Definition of a "built" gun?

[DevilDog]

Many course reviews/write-ups I have seen when it comes to taking a rifle/carbine course is the recommendation to not bring a "built" (or frankengun) to a course because they almost always go belly up during the course.

So what is a "built" gun? Obviously an xyz barrel on a efg upper with a mln bolt in a opr carrier on a efg lower with a stu trigger group put together as the student's first attempt at building an AR is a "built" gun.

But would for those of you who have seen "built" guns go belly up in a classes, does this include mis-matched reputable uppers and lowers on the same gun?

Do "built" guns typically consist of non-factory barrels/uppers/bolt carrier groups?

Does any lower with an aftermarket trigger qualify as a "built" gun.

Do rifles built by well-known/reputable shops vs. a student's favorite local smith fail at a similiar rate?

Again, I am using "built" as the description of a gun that falls into the group where 90%+ of them fail during a course (which is why I put this thread here, hopefully the right place).

I am asking as I have my first rifle course coming up, and my primary/best carbine is a LMT upper (LMT bolt carrier group/w enhanced bolt) with a 1992-ish Colt Match HBAR lower with an aftermarket trigger. The upper has 1k+ rounds through it and the trigger group has got 1.5k+ rounds on it so far. Would you define this rifle as a "built" gun and predict that it will fail in the course?

[Patrick Aherne]

I don't consider your complete LMT upper on a Colt lower a Frankengun. Also, the fact that you have over 1k rounds through the weapon bodes well for it working reliably.

I think we all know a Frankengun when we see it. i.e., the no name barrell, that a "buddy's friend who used to build them for xxx" put on a no-name upper, and then it has a super-cool recoil buffer + plus, check out this nifty TDI stuff on it!

My primary personal rifle is, gasp, an Olympic Arms that was the only AR-pattern rifle I could buy prior to the last CA AWB. The only parts that remain on the rifle that are original are the lower, FCG, bolt and carrier. LMT and Vltor have replaced the crap originals. The other part to the equation is that I've been to an AR-15 armorer school, and have all the proper tools, vice blocks, torque wrenches and punches to do this sort of work. Don't believe an online tutorial will make you an instant expert.

[mark5pt56]

I can say this from my experience. I have used two "built" guns and they run 100%.
The first was(sold it/wanted a "no ban" and miss it)a 14.5 Bushy with a AK brake. The bolt/carrier was a DPMS that I put together-staked the key with a center punch. The lower was a stripped Bushy with a DPMS LPK from Brownells. The stock was off my preban Eagle, I put it in the middle position and epoxied/blind pinned in place(during ban)

With no truth stretching, I had between 15-20k through it without a single malfunction. I would say I shot upwards of 1k at any one time w/o cleaning. One day, it saw at least 10 mags back to back(curious shooters liking the brake).

The second still has the same lower set up, pins drilled out and epoxy loosened with a hammer. I found a used Colt M4 upper in a local shop(unk number of rounds fired) Put a Phanthom on it, pinned/welded) a new Bushy bolt group, cut a carry handle with a hack saw. It has at least 5k of my own through it and no malfunctions. Last week one gas ring broke-it still worked, I saw that when cleaning it.


My thoughts are if it's together right and lubed properly, it should run like a champ.

Mark

[Yojimbo]

I think if you know what you are doing and select quality parts, put your AR together the right way and test it prior to the class you should be good to go.

The big problem is that a lot of inexperienced people buy cheap, bottom feeder parts and then imporperly put it together. Not mention that these same folks also don't put at least a couple thousand rounds through their gun to ensure it's working properly before attending a class and wasting everyone elses time...:(

The idea is to not be in the second group. If you're still new to AR's get a factory built gun and thoroughly test it before using it for serious purposes.

[DevilDog]

Thanks for the replies guys.

You've all somewhat addressed the question I am trying to answer. I know that a grey statistic like "almost all the guns that went belly up in the class were built guns" doesn't give any clue to how many built guns did not go belly up.

This of course leads to why did some go bad and not others.

I have to wonder would it be more accurate to state that "most of the guns that went belly up had not been really broken in", regardless of what/who/how the gun was assembled?

[mark5pt56]

Even the new guns won't work if not maintained.

I've never had an issue with a new gun either. Clean it and lube it, I usually put more lube on a new one and they work from the get go. After the initial sight in, make sure you test the mags, get the gun hot as well.

Normally guns that go down aren't lubed, the shooter said it is and you can't see a drop or even the slightest sheen of oil.

Although all areas are important, keep the bolt cleaned/lubed and the chamber and chances are-it'll keep going.

Not that I agree with his methods, a buddy has a few class III's(AR's HK's AK's) he's a lazy cleaner-the extreme, he doesn't. He'll show up with them, caked, dried up gunk everywhere and take a bottle of clp and dump it all over the bolt and hit the switch-non stop burp action.



All I can say is maybe these "built guns" where made from parts from Billie Bob's table and someone telling the shooter to not use oil because it will attract dirt and make cleaning harder.