View Full Version : Help me build something better than a KAC SR15 14.5" upper
phaseshift
08-05-14, 02:10
Well, the challenge is out there, given that KAC doesn't make the SBR 14.5" dimpled barrel upper anymore I'm looking to build one that's better and I need your help fellow m4carbiners! So lets do this! Money is of no issue but if something better can be built that cost less that would be a plus, otherwise I don't have a budget. Upper will be going on a noveske lower.
Includes a free BCG http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-ELW-KMR13-p/bcm-urg-mid-14elwf-kmr13.htm
Well, the challenge is out there, given that KAC doesn't make the SBR 14.5" dimpled barrel upper anymore I'm looking to build one that's better and I need your help fellow m4carbiners! So lets do this! Money is of no issue but if something better can be built that cost less that would be a plus, otherwise I don't have a budget. Upper will be going on a noveske lower.
That's going to be tough considering their E3 bolt and new gas block.
Better? Can't be done. It's like building a hot rod in your garage. You can drop in a bigger than stock engine in an LS460 and be faster in the quarter mile, but without spending the big bucks on R&D and thousands of hours of testing it's not going to be as smooth and dependable as a factory Lexus.
turnburglar
08-05-14, 07:12
I'm sure salient or legion will take all of your monies for a super AR.
PatrioticDisorder
08-05-14, 07:35
Don't know about "better", but I'm planning 3 franken builds soon. I plan to go BCM BFH ELW-F 14.5 mid length barrel when it becomes available, SLR sentry 6 gas block and will have ADCO pin it, along with using their black nitride gas tube... Used in conjunction with LMT enhanced BCG including bolt (will also be using nickel boron can pin), JP enhanced gas rings, VLTOR MUR upper, BCM KMR 13, Raptor charging handle, LWRC skirmish sights and Surefire SOCOM 3 prong flash hider (for SOCOM mini).... Technically part of the lower but I'll be using VLTOR A5 with tubbs CS flat wire spring and either stock A5 buffer or A3. Lower I'll be using the AX556 (better than SR-15 lower IMO). I don't think I'll have to adjust the gas block very much but I want it to be on the razor' edge of cycling Tula brass max .223 and I'll only be running 5.56 after that. I'm imagining it being a very soft shooting, accurate, durable, reliable, lightweight build that requires minimal maintenance but only time will tell if I'm right.
SR15s are hard to beat. Why not just get Marvin Pitts to dimple the barrel on one?
Failure2Stop
08-05-14, 09:59
How do you define "better"?
Going to be tough to do with out an E3 bolt and barrel extension.
I have a SR15 upper, literally the only things left I use are bolt, barrel and gas tube. Receiver, carrier, gas block rail, barrel nut, BUIS, and muzzle device have all been swapped out.
Is it better? IDK, thats subjective, but it is better for me. Its lighter, it has a longer rail, and the Gas block is pinned.
I'd consider starting with the SR15 upper and replace modify it as you want.
wildcard600
08-05-14, 11:07
Windham Weaponry.
bam. issue resolved.
I agree with TMS951, just get a sr15 upper and then modify as you see fit.
Windham Weaponry.
bam. issue resolved.
Please say that was sarcasm.
ScatmanCrothers
08-05-14, 12:16
Don't know about "better", but I'm planning 3 franken builds soon. I plan to go BCM BFH ELW-F 14.5 mid length barrel when it becomes available, SLR sentry 6 gas block and will have ADCO pin it, along with using their black nitride gas tube... Used in conjunction with LMT enhanced BCG including bolt (will also be using nickel boron can pin), JP enhanced gas rings, VLTOR MUR upper, BCM KMR 13, Raptor charging handle, LWRC skirmish sights and Surefire SOCOM 3 prong flash hider (for SOCOM mini).... Technically part of the lower but I'll be using VLTOR A5 with tubbs CS flat wire spring and either stock A5 buffer or A3. Lower I'll be using the AX556 (better than SR-15 lower IMO). I don't think I'll have to adjust the gas block very much but I want it to be on the razor' edge of cycling Tula brass max .223 and I'll only be running 5.56 after that. I'm imagining it being a very soft shooting, accurate, durable, reliable, lightweight build that requires minimal maintenance but only time will tell if I'm right.
What's your experience with all of this stuff?
wildcard600
08-05-14, 13:01
Please say that was sarcasm.
sarcasm was dripping off the keyboard as I typed it.
in other news, i would follow advice post #2.
PatrioticDisorder
08-05-14, 13:57
What's your experience with all of this stuff?
besides the AX556 lower, none. Many accounts of guys running VLTOR A5 in combo with LMT BCG (including bolt) and having success, including with BCM middies (14.5 & 16).... Also reports of guys using the SLR & Syrac adjustable gas blocks with a lot of success.... ELW-F barrels have been reported to have good accuracy, especially when used with KMR which allows for perfect barrel nut torque. In theory it should work well, I have stock DD rifles so I'm at the stage in the game where I want to build & tinker....
I could also just buy a SR-15 upper and call it a day, however no Mod 2 uppers available for currently and probably not an time soon, especially in 11.5 & 14.5 lengths... Of course if my builds run well then I'll have that added sense of pride that I built them, so there is that as well. YMMV
phaseshift
08-05-14, 14:29
Okay so if I go with the regular sr15 16" and have Marvin cut it to 14.5 and dimple the barrel what am I losing and what am I gaining compared to the normal 14.5 with dimpled barrel?
besides the AX556 lower, none. Many accounts of guys running VLTOR A5 in combo with LMT BCG (including bolt) and having success, including with BCM middies (14.5 & 16).... Also reports of guys using the SLR & Syrac adjustable gas blocks with a lot of success.... ELW-F barrels have been reported to have good accuracy, especially when used with KMR which allows for perfect barrel nut torque. In theory it should work well, I have stock DD rifles so I'm at the stage in the game where I want to build & tinker....
I could also just buy a SR-15 upper and call it a day, however no Mod 2 uppers available for currently and probably not an time soon, especially in 11.5 & 14.5 lengths... Of course if my builds run well then I'll have that added sense of pride that I built them, so there is that as well. YMMV
i think he asks because on this forum you are only supposed to speak from personal experience
ScatmanCrothers
08-05-14, 14:47
besides the AX556 lower, none. Many accounts of guys running VLTOR A5 in combo with LMT BCG (including bolt) and having success, including with BCM middies (14.5 & 16).... Also reports of guys using the SLR & Syrac adjustable gas blocks with a lot of success.... ELW-F barrels have been reported to have good accuracy, especially when used with KMR which allows for perfect barrel nut torque. In theory it should work well, I have stock DD rifles so I'm at the stage in the game where I want to build & tinker....
I could also just buy a SR-15 upper and call it a day, however no Mod 2 uppers available for currently and probably not an time soon, especially in 11.5 & 14.5 lengths... Of course if my builds run well then I'll have that added sense of pride that I built them, so there is that as well. YMMV
Just be careful with taking other guy's experiences with certain combinations at face value and assuming you'll have the same experience, especially with different variables mixed in. If you get into a bind after it's completed it'd make for a really difficult time finding where the issues are stemming from.
Otherwise that's about as cutting edge of a parts list as you could have. But forget about the SR-15 Mod 2 upper, for that kind of dough for three builds you could get a complete Mod 2. Or 2, or 3.
It's the same exact rifle except the orginial has a heavy contour barrel dimpled. Yours will have a skinny contour barrel dimpled. Yours will actually be lighter in weight.
Nothing else really differs. Gas port size may vary slightly but it's almost not worth mentioning.
I'll also add that while it might be slightly more bad ass, it will cost like $800 and basically add no real tangible benefit to the orinial configuration. If you want a 14.5" barrel. Ok but I don't really see the point in dimpling that skinny contour barrel.
Voodoo_Man
08-05-14, 15:49
Unless you are going to get a piston upper, and while that is not "better" it is just "different" I doubt you will get much more out of it.
I've done many versions of MOD1s cut to 14.5". That's about as close as you can get overall.
PatrioticDisorder
08-05-14, 16:47
Just be careful with taking other guy's experiences with certain combinations at face value and assuming you'll have the same experience, especially with different variables mixed in. If you get into a bind after it's completed it'd make for a really difficult time finding where the issues are stemming from.
Otherwise that's about as cutting edge of a parts list as you could have. But forget about the SR-15 Mod 2 upper, for that kind of dough for three builds you could get a complete Mod 2. Or 2, or 3.
Right on about the cost, $2,600-$2,700 a rifle for the builds I'm planning. Sound advice on being able to pin down issues if I come across them. I have 2 stock DD lowers I can swap an upper out, I'll also be buying a spare BCM or DD BCG so I'll be able to rule in/out the VLTOR A5 and/or LMT BCG if I run into issues. SLR Sentry 6 should function like any other quality gas block especially if it is pinned by ADCO, just open up the metering screw all the way.... So between all the combos I can test I will figure it out if I run into issues... The other 2 builds I plan are a 16" mid length and 11.5" carbine and my guess is if I do run into an issue it will be with the 14.5" mid length...
STONE-YARDER
08-05-14, 22:01
Deleted...
Here is one thing i have been thinking of lately which would be totally unique and awesome:
1) Buy a 16" KAC SR30. It comes with a sweet stainless barrel, rare SR30 roll mark (CA legel even!!) and the new QDC flash hider.
2) Sent it Marvin Pitts etc, have them cut it 14.5 and perm attach the QDC flash hider or a 30cal MAMS. Maybe do flutes if must get crazy, i think it would be better to be more unique instead of copying the dimples and flutes speak more to a precision stainless barrel to me then dimples. (pure personal conjecture, not a technical fact ). But really, whats your goal with the barrel work, just uniqueness? weight savings? I would cut it, pin it and move on....the other mods to a nice stainless barrel like that after it leaves the factory are really just self indulgence IMHO. Its expensive with little to gain. Its one thing to get a factory done one another to post production mod it.
The SR30 rifle are also generally discontinued which means their are very few out there so you will have that rare factor going for you and one of, if not the best production 300BO rifles ever made. (And they are on close out a few places in this soft market marker down from like 2800 to 2100 so they are a great value. Same price as the standard SR15 but with the upgraded stainless barrel).
There would be very few if any other 14.5 300BO SR-15s. And if you threw one of the new KAC CQB suppresors on that thing, you could go from supers for hunting or up to 200-300 yard type role, or subs for a super quite 150 and under gun.....versatile!
One benefit of the 14.5 vs something like an 11' is it would potentially make the CQB smaller suppressor still worth it as the blast on the longer barrel is less to begin with. With the shorter barrel it will often make more sense to get the longer suppressor as some people say the mini just dont do quire enough (again my personal opinion from my own research but by no means fact)
This is all dependent on.
1. your willingness to get in the 300bo ammo game (Shiz is expensive if you do not reload)
2. you don't believe 300BO only makes sense in SBR's with can else wise it give little value of 5.56 or there are better tools for the job like 308
3. Your ability to successfully deal with the forth coming comment from markm on how 300BO is an abomination to the world of ammo and and embarrassment to the rifle community :haha::dance3::lol::jester::sarcastic:
BOOM....go forth and propsper.
PS..I own a KAC sr-15 MOD1 SBR 14.5 with dimple barrel and its sick. I was considering doing the above too pair with it, but just dont think i have the wallet or a strong enough desire to get in the 300BO game right now. Will probably get a straight up mod 1 cut it to 14.5 and pin a mams on to have as a redundant back up to my 14.5 SBR.
BTW....the other easy answers are for pure awesomeness are.
A. Buy the 11.5 CQB
B. Just buy the SR25 MOD 2. That's probably going to be one of the baddest rifles ever made....
.
and then there are these options!!!
http://store.avguns.com/kac-sr15-e3-custom-partiot-brown-13-5-eotech-sr-fde-support-package-bonus-ammo/
http://store.avguns.com/kac-sr15-e3-mod1-16-1-hell-kitty-pink-cerakote-5-mag-tac-pac-custom-pre-order/
I've got a factory, 14.5, as well as a legacy upper that I sent to Pitts for a cut down to 14.5, full dimple job, and had him install the URX4 rail.
The Pitts cut down and URX 4 is much lighter and I prefer that one to the factory 14.5.
I'd say get a Mod 1 or Mod 2, and send it to Pitts for a cut down and dimple job, and be done.
For the price of the factory. 14.5 upper you can get the whole rifle.
I've got a factory, 14.5, as well as a legacy upper that I sent to Pitts for a cut down to 14.5, full dimple job, and had him install the URX4 rail.
The Pitts cut down and URX 4 is much lighter and I prefer that one to the factory 14.5.
Could some please clarify for me: What is required to install a URX4 on a legacy gas block? Does it fit or need it be "adjusted" to fit the over it?
Thanks
anyone have any pictures of their cut and dimpled mod 1? I wouldnt mind sending mine to get done.
Might not be better but I hear those Noveske guys, that make your lower, make a pretty decent upper.
or LMT MRP CQB.
Might not be better but I hear those Noveske guys, that make your lower, make a pretty decent upper.
or LMT MRP CQB.
Noveske makes the AX556 lowers? And what upper exactly are you talking about? AX556?
To the OP, I would just get the 16" mod 1 upper. Have it chopped, but skip the dimpling IMO. The 16" already has a thinner profile. It won't look exactly like the factory 14.5 either. The dimples won't be as deep; I know this is just aesthetics, and this is only if you are really picky.
Could some please clarify for me: What is required to install a URX4 on a legacy gas block? Does it fit or need it be "adjusted" to fit the over it?
Thanks
New gas block from KAC.
Upper will be going on a noveske lower. from the OP
Noveske makes the AX556 lowers? And what upper exactly are you talking about? AX556?
The upper I'm talking about is the Noveske CQB.
Thanks, sorry I got mixed up with a thread I read right before posting that; it was similar, but the OP said he was building off an AX lower.
phaseshift
08-07-14, 16:51
Might not be better but I hear those Noveske guys, that make your lower, make a pretty decent upper.
or LMT MRP CQB.
The only reason why I'm keeping my noveske lower is because I already have it and don't want to spend the time to get another lower (however I might get in on the Battle Arms lower). Other than that I don't want to deal with Noveske ever again, had a bad experience with them.
How do you define "better"?
Exactly. Within a couple strict definitions, it's entirely possible to do so, and in a few cases for less money. For most applications - no. Not even close.
phaseshift
08-07-14, 18:01
Exactly. Within a couple strict definitions, it's entirely possible to do so, and in a few cases for less money. For most applications - no. Not even close.
For most applications, multi purpose just straight BAD ASS upper that will take everything you give it and then some.
wilson1911
08-07-14, 22:28
Could some please clarify for me: What is required to install a URX4 on a legacy gas block? Does it fit or need it be "adjusted" to fit the over it?
Thanks
I have a legacy with a urx 4 on it now, had a nsr. I just bought a bcm lopro block and used it. no need for the kac, since they are so pricey.
Okay so if I go with the regular sr15 16" and have Marvin cut it to 14.5 and dimple the barrel what am I losing and what am I gaining compared to the normal 14.5 with dimpled barrel?
Two points.
First. The 14.5" carbine upper is a medium contour dimpled barrel. It also has a different gas port size than a 16" SR-15. (See KAC industry thread early 2013 jack L made some references to it). However, apparently a lot of folks have chopped the 16" upper without opening the gas port and no apparent problems. I love the 14.5" carbine upper.
Second. As has been pointed out "better" barrel would need to be defined. But you are going to be hard pressed. You won't get KAC intermediate gas system or the E3 bolt but another option would be to get one of Marvin's "nefarious arms" barrels. They are stainless steel, midlength gas system and already dimpled.
phaseshift
08-08-14, 14:54
I've got a factory, 14.5, as well as a legacy upper that I sent to Pitts for a cut down to 14.5, full dimple job, and had him install the URX4 rail.
The Pitts cut down and URX 4 is much lighter and I prefer that one to the factory 14.5.
I'd say get a Mod 1 or Mod 2, and send it to Pitts for a cut down and dimple job, and be done.
For the price of the factory. 14.5 upper you can get the whole rifle.
I think this will be the route I take I love KAC and I don't think I'll rest until I have a KAC upper and if I ever move out of Kali I'll get a lower as well.
phaseshift
08-08-14, 15:00
Is there much of a difference between MOD 1 and MOD 2 SR15 Upper? If I get a MOD 2 upper and replace the URX 4 with URX 3.1 is there anything else that needs to be done to ensure proper fitting?
PatrioticDisorder
08-08-14, 15:31
Is there much of a difference between MOD 1 and MOD 2 SR15 Upper? If I get a MOD 2 upper and replace the URX 4 with URX 3.1 is there anything else that needs to be done to ensure proper fitting?
Check out the URX4 install video, too complicated for me. Part of the reason the Mod2 gas tube & gas block were completely changed I think is to make life easier if you ever want/need to remove the URX4 rail... Another thing is KAC is not selling Mod2 uppers, I don't believe anymore mod 1 uppers are being made so you may be need to be very patient in waiting for thr mod2 uppers to leave the factory, I doubt we'll see the uppers anytime this year. As great as KAC stuff is out of the box, IMO it's not really worth that kind of wait.
phaseshift
08-08-14, 15:59
Check out the URX4 install video, too complicated for me. Part of the reason the Mod2 gas tube & gas block were completely changed I think is to make life easier if you ever want/need to remove the URX4 rail... Another thing is KAC is not selling Mod2 uppers, I don't believe anymore mod 1 uppers are being made so you may be need to be very patient in waiting for thr mod2 uppers to leave the factory, I doubt we'll see the uppers anytime this year. As great as KAC stuff is out of the box, IMO it's not really worth that kind of wait.
http://store.avguns.com/knights-armament-16-sr15-e3-iws-mod-2-upper-receiver/
are these not mod 2s? i heard these were replicas
PatrioticDisorder
08-08-14, 16:14
http://store.avguns.com/knights-armament-16-sr15-e3-iws-mod-2-upper-receiver/
are these not mod 2s? i heard these were replicas
They may be mod 1's with the URX4 they are calling "mod 2s", Tom P. from KAC who would be in the know reported on TOS mod 2 uppers would not ship until at least end of year (and KAC is generally a little slower than they predict when releasing new products)... Perhaps they started shipping mod 2 uppers already but I doubt it, so I'll venture to say it's either a mod1 upper with a URX4 or they separated a Mod 2 upper and lower to sell seperate (not a bad idea since many want either or and nobody is really selling KAC lowers or mod 2 uppers at this point). The listing makes no mention of the Mod2 gas system so I'd want hard confirmation from AV if it is indeed a mod2 upper.
... And looking at a price of only $1300 makes me believe it is likely a mod1 with URX they are calling a mod2, I believe a true mod2 upper would fetch significantly more ($1,700-1,800) at this point.
Lastly in this are you aware KAC discontinued the dimpling because of user feed back? Apparently in jungle environments dirt and mud got stuck int he dimples.
If you're trying to build 'better' consider dimpled might not actually be better. Now if you live in an arid environment it might not be an issue.
Just food for thought.
phaseshift
08-08-14, 16:30
Lastly in this are you aware KAC discontinued the dimpling because of user feed back? Apparently in jungle environments dirt and mud got stuck int he dimples.
If you're trying to build 'better' consider dimpled might not actually be better. Now if you live in an arid environment it might not be an issue.
Just food for thought.
I have read that before on another forum, plus since it is a lightweight barrel already I don't think dimpling it would be necessary unless it's for aesthetic purposes.
OP if you are interested in a Mod 2 upper, I have some mod 2 rifles in stock but I have a customer who only wants a lower. If I can find a buyer for the upper then i'll part them out. PM me if you are interested.
phaseshift
08-08-14, 20:16
If I go with the mod 2 or mod 1 upper what kind of buffer tube kit should I get? I have a VLTOR A5 buffer kit readily available.
Failure2Stop
08-08-14, 20:19
http://store.avguns.com/knights-armament-16-sr15-e3-iws-mod-2-upper-receiver/
are these not mod 2s? i heard these were replicas
From the pic, that's a genuine mod 2 upper. Must be a take off.
PatrioticDisorder
08-08-14, 22:35
From the pic, that's a genuine mod 2 upper. Must be a take off.
How can you tell?
Failure2Stop
08-09-14, 11:53
How can you tell?
Lasering on the left side of receiver.
Gas block relief cut in the URX4.
The gas block and gas tube retainer nut look correct, but can't say for sure.
Together, the upper gives a strong impression of being correct.
phaseshift
08-09-14, 13:08
looks like I'll be going the mod 1 route since the gas port is too big for the urx 3.1
Lasering on the left side of receiver.
Gas block relief cut in the URX4.
The gas block and gas tube retainer nut look correct, but can't say for sure.
Together, the upper gives a strong impression of being correct.
What is the cut near the receiver end of the rail above the QD attachments? I guess this version of the URX4 13.5" will only be on factory MOD 2's?
Also I had heard the gas tubes are 'straight' on the MOD 2's, is that correct?
looks like I'll be going the mod 1 route since the gas port is too big for the urx 3.1
I think you mean gas block.
In most cases you could probably just swap the gas block for one that fits under the rail, but with the proprietary MOD 2 type gas block I don't think that would be the case. The URX4 is not to shabby in my opinion, but it's your gun.
PatrioticDisorder
08-09-14, 14:20
Lasering on the left side of receiver.
Gas block relief cut in the URX4.
The gas block and gas tube retainer nut look correct, but can't say for sure.
Together, the upper gives a strong impression of being correct.
Thank you, appears you are correct. I didn't see the picture of the left side of the receiver.
What is the cut near the receiver end of the rail above the QD attachments? I guess this version of the URX4 13.5" will only be on factory MOD 2's?
Also I had heard the gas tubes are 'straight' on the MOD 2's, is that correct?
Yes. Not promoting, just best pics I've seen of the gas system disassembled: http://www.smallarmsales.com/knights-armament-sr-15-iws-e3-mod2-carbine-16-barrel-urx-4-14-5-long-handguard/
The URX 4 that comes on mod 2 is 14.5" long.
Yes. Not promoting, just best pics I've seen of the gas system disassembled: http://www.smallarmsales.com/knights-armament-sr-15-iws-e3-mod2-carbine-16-barrel-urx-4-14-5-long-handguard/
The URX 4 that comes on mod 2 is 14.5" long.
Thanks for the link to the photos. It's a very interesting design.
My mistake on the rail length, meant to say 14.5".
phaseshift
08-27-14, 22:25
Still considering the SR15 16" cut down and dimpled by Marvin, but also still open for alternatives. Generally everyone says these things about the SR15 "well balance", "light", "softest shooting AR", "accurate" can we build a custom upper that does the same? Lets come up with a custom upper that can rival an sr15...is it possible? What do you guys think?
Did... you even read the thread?
Hint: start here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?156260-Help-me-build-something-better-than-a-KAC-SR15-14-5-quot-upper)
Still considering the SR15 16" cut down and dimpled by Marvin, but also still open for alternatives. Generally everyone says these things about the SR15 "well balance", "light", "softest shooting AR", "accurate" can we build a custom upper that does the same? Lets come up with a custom upper that can rival an sr15...is it possible? What do you guys think?
BCM mid-length 14.5" w/ KMR + Vltor A5 might do the trick...
BCM mid-length 14.5" w/ KMR + Vltor A5 might do the trick...
That is a sweet setup. I have a 16" middy with an a5 and I think its just as smooth as my sr15. Get the elw barrel and it'll really balance out.
Better than a SR-15!? I don't know... uh, maybe the Desert Tech MDR when it comes out? That's a pretty tall order.
There's 5 KAC 14.5 dimpled uppers on gun broker right now, a bit of a premium because of the rarity but they are available.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=436805547
phaseshift
08-29-14, 23:05
There's 5 KAC 14.5 dimpled uppers on gun broker right now, a bit of a premium because of the rarity but they are available.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=436805547
ouch that's a premium!
Quote:
"Help me build something better than a KAC SR15 14.5" upper "
To do that you will definitely have your work cut-out for you.
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