View Full Version : CHL--How many of y'all carry a backup pistol?
I mean on your person, not in a vehicle. And I exclude security personnel, off duty LEO, etc. Just ordinary CHL folk.
I don't; but does anybody?
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-09-14, 23:06
Most of the time I carry a J-frame. But when I feel froggy I carry my 1911 and a J-Frame. Who can say which it the backup?
I carry a J frame, or Shield or HK45C when I feel Froggy! Winter is usually Frog season! Edit, I only carry one gun. Misread the post. No back-up to primary.
Never have, can't see myself ever feeling it necessary. Bit ridiculous IMO.
MorphCross
08-10-14, 00:48
While I can see the utility of having a backup the execution of a backup is the Issue. When I carry the pistol is inside the waistband and my two spare mags are in a cargo pocket. In the middle of summer this makes hiding another pistol on my person practically impossible without some sort of bellyband holster.
So you guys that do, what is the utility of it?
A BUG is a great idea for many reasons.
1) Your primary weapon is prone to malfunction. If you don't agree then you need to shoot more. I have had the following malfunctions with handguns: Failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to eject, failure to fire, slide prematurely locked back, double feed, magazine falling out, DA/SA acting like DAO. These are with handguns made by Glock, FN, Walther, S&W, and Colt.
2) You may not have access to your primary weapon. It could've been taken from you or you might be in a confined space where it is impossible to reach. This all depends on where you're carrying.
3) You can arm a friend.
It is so easy to have an LCP in your pocket that there is no good excuse not to.
A BUG is a great idea for many reasons.
1) Your primary weapon is prone to malfunction. If you don't agree then you need to shoot more. I have had the following malfunctions with handguns: Failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to eject, failure to fire, slide prematurely locked back, double feed, magazine falling out, DA/SA acting like DAO. These are with handguns made by Glock, FN, Walther, S&W, and Colt.
2) You may not have access to your primary weapon. It could've been taken from you or you might be in a confined space where it is impossible to reach. This all depends on where you're carrying.
3) You can arm a friend.
It is so easy to have an LCP in your pocket that there is no good excuse not to.
I guess that works for some. Not for me. If my primary weapon was "prone" to malfunction I wouldn't own it. Sure its possible, but IMO, if I actually need my gun and it just so happens that it chooses that time to malfunction, then I'll just wing it. And how would you not be able to reach a handgun on your waist?
I sometimes dual carry. Either open carry a full size semi-auto or conceal carry a slim semi-auto(9mm Shield mostly) on my hip with a J frame in an ankle holster. As long as I'm wearing pants it doesn't slow me down a bit.
Sometimes is my answer. Either an LCP or 442 offhand.
As mentioned, reasons for carry a BUG include ability to employ if you are unable to draw your primary, your primary suffers a malfunction you are unable to or decide not to take the time to clear, or your primary is outta bullets. Another "nice to have" is a pocket carry pistol in addition to IWB - a weapon you can have your hand on and no one knows about it, try that with your AIWB G19 without anyone noticing.
Some may chide as "rediculous" and "what are the odds you'll need it?" But then again odds are low you'll need a weapon at all?
And how would you not be able to reach a handgun on your waist?Do you ever practice in retention drills, hand to hand, and employment of weapons at contact distance?
You'll have a hard time reaching the pistol in your belt when your hand is keeping a knife from cutting you wide open or someone actually has their hand on YOUR pistol.
Think about it, not a timer and cardboard here.
And can I get a definition of "wing it"? ;)
I used to carry a BUG years ago but don't anymore. I can see it being a larger concern for LE and similar roles, but for me, I am not overly concerned about needing a spare pistol.
I usually carry pocket pistol if carrying primary on, or inside my waistband. I cannot imagine a worst sound than that of a "click" instead of a "bang" from my primary gun. If I were going on the probability of needing a second gun, I'd probably just leave the primary at home also, since the chance I'd need ANY gun on any given day is too small to merit serious thought. Having said that, I ALWAYS carry, always.
Skip
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-10-14, 10:41
I almost never carry a BUG, (or, rather, I only carry my BUG). But there is certainly nothing wrong with a little insurance. Most of us are unlikely to need our primary handguns either--but we carry them as insurance. Unless you go with something like a P2000 SK or G26 most BUG are basically invisible to the owner anyway (tiny, lightweight).
#damn! skipper beat me to it.
I guess that works for some. Not for me. If my primary weapon was "prone" to malfunction I wouldn't own it. Sure its possible, but IMO, if I actually need my gun and it just so happens that it chooses that time to malfunction, then I'll just wing it. And how would you not be able to reach a handgun on your waist?
My advice is to never trust a firearm. For example, for a three week period I once carried an up-till-then flawless CZ P-01 that was completely incapable of firing. It turned out that the firing pin retaining pins had broken, but I didn't realize this until I had it at the range and discovered that there was absolutely no way to make the gun fire without ordering new parts and installing them. If I had actually needed it, there was nothing that could be done to "wing it" other than to wing it (throw it) at the threat.
It's so easy to throw an LCP in your pocket that there's not really a good reason not to. They are so compact and light that you will literally forget that you have it on you.
Howdy,
Never have, can't see myself ever feeling it necessary. Bit ridiculous IMO.
+1!
Paul
Louis Awerbuck was a big advocate of carrying a BUG and always reserved a portion of any pistol course for working with attendees who brought one. I never carry one, don't even carry an extra magazine. In fact, don't even carry very often. The mission drives the gear. In my little corner of paradise, the need for armed self-defense is low.
Distinguished Rick
08-10-14, 13:40
Not a usual occurrence. If I have the need to it would be my G26 to back up my G19 with extra G17 of G19 mags or my G30 to back up my G21 with extra G21 mags. Both weapons shoot the same caliber with magazines that fit both. Not necessary most of the time.
Louis Awerbuck was a big advocate of carrying a BUG and always reserved a portion of any pistol course for working with attendees who brought one. I never carry one, don't even carry an extra magazine. In fact, don't even carry very often. The mission drives the gear. In my little corner of paradise, the need for armed self-defense is low.
In general, if you don't go stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people you should be fine.
Do you ever practice in retention drills, hand to hand, and employment of weapons at contact distance?
You'll have a hard time reaching the pistol in your belt when your hand is keeping a knife from cutting you wide open or someone actually has their hand on YOUR pistol.
Think about it, not a timer and cardboard here.
And can I get a definition of "wing it"? ;)
If your hands are so busy that they can't get to your primary, how would a BUG help? And if I come up with a good one, I'll let you know.
If your hands are so busy that they can't get to your primary, how would a BUG help? And if I come up with a good one, I'll let you know.So you can't think of situation where your strong hand is busy but your weak hand isn't? Don't bother thinking too hard now.
You don't need to tell me, I already figured it out. ;)
And wing it means I have no idea and will probably fail.
................ I never carry one, don't even carry an extra magazine. .................
My money says that this, not carrying a reload magazine, is more common than most would think. I would make sure I have a reload before worrying about a second gun.
I can't imagine carrying a semi-auto without also taking an extra mag, even in paradise.
My money says that this, not carrying a reload magazine, is more common than most would think. I would make sure I have a reload before worrying about a second gun.
I can't imagine carrying a semi-auto without also taking an extra mag, even in paradise.Agree 100%.
So you can't think of situation where your strong hand is busy but your weak hand isn't? Don't bother thinking too hard now.
You don't need to tell me, I already figured it out. ;)
And wing it means I have no idea and will probably fail.
Haha I don't know about the last part, I see people wing it successfully all the time in movies. On a real note though, sure maybe there could be a few circumstances where I couldn't reach my primary but could reach a BUG if I had it on me, but again, IMO for that to happen all of the planets would have to be aligned against me and maybe it just wasn't meant to be.
HighDesert
08-10-14, 15:27
My money says that this, not carrying a reload magazine, is more common than most would think. I would make sure I have a reload before worrying about a second gun.
I can't imagine carrying a semi-auto without also taking an extra mag, even in paradise.
I disagree.
For me grabbing my 642 from pocket is quicker than reloading my Glock. I also like the fact that my 642 as backup cannot be limp wristed and can be fired from odd angles. Contact shots are also possible.
Will always rather carry a backup gun than a spare mag on me.
With that said, if I have a bag, there is always a spare mag or two same w in my car.
In general, if you don't go stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people you should be fine.
Although not the sole way to avoid the need for armed self-defense, certainly a key component and excellent advice.
Most people can probably get through life without needing a weapon of any kind. I carry because the idea of not having an option to protect those I love or myself, however extremely remote the chance, is so horrific that it's worth the time/effort I put into it. As far as a backup, I carried one for 25 yrs as a cop, but don't now that I'm retired. I consider that my retirement "vice."
For those that carry a backup, more power to you and quite frankly, I admire your dedication. For those who think a back up is ridiculous, keep in mind that most non-gun people, think carrying even a single gun for protection is ridiculous. Personally I wouldn't be so quick to judge (but I guess we're a judgmental lot to begin with).
I can't imagine carrying a semi-auto without also taking an extra mag, even in paradise.
Yes. Sometimes it's hard to imagine someone else's attitudes and lifestyle preferences.
Yes. Sometimes it's hard to imagine someone else's attitudes and lifestyle preferences.
I didn't say anything about your attitude. I made a comment about mine.
In general, if you don't go stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people you should be fine.
I live in a good neighborhood with very low crime. It's not a stupid place with stupid people. Almost everyday, I drive past the spot where Agents Grogan and Dove were killed in the Miami shootout. I frequently walk my dogs down that quiet street, about a half mile from my house. My take is that no matter where you go or live, bad people are mobile and may come to you, so staying prepared (armed) and observant is just a way of life.
The Miami Shootout also makes a strong argument for BUGs.
I live in a good neighborhood with very low crime. It's not a stupid place with stupid people. Almost everyday, I drive past the spot where Agents Grogan and Dove were killed in the Miami shootout. I frequently walk my dogs down that quiet street, about a half mile from my house. My take is that no matter where you go or live, bad people are mobile and may come to you, so staying prepared (armed) and observant is just a way of life.
The Miami Shootout also makes a strong argument for BUGs.
Or ammo better than the 9 mm or 38 Spl. the agents carried. It wasn't that they didn't hit Mattix or Platt, but rather the rounds didn't put them down.
And back up revolvers were used by agents in the fight, but then I don't think there is much to debate about back ups being a good practice for LE.
HardToHandle
08-10-14, 17:06
Yes on carrying a back-up pistol. Certainly not always, but somewhat frequently.
My rationale are similar to others:
1) Failure of primary pistol, i.e., the New York Reload
2) Arm someone else
3) Surreptitious draw in certain circumstances
4) Ability to draw a second gun in certain positions when the primary cannot be drawn
5) Because I can - I once worked for a police department that prohibited so-called "drop guns" - they were a solid 40 years behind the times
For what it is worth I carry an additional magazine 95% of the time. That's a tactical choice because it allows me significant more options; this was a learning from a training course.
Sometimes is my answer. Either an LCP or 442 offhand.
As mentioned, reasons for carry a BUG include ability to employ if you are unable to draw your primary, your primary suffers a malfunction you are unable to or decide not to take the time to clear, or your primary is outta bullets. Another "nice to have" is a pocket carry pistol in addition to IWB - a weapon you can have your hand on and no one knows about it, try that with your AIWB G19 without anyone noticing.
Some may chide as "rediculous" and "what are the odds you'll need it?" But then again odds are low you'll need a weapon at all?
I totally agree with the pocket pistol concept. No one really notices a man standing around with his hands in his pockets. I carry my primary strong side IWB and a G-42 in a Ramora pocket holster offside or sometimes strong side. At 59 being to be able to have the BUG in hand might prove to be quicker than clearing and drawing my primary pistol.
Flankenstein
08-10-14, 20:27
Spare mag no back up.
I like BUGs. The are useful in arming others, deployment from unconventional positions, and replacing the primary due to loss, inaccessibility, or failure.
For those choosing a BUG in lieu of a reload... What are you getting on the timer when you compare times to reload vs deploying a BUG? Then, how does the quality of your hits compare?
I carry an extra mag for my g19, but no BUG.
Desert Dog
08-11-14, 22:30
How many would more likely carry a fighting knife before considering a second gun? I would personally rather defend myself with my five inch Perrin Street Bowie than an LCP. Knife is carried offside, IWB front diagonal with a static cord teather. Very unobtrusive carry and can be accessed when seated (unlike a pocketed BUG), with either hand. Spare mag should be a given, but need to remind myself of that on an ongoing basis for it to remain a habit. I have a couple of double shoulder rigs that make the two gun carry task easier, and I do like the way they balance the load, but rarely find an occasion that requires them.
How many would more likely carry a fighting knife before considering a second gun?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4PfDXSZk9w/TOAZ4scXsLI/AAAAAAAAAeU/cszapzOKfhM/s1600/Sword.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4PfDXSZk9w/TOAZ4scXsLI/AAAAAAAAAeU/cszapzOKfhM/s1600/Sword.jpg
Yup!!!
A BUG is a great idea for many reasons.
1) Your primary weapon is prone to malfunction. If you don't agree then you need to shoot more. I have had the following malfunctions with handguns: Failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to eject, failure to fire, slide prematurely locked back, double feed, magazine falling out, DA/SA acting like DAO. These are with handguns made by Glock, FN, Walther, S&W, and Colt.
2) You may not have access to your primary weapon. It could've been taken from you or you might be in a confined space where it is impossible to reach. This all depends on where you're carrying.
3) You can arm a friend.
It is so easy to have an LCP in your pocket that there is no good excuse not to.
Great points! I carry an LCP with a spare mag for these reasons. Most people who know I carry think it's crazy because I already EDC a G19 with two spare mags. When I mention arming a friend they change their tune a bit.
Desert Dog
08-12-14, 02:00
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4PfDXSZk9w/TOAZ4scXsLI/AAAAAAAAAeU/cszapzOKfhM/s1600/Sword.jpg
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of urban encounter that most here are training for... :laugh:
Of course, if you're Indiana Jones, then your BUG is actually an $800 David Morgan bullwhip. For my little desert 'burb, I'd still rather back my primary gun with a 5" fixed blade that I've trained with than an LCP in my front pocket. My friends are already armed. Tossing an unarmed, and likely untrained person a loaded weapon when the fecal matter hits the whirling blades may only serve to make the situation go from bad to worse. More urban ninja fantasy than reality. Try some force-on-force training with a maxed out Batbelt and see how it limits your ability to effectively fight. It's a trade off worth considering. Practical matters like using a public restroom, or getting 'bump frisked' when toting two guns and three mags should likewise be considered.
http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/screencrush.com/files/2012/09/indy-swordsman.jpg
MorphCross
08-12-14, 02:31
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_U4PfDXSZk9w/TOAZ4scXsLI/AAAAAAAAAeU/cszapzOKfhM/s1600/Sword.jpg
Counter point:Khukuri user. (http://www.badassoftheweek.com/shrestha.html)
Alpha Sierra
08-12-14, 04:39
I have enough crap on me already, I'm not taking a second pistol along.
The odds of me needing the primary are so small, that the need for the second one is infinitesimal.
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of urban encounter that most here are training for... :laugh:
I was thinking more along the lines of expressing the futility of bringing a knife to a gunfight. I know how to shoot. I have no idea how to use a knife in self defense and frankly have no desire to learn. YMMV.
Yup!!!
So I take it you carry a BUG and no fixed blade?
In an evo, you could deploy a BUG in your pocket, but not a G19 from AIWB?
This thread makes my head hurt.
Tueller............... Tueller.................
I tried it and found it to be a giant P.I.A., quite literally.
So, for me it's a Glock 19, a fully loaded spare magazine, and Spyderco Endura Clipit and if I'm on my bicycle, a 4oz. canister of Freeze +P pepper spray.
I will add that were I knowingly going into harms way, I'd carry a BUG and it'd be another G19 not a 5/6 shot revolver.
Yeah, that's exactly the sort of urban encounter that most here are training for... :laugh:
http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/screencrush.com/files/2012/09/indy-swordsman.jpgWell...let's just say I have in-laws in the Philly area and their surrounding neighborhood does have a significant population proportion of Indian and Pakistani folks...
I carry a spare magazine but I do not carry a BUG.
I rarely carry a BUG. If I do it's a DAO pocket pistol on the support side.
Always carry a spare mag for the primary (G19) and folding knife.
I wish I had a fixed blade knife because it's far easier to deploy but I can't find a good scabbard for one. (One that I trust so I don't get stuck leaning over or something)
Consider quality front eject knife too but the handles never have a proper shape.
Just wondering...do highly trained knife guys carry a back up knife or back up gun..?
The chances of having to use a knife seem far greater than having to use a gun, and I'm not even talking about SD.
I don't carry a BUG, I carry AIWB so I'd be hard pressed to not be able to draw. But I also keep myself in shape, my mind sharp, and could fight back a lot of the population, and be able to get to my gun. How may carry a BUG, but can't get themselves off the ground in less than 5 seconds?
I also carry a mag almost every day. I'll usually downgrade to the shield w/mag before dropping my mag for the FS.
I don't think a BUG is a bad idea (good for leo), but for a civ like me, no one knows I have a fs, so that argument is out. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze for me.
PatrioticDisorder
08-12-14, 18:00
Once upon a time I carried a BUG, an extra mag and a blade. Now it's usually just my Shield an usually an extra mag (when dress attire allows).
no Bug. one handgun, reload or two, and a knife.
Other than that if I run into something that requires more firepower, than ive probably made a series of bad decisions to get there. With little situational awareness I should never need the first gun.
Before I got into LE I carried for 12 years on CCL's. The only times I carried a 2nd gun was when on road trips. Partly because I figured I was more vulnerable away from my "known" areas, at rest stops, gas stations, odd hours, etc. Mostly though it was because I wear my BUG around the house and when running. I didn't want to leave a gun in the car so I just kept both on my person.
The chances of having to use a knife seem far greater than having to use a gun, and I'm not even talking about SD.
I absolutely agree. I use my Benchmade mini-Reflex automatic several times a day. I've never yet had to shoot an Amazon box open...
I disagree.
For me grabbing my 642 from pocket is quicker than reloading my Glock.
Respectfully, you're doing it wrong. The only way grabbing a 2nd gun would be faster than reloading the gun you're holding would be if it was a revolver.
Yeah, I've done it but don't make a habit out of it. Spare mag is a must of course.
I ALWAYS carry a spare magazine though I've been contemplating a new holster from crossbreed that would hold both a spare magazine and my Ruger LCP together on my weak side
Devildawg2531
08-15-14, 21:12
WHAT? Just a BUG? I try to never leave home without my G34, G17 and G26 with at least 10 mags and light and knife!
No I carry just the G17 or G26 and a couple of extra mags. I feel this will be sufficient for my needs. YMMV depending on your lifestyle and locale.
teutonicpolymer
08-16-14, 08:46
I think the people carrying the G19 or other good compact pistol, spare mag, fixed blade, flashlight, and pepper spray are doing it right
It absolutely is a lot of shit to carry which is another reason why Vertx pants are awesome
?... another reason why Vertx pants are awesome
And so attractive in the corporate environment.:D
turnburglar
08-16-14, 13:34
I'd find a trunk gun more practical than a bug, or even spare mags. In lowly civilian capacity, I'd know if my threat level would greatly exceed what a glock 19 can handle.
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