View Full Version : Help with shooting 25 yard groups (aiming)
acaixguard
07-26-14, 23:22
Looking for some advice on this one. I have problems holding a consistent aim at 25 yards when I am testing for groups. At this point, I don't believe it to be an issue of snatching the trigger. I am getting to the point where I am pleased with how I generally shoot at 10-15 yards. While I'm not a GREAT shooter, I am decent enough to know when I snatch my shots or not.
Anyhow, my problem at 25 yards seems to be with aiming. I can generally get most shots in the black of a B-8 target at 25 yards if I do my part. However, I cannot get good consistent tight groups when I try to test for zero, even shooting off a rest. What I notice is, I lose the precise details of my front sight, and also my target. For example, let's say I am using a 6:00 hold on the black of a B-8 target. When trying to place the top of my front sight blade (aligned with the top of the rears of course) so that it just touches the bottom of 9 ring, the top of the front sight starts to get fuzzy to me, as if there's a thin layer of the top that is somewhat transparent, and I'm not sure if it's touching the bottom of the 9 ring or not. Furthermore, I can't clearly discern between the bottom of the 9 or 10 rings. Basically, I could be holding at the bottom of the 10 ring, or bottom of the 9 ring for all I know. Or even lower than that. What I think is the correct alignment varies from shot to shot. As a result, I have inconsistent fine aiming at this distance.
Even worse is when I am trying to group a tight group at 100 yards on my AR with fixed sights. Same issue with the front sight and target, and I'm not sure if I have my front post centered in the middle of the ghost ring rear.
Oh, and I do have 20/20 vision.
Hope my explanations made sense. Thanks in advance for any help!
Coal Dragger
07-27-14, 00:33
Your description sounds like you are having a hard time keeping focus on the front sight, which is more common as distance increases or the target becomes smaller. It is harder to index that crisp front sight on an indistinct target. That is one reason a lot of bullseye shooters that do most of their work at 50ft, 25 yards, and 50 yards set their pistol sights for a true six o clock hold on the black portion of the target. It's easier to index the front sight that way. Same for most serious NRA high power rifle shooters. This works better than any other method for targets of known size at known distances. Not so much for unknown distance or target sizes.
You may just have to force yourself through practice focussing on the front sight even when your eyes want to make quick transitions between target and front sight. When you notice this happening stop the shot process and start over again. Just like you would if you found yourself snatching the trigger or flinching.
^ +1 "Coal Dragger" nailed it.
An older bullseye shooter once told me, "It's all in your head, just focus" . . . One of the best words of advice I received when I was younger regarding distance. . . .Front sight distance never changes with any target distance, once you hold its all front sight + trigger control for accuracy
If the center of your actual target is equidistant from the top and bottom, and the left and right, then fold your target in half one way, unfold and fold in half the other way, unfold. This not only gives you a center represented on the target, but also gives you a "pathway" to get there.
The four fundamentals of markmanship are:
1. Foundation/Body Postion (how stable you can make your body.)
2. Sight Picture (making sure your sights line up the same each time you aim.)
3. Breathing (Natural Respitory Pause is fine but breathing out completely, before your shot, is better).
4. Trigger Control/Squeeze (Independent/Singular Squeeze, touch/press, etc.; making sure you have positive control of the trigger and that you don't hestantly "pull" or "jerk" the trigger.)
As we all learn marksmanship we start with these four fundamentals and as we become better with each, we "revisit" the others.
Your revisit sounds like the Second. (fitting isn't it?- 2nd Amnd)
When aquiring your Sight Picture, go back to Simple Simon but make sure you do it the same each time.- Left/Right then Up/Down OR Up/Down then Left/Right.
-Pick a side (Left/Right) or an edge (Up/Down); go to the center of the target on that plane (lt/rt, up/dn); hold that; then, go to the center of the other plane (up/dn, lt/rt).
Example:
I have a manilla piece of paper (no printed target), 8.5x11"
I fold it in half up/down, then I unfold it.
I fold it in half left/right, Then I unfold it.
Now I have a "cross" in the center.
I put the target at my desired distance.
When I aim at that target I start at the top edge of the paper and go down half-way.
Then I go to the left side and go right half-way.
Now I should be at center.
Now I squeeeeeeeeeze off the round,
When it goes "off" I take note of that mental picture (Natural Sight Picture).
Then on my consecutive rounds I do my BEST to reinvent that same mental picture.
BTW, Slay the Dragon at 25 before worrying about the Demon at 100. ;)
In other words:
Slow down.
Relax.
Appreciate the rise in ammo cost and.....
Squeeeeeeeeeze.
Each time.
Just for clarification...you are talking about shooting a handgun, right?
polydeuces
07-27-14, 08:35
In other words:
Slow down.
Relax.
Appreciate the rise in ammo cost and.....
Squeeeeeeeeeze.
Each time.
Contemplation of #3 might make steps 1 and 2 exceedingly hard to achieve.
It usually causes spikes in excessive high blood-pressure, heart palpitations, brings about accelerated breathing and all sorts of unholy thoughts, none of which may be conducive to attaining the serene zen-like state of mind one usually achieves when firing a pistol or rifle.
Speaking for myself of course.
Failure2Stop
07-27-14, 08:43
Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.
This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.
I have a hard time with distance and I'm always working on 8 inch bulls at 25. I'm a firearms instructor and excel in most areas but sight alignment at distance is my Achilles heel. Less than stellar LASIK left with me with dry eye and I have bad allergies. I have found that the only thing that helps is a skinny front sight. Practically speaking, shooting at speed is never an issue. If I'm shooting for groups the longer I focus the weaker my groups are.
acaixguard
07-27-14, 09:19
Thanks for all the suggestions. I never really thought of focusing properly as a learned skill in itself. I will definitely have to spend more time at the range practicing as a bullseye shooter would.
I'll definitely try the trick of using a higher contrast target too. I also have a feeling that maybe a squared aiming point may help me? I struggle with aligning the top of the squared front side blade to the bottom of a small circle.
Oh, and yes, I was talking about shooting a pistol at 25 yards. My 100 yard example was with an AR using irons. With a red dot, I don't really have this problem. I think it's because I can place a small dot on top of my target more easily (aligning the top dome of the dot onto the top of the bullseye for instance).
Thanks again!
Contemplation of #3 might make steps 1 and 2 exceedingly hard to achieve.
It usually causes spikes in excessive high blood-pressure, heart palpitations, brings about accelerated breathing and all sorts of unholy thoughts, none of which may be conducive to attaining the serene zen-like state of mind one usually achieves when firing a pistol or rifle.
Speaking for myself of course.
No shit. Roger that.
Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.
This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.
EffN Nice!
Dig this "I live in the really, real world" type of info.
Marksmanship just got better. ;)
...I'll definitely try the trick of using a higher contrast target too...
Our minds play tricks on us. Try this above, but rebut it with using same reticle/sight and same target color. I.E.- black-on black, red-on-red.
In this manner you have less chance to second guess yourself and can amazingly find a true center of target. And subsequint shots will be less affected by your mind "adjusting" your aim. Similar to, but not the same as an "open-center" reticle.
We naturally want to find center.
Exercise:
Turn your red dot off and aim quickly at a target. Then have a buddy turn the red dot on. You won't be fine-tuned but you will most likely be close to center of target. Whether you have a square box or round circle, your mind will look for center.
One range I go to constantly tries to give me a red target because I am using a black reticle. Their M.O. is to ask what type of reticle you are using as opposed to what target (color that is) you want. Fortunately for me I have an illuminated reticle (red) so I can work with whatever target they decide for me after a long conversation. Either way I will use black-on-black OR red-on-red.
Voodoo_Man
07-27-14, 11:13
Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.
This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.
Sounds like cheating.
Failure2Stop
07-27-14, 12:05
Our minds play tricks on us. Try this above, but rebut it with using same reticle/sight and same target color. I.E.- black-on black, red-on-red.
In this manner you have less chance to second guess yourself and can amazingly find a true center of target. And subsequint shots will be less affected by your mind "adjusting" your aim. Similar to, but not the same as an "open-center" reticle.
We naturally want to find center.
Exercise:
Turn your red dot off and aim quickly at a target. Then have a buddy turn the red dot on. You won't be fine-tuned but you will most likely be close to center of target. Whether you have a square box or round circle, your mind will look for center.
One range I go to constantly tries to give me a red target because I am using a black reticle. Their M.O. is to ask what type of reticle you are using as opposed to what target (color that is) you want. Fortunately for me I have an illuminated reticle (red) so I can work with whatever target they decide for me after a long conversation. Either way I will use black-on-black OR red-on-red.
We're talking pistol irons.
Try using a blank light colored target, ie, sheet of copy paper. You have no 'target' to distract your vision from the front sight. This is similar to what F2S recommended. Be interested to know your progress and hopeful solution.
Something that helped me... and I still do all the wrong things though.... is go to office supply and buy a pack of those red or yellow colored dots.. they are 3/4" dots i think. Stick one in the center of your B8. If you get the other alignment stuff going it draws you to a very small spot.
Part of my problem is, due to vision and focus, I can't tell if I am indeed in the middle and that little dot of color even if I totally cover it let's me know I'm in the right place. It doesn't cure the other mistakes but when you do the other stuff correctly it seems to pull things a bit closer together near the middle. So maybe you can figure what you are doing right, when it actually does go right for you. Maybe you will remember a mental picture of the whole process.
...and sometimes my double vision even get's both front sights on the colored dot!
Coal Dragger
07-27-14, 15:08
I have a hard time with distance and I'm always working on 8 inch bulls at 25. I'm a firearms instructor and excel in most areas but sight alignment at distance is my Achilles heel. Less than stellar LASIK left with me with dry eye and I have bad allergies. I have found that the only thing that helps is a skinny front sight. Practically speaking, shooting at speed is never an issue. If I'm shooting for groups the longer I focus the weaker my groups are.
This is another head game issue faced by serious bullseye shooters (I used to be serious enough about it to compete in college). Generally speaking the longer you hold the pistol out there and focus on the front sight the worse your shot will be past about the 3-5 second mark, your eyes will start to fatigue and you'll find yourself doing stupid shit like holding your breath and or not breathing smoothly. It will affect your visual acuity and therefore your results. Again as much as it sucks, once you notice this you will be best served (if you're on a one way range trying to make nice little groups) to stop, take a rest, and then start the shot process all over again with the goal of breaking your shot within 3-5 seconds of bringing the front sight into perfect focus. The other half of the equation is mental as well, and this accepting your natural arc of movement on the smaller at distance target and pressing though the trigger in a controlled manner and not trying to force the shot when you think you have a perfect sight picture.
On the plus side the payoff for all this tedious hard work and concentration will be the ability to make bullets hit targets at ranges you may have previously had trouble with, and like any other practiced skill it becomes easier with practice to get that good front sight focus, accept your arc of movement, and consistently break the shot in a short period of time before your eyes fatigue. Plus a lot of off hand accuracy work will drastically improve your natural arc of movement. At one point I was actually more accurate shooting one handed than shooting with both hands believe it or not. Through a lot of practice my dominant hand, arm, and shoulder got to the point where my arc of movement on the right side was so small that introducing my left hand actually decreased accuracy in slow fire. Plus shooting one handed bladed to the target added more length to my effective sight radius by moving the gun farther away since my shoulder added distance to the sights.
Maybe I'm way off the mark here, forgive me if I am - OP you do understand don't you that your eye(s) can not precisely focus on 2 objects (target and front sight) at the same time, don't you?
The front sight must be sharp and clear for any precise degree of accuracy. At 25 yards the B-8 bull will be a little blurry - it should be. I wasn't the best bullseye shooter in the world, but I have won a couple of matches. On the B-8 using open sights the front sight should be gently moving in the middle of the black blur - I never used 6 o'clock hold.
This is my opinion - if you are shooting for groups with open sights - which you are - you do not want anything on the target that will draw your attention to the target from the front sight.
I also warm up by shooting blank (white) targets at 50 yards - the white target drill is what really showed me what proper sight picture should be - front sight sharp and clear.
'You'll win the battle, you'll win the fight, if you keep your eye on your front sight.'
Regarding open sights on your AR:
In a proper firing position your eye should be directly in line with the center of the rear sight aperture.
When the eye looks through the aperture and focuses on the front sight post, it (the eye) naturally centers it in the aperture providing accurate sight alignment. If you are focusing on the front sight the aperture should be fuzzy, if you are conscious of the aperture at all. This is where the term 'ghost ring' comes from.
Place the tip of the front sight post on the aiming point with the eye focused on the tip of the front sight post. The target appears blurry and the front sight post should be seen clearly.
When you focus on the front sight and not the target, any aiming error is minor and reflects only as much as you error in determining the target center. A greater aiming error results if the front sight post is blurry due to focusing on the target.
Remember when using an aperture sight, focusing on the tip of the front sight post helps you maintain proper sight alignment because of your eye's ability to precisely center the front sight in the circle of the aperture.
Coal Dragger gave you a lot of wisdom. I have a few tidbits to add:
1) Hard focus on the front sight is not enough. Hard focus on the top edge, dead center is what you want.
2) It is very hard to unravel the interaction between sight picture, trigger control, and the head games your mind invents. What I mean by this is, as Coal Dragger alluded to, you can chase or rush the shot when you think you see the perfect sight picture, or when you sense that you have an exceptionally steady moment in your hold. You won't even know you're doing it other than the fact that you're having a "bad day".
3) When I started out I really worked on sight picture. After a bit that part became more automatic and I could put about 80% of my attention into trigger control. Real accuracy improvements came from mastering trigger control and learning to accept my natural sight picture wobble.
What convinced me on #2 was an experience I had shooting at 25 yd for groups one day. A really thick bank of fog rolled in - pea soup thick. I couldn't see the target other than the orange dot in the center just barely. I figured oh well, mentally sort of relaxed and just slowfired the mag at the dot with easy trigger pulls while holding alignment. Probably shot the whole mag in 20 seconds or so. I ended up with one of the tightest groups I've ever shot.
Had the same thing happen when shooting in a wooded remote location in Alaska. Had a target up on a stump, it fell and slipped down behind some foliage. I shot through the leaves at the barely visible orange spec. Group was silly tight.
The visual/motor control/feedback loop between your eyes and hands is hard to master. Very hard.
Once in an LAV class he had us intentionally wobble our sights in a 1" circle around the bull, pulling the trigger as best we could while wobbling. Groups were still tight. It is very hard to learn to accept your wobble and just shoot.
Coal Dragger
07-28-14, 00:15
Coal Dragger gave you a lot of wisdom. I have a few tidbits to add:
1) Hard focus on the front sight is not enough. Hard focus on the top edge, dead center is what you want.
2) It is very hard to unravel the interaction between sight picture, trigger control, and the head games your mind invents. What I mean by this is, as Coal Dragger alluded to, you can chase or rush the shot when you think you see the perfect sight picture, or when you sense that you have an exceptionally steady moment in your hold. You won't even know you're doing it other than the fact that you're having a "bad day".
3) When I started out I really worked on sight picture. After a bit that part became more automatic and I could put about 80% of my attention into trigger control. Real accuracy improvements came from mastering trigger control and learning to accept my natural sight picture wobble.
What convinced me on #2 was an experience I had shooting at 25 yd for groups one day. A really thick bank of fog rolled in - pea soup thick. I couldn't see the target other than the orange dot in the center just barely. I figured oh well, mentally sort of relaxed and just slowfired the mag at the dot with easy trigger pulls while holding alignment. Probably shot the whole mag in 20 seconds or so. I ended up with one of the tightest groups I've ever shot.
Had the same thing happen when shooting in a wooded remote location in Alaska. Had a target up on a stump, it fell and slipped down behind some foliage. I shot through the leaves at the barely visible orange spec. Group was silly tight.
The visual/motor control/feedback loop between your eyes and hands is hard to master. Very hard.
Once in an LAV class he had us intentionally wobble our sights in a 1" circle around the bull, pulling the trigger as best we could while wobbling. Groups were still tight. It is very hard to learn to accept your wobble and just shoot.
On your point #2 my pistol team coach called this phenomenon "chasing the bullseye" you could seemingly shoot everything but the center of the target doing this. I've had targets where I made a near perfect circle of the 10 ring or "x" ring with my shots and maybe only occasionally cut the ring with a bullet but never had one go into the ring dead center. Very frustrating.
You're also absolutely right about trigger control being the key, some of my best targets ever are the result of relaxing a bit and just working the trigger smoothly while all but ignoring my sight picture other than making sure the front top of the front sight is crisp and more or less somewhere on the target.
We're talking pistol irons.
It was just an example to state that we naturally want to find center but tend to "overthink" it.
I do the same with rifle irons and pistol irons.
Example:
If I shoot a white silhouette with a small black center I tend to "overthink" staying in that small circle in the center.
Whereas if I shoot an all black silhouette I don't "overthink" it and just cut the target in half both ways ending up with better groups.
Use a 3x5 card, oriented vertically, placed in the center of a B8.
Use a 6:00 hold on the 3x5.
This provides a high contrast aiming point while focusing on the front sight. The 3" bottom edge should be very close to the width of the front sight at 25, which makes sight picture easier.
Thanks for the tip Jack.
Probably not the best way but I use targets like this when I'm checking to see if new sights or guns are close to poa/poi.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg68/mstarmer/NewXDMc_25yrds.jpg (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/mstarmer/media/NewXDMc_25yrds.jpg.html)
Coal Dragger
09-03-14, 20:18
I can't think of a better target than a bullseye target for confirming iron sight zero on a handgun. While a lot of shooters seem content with mediocre accuracy and POA/POI I'm pretty picky about it. I always make sure a pistol can shoot acceptably on a bullseye target before I even bother with anything else. If a pistol isn't both accurate and reliable I don't have a lot of use for it.
Howdy,
There's a lot of good advice in this thread.
When shooting a handgun or an iron sighted longgun there's three things to remember to get a small/consistant group size:
1.) Front sight
2.) Front sight
3.) Front sight
Of course there's trigger control, stance, breathing, etc. but your front sight is the most important.
OP, since you have 20/20 vision, use a white target (printer paper ) and a 1/2" dot that is a different color than your front sight, use a 6:00 hold, focus on the front sight, and with the proper grip, stance and trigger pull you will have a very small group size.
Paul
Thanks for all the suggestions. I never really thought of focusing properly as a learned skill in itself. I will definitely have to spend more time at the range practicing as a bullseye shooter would.
I'll definitely try the trick of using a higher contrast target too. I also have a feeling that maybe a squared aiming point may help me? I struggle with aligning the top of the squared front side blade to the bottom of a small circle.
Oh, and yes, I was talking about shooting a pistol at 25 yards. My 100 yard example was with an AR using irons. With a red dot, I don't really have this problem. I think it's because I can place a small dot on top of my target more easily (aligning the top dome of the dot onto the top of the bullseye for instance).
Thanks again!
Sights matter at this distance. A large sight picture (space between the front sight and rear notch) matters.
Make sure to be totally relaxed. Take a breath between each shot and bring the gun into your chest for a short rest. Stand exactly square to the target with your arms having some bend in them. Hold the gun LIGHTLY in your hand.
Good luck!
C4
Howdy,
There's a lot of good advice in this thread.
When shooting a handgun or an iron sighted longgun there's three things to remember to get a small/consistant group size:
1.) Front sight
2.) Front sight
3.) Front sight
Of course there's trigger control, stance, breathing, etc. but your front sight is the most important.
OP, since you have 20/20 vision, use a white target (printer paper ) and a 1/2" dot that is a different color than your front sight, use a 6:00 hold, focus on the front sight, and with the proper grip, stance and trigger pull you will have a very small group size.
Paul
There has been a lot of discussion about this in the training world. The old world pushed the front sight idea, but ignored the trigger press. IMHO, trigger press is way more important than having your sight directly centered when you pull the trigger.
I routinely mis-align my sights (on purpose), but pull the trigger straight to the rear. I still get black hits on the b8 target.
YMMV.
C4
teutonicpolymer
09-05-14, 09:35
something that helped my groups at 25+ yards go from okay to pretty good even off hand is not concentrating on single points like dots which you might not always have, but instead aligning the sight picture to larger things like say the outline of the target frame or something
AND THAT'S WHY THEY MAKE SCOPES! But seriously, Your hitting black - what is your definition of good consistent groups?
Agree with most, also sounds like you have a lot going on in your head, focusing on multiple points, front sight, rear sight, target location and relation of all when you squeeze the trigger, and the biggest issue is you are not really sure you are properly lined up on target so you are trying to get everything perfect, then second guessing things.
Sounds like you have been shooting a while and know when you "snatch a shot" so try sighting as best you can, then focus on one aspect at a time (front sight location on target... front sight height in relation to rear/center of peep.... front sight in relation between rear/center of peep) fire several shots and mark your groups with a notation of your sight picture. Hopefully this will give you an idea when you are finished as to what you thought you saw and what the point of impact was with your sight picture. You can adjust after that.
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