View Full Version : USG is irretrievably broken... 1985 Land Rover seized for violation of Clean Air Act
How many federal agents does it take to seize a Land Rover? A better question is are you phucking serious? Why do local LE (officers/agencies) continue to participate in this type of nonsense?
http://youtu.be/j_kxs0VHxvA
I saw this posted but didn't click on it thinking.... no way... This is too dumb even for Hussein's tyranny.
These goofballs are going to mess with the wrong dude someday, and have a mess on their hands.
ColtSeavers
08-04-14, 10:33
Wow. I really don't know what else to say. Just as dumbfounded as the owner.
Unbelievable! Just out of curiosity isn't that warrant invalid since they did not have the actual owners name on it? She said that the name on the warrant was from 4 owners ago. Wouldnt the info have to be correct to make the warrant valid?
Tax dollars well spent on that endeavor......... I can breathe easier now......not really.
platoonDaddy
08-04-14, 11:18
Dang, L-N-L
Un-frickin' believable. Continuing our rapid spiral downward! :mad:
ramairthree
08-04-14, 11:39
Sadly,
this is not an isolated incident.
They have gone full retard on several from a range of years.
So the government wants a shit ton of foreign people here illegally,
using up free medical care, resources, overwhelming schools, spreading TB, and in general costing the taxpayer a bunch of money not even counting how many of them are criminals.
But they will waste resources and send armed people to seize foreign vehicles,
when their owners are paying taxes and fees on them, gas taxes, buying parts, spending money on them, etc. and otherwise being productive with them- turning them into criminals for owning a hobby/fun extra vehicle.
I spend enough at the local Advance Auto to probably fund a full time employee for several months of the year,
a local garage to fund a full time employee for a couple months,
gainfully support several online vendors,
a local tire shop,
rescued on classic vehicle from a junk yard,
saved another from being scrapped,
and another from being parted out.
Multiply that by tens of thousands vintage vehicle enthusiasts and it is a pretty big impact.
I have probably done more to keep stuff out of dumps and turned into pollution than the whole EPA itself.
Senator Paul just introduced the FAIR Act. (http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1204)
Sen. Rand Paul yesterday introduced S. 2644, the FAIR (Fifth Amendment Integrity Restoration) Act, which would protect the rights of citizens and restore the Fifth Amendment's role in seizing property without due process of law. Under current law, law enforcement agencies may take property suspected of involvement in crime without ever charging, let alone convicting, the property owner. In addition, state agencies routinely use federal asset forfeiture laws; ignoring state regulations to confiscate and receive financial proceeds from forfeited property.
The FAIR Act would change federal law and protect the rights of property owners by requiring that the government prove its case with clear and convincing evidence before forfeiting seized property. State law enforcement agencies will have to abide by state law when forfeiting seized property. Finally, the legislation would remove the profit incentive for forfeiture by redirecting forfeitures assets from the Attorney General's Asset Forfeiture Fund to the Treasury's General Fund.
"The federal government has made it far too easy for government agencies to take and profit from the property of those who have not been convicted of a crime. The FAIR Act will ensure that government agencies no longer profit from taking the property of U.S. citizens without due process, while maintaining the ability of courts to order the surrender of proceeds of crime," Sen. Paul said
The bigger issue for me is the local agencies that participate in this tripe. I expect this kind of nonsense from the federal agencies. I keep hoping for the day when a local chief or sheriff tells the feds to pound sand...
I saw this posted but didn't click on it thinking.... no way... This is too dumb even for Hussein's tyranny.
These goofballs are going to mess with the wrong dude someday, and have a mess on their hands.
Hence the need for battalion sized units with full air support when raiding the local day care center....
Senator Paul just introduced the FAIR Act. (http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1204)
Expect everyone from Holder to the podunk PD Chiefs along state highways to scream bloody murder that this is the death knell of law enforcement as we know it, while branding Paul as anti-LE. :rolleyes:
Expect everyone from Holder to the podunk PD Chiefs along state highways to scream bloody murder that this is the death knell of law enforcement as we know it, while branding Paul as anti-LE. :rolleyes:
Asset forfeiture is a multibillion dollar scam perpetuated by the government.
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/DEA-asset-forfeiture-patch.jpg
These goofballs are going to mess with the wrong dude someday, and have a mess on their hands.
Ruby ridge?
When it happens, the man's name will be destroyed (not counting losing his life) and his whole family eviscerated and the media will turn everything they've done in the last ten years into some evil plot, simmering below the surface, that just happened to surface the day those poor federal agents politely knocked on the door to sieze his private property. You know, in order to protect the lungs of innocent people. :confused:
I'm not the first to say it, but how in the hell do they get local agencies to coordinate with this shit?
Unbelievable! Just out of curiosity isn't that warrant invalid since they did not have the actual owners name on it? She said that the name on the warrant was from 4 owners ago. Wouldnt the info have to be correct to make the warrant valid?That was my thoughts, the second I saw it was not my name on warrant......
If I'm not mistaken, it has something to do with illegal importation of the vehicles. People were changing the VIN numbers to get them into the country.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/44/4476.asp
Doesn't excuse the way they were confiscated. I like this part: "The owners were only given until June 23 to file a formal contest to the seizures, which they could not have done because the court did not unseal the case until July 16." Hey, one day we'll just get used to it, right?
Asset forfeiture is a multibillion dollar scam perpetuated by the government.
http://www.policestateusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/DEA-asset-forfeiture-patch.jpg
I don't so much have a problem with the siezure of property that was bought with ill gotten money from people involved in criminal enterprises such as drug dealers, gangsters, wanna be good fellas, etc. They don't pay taxes on that money like you or I so **** 'em.
However this incident seems to be total bullshit from the roports I've seen so far.
TriviaMonster
08-05-14, 10:09
That Defender is Epic. Would love to own it.
I'm expecting confiscation of vehicles not compliant with efficiency standards in the not too distant future. Cheaper than paying citizens to crush them. I suppose my 13 mpg Land Cruiser would be allowed with a four cyl transplant and top speed of 45 in as many seconds.
That Defender is Epic. Would love to own it.
Agreed, definetly a sweet rig.
Belmont31R
08-05-14, 11:27
I don't so much have a problem with the siezure of property that was bought with ill gotten money from people involved in criminal enterprises such as drug dealers, gangsters, wanna be good fellas, etc. They don't pay taxes on that money like you or I so **** 'em.
However this incident seems to be total bullshit from the roports I've seen so far.
They have a way to seize stuff. Get a court order with due process. But people used the WOD to come up with laws that allow them to seize property at will and they never have to go through a court. It's a big money maker for some places and used to extort people. Like anything the power/authority gets abused but people excuse it away by saying it just applies to criminals. It doesn't.
In honor of this incident I'll be attending a large multi-engine tractor pull event here in the near future. Nothing screams death to the environment like 6 blown big blocks or quad turbo diesels.
They have a way to seize stuff. Get a court order with due process. But people used the WOD to come up with laws that allow them to seize property at will and they never have to go through a court. It's a big money maker for some places and used to extort people. Like anything the power/authority gets abused but people excuse it away by saying it just applies to criminals. It doesn't.
I'm not saying it isn't misused. However, when someone gets stopped for speeding in their Lambo and they consent to a search of the vehicle and have a couple of kilos of cocaine and a bag full of cash, well then too f'in bad.
Yes the EPA/DHS were very heavy handed in their response to this when they simply could have had the owner get proof the vehicle was in compliance with emmisions laws and let her keep her property. Of course they probably would have said it doesn't meet some saftey standard and siezed it anyway. Also europe is pretty stringent when it comes to vehicle emmissions so I don't see how the vehicle in question didn't pass muster here.
I don't so much have a problem with the siezure of property that was bought with ill gotten money from people involved in criminal enterprises such as drug dealers, gangsters, wanna be good fellas, etc. They don't pay taxes on that money like you or I so **** 'em.
However this incident seems to be total bullshit from the roports I've seen so far.
I don't disagree with you but there is a huge list of people who aren't drug dealers, there is no proof of a crime, and yet they're money and property is still confiscated by the police. Where is due process?
I'm not saying it isn't misused. However, when someone gets stopped for speeding in their Lambo and they consent to a search of the vehicle and have a couple of kilos of cocaine and a bag full of cash, well then too f'in bad.
The problem is they stop people with cash, and NO cocaine or any other drugs, and confiscate the money because some dumb**** assumes and falsely accuses the person of being involved in drugs or other illegal activity.
The bigger issue for me is the local agencies that participate in this tripe. I expect this kind of nonsense from the federal agencies. I keep hoping for the day when a local chief or sheriff tells the feds to pound sand...
That's never going to happen.
SomeOtherGuy
08-05-14, 12:35
I like this part: "The owners were only given until June 23 to file a formal contest to the seizures, which they could not have done because the court did not unseal the case until July 16." Hey, one day we'll just get used to it, right?
Pretty much used to it already in this sort of thing. 50 years from now someone will write a book about this era, titled "They Thought They Were Free (redux): The United States in the War On Drugs, Terrorism and Everything Else Era."
The problem is they stop people with cash, and NO cocaine or any other drugs, and confiscate the money because some dumb**** assumes and falsely accuses the person of being involved in drugs or other illegal activity.
I agree, that is total bullshit. You should be able to walk around with as much currency as you wish with out being suspected of misdeeds. But remember, those FRN's aren't yours, you merely get the privledge of using them for all debts public and private bestowed upon you by the FED. FRN's are federal property.
I agree, that is total bullshit. You should be able to walk around with as much currency as you wish with out being suspected of misdeeds. But remember, those FRN's aren't yours, you merely get the privledge of using them for all debts public and private bestowed upon you by the FED. FRN's are federal property.
Good point and something I hadn't considered.
When I'm not doing ranch work, my hobby is restoring vintage Land Rovers. I have a 1993 Defender 90 and a 1994 Discovery 5-Speed. I really enjoy working on the old Series III vehicles. To import a vintage Land Rover Defender County like was shown in the video, it has to be 25 years or older due to air bag requirements, etc. Some of these Landys sold on eBay are from reputable dealers and some are sold by shops that build them from used parts. No matter, a 1985 Defender would be legal to bring into the States unless it arrived earlier than the 25 year requirement. Despite that, it's an outrage to send in tactical DHS to confiscate the vehicle.
Seems like more and more DHS is behind all kinds of mischief; TSA abuses, Border Patrol harassment of citizens inside our border, etc. At least we are getting an idea now as to which government Agency we need to focus our attention on.
This has more to do with swapped vin plates and forgery. People were importing newer Defenders and slapping old vin plates on them so they could get around import rules....
Stupid? Yes.
Moose-Knuckle
08-05-14, 17:03
What is the carbon emission on all those DHS MRAPs?
What is the carbon emission on all those DHS MRAPs?
I'll take Exempt for five hundred Alex...
SomeOtherGuy
08-05-14, 20:09
What is the carbon emission on all those DHS MRAPs?
Nunya bizness, because terrorism. And Obama. Go home peasant and wait for your scan.
/sarc
Senator Paul just introduced the FAIR Act. (http://www.paul.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1204)
I'm not sure I understand the necessity of this proposal. I can't speak for DHS, but we have 2 mechanisms for seizing money, cars, property, etc. One is administratively and the other criminally (where the items are indicted by a grand jury). In both cases we have laws and policies that restrict the process as safeguards. I've even seen items returned to family members when its their only car, or has sentimental value.
I think Sen Paul's agenda is causing him to do like many a politician and pass redundant legislation so he can pat himself on the back.
I'm not sure I understand the necessity of this proposal. I can't speak for DHS, but we have 2 mechanisms for seizing money, cars, property, etc. One is administratively and the other criminally (where the items are indicted by a grand jury). In both cases we have laws and policies that restrict the process as safeguards. I've even seen items returned to family members when its their only car, or has sentimental value.
I think Sen Paul's agenda is causing him to do like many a politician and pass redundant legislation so he can pat himself on the back.
I don't know all the details but I think these cases in Nevada serve as good examples (http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/03/18/a-driver-had-50000-seized-by-a-nevada-cop-but-wasnt-charged-with-a-crime-now-hes-getting-his-money-back/):
After Tan Nguyen was pulled over for driving three miles above the speed limit, he had $50,000 confiscated by a Nevada deputy. According to Nguyen, that money was casino winnings. As reported last week at Forbes, Nguyen “was not arrested or charged with a crime—not even a traffic citation.”
He filed a lawsuit in federal court, arguing his civil rights were violated by an “unconstitutional search and seizure.” In that lawsuit, Nguyen claimed Deputy Lee Dove, who had pulled him over for speeding, threatened to seize and tow his car unless he “got in his car and drove off and forgot this ever happened.”
Almost three months later, Ken Smith was also pulled over for speeding. During the stop, Deputy Dove performed a warrant check and found a warrant for a Ken Smith. On that basis, Dove detained Smith. But according to a lawsuit filed by Smith, the Ken Smith on the warrant had a different birthday and was black. The pulled-over Smith was white. As the lawsuit puts it, Smith “should have been cited for speeding and let go, if there was probable cause for speeding violations.”
Instead, Smith was “unarrested” and allowed to leave with his car if he signed a waiver to surrender $13,800 in cash he had in the vehicle. The Humboldt County Sheriff’s office also seized a .40 caliber Ruger handgun from Smith, though Smith claimed he did not waive his right to that firearm.
I'm not sure I understand the necessity of this proposal. I can't speak for DHS, but we have 2 mechanisms for seizing money, cars, property, etc. One is administratively and the other criminally (where the items are indicted by a grand jury). In both cases we have laws and policies that restrict the process as safeguards. I've even seen items returned to family members when its their only car, or has sentimental value.
I think Sen Paul's agenda is causing him to do like many a politician and pass redundant legislation so he can pat himself on the back.
Nope, not buying it. Too many anecdotal cases where no person is indicted and yet the money is gone. That's outright theft. Indicting cash money? WTF IS THAT??? :nono:
Belmont31R
08-05-14, 23:33
There's a ton of examples of improper seizure (especially cash) where there's zero evidence of the property being connected to a crime. Some states or departments may have stricter rules regarding that process but there's certainly no national protections in place or what should be standards. This is why due process needs to be upheld here and not thrown in the scrap heap because 'drug dealers and criminals!' Due process and other safeguards allow LE and gov to do its job while giving everyone else a minimum of protection against abuse. Civil asset forfeiture basically gives shady departments and towns a very easy avenue of abuse while giving the BOR a big FU. There's really no reason that I can ascertain why this thing even exists given that a method to do the same thing towards criminals already exists and has since our founding.
I don't know all the details but I think these cases in Nevada serve as good examples (http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/03/18/a-driver-had-50000-seized-by-a-nevada-cop-but-wasnt-charged-with-a-crime-now-hes-getting-his-money-back/):
I just Googled "Deputy Lee Dove." Jeeezuus...please tell me that this guy is no longer wearing a badge.
Belmont31R
08-05-14, 23:50
I just Googled "Deputy Lee Dove." Jeeezuus...please tell me that this guy is no longer wearing a badge.
There's another one in Texas. The ACLU is on him. He was hired as an interdiction specialists and has earned his bum**** town over a million dollars.
Just google ACLU Tenaha. Makes me sick.
There's another one in Texas. The ACLU is on him. He was hired as an interdiction specialists and has earned his bum**** town over a million dollars.
Just google ACLU Tenaha. Makes me sick.
Wow. After just a brief glance, I got the feeling that it should be investigated by the Texas CID and FBI as a criminal matter.
Belmont31R
08-06-14, 00:10
This has more to do with swapped vin plates and forgery. People were importing newer Defenders and slapping old vin plates on them so they could get around import rules....
Stupid? Yes.
The U.S. has lame automotive rules. I don't blame people for getting around our stupid laws. There are plenty of safe cars around the world that we can't get because of some dumb rule or another.
I've never understood our country's fascination with outlawing vehicles every other country in the world has. It's even worse in places like Cali. When I was in the mil and on leave I registered a bike there. Couple months later I got a check and a letter saying it was a 49 state bike and didn't meet CA emissions. The bike had already been shipped and received to me in Germany. I had to wait til I got sent back to the U.S. to get a title and registered. Bike gets 50mpg and didn't meet their standards. Our rules here are stupid and the worst in the world.
I just Googled "Deputy Lee Dove." Jeeezuus...please tell me that this guy is no longer wearing a badge.
Pretty sure he still is... I'll leave it at that.
If anyone's interested in the case where he stole $50,000 under color of law the dash cam video is on Youtube and several other sites. Google-Fu and it pops right up.
Ruby ridge?
When it happens, the man's name will be destroyed (not counting losing his life) and his whole family eviscerated and the media will turn everything they've done in the last ten years into some evil plot, simmering below the surface, that just happened to surface the day those poor federal agents politely knocked on the door to sieze his private property. You know, in order to protect the lungs of innocent people. :confused:
I'm not the first to say it, but how in the hell do they get local agencies to coordinate with this shit?
They pay them....
ClearedHot
08-06-14, 04:05
The U.S. has lame automotive rules. I don't blame people for getting around our stupid laws. There are plenty of safe cars around the world that we can't get because of some dumb rule or another.
I've never understood our country's fascination with outlawing vehicles every other country in the world has. It's even worse in places like Cali. When I was in the mil and on leave I registered a bike there. Couple months later I got a check and a letter saying it was a 49 state bike and didn't meet CA emissions. The bike had already been shipped and received to me in Germany. I had to wait til I got sent back to the U.S. to get a title and registered. Bike gets 50mpg and didn't meet their standards. Our rules here are stupid and the worst in the world.
^This. We definitely have some of the most asinine rules regarding vehicle importation out of any country in the world. Regarding CA emissions, you can thank the useless bureaucracy known as CARB for creating a litany of moronic regulations. With each passing year, they make the emissions requirements more and more stringent.
The Land Rover that the lady owned is one of the many grey market cars that DHS has targeted for seizure in recent years. They had a hard on for Skyline GTR's for quite some time. Sometimes they'll send letters like this one if you have a car they're interested in.
http://i.imgur.com/5tmO28G.jpg
You would think they had more important things to waste resources on than cars.
These goofballs are going to mess with the wrong dude someday, and have a mess on their hands.
Indeed... I love my solid roller, un-catted WS6. I don't think I would let it go to the feds as easily as that woman did with her LR.
^This. We definitely have some of the most asinine rules regarding vehicle importation out of any country in the world. Regarding CA emissions, you can thank the useless bureaucracy known as CARB for creating a litany of moronic regulations. With each passing year, they make the emissions requirements more and more stringent.
The Land Rover that the lady owned is one of the many grey market cars that DHS has targeted for seizure in recent years. They had a hard on for Skyline GTR's for quite some time. Sometimes they'll send letters like this one if you have a car they're interested in.
http://i.imgur.com/5tmO28G.jpg
You would think they had more important things to waste resources on than cars.
The Skyline thing is a bit different. For a while there were a bunch of companies who claimed to legally import them, convert them to US Highway standards and so on. Unfortunately for many of those there was only one company who was officially allowed by the NHTSA to make the conversions because they crashed the required number of R33s. Consequently, there are no "legal" R32's or 33's. Lots of people had their SKylines taken away of had to take them off the road. A lot were also crushed by customs after being caught at the ports.
Good article about it here: http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/the-facts-about-nissan-skyline-importation-into-the-united-states-1.html
brickboy240
08-06-14, 10:29
The EPA emissions and importation laws make no sense at all.
I would LOVE to import a diesel Toyota Hi-Lux crew cab 4wd pickup. The damn thing gets 28-30 mpg. Tons better than any Tacoma or Tundra.
However...the EPA will not allow the diesel Hi-Lux in the country. Their excuse? Emissions!
WHF? The Hi-Lux gets TWICE the mileage of the Tundra.
Don't they want us to use less fuel? Well...hello...how about letting in the 28mpg truck and doing away with the 12mpg ones?
Again...makes no sense at all.
Don't tell me the 28mpg Hi-Lux would not sell in America.
-brickboy240
Much as I love my Land Cruiser, it would be on the market the day that Hi-Lux became available.
The EPA emissions and importation laws make no sense at all.
I would LOVE to import a diesel Toyota Hi-Lux crew cab 4wd pickup. The damn thing gets 28-30 mpg. Tons better than any Tacoma or Tundra.
However...the EPA will not allow the diesel Hi-Lux in the country. Their excuse? Emissions!
WHF? The Hi-Lux gets TWICE the mileage of the Tundra.
Don't they want us to use less fuel? Well...hello...how about letting in the 28mpg truck and doing away with the 12mpg ones?
Again...makes no sense at all.
Don't tell me the 28mpg Hi-Lux would not sell in America.
-brickboy240
I'd damn sure buy one. The one I'd specifically like to have is this one:
http://www.arctictrucks.com/lisalib/getfile.aspx?itemid=8393&proc=28
This goes well beyond grey market imports. They're also trying to use law enforcement and DoJ to enforce private contracts between dealers and manufacturers upon purchasers:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20140721/LEGALFILE/307219975/selling-vehicles-for-export-angers-automakers-but-is-it-illegal
"What you have is the federal government protecting foreign manufacturers' profit margins," said Josh Widlansky, a Florida lawyer representing Automotive Consultants of Hollywood, which says it locates vehicles for overseas clients but does not actually export any vehicles itself. "You have totally noncriminal conduct that the government is criminalizing because of these private contracts between the manufacturers and the dealerships."
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