammo quality, even though it has always shot well in my rifles. I have had inconsistent neck tension a time or two, and the Lee die seems to have fixed this.
Beyond that, my Markm style 69 gr SMK load (using Rem 7 1/2primers since I had them on hand) printed a .604 inch group last Thursday from my first batch of ammo adding the Lee dies to the mix. I didn't know what to think when I saw that. :) My Hornady 55gr FMJ load printed under two inches at the samw distance(100 yards). I'll have to try adding the picture of the target later.

[opngrnd]

Having read some of the other threads, I'm going to try Dillon lube instead of Hornady and see if that doesn't help with the neck tension issues. I wonder is the quality of the lube isn't contributing to inconsistency of neck tension when using the sizing die w/ the expander ball.

[markm]

There's a few of us out of the closet FULL LENGTH sizers on accurate shooter.

As far as lube? There's nothing to be gained by using One Shot. Single worst product ever produced for hand loaders... but I'm not sure of the impact on neck tension as I don't use expander balls ever for anything.

[opngrnd]

I figure I better get back to my own thread for asking questions.

Back to the Collet Neck die-Is it too high maintenance in that it simply needs to be taken apart every 300-500 rounds and cleaned, or in that it won't hold up to large amounts, period? I usually load 300 rounds at a time on my single stage, and it won't bother me to have to clean the die in between batches. I can see why it'd be a no-go on a progressive if you were loading hundreds of rounds at a time.

As far as the RCBS Neck Expander die, does that simply open the neck up a little bit so that it'll accept the bullet?

I suppose I could use the Collet die for my 69 grain SMK's and the RCBS for the 55 grain blasting ammo.

I'm about to enter another long South Dakota winter, so it's not like I won't have the time for whatever makes the most sense.

[markm]

Here's what a lot of guys do to the LEE Collet neck sizer when they get it... They'll polish/smooth the shoulders with 400 grit and add a grease to those bearing surfaces to keep the collet jaws from binding/sticking/galling. The Lee dies are brilliant designs... but they're a $18 piece of gear.... so you're not getting the absolute finest materials. They require some periodic maintenance to keep them from jamming up, but the results are worth it for some applications... (low volume like what you're talking about)

The neck expander die is what I have to go to because I removed my expander ball. If I don't use the expander die, I get jacket shavings and probably introduce runout when seating because of excessive neck tension.

So yeah... in my process the expander die opens the neck back up to allow the bullet to be seated with good neck tension, but not TOO much neck tension.

Now if I got noticeably better results with the Collet die, I'd just buy 3 or 4 of them and rotate them in and out of production, but the neck expander die is giving me absolutely acceptable results.

[Steel head]

I don't polish the collet die but I do clean and inspect for burrs and lube before use.
I open it back up clean and lube every 300 or so rounds, it will go further but some preventive maintenance goes a LONG way to preventing problems.
I'd love to see Forster make one but for the price it's a good product.