View Full Version : Questions on match barrels for Glocks
acaixguard
08-11-14, 18:10
Two questions on Glock match barrels
1. Do they change the point of impact at all? For example, if I have a Gen4 G17 that shoots a bit to the left when the sights are perfectly centered, could a new barrel potentially make it shoot center?
2. For the barrels were "some fitting may be required", is this an average person can take on, and if so, where are the right spots that need filing?
Thanks in advance!
I have a Storm Lake barrel for my G22 and it did not change the POI one bit.
It was a drop in barrel so I don't have the fitting info for you.
1. It might or it might not, but a new barrel is not the best fix for a POI issue. It's much easier to just drift your sights.
2. I stoned the back of the barrel hood until it would fit into the slide. Then I stoned the bottom of the barrel lug until it would fit onto the frame. Then I shot it and kept stoning the barrel lug until it stopped choking. Then I stripped it, cleaned it, lubed it lightly, and put it through the 2,000-Round Challenge, which it passed.
Okie John
There is a potential for changing POA/POI but okie said, using a barrel is not the correct way to adjust for that.
I tried a KKM barrel in my Gen 4 G19 over the weekend and it shifted the POI between 6-12 inches high at 25 yards.
dmaxfireman
08-11-14, 19:37
I have a KKM in my gen3 19 and the POI did shift apx 3in down at 25yds. Contrary to popular belief, at least for me with bulk ammo my groups did shrink a measurable amount.
Two questions on Glock match barrels
1. Do they change the point of impact at all? For example, if I have a Gen4 G17 that shoots a bit to the left when the sights are perfectly centered, could a new barrel potentially make it shoot center?
Thanks in advance!
Don't take offense, but it's probably you and not the gun.
acaixguard
08-11-14, 23:25
Don't take offense, but it's probably you and not the gun.
It's absolutely not me. 100% guaranteed. I know it's a safe assumption to make, so no offense taken. I'm far from a pro, but I shoot well enough to know when I do jerk the trigger.
Just for reference, I have a G19 with the exact same setup as my G17, and I am dead on with the G19. The day I first shot the G17, my buddy was with me with his Gen 3 G17 as well. I shot his G17 dead center, and he shot my G17 left. I got the same results when shooting off a rest and offhand. My buddy is a pretty good shooter, so between all this, I think it's safe to conclude it's not me. I seriously doubt that I am suddenly doing something differently only when picking up my G17.
Anyhow thanks for the other suggestions. I already have the sights drifted .02 to the right, and now the windage is spot on. Just that I'm not crazy about sights being this off centered. Not a biggie I guess, but this is the only pistol I've had where I could visually see the sights off-center so easily, so I'm just not used to it.
It'll be totally unpredictable. Drift your sights for wind age and change the front sight height for elevation. Hell POI can move inches between different ammo even so zero with your carry load and check your target ammo against it. If you want a match barrel you should do that first because it will most likely move POI again.
acaixguard
08-12-14, 23:05
I did notice that elevation changed a bit amongst the different ammo I have. They all shot a little high, just to varying degrees. They did all shoot consistently to the left though.
Two questions on Glock match barrels
1. Do they change the point of impact at all? For example, if I have a Gen4 G17 that shoots a bit to the left when the sights are perfectly centered, could a new barrel potentially make it shoot center?
2. For the barrels were "some fitting may be required", is this an average person can take on, and if so, where are the right spots that need filing?
Thanks in advance!
Changing the barrel absolutely has the potential to change the POI. It will be unpredictable as to what the change will be, but it can happen.
I have a KKM for a G17, and the POI is almost 5' higher at 25 yards than the stock barrel. A taller front sight post was purchased to get it to where I prefer my POA/POI to be.
I have another KKM for a G19, and the POI shift was minimal, just a little windage shift that required a slight adjustment of the rear sight.
It's absolutely not me. 100% guaranteed. I know it's a safe assumption to make, so no offense taken. I'm far from a pro, but I shoot well enough to know when I do jerk the trigger.
Just for reference, I have a G19 with the exact same setup as my G17, and I am dead on with the G19. The day I first shot the G17, my buddy was with me with his Gen 3 G17 as well. I shot his G17 dead center, and he shot my G17 left. I got the same results when shooting off a rest and offhand. My buddy is a pretty good shooter, so between all this, I think it's safe to conclude it's not me. I seriously doubt that I am suddenly doing something differently only when picking up my G17.
Anyhow thanks for the other suggestions. I already have the sights drifted .02 to the right, and now the windage is spot on. Just that I'm not crazy about sights being this off centered. Not a biggie I guess, but this is the only pistol I've had where I could visually see the sights off-center so easily, so I'm just not used to it.
Try changing the locking block and or slide lock. Not all parts are exactly the same. They fall into windows of tolerances. Some on the high end, some, low end, etc...
acaixguard
08-17-14, 12:55
Could there be that much variance with the slide lock or locking block even with OEM parts?
joshrunkle35
08-17-14, 13:04
I have 4 Glocks at the moment, and have previously owned 3 others. I have never had any of them have any barrel issues with a standard barrel. It's most likely the shooter, not the gun. Remember that the 19 and 17 have different triggers due to import regulations. Have you tried locking it in a vice and shooting it? If it is shooting to a different area than you are aiming, adjust the sights.
A new barrel should only be considered if consistency is an issue. IE, if they all hit the same area, but not where you aimed, then the barrel is consistent, you or the sights need the fixing.
Voodoo_Man
08-17-14, 13:20
I have a barsto in a g19. No shift, gave it to a shop to do.
Not really worth it in my opinion unless there is something specific you want it to do.
Could there be that much variance with the slide lock or locking block even with OEM parts?
I don't think that there is any large problem with any of the OEM Glock barrels. However, I was getting to the point where I wanted the wring out every bit of accuracy that I can with my Glocks so I went with the drop-in KKM barrel route. Just for reference, I routinely shoot in the mid 90s on a 10 round B8 target slow fire at 25 yards so I know when it's me, or when it's not me.
The G19 with KKM barrel shoots tighter groups that the OEM barrel did. I can produce 2" groups at 25 yards, standing, off hand with this gun. The OEM barrel consistently shot about 3" groups so it wasn't a huge improvement, but I got the KKM barrel at a good price, so it was worth it to me.
Just for curiosity, I took the barrel that the KKM replaced, and put it into another G19 that routinely shoots 3-4" groups at 25 yards. The barrel to slide fit was much more tight than with the original barrel. The results were that this combination produced a gun that shoots 2.5-3" groups at 25 yards.
So yes, there are variations within OEM parts, and if the tolerances stack in your favor, things work out pretty well.
acaixguard
08-17-14, 13:27
I have 4 Glocks at the moment, and have previously owned 3 others. I have never had any of them have any barrel issues with a standard barrel. It's most likely the shooter, not the gun. Remember that the 19 and 17 have different triggers due to import regulations. Have you tried locking it in a vice and shooting it? If it is shooting to a different area than you are aiming, adjust the sights.
A new barrel should only be considered if consistency is an issue. IE, if they all hit the same area, but not where you aimed, then the barrel is consistent, you or the sights need the fixing.
I have the same triggers in my G17 and G19. The first thing I do with any compact Glock is to replace the trigger with a smooth faced one.
Try changing the locking block and or slide lock. Not all parts are exactly the same. They fall into windows of tolerances. Some on the high end, some, low end, etc...
This is correct. Purchase a few slide locks and try them out. I wouldnt replace sights or get rid of an otherwise decent barrel until trying this.
Two questions on Glock match barrels
1. Do they change the point of impact at all? For example, if I have a Gen4 G17 that shoots a bit to the left when the sights are perfectly centered, could a new barrel potentially make it shoot center?
2. For the barrels were "some fitting may be required", is this an average person can take on, and if so, where are the right spots that need filing?
Thanks in advance!
1. Generally this is a right handed shooter pushing the trigger (VS pulling the trigger straight back). So I don't think there is a barrel issue here.
2. Depends. What are your mechanical skills? Not everyone should be allowed to own tools. Generally speaking, the fitting is going to be done with a hand file. You might need to remove some off the width and length. If you have never practiced "filing straight" it is a skill that has to be learned over and time and practice.
C4
Before buying an aftermarket barrel, the first thing that needs to be done is to measure the fit between the barrel hood and the slide. Use a feeler gauge for this. If it is over .004 then it is a loose fitting barrel. A drop in barrel might indeed fix your issues. So always know what you are dealing with first before spending money on something else.
If your Glock has after market sights on it, there is a good chance that they could be off. There is really only one real good way to check. Get a vise, some smooth, straight vice liners (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/vises-accessories/vise-jaws/bronze-vise-jaws-prod380.aspx) and some calipers. Place the slide just below the top lip of the liners. Then, measure with the calipers from the edge of the rear sight to the flat edge of the liner. Then do the same on the other side.
I cannot tell you how many sights we see that "look" centered but actually are not. Most people don't notice as they either; A. Don't shoot well enough to tell or B. Don't shoot far enough to notice subtle sight shift.
C4
acaixguard
08-17-14, 16:31
I used calipers to measure against a straight edge to the sides of the slights. So when I installed them they were almost perfectly centered (within .001 of each other).
I can accept that I may be pushing the gun to the left, if I did that with every Glock I shoot. However, out of 3 Glocks I have shot in the same timeframe, I only group to the left with my Gen 4 G17. With centered sights on my G19 and my friend's Gen 3 G17, I was spot on. Thus I am not convinced that I am doing something differently only when I shoot my G17.
Grant, the most filing I have done is fitting sights. Would barrel fitting take much more filing skill beyond this? Thanks for your help!
I scrolled back and the missing part of all this is, how far off are your hits and at what distance?
I would definitely start with the locking block and slide lock to see if there's a change before I would invest in an aftermarket barrel.
MSparks909
08-17-14, 23:47
Why go through changing the locking block, pins and potentially the barrel if drifting the sights fixed the issue (for no additional cost I might add)? I'm pretty OCD about having my sights centered as well, but it doesn't make sense to throw money away hoping that one of the suggestions will fix the problem so the sights can be "properly centered."
I installed a set of Ameriglo Defoors on my recently purchased Gen 3 17. Centered them with a caliper and benched the gun at 25 yards this past Friday. Had some 3-4" 5-shot groups from Tula, PMC, WWB and Speer GD 124+P's. Some loads grouped better than others, but what I noticed is that they were all roughly in between the 8 and 9 ring on the left side of a NRA B8 target. Drifted the sights .020" to the right and re-zeroed today. Spot on windage wise. Yeah, they're off center now, but the important thing is the gun is now shooting true. I also know when I jerk the trigger, so I'm pretty confident it's not me.
We have no issues adjusting the windage on our fixed irons/BUIS, so why should pistols be any different?
I used calipers to measure against a straight edge to the sides of the slights. So when I installed them they were almost perfectly centered (within .001 of each other).
I can accept that I may be pushing the gun to the left, if I did that with every Glock I shoot. However, out of 3 Glocks I have shot in the same timeframe, I only group to the left with my Gen 4 G17. With centered sights on my G19 and my friend's Gen 3 G17, I was spot on. Thus I am not convinced that I am doing something differently only when I shoot my G17.
Grant, the most filing I have done is fitting sights. Would barrel fitting take much more filing skill beyond this? Thanks for your help!
Yes, I think it does.
It is possible that your barrel is not concentric or your slide is not square and true. I guess you really won't know until you change out the barrel.
C4
Why go through changing the locking block, pins and potentially the barrel if drifting the sights fixed the issue (for no additional cost I might add)? I'm pretty OCD about having my sights centered as well, but it doesn't make sense to throw money away hoping that one of the suggestions will fix the problem so the sights can be "properly centered."
I installed a set of Ameriglo Defoors on my recently purchased Gen 3 17. Centered them with a caliper and benched the gun at 25 yards this past Friday. Had some 3-4" 5-shot groups from Tula, PMC, WWB and Speer GD 124+P's. Some loads grouped better than others, but what I noticed is that they were all roughly in between the 8 and 9 ring on the left side of a NRA B8 target. Drifted the sights .020" to the right and re-zeroed today. Spot on windage wise. Yeah, they're off center now, but the important thing is the gun is now shooting true. I also know when I jerk the trigger, so I'm pretty confident it's not me.
We have no issues adjusting the windage on our fixed irons/BUIS, so why should pistols be any different?
You don't need to "jerk the trigger" on a Glock to shoot left. It happens even with a good trigger press (or what you believe to be a good trigger press). Because of the Glock grip angle, your finger is more likely to "push" VS pull the trigger to the rear. I would have someone else shoot your Glock (known good shooter) just to double check something else isn't wrong with the gun.
C4
acaixguard
08-18-14, 09:47
Is it at all possible that one would push the gun left only on Gen 4? That's the only thing I can think of. The fact that I can shoot center with 2 other Gen 3's very consistently tells me that either my Gen 4 is shooting left, or I am slightly gripping my Gen 4 differently.
Same goes for my buddy, who is also a pretty good shooter (shoots center with his Glocks consistently). He only has Gen 3s though, and when he shot my Gen 4, same results as I got.
Is it at all possible that one would push the gun left only on Gen 4? That's the only thing I can think of. The fact that I can shoot center with 2 other Gen 3's very consistently tells me that either my Gen 4 is shooting left, or I am slightly gripping my Gen 4 differently.
Same goes for my buddy, who is also a pretty good shooter (shoots center with his Glocks consistently). He only has Gen 3s though, and when he shot my Gen 4, same results as I got.
You're over thinking this. Bench the gun and shoot it with good ammo. Have a friend shoot it if you don't trust yourself. If the windage is off, then drift the rear sight and problem solved.
If you keep getting windage issues after you drifted the sight, then the problem is you.
MSparks909
08-18-14, 10:19
Is it at all possible that one would push the gun left only on Gen 4? That's the only thing I can think of. The fact that I can shoot center with 2 other Gen 3's very consistently tells me that either my Gen 4 is shooting left, or I am slightly gripping my Gen 4 differently.
Same goes for my buddy, who is also a pretty good shooter (shoots center with his Glocks consistently). He only has Gen 3s though, and when he shot my Gen 4, same results as I got.
Using the M backstrap so the grip size is the same as your Gen 3s?
MSparks909
08-18-14, 10:19
You don't need to "jerk the trigger" on a Glock to shoot left. It happens even with a good trigger press (or what you believe to be a good trigger press). Because of the Glock grip angle, your finger is more likely to "push" VS pull the trigger to the rear. I would have someone else shoot your Glock (known good shooter) just to double check something else isn't wrong with the gun.
C4
Thanks for explaining the "why" as to why they sometimes shoot left. Haven't heard that before.
acaixguard
08-18-14, 10:38
You're over thinking this. Bench the gun and shoot it with good ammo. Have a friend shoot it if you don't trust yourself. If the windage is off, then drift the rear sight and problem solved.
If you keep getting windage issues after you drifted the sight, then the problem is you.
Already done with consistent left results. Now it shoots spot on after drifting my rear .020 to the right.
Is it at all possible that one would push the gun left only on Gen 4? That's the only thing I can think of. The fact that I can shoot center with 2 other Gen 3's very consistently tells me that either my Gen 4 is shooting left, or I am slightly gripping my Gen 4 differently.
Same goes for my buddy, who is also a pretty good shooter (shoots center with his Glocks consistently). He only has Gen 3s though, and when he shot my Gen 4, same results as I got.
Could very well be as the grip is different on the GEN 4 from the GEN 3.
You would need to shoot another GEN 4 to tell.
C4
OP, sounds like you got your issue worked out. I was having a hard time with my G23, you can read about it here. Unlike your situation, mine was all over the place... not consistent at all.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?150014-Having-a-hard-time-with-my-G23&highlight=
I ended up selling the gun rather than keep trying potential Band-Aid fixes. I might get another one some day and chalk it up to a lemon, or I might just get a G19... or not bother to replace it at all. Time will tell...
Already done with consistent left results. Now it shoots spot on after drifting my rear .020 to the right.
Tolerance stacking could require you to adjust your rear sight off center to zero the pistol. I have adjusted sights on the line with as many as 25 shooters and several of them had to be pushed off center to zero the sights with the ammunition we issued.
There is another possibility. When I installed a different barrel on my Glock 22, muzzle velocity increased with the same ammunition. POI shifted and I had to adjust the sights to zero the weapon. I pulled my data book and noticed that I had to move the rear sight 0.030" to the right to shift the POI 4" to the right at 25 yards.
It is not that unusual for this to happen. As long as the rear sight is reasonably close to the center of the dovetail, it should not be a problem.
To the original question, I've installed a Wilson match barrell on my G17, gen 2 and a Lonewolf on my G23 gen3. Neither required fitting nor did they change the point of impact. Groups tightened up with the Wilson barrel (by 2" at 12 yds.).
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