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Hi:
I need some advice from people familiar with reloading for Noveske barrels. I just put together a 16" 556 Mod 0 upper. It shoots MOA with 62gr Fusion MSR and clocks 2830 FPS.
The problem is my handloads. I used up a pound of precious Varget to realize this upper likes the loads hot. For example, with the 64gr Nosler BSB I'm hitting the sweet spot beginning with 26.5grs and 2850 FPS. With 77gr Nosler's the sweet spot starts at 24.5grs and it's not even hitting 2600 FPS. I'm up to 25.3grs with 69SMK and it still shoots like shit with a huge SD. I'm using weight sorted LC with #41 primers and hand weighing each charge, checking it twice. No pressure signs. I'm going to shoot 26.9grs with the 64's tomorrow to see if I can get the group tighter. It's about MOA at 6.5-26.7grs.
Is that what you see in yours, that it needs more powder than usual?
Thanks
Be aware that you will typically see multiple nodes of accuracy in a ladder type load development. My bet is if you keep moving up from 24.5 w/ the 77s - you'll hit another accuracy node at a higher velocity. Also keep in mind that one of the issues w/ Varget is that it varies lot to lot and over the years it has required shooters to bump up their loads to keep the velocities up. This was a huge issue with the Palma team a few years back. Some loads had to be bumped 2 full grains. Try Rel15, Tac or H332 and see what you get.
Also - I am in the middle of refining loads for a Noveske bbl on my NM rifle - shooting a 3 x 600 on Sunday. My Noveske is a 7.5t that I chambered and a curious aspect was that I had to use a .2175 pilot. This is considered a "tight" bore. A Douglas or CLE bbl will generally take a .2185 - .2190 pilot. Tight bores generally give you a bit more velocity with less powder. Right now I am running 24.0 Rel 15 behind 80SMK's. Velocity is running 2753 avg w/ SD's in the high 8's ES for 20 rds runs in the low 20's. FWIW.
Thanks for your suggestions. I bumped up the charges and the 69SMK got down to SD 8 with 25.7grs of Varget and the 77 is getting better with SD 19 at 24.9grs. I'm gonna try 25.1 and 25.3 if the bullet nose stays intact. These bullets are soft and swage into the seater stem.
Try Rel15, Tac or H332 and see what you get.
XBR 8208 is also got a better metering and bulk density than Varget. There's many easier choices than Varget for most .223 bullets.
Varget is a great powder, but is not very user-friendly, especially for bulk loading. There are much better options like XBR and H322.
...and it still shoots like shit with a huge SD. I'm using weight sorted LC with #41 primers...
Based off of my personal experience, I'd ditch the #41s & save them for blaster ammo with ball powder. I've heard other people using them without issue but I just think there's better primer options out there for precision ammo.
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Based off of my personal experience, I'd ditch the #41s & save them for blaster ammo with ball powder.
Yep. I'd run them for Defense stuff where great accuracy isn't the top priority. But for target shooting, I subscribe to German Salazar's approach to having the mildest primer that will reliably work.
All of my NM 600yd ammo - is loaded using LC brass and M41 (GI) primers. I just shot a 600 yd match on Sunday and the rifle / ammo held X ring elevation at 600 with irons. I have never ever used / won't waste the time playing with primers for 600 yd stuff. Same same for in close. Standard primers or whatever is in the brass. My 600 yd ammo routinely posts single digit SD's. I do go to a BR primer for 1K work though.
All of my NM 600yd ammo - is loaded using LC brass and M41 (GI) primers. <snip>
My 600 yd ammo routinely posts single digit SD's. I do go to a BR primer for 1K work though.
What powder do you like for that ammo?
What powder do you like for that ammo?
Mark,
The 600yd stuff has gone through some iterations and development that have yielded outstanding results. The GO-TO for years was a load referred to as V-8, it was basically LC primed brass, 80SMK & a fair amount of VV N-135. Over the years, 135 changed and became too fast. The next generation of 600yd ammo was known as R80. Same everything except for the powder, which was Rel-15. Also, early on Varget was hugely popular, but this too changed over time and there were significant variances from lot to lot. (IIRC - Varget is ADI 2208) Other powders that I have either shot or loaded include IMR4064, N140, N540, BLC(2), Win 748 and the powder that BHA loaded in their 80gr 223 ammo; TAC as I have been told.
Overall, I have always tried to stay awy from ball powders. Extensive tests run by the Army showed significicant increases in throat erosion from ball vs extruded (stick).
Honestly - I am probably stuck in my ways - there may be better powders out there, but for what I need and the accuracy that I want - Reloder 15 has ALWAYS performed. I don't see any need to reinvent the wheel on this one.
I'll also add that the list of components, does not make a match grade cartridge. There are many of considerations. For example - these 80gr loads were / are all set up to load the bullet so that the bottom edge of the bearing surface coincides with the neck / shoulder juncture in the case. If a long boat tail is seated too far down, initial case pressures will collapse the boat tail and distort the base - all bets are off for that shot to be on call. Correpondingly - the chamber or more precisely, the throat must be cut long enough to take advantage of this. Typically 80SMK loads were 2.500-2.530" OAL. Also, by keeping the bullet relatively high - the boat tail isn't compromised and the load density can be near max. This works well with bulky stick powders. Too much of something isn't always a good thing. 4064 for example SHOULD work great - but it is a huge PITA to meter consistently into a 223/556 case. (I have cases of XM223M1 from Federal, loaded with 4064 that weigh all over the map)
In the end - I always come back to Rel 15. It's been very very good to me.
I get SD's in the single digits. ES for 20rds runs in the low 20's. I go through a lot of extra prep & use a BR primer for 1K ammo and again, with Rel 15, I get low single digit SD's and ES's in the mid teens.
Hope this helps.
Interesting stuff. Yep. I don't mess with ball powders either.... Or at least.. I run them in the "house bitch" upper only. I also read that some of the balls leave hard carbon fouling in the middle of the barrel.
I have a silly large stash of powder here at the house. None of it ball.
Interesting stuff. Yep. I don't mess with ball powders either.... Or at least.. I run them in the "house bitch" upper only. I also read that some of the balls leave hard carbon fouling in the middle of the barrel.
I have a silly large stash of powder here at the house. None of it ball.
Somewhere - I'll have to dig them out, I have bore scope photos of test bbls that were shot with ball powder and bbls that were shot with extruded (stick) - striking difference in the throat erosion.
That'd be interesting to see.
That'd be interesting to see.
The ball powder test bbls looked like they had a rasp run into the throat - brutal. The extruded bbls were eroded - but it was more subtle / uniform. The xtruded bbls also showed evidence of fire cracking vs the tearing / abrasive pattern in the ball test bbls.
That's what kills me about some these "Match" ammo makers. Take PRVI and Black Hills for example.... Pull apart those rounds and you'll find ball powder in both.
And you have guys running this stuff in GOOD/Expensive Barrels... not knowing. Pull down a Federal GMM .308, and you'll find 4064 inside. I suppose you could make the steel case ammo argument that over the long haul, barrels aren't that costly, but still.... I cringe when running factory ammo with ball powder.
With as many extruded powders out there these days, why even run ball powder? A lot are short cut extruded at that, so they still drop similar to ball powder. Plus extruded is typically less temp sensitive. I mean I still run ball powder for 55gr plinking stuff, but for match or hunting bullets, strictly extruded.
I guess everyone is chasing the mystical Mk262 velocities TAC can get you... but velocity is not the end all of this equation.
My IMR 4064 powder is of the short stick variety, and meters well. Did they change it? Plus, although I keep hearing about the temperature sensitivity of the powder, it's produced some of the smallest groups I've ever had.
My IMR 4064 powder is of the short stick variety, and meters well. Did they change it? Plus, although I keep hearing about the temperature sensitivity of the powder, it's produced some of the smallest groups I've ever had.
IMR 4064 is the longest cut extruded I've ever loaded. Looks like small, black rice. Are you sure you're thinking of 4064?
Now that I compared 4064 to my other extruded powders, it isn't short. It just didn't look all that long by itself. It's about the same as 4350 but definitely longer than the others. I guess my point was that it was extruded and not ball. It meters fine in my Lyman motorized measure, but obviously not in my RCBS crank measure.
I've never tried it in anything but the Chargemaster. Even the chargemaster struggles with many extruded powders. They pile up at the end of the feed and when it just wants a kernel or two, 6 kernels will drop.
If you have not done the mc donalds straw trick yet it will help. It helps to keep clumps from forming. Over throws virtually go away. If you got 10-15 normally with the straw it will be 1-2. The mc d's straw is the perfect size.
If you have not done the mc donalds straw trick yet it will help. It helps to keep clumps from forming. Over throws virtually go away. If you got 10-15 normally with the straw it will be 1-2. The mc d's straw is the perfect size.
Interesting. I'm gonna have to give that a try. Thanks for the tip.
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Fudge me! I'd never heard of that ponzi scheme. I just google it, and can't wait to try it.
Fudge me! I'd never heard of that ponzi scheme. I just google it, and can't wait to try it.
Mark,
From another post I wrote - "The Chargemasters are fully programmable - in that you can change all of the speeds at which the dispensing unit runs. They go through a progression of high speed, to medium speed, then low speed then trickle. Basically the default settings switch from high speed to medium speed way too early. Same with the shift from medium to slow. I have 2 Chargemasters, and one is set up to run charges that are typically found in 223/556 cartridges; 23-28 grains. The othe one is set up (programed) to throw charges in medium sized cartridges; 308/762 in the 40-46gr range. Using the factory settings, a typical throw would take sometimes upwards of 45 seconds. Now, I can typically get a 223 charge done in about 16 seconds (average) The 308 loads will meter in about 18 seconds. There are a LOT of parameters that can be changed - some of which are a mystery. One big caution is that once they are changed, there isn't a "Return To Default" option so it is best to write down all of the original settings before you change anything. Additionally, the dispensing tube can be a problem - stick powder tends to clump at the end and when the unit "bumps" in trickle mode a big clump will drop and you'll get an over charge. The solution is to take a McDonalds straw and cut off a piece about a 1/2 inch long. On one end, cut little pie shaped wedges out all the way around - 6 or so. The end of the straw will look like a kings crown. Insert the straw straight cut end in first and push it in so the pointed "spikes" are flush with the end. This little mod smooth's out the flow and the little wedge cuts break up any clumps. It has basically eliminated over charges.
There are some other things too - basic set up stuff. Leveling is very important. Use a good filtered / protected power strip. Don't coil the power cord and obviously keep it away from drafts.
Like I wrote earlier - if there is interest, I can start another thread about reprogramming the Chargemaster."
I'm weird about messing with stuff like that. I've read about these nutbags on Accurateshooter doing this, but I'm the opposite kind of nut...
It works....trust me..... just bend over - I'll show you...
Famous last words.
Seriously - it'll cut your throw times by a half if not more.
There is only a few #'s to change - simple and if you write down the originals #'s you can still go back to the defaults.
I'm trying the straw scam first. If I start programming the CM... next thing you know, I'll be carrying a smart phone. :sarcastic:
I have not re programmed the cm yet, but rcbs will actually walk you through the process over the phone. They will also help you re set the factory settings if you go to far. I throw a charge then seat the bullet so im fine with factory speed.
I throw a charge then seat the bullet so im fine with factory speed.
Yeah... I either have the Arbor press running near by to seat bullets, or I'm chamfering necks while it's dispensing. Speed isn't an issue for me... it's the over throws that I could use improvement on.
Checking the setting with a check weight before dispensing each charge helps with ES. My 26.5gr Varget/#41 load has a SD of 9, consistent over three range sessions now, but it shoots 1"+ at 100 yards.
Yesterday morning I substituted Remington 7.5 for the #41 and got 35 FPS less velocity, twice the SD (17) and a half-inch group!
Funny how little SD can have to do with accuracy. Many guys are fixated on it and think low SD is the end all. On another forum several guys were posting scores of photos of their chrono readings, and talking them up. When asked which gave the best accuracy, they had no clue since they didn't shoot for groups. Kind of a waste of reloading components.
Checking the setting with a check weight before dispensing each charge helps with ES. My 26.5gr Varget/#41 load has a SD of 9, consistent over three range sessions now, but it shoots 1"+ at 100 yards.
Yesterday morning I substituted Remington 7.5 for the #41 and got 35 FPS less velocity, twice the SD (17) and a half-inch group!
J-Cat,
What bullet / bbl type (mfr & length) are you running? Also - what are your velocity numbers?
I'm using a Noveske stainless 16" barrel with that Mod 0 chamber. I'm using LC14 brass sorted into .5gr lots. I'm using a Magnetospeed chronograph. Nosler 64 BSB with 26.5grs of Varget with #41's gives me 2864 FPS. With 7.5's I'm getting 2829 FPS. I gotta dig up my other targets to get you results with 69's and 77's, but from what I recall I was getting 2575 FPS with 24grs of Varget and the 77's, and 2650 FPS with 25grs of Varget and the 69's.
OK, so I shot again this AM and the 26.3 gr Varget 64gr Nosler Remington 7.5 load shot .4 MOA at 2807 FPS with a SD of 11.
26.4 grs shot .6 MOA with a SD of 30.
Tried the Nosler 77 with 8208 and 7.5's: 23.4 SD 30 decreasing to SD 9 at 22.8grs but with bad accuracy. Maybe I'll go up to 23.6 and 23.8grs ?
OK, so I shot again this AM and the 26.3 gr Varget 64gr Nosler Remington 7.5 load shot .4 MOA at 2807 FPS with a SD of 11.
26.4 grs shot .6 MOA with a SD of 30.
Tried the Nosler 77 with 8208 and 7.5's: 23.4 SD 30 decreasing to SD 9 at 22.8grs but with bad accuracy. Maybe I'll go up to 23.6 and 23.8grs ?
What are you using for a sampling for your data? 10 shot strings or ???
How many shots are in each group that you are shooting for measurement?
Tried the Nosler 77 with 8208 and 7.5's: 23.4 SD 30 decreasing to SD 9 at 22.8grs but with bad accuracy. Maybe I'll go up to 23.6 and 23.8grs ?
23.8 is where I was blowing primers. 23.4 is where I settled.
What are you using for a sampling for your data? 10 shot strings or ???
How many shots are in each group that you are shooting for measurement?
5-shot groups.
23.8 is where I was blowing primers. 23.4 is where I settled.
Whith the Russian primers?
The 7.5's look like they were fired in a .38 Special.
Yep. The WOLF primers. Strange because I'd fired the load without issue with a different lot of powder.
I even pulled down a round thinking I was a full grain over or something stupid, but the ammo checked out.... I was getting blown primers and swipes and everything. With XBR, anytime I get much over 2750 fps out of a 20" barrel, it starts to get sketchy.
I'm seeing about 50 FPS velocity difference between 7.5's and #41's with 8208. That's a lot more than I see in Varget. 8208 seems to be more "explosive".
I'm seeing about 50 FPS velocity difference between 7.5's and #41's with 8208. That's a lot more than I see in Varget. 8208 seems to be more "explosive".
Which primers are faster?
Interesting. I found that the Russian primers with the Rust/Reddish colored compound ran like 30-40 fps faster, had an even Lower SD than the regular Wolf/Tula, and maybe shot a little bit better. (this is with H322 powder and 77 smks though)
Ok, so I blew a primer with 23.4grs 8208 and #41's with the 77 Nosler. 2650 FPS SD 30.
23.2grs shoots the best, .75 MOA, 2644 FPS SD 30. This charge shoots best with 7.5's as well, although way slower at 2577 SD 14.
23grs failed to lock the bolt back on the last shot. 2616 FPS SD 30. 1.5 MOA.
Funny that with #41's the SD stays the same at 30 but accuracy varies. With 7.5's the SD varies as does accuracy, but one has nothing to do with he other.
I'm going to try BR-4 and WSR next.
I don't like #41's with this powder.
Screw all those damned primers and get some TULA or WOLF. You should be seeing SDs of like 9.
Screw all those damned primers and get some TULA or WOLF. You should be seeing SDs of like 9.
I wasn't gonna say anything but I believe some handsome fella mentioned that back at post #7 already.
;)
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Which ones specifically? The 223, 223 Magnum, or 556 Magnum?
Which ones specifically? The 223, 223 Magnum, or 556 Magnum?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=148254
I've used the 5.56 magnum with good results but I've since sacked away 15k of both 223 & 5.56 magnums.
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I think that it is intersting to note that you seem to have an extremely narrow window - from failures to lock to blown primers.
That is an excessivley narrow environment to operate. What was ambient temp?
I think that it is intersting to note that you seem to have an extremely narrow window - from failures to lock to blown primers.
That is an excessivley narrow environment to operate. What was ambient temp?
Yep. There's something not right. Fast powders with hot primers and heavy bullets can do funny stuff... but 8208 isn't THAT fast.
I think that it is intersting to note that you seem to have an extremely narrow window - from failures to lock to blown primers.
That is an excessivley narrow environment to operate. What was ambient temp?
80 degrees
Ok, so I blew a primer with 23.4grs 8208 and #41's with the 77 Nosler. 2650 FPS SD 30.
23.2grs shoots the best, .75 MOA, 2644 FPS SD 30. This charge shoots best with 7.5's as well, although way slower at 2577 SD 14.
23grs failed to lock the bolt back on the last shot. 2616 FPS SD 30. 1.5 MOA.
Funny that with #41's the SD stays the same at 30 but accuracy varies. With 7.5's the SD varies as does accuracy, but one has nothing to do with he other.
I'm going to try BR-4 and WSR next.
I don't like #41's with this powder.
Give us some details on the rifle.. barrel length? gas length? buffer weight?
Out of all the CCI primers, I've had the best luck with 450's. 41's really aren't all that great for precision stuff.
Also...maybe a dumb question so I'll own it up front, but are you running these tests for accuracy AND velocity at the same time?
What I'm getting at is you said you were using a Magnetospeed chronograph - the one that attaches to the bbl?
See where I am going with this?
16" Noveske barrel Mod O chamber, Magnetospeed attached to barrel.
J-Cat,
So if I understand correctly - you are testing for accuracy with the Magnetospeed attached to the bbl?
I'd strongly suggest that you run accuracy tests without the chrono attached - you may see a measurable difference.
I'd also suggest a diffent powder as that window of +/- .2gr is kinda scary. You get into a hotter day and you'll start popping primers again.
I have not seen an accuracy difference on my bolt gun, so I figured I could do the same with the AR. I'll try the Nisler 64's without the chrony now that I have the load worked out.
I don't think it's the powder. It's the primers. I ran up to 23.8grs with 7.5's without a problem, although accuracy sucked.
as that window of +/- .2gr is kinda scary. You get into a hotter day and you'll start popping primers again.
It can't be that narrow. If he has the blown primer brass, I'd be interested to see if there were any swipes on the case head too. I'm thinking there was just a loose pocket and it happened to let go.
I'm thinking that too. It wasn't a dramatic leak, just a slight one but enough to make me stop using them. I'm only getting 6FPS more than 23.2grs and the SD sucks.
No swipes or ejector marks.
It can't be that narrow. If he has the blown primer brass, I'd be interested to see if there were any swipes on the case head too. I'm thinking there was just a loose pocket and it happened to let go.
Only because I am knee deep in a Capt n Coke and don't feel like rereading the whole thread - what brass are you using?
I am conditioned to read blown primer to see a big fat sooty hole where the primer used to be - did you blow a primer out of the case or did the primer leak?
It leaked.
I'm using LC14 1x fired cases.
I don't understand how just the primer can raise velocity by 70 FPS. These damm 41's are too hot. I would rather use FC but they are too soft.
Interesting - I use GI M1's in my long line loads, recently ran some tests between those primers and BR4's when verifying powder lots and checking primer lots. I found two lots of M41's produced velocity averages of 2741, 2753 2758 & 2760 (10 shot groups). The first two were from the same lot (12fps delta) and the second two were from the same lot (2fps delta). SD ran 8.42, 12.01 for the first two strings with the same lot of M41's. The second lot produced SD's of 11.31 & 11.35. In contrast, the BR4 10 shot averages of 2738 and 2739 with SD's of 10.6 & 16.06.
Mashed altogether - the BR4s were slower 8 - 20 fps vs the M41's and SD's ran for all intents and purposes, basically the same.
Seeing a 70 fps difference is really interesting. I have never seen a primer push velocity up that amount. Do you have a different lot of M41's to test against?
I do. The instant lot is several years old. I bought a case of new 41's to stock up. I guess I could pop it open.
Opsoff1:
Was that with Varget? Or 8208? Cuz with Varget the difference in velocity is closer to what you saw.
Secondly, on an AR, have you shot for groups with the magnetospeed on the barrel vs off and what did you see?
Only because I am knee deep in a Capt n Coke and don't feel like rereading the whole thread - what brass are you using?
I am conditioned to read blown primer to see a big fat sooty hole where the primer used to be - did you blow a primer out of the case or did the primer leak?
Our blown primers would leave a mild sooty case head with a moderate swipe. This was using mixed LC brass.
I loaded some 1x 92.5gr LC14 cases with 23.2grs of 8208 with 7.5's, BR-4's, 400's, and 205M's using the 77gr CC 2.250" OAL.
What's weird is the 23.2gr charge shoots similar groups with both the 41 and 7.5 primer but at wildly different velocities. I have a feeling this test will show that the above standard primers are pretty similar and will give me 2575 FPS, and that the 41's are inappropriate for this powder.
Is 8208 single or double base?
Opsoff1:
Was that with Varget? Or 8208? Cuz with Varget the difference in velocity is closer to what you saw.
Secondly, on an AR, have you shot for groups with the magnetospeed on the barrel vs off and what did you see?
I use Rel 15 and have for years. This was all with 80gr SMK's .010 off the lands. Load will hold MOA elevation at 600 with irons. I use stand mounted chronographs for all testing - nothing touches the bbl. Barrels can be highly sensitive to any interference - so I want zero variables - I shoot for score and need the guns to shoot MOA or better across the course - but MOA is absolute maximum always looking for smaller. I have plenty of loads that will shoot really small groups - but always with that odd flyer or two. In score shooting - that equates to a loss. I'd opt for a nice round MOA group that is consistent day in and day out vs a smaller one with flyers.
Our blown primers would leave a mild sooty case head with a moderate swipe. This was using mixed LC brass.
Over the years and with different bbls - we would occasionally get into a bad lot of Fed GM (69gr SMK) - we were using a lot one year at Perry that combined with tight bore Kriegers, high heat / humidity and a suspect load in the FGM - it was horrendous. 6 or 7 shots out of ten would be off call and the primers were down in the trigger group or up in the bbl extension. The primer pockets in that Fed brass were so big that a primer would literally fall out after a shot. Not cool - that lot was quickly purged from inventory / supply after the first day or two.
Over the years and with different bbls - we would occasionally get into a bad lot of Fed GM (69gr SMK) - we were using a lot one year at Perry that combined with tight bore Kriegers, high heat / humidity and a suspect load in the FGM - it was horrendous. 6 or 7 shots out of ten would be off call and the primers were down in the trigger group or up in the bbl extension. The primer pockets in that Fed brass were so big that a primer would literally fall out after a shot. Not cool - that lot was quickly purged from inventory / supply after the first day or two.
Over sized and creating pressure spikes huh?
Over sized and creating pressure spikes huh?
Crappy soft Federal brass. How that stuff shot as well as it did is a mystery - ES and SD were usually awful - but damn - it would shoot sub moa all day long.
I NEVER reload it - goes in the big bucket and gets recycled to a brass vendor. The only time I'd even consider reloading it is using new FGM brass that was factory primed in a bolt gun - I can work up my own loads and get to a happy place on my own.
I'm thinking that too. It wasn't a dramatic leak, just a slight one but enough to make me stop using them. I'm only getting 6FPS more than 23.2grs and the SD sucks.
No swipes or ejector marks.
Did the primer leak from the side or was it in the center?
From the side.
But I think the problem has resolved itself. I took the magnetospeed off, shot some ammo and you were right, the chrony was screwing with accuracy. It shot half inch or better with 23.6 and 23.8grs of 8208 under the 77 using 7.5 primers. This load has very low SD on the upper end of the range and does 2650 FPS. No pressure signs. The primers are round and the caseheads look normal with no ejector marks or swipes.
I think the failure to lock on the last shot was due to the wazoo recoil canceling tungsten counterweight buffer I'm using. I bought some 77gr FGMM and it also failed to lock and shot 1.5" groups.
From the side.
But I think the problem has resolved itself. I took the magnetospeed off, shot some ammo and you were right, the chrony was screwing with accuracy. It shot half inch or better with 23.6 and 23.8grs of 8208 under the 77 using 7.5 primers. This load has very low SD on the upper end of the range and does 2650 FPS. No pressure signs. The primers are round and the caseheads look normal with no ejector marks or swipes.
2650 from a 16" barrel is booking it for 77gr!
But I think the problem has resolved itself. I took the magnetospeed off, shot some ammo and you were right, the chrony was screwing with accuracy. It shot half inch or better with 23.6 and 23.8grs of 8208 under the 77 using 7.5 primers. This load has very low SD on the upper end of the range and does 2650 FPS. No pressure signs. The primers are round and the caseheads look normal with no ejector marks or swipes.
We were at 23.8 for a while too. But XBR, according to some of the guys on accurate shooter, has a way of turning on you quick... without warning.
This happened to me. I suspect it was a powder lot change, but never definitively concluded that. Anyway... I started getting like 5% blown primers...
I took some of the ammo down thinking I'd brain farted and was a full grain over, but no such thing. The charge scaled correctly.
I'm just saying that if you can get away with at least a few tenths under without giving up anything accuracy wise... do it.
2650 from a 16" barrel is booking it for 77gr!
Brass won't last long with that kind of load.... Maybe two loadings or so.
We were at 23.8 for a while too. But XBR, according to some of the guys on accurate shooter, has a way of turning on you quick... without warning.
This happened to me. I suspect it was a powder lot change, but never definitively concluded that. Anyway... I started getting like 5% blown primers...
I took some of the ammo down thinking I'd brain farted and was a full grain over, but no such thing. The charge scaled correctly.
I'm just saying that if you can get away with at least a few tenths under without giving up anything accuracy wise... do it.
Was that with 1x fired brass?
The brass I used for this test is 92.5+\-.1gr LC all trimmed to the same length. It holds 31.5grs of water when fired from my chamber. When I adjusted QL it figured about 58,000 PSI.
If using run of the mill LC which weighs anywhere from 91-94grs, pressure could go past 60K especially because powder lots vary.
I'll test this load for brass durability. I'll reload only those cases and see how the primer pockets hold up.
As Mark has basically said - speed isn't the end all. I'd rather have accurate and slower than fast and loose - not to mention living on the hairy edge of a pressure problem.
Re: the Magnetospeed - it 's a novel concept but it really has application for field testing velocity so correct drop charts / come-ups can be utilized. I saw prototypes down at Bragg before they brought them to the commercial market and the whole point was a way for snipers to verify velocity in the field for different lots of ammo or changing atmospheric conditions. It isn't a device that you should use to accuracy tune a load while attached to a bbl - on anything.
Barrel harmonics are a very strange issue and it is almost voodoo - I've seen sniper rifles that had barrels wrapped in burlap that still shot MOA. Other bbls - stunning how sensitive they are to external influnences.
There is a well cited passage by either COL Townsend Whelen or LTC William Brophy (can't remeber which) that showed the benefit of free floated bbls as well as what can influence them. An Army team shooter, in the prone position fired tests at 600 yards with a NM M1. The first string was centered up and in the 5/V ring. The second string was fired the same way except that an assistant, holding a pencil by the lead tip, and using only the weight of the pencil, had the eraser end rest on the bbl near the muzzle - that string had shots scattered all over the target.
I've seen it with bolt guns, gas guns and everything inbetween. I shot a NM M14 that had the flash suppresor crack and went from shooting 10's & X's to not even being on paper.
Don't ever discount the potential major / negative effects of attaching something on a bbl.
I always use A1 flash suppressors when building match uppers as I can play / tune with peel washers to turn the flash hider in or out - basically lengthening or shortening the bbl. This allows me to "tune" the barrel for accuracy. The A1 allows me to turn it to any position without the indexing problems of the solid bottomed A2's.
Was that with 1x fired brass?
The brass I used for this test is 92.5+\-.1gr LC all trimmed to the same length. It holds 31.5grs of water when fired from my chamber. When I adjusted QL it figured about 58,000 PSI.
If using run of the mill LC which weighs anywhere from 91-94grs, pressure could go past 60K especially because powder lots vary.
I'll test this load for brass durability. I'll reload only those cases and see how the primer pockets hold up.
So - basically no matter how you slice it - you are exceeding SAAMI specs for both 556 & 223. (55,000psi) Dangerous ground to be treading on.
My advice is to heed Marks insight, and back it down - retesting, you should find another accuracy node with less powder and correspondingly lower chamber pressures.
Yeah... our brass is mixed. So there could have been any number of firings on the brass. I've not found that sorting off brass and tracking to be worth the ass ache. I mean... no matter what I've tried other than shooting alone, I always end up with everything mixed up.
That said, I'm pretty strict on primer pocket tightness. I'll cull brass in a minute when the primer seats too easily. A 5% blown primer rate on my hand primed brass isn't a loose pocket issue... it's a pressure issue.
I'm thinking of trying Hornady 75's next. Do you have any experience with them and 8208? Would the sweet spot likely come in at a lower charge weight?
So - basically no matter how you slice it - you are exceeding SAAMI specs for both 556 & 223. (55,000psi) Dangerous ground to be treading on.
My advice is to heed Marks insight, and back it down - retesting, you should find another accuracy node with less powder and correspondingly lower chamber pressures.
I agree with you. I'd rather be closer to 50K, but needed to see if I had a mechanical issue. Now that I know I don't, I can pursue milder loads.
I'm thinking of trying Hornady 75's next. Do you have any experience with them and 8208? Would the sweet spot likely come in at a lower charge weight?
I slung a hundred of them I think. The Hornady 75s just can't compare with the 77 SMKs and Nosler CCs. I'm sure people get them to shoot great, but I've never had them do anything thrilling.
In any case, I ran them just like the 77 gr load. Same with the PRVI 75s.
I slung a hundred of them I think. The Hornady 75s just can't compare with the 77 SMKs and Nosler CCs. I'm sure people get them to shoot great, but I've never had them do anything thrilling.
In any case, I ran them just like the 77 gr load. Same with the PRVI 75s.
Same here, but I have observed very good performance out of the Hornady's with a 1:9 twist BBL. If I recall, the bearing surface on the 75 was significantly shorter than the SMKs and others in the 75g-77gr category. Don't have any around to measure. Can anyone confirm?
Anybody try 8208 with Nosler 64 BSB?
Same here, but I have observed very good performance out of the Hornady's with a 1:9 twist BBL. If I recall, the bearing surface on the 75 was significantly shorter than the SMKs and others in the 75g-77gr category. Don't have any around to measure. Can anyone confirm?
I don't have any handy. Shot them all up. I wouldn't mind owning a bunch of those bullets for blasting. But the 77s are just much more accurate.
Same here, but I have observed very good performance out of the Hornady's with a 1:9 twist BBL. If I recall, the bearing surface on the 75 was significantly shorter than the SMKs and others in the 75g-77gr category. Don't have any around to measure. Can anyone confirm?
Took some measurements on bearing surfaces - this is not definitive, but represents the differences among some of the various bullets out there.
73gr Berger Match Target Boat Tail: .395"
77gr Sierra Match King w/ canelure: .305"
75gr Hornady HPBT Match: .273"
75gr Hornady A-Max: .240"
80gr Sierra Sierra Match King: .255"
I'll measure some 69gr SMK's later.
Update:
Primer pockets with the 77gr/23.8gr 8208 load are holding up. They have loosened up a little from their tight 1x state, but now after 5 firings they are still serviceable.
I noticed that my LC cases stopped growing after 3x. Up to 3x they were growing .005" per firing and now only .001" or so.
77SMK is more consistent in my rifle than Nosler.
I found a 77SMK that was 1.010" long. The rest were .975". I loaded the long one to 2.285" and the short ones to 2.250" and fired a group. The long one printed .75" up and away from the rest which fell into a nice half-inch group. The long one weighed 77grs, btw.
I should receive my Hornady 75's today. Can't wait to try them.
Oh, I forgot. I got some Tulammo 556M primers. They average 20 FPS less than 7.5's.
You might try dropping that load down a touch. I'm dropping 23.4-23.5gr on top of CCI 450's and am getting incredible groups with 77gr SMK's from 2 different rifles. Dropping the powder charge will help your primer pockets last longer as well.
According to my research, CCI 450 is the same strength as the 41. I worked up a load using 41's and 8208 and it blew a primer with 23.4grs. 41's generate 70 FPS more than 7.5's with the same charge. Based on velocity, and my QL, I'd say 23.8 with 7.5's makes the same pressure as 23.2 with 41's.
Oh, I forgot. I got some Tulammo 556M primers. They average 20 FPS less than 7.5's.
Did they shoot better? 8208 is a fast enough powder that the mellow Russian primer should really make it sing. (It has in my experience)
According to my research, CCI 450 is the same strength as the 41. I worked up a load using 41's and 8208 and it blew a primer with 23.4grs. 41's generate 70 FPS more than 7.5's with the same charge. Based on velocity, and my QL, I'd say 23.8 with 7.5's makes the same pressure as 23.2 with 41's.
They are supposed to be the same compound, but I've found 450's to be much more consistent than the 41's.
FWIW, higher velocity is not always indicative of higher pressure. And a hotter primer does not always equal more velocity. There are many more factors at play here.
I might load some up to your specs and do some velocity testing if I get the chance. Something always pops up when I plan on heading to country to shoot, so it wouldn't surprise me if something came up and I don't make it out there.
Edit: scratch that, it's dove season. If I'm headed to the country, I'll be hunting.
The biggest improvement I had when reloading for my Noveske was to stop full length sizing, and just move to shoulder bumping. I suspect the body of the chamber is a bit on the big side to aid in extraction. My theory is that if you're mashing down every case to the small side of things it never really expands and seals as good as it should. After I started bumping, my cases were coming out of the rifle a lot more clean than they were previously; less soot on the ejected cases.
Did they shoot better? 8208 is a fast enough powder that the mellow Russian primer should really make it sing. (It has in my experience)
I didn't do a full work up. I just loaded them with 23.2grs to compare velocity.
Another update:
Ran out of 77SMK, but found some with cannelure at a local store. Tried 23.8 of 8208 and 7.5's crimped and uncrimped. Shot .75" either way, although crimping shifted the POI to the left a little.
Then I shot 23.8, 23.6, and 23.4grs with the 556M's. 23.8 shot 1", 23.6 shot .75", and 23.4 shot .3" with a last shot flier opening it to .5". I knew I was going to mess up that group. I'm not worthy.
23.4 is it. The primers look nice and round. The load is and feels mild.
I was going to work up a load with Hornady 75's but some sumbich stole them out of my mail box. I hope he od's on his dope.
That's good. 23.4 should put you at load with a little buffer for safe pressure levels. I think I get improved results with crimping because I have mixed brass with various numbers of firings. So the crimp somewhat equalized the neck tensions.
23.4-23.5 XBR is what I use with 77gr SMK/Nosler CC's. Consistently .5moa.
I haven't tried the crimp vs no crimp. I was just thinking about wanting to test that out today actually.
I haven't tried the crimp vs no crimp. I was just thinking about wanting to test that out today actually.
That may be unique to my process...
I noticed the cannelured bullets are easier to seat as there is 30% less neck to grab on to the bullet.
I think it's a wash in terms of bullet setback: On one hand, a cannelured bullet has a shoulder for the case mouth to butt up against. On the other hand, there's less bullet surface for the neck to grab.
What do you use with 69's?
What do you use with 69's?
I haven't played around with the 69gr SMK's much, but H322 has proven to be a good choice so far.
H322 works like a champ with 69 grains too. That's the first load we worked up with H322. I was content to shoot those for the rest of my life, but Pappabear pushed us into the 77s... which shoot even better.
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