View Full Version : 22 Cal Bullet for anti-personnel, non military application.
I understand the military is restricted to type and design of bullets for use against people. For say a SHTF situation what would be the best bullets to handload for anti-personnel use? I was thinking of something like along the lines of a Nosler partition 60gr or the Barnes TTSX 62gr.
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?91-Terminal-Ballistic-Information
Previously there was an amazing contributor to these forums. DocKGR, he was banned and he took down some stickies that were some of the most useful info on this site.
You may be able to browse that sub forum and find some ok knowledge. But I'd honestly search google for "DocKGR' and see what forum he calls home now and look through there.
If my memory serves me Things like 77gr SMK and 75gr hornady have great fragmentation but not good on barriers. Barrier blind rounds are typically bonded soft points, Speer Gold dots often being mentioned.
Good luck!
Edit to add: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#.223 This is what you are after and is very sad it is no longer here.
If your are reloading there are lots of options. The ones you listed are great. The nosler partition at close ranges acts like mk318. The front expands quickly leaving fragments while the rear portion keeps going. There are other options like the trophy bonded bear claws, nosler bonded performance, gold dot/fusion, all the barnes tsx/ttsx bullets. There is a lot of options for 22cal bullets that perform great.
I understand the military is restricted to type and design of bullets for use against people. For say a SHTF situation what would be the best bullets to handload for anti-personnel use? I was thinking of something like along the lines of a Nosler partition 60gr or the Barnes TTSX 62gr.
If you can afford the Barnes tactical line, then hands down. My choice is the 64gr Nosler Bonded Performance. At least until I can get a similar round for my Grendel.
For the gredel look at the 100grain tac tx from barnes, or the 130 swift scirocco. Both should work well for the grendel. The bonded performance line from nosler has a 6.8 bullet so the grendel might come. If it doesnt the two I listed should work the 130 might be a little heavy. Most of the bonded 6.5 bullets are designed for larger 6.5 cartridges. But the barnes bullet looks like a great option.
For the gredel look at the 100grain tac tx from barnes, or the 130 swift scirocco. Both should work well for the grendel. The bonded performance line from nosler has a 6.8 bullet so the grendel might come. If it doesnt the two I listed should work the 130 might be a little heavy. Most of the bonded 6.5 bullets are designed for larger 6.5 cartridges. But the barnes bullet looks like a great option.
Those are great options for a home defense gun when they can be found. For SHTF you need bulk and those are out of my price range for that role.
God, I hope you're right about the 6.5mm bonded performance round.
If your barrel is 1/8 twist or better, I would say something of the 77gr variety or the Barnes 70gr TSX/TAC-X. The Brown Tip ammo SF's use is supposedly a Barnes 70gr TAC-X loaded to 5.56 pressure. Definitely the heavier the better though.
FWIW, my 1/9 twist barrel shoots 77gr SMK handloads great at shorter distances, but YMMV. I use these as my HD/SHTF loads.
I shoot a lot of 60 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip around the house because it doesn't ruin fur like a soft point (it rarely exits). I have about 1k of the 64 gr Nosler BSBs loaded up, which would be preferred as a SHTF projectile over a plastic tip bullet due to its performance through glass and barriers. Since you don't seem to be worried about saving fur, I'd pick a soft point bullet such as the Nosler BSB, Winchester PP, or Sierra Game king.
I shoot a lot of 60 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip around the house because it doesn't ruin fur like a soft point (it rarely exits). I have about 1k of the 64 gr Nosler BSBs loaded up, which would be preferred as a SHTF projectile over a plastic tip bullet due to its performance through glass and barriers. Since you don't seem to be worried about saving fur, I'd pick a soft point bullet such as the Nosler BSB, Winchester PP, or Sierra Game king.
Is it true that soft point bullets like the gold dots can lead up the feed ramps over a few hundred rounds?
Is it true that soft point bullets like the gold dots can lead up the feed ramps over a few hundred rounds?
The fusion and gd are protected iirc. The jacket extends to the tip to prevent that.
Is it true that soft point bullets like the gold dots can lead up the feed ramps over a few hundred rounds?
I went through a case of black hills 55gr soft point in a class one weekend and didn't notice any lead on the feed ramps or elsewhere. As the poster above mentioned, if you go with gold dots, TBBC, or the Nosler BSB the jacket covers all but the front of the tip. I've shot a ton of winchester PP which has a lot of exposed lead compared to the bonded bullets and never saw an issue.
Howdy,
Previously there was an amazing contributor to these forums. DocKGR, he was banned and he took down some stickies that were some of the most useful info on this site.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#.223 This is what you are after and is very sad it is no longer here.
Wow! There's a lot of great info in that link.
Just curious as to why Doc was banned?
Paul
thanks for the info on soft points, its comforting to know since i recently acquired 1000 rounds of GD's in a trade at a smoking price.
The 77 gr SMK and Nosler CC are brilliant soft tissue bullets from contact out to 800 plus yards. Incredible fragmentation with deep penetration.
The 77 gr SMK and Nosler CC are brilliant soft tissue bullets from contact out to 800 plus yards. Incredible fragmentation with deep penetration.
I've had really good luck on varmints with the 75gr "Mil-Spec Surplus" OTM bullets from Wideners. Wideners had 5000 of them a year ago listed incorrectly for $210...... I bought 5,000..... should have got 10,000. They caught on quick and sent an email to everyone who ordered them that said more or less "congrats on getting a bargain, that won't happen again, ever"
I've had really good luck on varmints with the 75gr "Mil-Spec Surplus" OTM bullets from Wideners. Wideners had 5000 of them a year ago listed incorrectly for $210...... I bought 5,000..... should have got 10,000. They caught on quick and sent an email to everyone who ordered them that said more or less "congrats on getting a bargain, that won't happen again, ever"
How did you load them? Can you provide muzzle velocity out of a particular barrel length?
Those were just PRVI psuedo Match 75s. They works pretty good for a bulk heavy projectile round. I loaded a few cans for SHTF stash ammo with 23.4 gr XBR.
I never got them to shoot sub MOA, but they did frag alright. They make a nicer stash ammo than M855 for example, and will have a closer trajectory to 77 gr OTM loads too.
Howdy mark,
The 77 gr SMK and Nosler CC are brilliant soft tissue bullets from contact out to 800 plus yards. Incredible fragmentation with deep penetration.
What twist and length barrel did you use. What was shot with these bullets?
Paul
I think I shot an 11.5" 1/7 twist barrel. And my back yard, very crude water jug test seemed to echo what I heard DocKGR had to say... They almost penetrate too well.
Those were just PRVI psuedo Match 75s. They works pretty good for a bulk heavy projectile round. I loaded a few cans for SHTF stash ammo with 23.4 gr XBR.
I never got them to shoot sub MOA, but they did frag alright. They make a nicer stash ammo than M855 for example, and will have a closer trajectory to 77 gr OTM loads too.
HAHAHA! Actually I'm pretty sure I got my load data from you from a year ago. Getting 2750fps out of a 16in BCM Midlength. I started with the 23.4 and worked up. Forget what I'm at now.
I used them for 200 plus at 3gun events, but my 55's are working good enough for that so I may just load up a couple thousand rounds for SHTF stash ammo.
What is you load for 77 SMK's with XBR? If that's what you are using?
Howdy,
I like the PRVI 75gr Match bullets too but I've never been able to get them to frag. What were you shooting them into to get them to frag?
I've loaded a bunch up that subsonic using pistol powder and shoot them single shot through my CAR-15 w/ suppressor and they definitely have a heavier punch at 175yds ( I have a 6" swinger at 175yds ) than any .22LR load or any subsonic load with 55 or 62gr bullets.
Plus they are sub-MOA in my CAR using BL(C)2 powder. They I wish I had 5,000 of them.
Paul
I like the PRVI 75gr Match bullets too but I've never been able to get them to frag. What were you shooting them into to get them to frag?
A two gallon water jug. PRVI on the right, Nosler 77 CC on the left.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/aaa_zpscb56233b.jpg
Just curious as to why Doc was banned?
Me, too. I used to read his posts, and they profoundly influenced my decisions regarding caliber and ammunition choice.
WTF?
Docgkr was banned over an AAR from a hackathorn class IIRC. If you do a search there were quite a few threads right after it all went down. If you go to pistolforums.com docgkr is very active there.
Me, too. I used to read his posts, and they profoundly influenced my decisions regarding caliber and ammunition choice.
WTF?
It was this one. There was major drama that followed and has since been scrubbed.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=133869
Technically, he's not banned but doubtful he'll ever be back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Howdy,
Docgkr was banned over an AAR from a hackathorn class IIRC. If you do a search there were quite a few threads right after it all went down. If you go to pistolforums.com docgkr is very active there.
Gee, I've been banned from that site. I had a disagreement over the cops that were killed in the CiCi's out in Vegas.
Hey Mark! Your pic didn't work.
Paul
A two gallon water jug. PRVI on the right, Nosler 77 CC on the left.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/aaa_zpscb56233b.jpg
Pic is dead.
Pic is dead.
Odd. I can see it. (I think I moved it to my ammo/reloading folder after posting it) How's this...
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aaa_zpscb56233b.jpg
Howdy,
Odd. I can see it. (I think I moved it to my ammo/reloading folder after posting it) How's this...
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aaa_zpscb56233b.jpg
Holy bat crap! I didn't think either bullet would do anything. I expected both to be nothing more than a heavy weight solid. Boy was I wrong.
I'm guessing these were shot from your 11.5" 1/7 twist barrel that you mentioned earlier in the thread.
What type powder and charge did you use?
I guess I need to do a little more field testing.
Paul
Odd. I can see it. (I think I moved it to my ammo/reloading folder after posting it) How's this...
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aaa_zpscb56233b.jpg
I see it now. You have any frag pics of a 77 SMK?
I'll have to post the SMK later from the house. Photobucket is filtered at work for whatever reason....
The SMK is just a little less scrambled than the Nosler. Either are incredible. Powder charge is 23.4 gr XBR with Wolf/Tula primer.
The SMK is just a little less scrambled than the Nosler. Either are incredible. Powder charge is 23.4 gr XBR with Wolf/Tula primer.
Using the same load for 77's as the 75's? That's genius, I guess there wouldn't be much of a difference in velocity with it being on 2gr difference in weight. Length is probably the same or close enough to the same as well.
Using the same load for 77's as the 75's? That's genius, I guess there wouldn't be much of a difference in velocity with it being on 2gr difference in weight. Length is probably the same or close enough to the same as well.
That's the idea behind it. I replaced all my 55 gr XM193 ammo in my stash with 75s. I may have to shoot them back to back at 500 yards or so to see exactly what the POI variance might be.
That prvi bullet actually expanded rather then frag. If the jacket was bonded that would be the perfect bullet for what I want. Heavy, bonded, with great expansion.
Yeah. I should shoot a few more of them to see if it opens like that consistently. It looks more like a hollow point than a real OTM....
Yeah it would be nice to see if they consistently open up like that. If they do I would consider picking some up.
PaulnPats M-4
08-22-14, 11:39
I've been using the DRT 62 grainers, works for me
Howdy,
I finally dug out a a box of ammo that I loaded with PRVI Partizan 75gr BTHP-Match, 24.0gr of BL(C)2 powder, CCI SRP-Mag and Rem brass.
I shot it into a 8"x12"x 18" cardboard box that was liner with a trash bag and filled with water. I used a water filled thick walled 2-gallon to catch the bullet if it made it though the box, which it did.
Here's a pic of the bullet:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd248/stengun/1408915286_zpsa487bda4.jpg
The lead core made it into the jug but the jacket fraged and never made it to the jug. The box literally blow up and all the fraged pieces were lost and the only thing I could find was the lead core in the pic.
In my pervious test the bullet didn't expand and acted like a solid. I now believe that the plastic jugs that I was using were plugging the HP and preventing it from expanding. I had this same problem with the same jugs last year with both 9mm and .45acp loads.
My guess is that the soft plastic of the jug stretched over the end of the bullet which must have prevented them from expanding. That's the main reason I used the water filled cardboard box.
Paul
P.S. This test was done at 20yds and I need to retest the bullet at 100 yards.
anachronism
08-24-14, 17:50
I use 64 gr Winchester Powerpoints. Not a cheap bullet by any stretch of the imagination, but is is factory loaded for deer hunters, and the weight allows use in rifles with 1/9 or 1/10 twist barrels.
Howdy,
I use 64 gr Winchester Powerpoints. Not a cheap bullet by any stretch of the imagination, but is is factory loaded for deer hunters, and the weight allows use in rifles with 1/9 or 1/10 twist barrels.
That load has been around a long time and I know of a lot o deer and coyotes that's been killed using it in a Mini-14.
I need to test my handload with the PRVI 75gr at 100 yards.
Paul
vicious_cb
08-24-14, 21:39
Howdy,
I like the PRVI 75gr Match bullets too but I've never been able to get them to frag. What were you shooting them into to get them to frag?
I've loaded a bunch up that subsonic using pistol powder and shoot them single shot through my CAR-15 w/ suppressor and they definitely have a heavier punch at 175yds ( I have a 6" swinger at 175yds ) than any .22LR load or any subsonic load with 55 or 62gr bullets.
Plus they are sub-MOA in my CAR using BL(C)2 powder. They I wish I had 5,000 of them.
Paul
I've water tested the prvi 75gr as well with plastic jugs and never had failures to fragment. My recovered bullets looked very similar to mark's. These are factory loads as well.
Howdy vicious,
I've water tested the prvi 75gr as well with plastic jugs and never had failures to fragment. My recovered bullets looked very similar to mark's. These are factory loads as well.
I think the problem I had was strictly the jugs I was using at the time. In the last 35 years I have shot 100's of rounds, probably closer to a 1,000 into water jugs and usually they performed the way I thought they should.
That's why when the PRVI 75gr bullet didn't expand I figured that they wouldn't until I saw Mark's post.
Paul
shark101au
09-20-14, 10:54
I've just got some Z-Max 50gr handloads for my SBR, they seem to work ok.
If the zmax is to defend your home and family you should look into a better option. Nothing designed for varmints is going to be adequate for self defense. You would be better of with a heavy otm, or any of the bonded soft points.
shark101au
09-21-14, 15:06
If the zmax is to defend your home and family you should look into a better option. Nothing designed for varmints is going to be adequate for self defense. You would be better of with a heavy otm, or any of the bonded soft points.
You may have a point there. I'll switch them out for some 69gr SMKs I have. For the record the primary home defense weapon we have is a 45 with Federal 230gr HSTs.
PaulnPats M-4
09-22-14, 10:31
I just bought some DRT 62 grain bullets, very accurate off the bench, haven't tried them in the box yet, pretty impressive on Youtube, we'll see
The 63 grain Sierra #1370 bullet works real well on deer.
You may have a point there. I'll switch them out for some 69gr SMKs I have. For the record the primary home defense weapon we have is a 45 with Federal 230gr HSTs.
Even though its not your primary if you ever need it you want to make sure it has an adequate load. Living in ca my primary is a shotgun, but I make sure the ar is loaded with something I feel will do the job. Right now it is barnes 55tsx.
Even though its not your primary if you ever need it you want to make sure it has an adequate load. Living in ca my primary is a shotgun, but I make sure the ar is loaded with something I feel will do the job. Right now it is barnes 55tsx.
Even if it is a TSX, you trust a 55gr bullet to stop someone?
Lawnchair 04
09-23-14, 20:53
i have 50gr tsx or 62gr tsx loaded in my go to carbine for home defense at any given time. if i could get my hands on the 70's then i keep those loaded up but i dont feel out gunned with the 50 or 62's. longest distance in my home or front yard is maybe 35 feet, shot placement is my only worry not velocity of the round by the time it makes it to the target. At my distances i dont think he/she will know what a 12 grain difference feels like. Not starting an argument but to answer your question yes i feel a 55 gr tsx will stop someone.
i have 50gr tsx or 62gr tsx loaded in my go to carbine for home defense at any given time. if i could get my hands on the 70's then i keep those loaded up but i dont feel out gunned with the 50 or 62's. longest distance in my home or front yard is maybe 35 feet, shot placement is my only worry not velocity of the round by the time it makes it to the target. At my distances i dont think he/she will know what a 12 grain difference feels like. Not starting an argument but to answer your question yes i feel a 55 gr tsx will stop someone.
For HD/SHTF (and hunting), I trust a bullet on the heavier end (69-77gr) more than any lighter bullet. I've always had the school of thought that the heaviest bullet that reliably feeds and shoots well in your specific firearm has the advantage.
I loaded up some 77gr SMK's over XBR as my primary defense load and strangely enough it shoots lights out from my 1/9 CL barrel. I feel the 70gr TSX is the best bullet for defense, but I doubt my old 1/9 barrel will handle them very well (of I would definitely use them)... that is a long a$$ bullet!
Lawnchair 04
09-23-14, 21:46
I totally agree about the heavier rounds, but i still have confidence in the lighter tsx rounds. if i couldnt have a tsx then it would be 77gr nosler's or 77gr smk's handloaded or maybe one of SSA's 64gr ppt rounds. I dont expect the little 50 grain tsx to crumple a grown man like he got hit with zues's thunderbolt but thats the beauty of an autoloading rifle :), theres 29 more on tap if need be. That being said i am working on a stockpile of mk262 clones for my recce rifle for target/shtf/hunting.
The tsx bullet is different weight is not as important as it is with the otms. Docgkr says for up close any of the tsx's are great, but if its for 250+ yards thats when you want the 70.
I have plenty of 70s I just have been lazy and have not loaded them. One thing I have no doubt of is the 55 will do the job if I do. I actualy would rather have a lightweight expanding bullet than a heavey fragmenting bullet that is yaw dependent. I know the matchkings yaw very reliably, but if the dont it will just leave a 22 cal hole.
I just trust expansion more than fragmenting, and there are only 3 expanding heavy bullets I know of.
I know the matchkings yaw very reliably, but if the dont it will just leave a 22 cal hole.
I just trust expansion more than fragmenting, and there are only 3 expanding heavy bullets I know of.
A 77 OTM is a yaw monster. If you can get that thing to stay stable and NOT yaw in soft tissue, you can make a watch.
I might try to load one to subsonic and water jug it just to see what it would do. We tried shooting a jug at 500 yards Saturday, but our spot is very flat and it was too hard to see the jug and spotting gong with all the plant life in the way. I ended up taking a shot and hitting the bottom of the jug and only getting a few inches of water on the bullet before it punched out of the bottom of the jug.
I know the heavy otms yaw reliably. I just have a hard time trusting a bullet that is dependent on anything but velocity. With expanding bullets I know as long as it is going xxxx velocity it will expand. With the heavy otms they have to be going xxxx velocity and yaw.
So its not that they dont get the job done, I just think that expansion is more reliable. I do like the idea of the new tipped matchking. My ideal bullet would be a bonded tipped matchking, or a 22 cal swift A-frame that weighs 70 grains.
If your trying to put a matchking into water at distance get a large cardboard box. Fill trash bags with water, and fill the box with bags. Now you have a much bigger target. You can use it a few times before the box is ruined. Im saving milk jugs right now to do some testing at 200 yards.
If your trying to put a matchking into water at distance get a large cardboard box. Fill trash bags with water, and fill the box with bags.
I'd still have to haul the water.... so... Plus.. If I can't hit a waterjug a 5 hunnit with a damned bolt gun with a Nightforce, then I might as well turn gay and shoot 3 gun. :sarcastic:
Next time, when I'm not totally pissed by bugs, bushes, and humidity, I'll shoot out of the bed of the pickup so I can see the damned thing.
I didn't think about hauling the water. I just drag out the hose and fill up what I need to.
I didn't think about hauling the water. I just drag out the hose and fill up what I need to.
Did a few low velocity tests yesterday, and the 77 doesn't frag at low velocity. I shot a round just over super and one under super and they both penetrated deeper than a full powdered load.
The bullet turns sideways but doesn't break apart.
I think they require around 2300 fps for them to fragment.
Even if it is a TSX, you trust a 55gr bullet to stop someone?
The 50 gr tsx is one of the best performing GP 5.56 rounds out right now, it's just really expensive. It's better than the 70gr tsx at closer ranges. Weight is generally more=better, but the BH load is a rare exception. That said, I don't think the 55 was anything great, but ok.
Howdy,
I usually hate to bring up an old thread but.......
Here's a video were I shot a gallon jug of red water with a 75gr Prvi Partizan match bullet. 24.5gr of BL(C)2 powder from a 16 1/2" barrel @40 yards.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=iOdUhcEf6kQ
The bullet definitely expanded when it hit the jug. I wish I would have used a trap to catch the bullet but I didn't.
Paul
I'd like to download a few to see if there's an expansion threshold velocity.
mastiffhound
10-27-14, 23:46
The 77 gr SMK and Nosler CC are brilliant soft tissue bullets from contact out to 800 plus yards. Incredible fragmentation with deep penetration.
Nosler is my absolute favorite, I use the 69gr Custom Comps because they are very consistent in both my 1/7 ARs and my 1/9 Mini. I also like their Varmageddon 55gr tipped bullets. I don't buy anything but Nosler for reloading now and I'm down to the last couple boxes of Hornady. The Noslers just grouped better overall between the ARs and Mini than the Hornady.
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