View Full Version : Stop Glocking the Trigger (Michael Brown/Ferguson Related)
28020
This is a technical discussion of the autopsy. All but one round landed on the left side of the target which speaks volumes about the user-equipment interface and training. None of the upper extremity wounds were fight stoppers. The wound to the right chest and zone 1 of the neck are potential life threatening but not immediately incapacitating. The round to the top of the head might have been fatal or a graze depending on the trajectory. My suspicion is that the eye wound ended the fight.
28020
This is a technical discussion of the autopsy. All but one round landed on the left side of the target which speaks volumes about the user-equipment interface and training. None of the upper extremity wounds were fight stoppers. The wound to the chest is potential life threatening but not immediately incapacitating. The round to the top of the head might have been fatal or a graze depending on the trajectory. My suspicion is that the eye wound ended the fight.
If it was a given that the suspect was squared up to the shooter, I would agree. However, I haven't seen a diagram of how the shooting played out. The suspect's right side may have been all that was available to the shooter. There are other factors which may have contributed to the shot placement.
The local newspaper quoted Dr. Michael Baden as saying that "one of the bullets entered the top" of the "skull, suggesting that his head was bent forward when he suffered a fatal injury." Dr. Baden was quoted as saying "all of the bullets were fired into his front." Dr. Baden was also quoted as saying "the last two shots in the head would have stopped him in his tracks and likely were the last fired."
Would the location of the shots indicate the shooter was right handed or left handed?
There's a difference in being "fired into his front", and fired "from directly in front of him". If the suspect is slightly bladed to the shooter, and has a hand or arm in front of him, then the rounds will still go into him from the front, but at an angle. In addition, the arm that's in the way will take some rounds, which may pass through, and enter the chest, again, into his front". As noted in the diagram, that included exit and re-entry wounds.
The dynamics of these situations are such that I wouldn't explain a shot pattern as always a shooter-trigger-gun issue right away.
SpeedRacer
08-18-14, 10:18
Based on witness accounts and the post-shooting footage, the suspect was out in the open, charging straight at the officer. Shots were fired from about 35' away from what I've seen/read. All things considered, I'd say it's hard to make any judgement/criticism on the officer's abilities.
I'm a card carrying "Glocking the Trigger" member.
On my FNX 45 I pull everything right. I can dry fire that sucker till the cows come home and watch that front sight jump a tiny bit right EVERY time.
I would like to see the report to determine whether there was gun shot residue on the body or the clothing. The patterns and size of the area where gun shot residue is located would also be good information to review. Patterns and size of areas with tattooing would be even better information to have if it is available. That would give us a better idea on probable distance from the shooter when the shots were fired.
montanadave
08-18-14, 10:39
I would like to see the report to determine whether there was gun shot residue on the body or the clothing. The patterns and size of the area where gun shot residue is located would also be good information to review. Patterns and size of areas with tattooing would be even better information to have if it is available. That would give us a better idea on probable distance from the shooter when the shots were fired.
I suggest you tune in to Al Sharpton's show on MSNBC. From the blurb I just caught on the tube, the good reverend has conducted his own forensic analysis of the autopsy findings and has ALL your answers. :sarcastic:
I had to change the channel after he said he was extremely troubled by the fact that there was more than one shot fired.
The wounds to the jaw, neck and chest were re entry wounds from the shot that entered just above the right eyebrow. The round came in above the right eyebrow, exited the jaw and re entered in the chest. Bodner stated that the fight stopper was the top of the head.
I may get ripped here and I am only speculating but this seems consistent with Brown bladed and leaning into the patrol car and the officer getting punched. The officer accesses his weapon and fires quickly. As the officer is firing, the subject is falling and the pistol is recoiling. The last two shots are the eyebrow and the top of the head.
We don't know how many rounds the officer fired, we only know how many hit. I am guessing this shooting took from first to last shot about 1.5 seconds.
montanadave
08-18-14, 10:50
So there are A LOT of questions unanswered but I thought the initial reports stated Michael Brown and the officer struggled over the officer's weapon while the officer was still in his car and the first shot was fired from within the car. I have seen no information as to whether this shot hit Brown, struck the car, or what. Then, apparently, Brown and his friend attempted to flee the scene, the officer exited his car, and whatever happened after that is in dispute. Am I tracking the information released so far or did I get it wrong?
The autopsy report does seem to contradict the statement made by Brown's friend to the press about Brown being shot in the back.
There is a video from one of Brown's neighbors that records about 10 minutes of the crime scene. It appeared Brown was facing down. The physical evidence from the autopsy and the crime scene video contradicts the principal witness statement.
Distance when the shots were fired and the angle of the arm wounds will give us a better indication of trigger manipulation.
Voodoo_Man
08-18-14, 10:56
The wounds to the jaw, neck and chest were re entry wounds from the shot that entered just above the right eyebrow. The round came in above the right eyebrow, exited the jaw and re entered in the chest. Bodner stated that the fight stopper was the top of the head.
I may get ripped here and I am only speculating but this seems consistent with Brown bladed and leaning into the patrol car and the officer getting punched. The officer accesses his weapon and fires quickly. As the officer is firing, the subject is falling and the pistol is recoiling. The last two shots are the eyebrow and the top of the head.
We don't know how many rounds the officer fired, we only know how many hit. I am guessing this shooting took from first to last shot about 1.5 seconds.
Seems logical.
I want to hear the officers side of the interaction. If it matches ballistics and physical evidence, then good shoot.
Opening this one back up. Please keep this thread about the technical aspects of the shoot, terminal ballistics, etc.
If it devolves into the same issues that closed the other thread, it will be closed. Thanks.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-14, 22:57
I think the analysis of powder on the clothes will help to determine if the arm shots were from the near contact shots in the police car (SUV?).
Saw an eyewitness report from to AA women and their lawyer on CNN. They said that he was shot at as he ran away. Either those were all misses or they were lying.
Why is it taking so long to get the cops story out? Aren't we like a week into this now and still no official report? Leads to all us speculating.
Mauser KAR98K
08-18-14, 23:32
Looking at the diagram and thinking it as a static shoot (both parties standing facing each other) it seems the officer was snatching his trigger, indicating a moment if panic to make the victim stop. Differently not an execution.
Has anyone located more details about the autopsy? I would like to know if there was any tattooing or stippling around the gun shot wounds on Michael Brown's arm and head.
MorphCross
08-18-14, 23:46
Has anyone located more details about the autopsy? I would like to know if there was any tattooing or stippling on Michael Brown's arm or head around the gunshot wounds.
Umm, wasn't Brown wearing a hat and T-shirt? The information that has come out came from the families hired Coroner, unless i'm very much mistaken that coroner is trying to get access to the clothing and such to offer a more thorough report.
No residue on the body and Bodner and his assistant stated that they will need the clothing to make a more accurate finding.
Remember, there was no residue on Trayvon Martin either and a lot on his clothing.
Since we are all speculating. When I first saw that diagram on the news last night, my first thoughts were that those would be wounds I would expect from a right handed perp reaching into a vehicle getting shot by a seated right handed person in the driver's seat.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-14, 23:50
Has anyone located more details about the autopsy? I would like to know if there was any tattooing or stippling around the gun shot wounds on Michael Brown's arm and head.
IIRC, the families 'HBO Guy' autopsy said there was no sign of contact to the gun shots, though he said that he didn't have access to the clothes, which may have residue. Looking at the strong arm robbery stills, he had on a short sleeve shirt, so if the arm wounds were from the struggle in the car, would there be powder residue on the body? Would it have been removed in the previous autopsies for some reason? So many people have been inside him this week, he'll have to change his last name to "Kardashian".
Umm, wasn't Brown wearing a hat and T-shirt? The information that has come out came from the families hired Coroner, unless i'm very much mistaken that coroner is trying to get access to the clothing and such to offer a more thorough report.
The video footage from the convenience store indicates he was wearing a short sleeve t-shirt.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-18-14, 23:56
Since we are all speculating. When I first saw that diagram on the news last night, my first thoughts were that those would be wounds I would expect from a right handed perp reaching into a vehicle getting shot by a seated right handed person in the driver's seat.
Wouldn't you expect the assailant to use his left hand to reach in? Just seems easier to reach across the officer to grab for the gun that way. Although if the Brown were punching the cop and just continued thru, that would probably be a right hand.
The two young women on CNN said the cop was reaching out and grabbing Brown by the throat. How tall is an SUV to get a seated figure to choke a 6'4 man?
From the video and stills of the shooting scene, can anyone comment if the shooting would be caught on the dash board cam? Was it probably not running if the lights weren't on?
MorphCross
08-19-14, 00:00
From the video and stills of the shooting scene, can anyone comment if the shooting would be caught on the dash board cam? Was it probably not running if the lights weren't on?
A point that has been brought up numerous times before, Ferguson PD had the cameras, they had not been installed in those SUVs yet.
Wouldn't you expect the assailant to use his left hand to reach in? Just seems easier to reach across the officer to grab for the gun that way. Although if the Brown were punching the cop and just continued thru, that would probably be a right hand.
The two young women on CNN said the cop was reaching out and grabbing Brown by the throat. How tall is an SUV to get a seated figure to choke a 6'4 man?
From the video and stills of the shooting scene, can anyone comment if the shooting would be caught on the dash board cam? Was it probably not running if the lights weren't on?
No clue. As to a dash cam, it probably wouldn't have caught any action at the driver's door.
Averageman
08-19-14, 06:58
Just an observation and a question or two.
Did this young man ever play football as a defensive lineman?
Think about how that would play out from the perspective of a Cop or a Quarterback.
He is running at you square hes tucked and comming through the line head down full speed, he isn't Bruce Lee, but he is fighting with what he knows works for him.
He simply shot the target that became available from the stance and movement of the target toward him.
Here is something I saw and heard from an official representative. Did not see it mentioned yet.
At least one of the wounds on the arm ---- could have entered ----- from the arms being raised in a surrender position. He then raised his arms... in a manner similar to what we all do in shooting drills, comps, .... NOT... like what you see the people on TV doing but rather a lower surrender positioning of the arms ex. fingertips just above head or at face level. He then touched his arm which wold be the part that rubs your side. That sort of inside part of your arm.
He said the shot could have entered from that angle and the bullet pass through to those upper areas.
Also the coroner stated the top of head wound was the killer that the others would not have necessarily been fatal however the one in top of head ( as though the head bent forward as in falling or charging ) and directly to brain was absolutely a fatal shot.
They recovered 3 bullets from the body.
The bladed stance would be consistent with one turning back to the officer but that arm shot that could have gone in from raised or lowered arms probably suggests he was at the least... in the process of turning of turning and raising arms at same time.
IOW, imagine I am running from you.... You yell freeze... I turn and as doing so I raise my arms.. As my body and arm turn and raise it would allow for the shot to enter as that official noted but that would suggest you hardly gave me a chance to actually turn around and surrender..................... unless of course you thought you saw a gun also as I turned....... but it turned out to be a box of cigars after the fact. I haven't heard any reports that suggest the officer thought he saw gun though. This shooting while turning would also support the "shot in the back" reports because from certain angles it would appear nearly that and then easily exaggerated.
Just an observation and a question or two.
Did this young man ever play football as a defensive lineman?
Think about how that would play out from the perspective of a Cop or a Quarterback.
He is running at you square hes tucked and comming through the line head down full speed, he isn't Bruce Lee, but he is fighting with what he knows works for him.
He simply shot the target that became available from the stance and movement of the target toward him.
That is in fact what the girl said on the call in audio. That Brown leaned over and charged finally dropping only a couple feet from officer. I don't know how far gun shot residue travels but if it was that close you would think it would be in his hair or hat. I don't know when they say no GSR do they mean only his body or his body and clothes?
montanadave
08-19-14, 08:03
We need to see the incident report filed by Officer Wilson. And I still want to know if there was a shot fired while Officer Wilson was still in his vehicle while he and Brown allegedly struggled for his firearm.
If you believe the friend that called in his version, then yes, a shot was fired. Unless that call was a hoax, then certainly you can't hide that one. There's going to evidence in the car.
in reference to the report....
After airing the audio, Don Lemon cautioned viewers that, as with any witness account, this is unproven and simply just another side of the story. However, he noted, CNN confirmed that Josie’s account of the story matches what the network’s sources say police have told investigators.
So now they need to release the officer reports and drug tests as well as drug tests on Brown. ... and just to clarify... I'm not suggesting the officer was impaired... in fact I don't think he would have shot such a straight vertical line if he were but certainly he must submit to a drug test to assure he too was not impaired in that regard and that he could reasonably discern that Brown indeed was. I'm not trying to expand the thread... this is directly related to the gun shot pattern and accounting as to how they came to be.
28020
This is a technical discussion of the autopsy. All but one round landed on the left side of the target which speaks volumes about the user-equipment interface and training. None of the upper extremity wounds were fight stoppers. The wound to the right chest and zone 1 of the neck are potential life threatening but not immediately incapacitating. The round to the top of the head might have been fatal or a graze depending on the trajectory. My suspicion is that the eye wound ended the fight.
Without knowing the position of the "attacker," it is hard to say for sure, but knowing that most people will do ALL THEY CAN to be square to a target, I will make the assumption that the Police Officer was right handed and as with MOST right handed shooters (firing their Glock rapidly), the trigger is PUSHED to the left as it was pulled to the rear.
So par for the course from experience teaching "new" or inexperienced shooters how to run a Glock.
C4
I don't think we can draw any conclusions about how the trigger was manipulated until it is known
1) how close the officer was to the suspect.
2) what angle the suspect was standing to the officer.
3) which hand the officer used when firing.
Without further details, we still don't know which hand the officer used to fire his service pistol. If his strong hand was injured while struggling with the suspect over the weapon, he may have fired with his support hand.
Like montanadave stated, we need to review the officer's statement.
Agree, it looks center mass to begin and rises dead center for head kill. It's practically a straight line. Either that or he did some super fast learning between shot one and shot six which was basically an X hit. Even the "Josie" account states he intended to shoot the head prior to doing so. How the hell do you learn to work a trigger that fast under that pressure? I expect that guy is pretty damn good shot.
Are we sure he used a Glock... I can't find a good picture of the Blue Uniform but the one I do see the grip looks round like a M&P.. not his personally, just another officer. but I honestly can't tell. ... found another.. it does look like Glock.
I keep hearing about 6 shots being fired, or more specifically 6 wounds. However, someone mentioned 3 bullets being found in Brown, and I didn't see any exit wounds from the backside on the coroner's drawing. So it would *appear* to me from the information available that at least 3 of those 6 wounds were re-entry wounds as someone else alluded to earlier. This would be indicative of a target leaning forward as in charging/attacking. The angles of those gunshot wounds is critical to the final determination of what happened forensically.
montanadave
08-19-14, 09:20
While I can understand the need to proceed methodically with an investigation to ensure accuracy, in cases receiving this much coverage the lack of actual information creates a void which is quickly filled by all the competing narratives offered by those who have an agenda of their own. And the media, hungry for talking heads to fill a TV screen, are only to happy to give every Tom, Dick, and Harry a bully pulpit.
So when, inevitably, the facts of the case do emerge, all those who find their preconceived narrative disproved are going to cry "coverup!" or "railroaded!", depending upon which way the facts take the case.
I keep hearing about 6 shots being fired, or more specifically 6 wounds.
I believe the doctor stated 6 individual unique entry wounds... with more re-entry points. Never have heard how many shots were fired, although the witness said he fired shots that "obviously missed" how true that is I have no idea.
Voodoo_Man
08-19-14, 09:43
Not only are the witnesses professionals in the LE field, they can also see bullets in flight that obviously missed.
Wow, I guess I am way behind the curve.
Would be nice to get a teminal ballistics expert along with some actual gunshot wound folks to explain to john q public about how many rounds it can take to incapacitate a motivated aggressor. Maybe even a few videos that show suspects being shot multiple times and continueing to fight, often for quite a few minutes. Especially after the good reverend's comments about having more than a single shot fired.
Or is that too much to ask?
Do we know what rounds they issue in Ferguson PD?
Voodoo_Man
08-19-14, 10:01
Would be nice to get a teminal ballistics expert along with some actual gunshot wound folks to explain to john q public about how many rounds it can take to incapacitate a motivated aggressor. Maybe even a few videos that show suspects being shot multiple times and continueing to fight, often for quite a few minutes. Especially after the good reverend's comments about having more than a single shot fired.
Or is that too much to ask?
Do we know what rounds they issue in Ferguson PD?
Is it too much to ask for actual evidence to determine how and what happened before everyone makes assumptions?
Yes.
I thought the autopsy report is factual evidence. Are you expecting video of the event? I'm expecting to have to listen to various accounting of the events and opinions as to what happened.
I though the point of this thread was to review the evidence and form an opinion as to whether or not it indicates a mechanical issue known to impact many people firing Glock pistols. Do you expect we will have other evidence on that matter that is not personal accounting? Like someone has video that no one has been told about yet? That's going to go over real well at this point.
Is Glocking the trigger simply pushing left? Or is it most often left and down? I thought it was the latter.
so the accounts are he had his hands raised or he bum rushed him... either way, his arms would not be down by his side and the report also shows a good gash in his hand. So it seems to me his elevation was rather well defined under the circumstances and that there was no puling down left. Unless of course you believe he was simply standing there with his arms by his side.
If Glocking the trigger is simply pushing left, then I agree. It looks slightly left of center around about the right pectoral area as opposed to sternum.
Voodoo_Man
08-19-14, 10:57
I thought the autopsy report is factual evidence. Are you expecting video of the event? I'm expecting to have to listen to various accounting of the events and opinions as to what happened.
I though the point of this thread was to review the evidence and form an opinion as to whether or not it indicates a mechanical issue known to impact many people firing Glock pistols. Do you expect we will have other evidence on that matter that is not personal accounting? Like someone has video that no one has been told about yet? That's going to go over real well at this point.
Autopsy is factual evidence, sure, but we were released an extremely small piece of it and left guessing.
The entire bit needs to come out and the whole report needs to be poured over by homicide detectives and experts without bias. Then and only then will we get any factual information on this situation.
Is Glocking the trigger simply pushing left? Or is it most often left and down? I thought it was the latter.
so the accounts are he had his hands raised or he bum rushed him... either way, his arms would not be down by his side and the report also shows a good gash in his hand. So it seems to me his elevation was rather well defined under the circumstances and that there was no puling down left. Unless of course you believe he was simply standing there with his arms by his side.
If Glocking the trigger is simply pushing left, then I agree. It looks slightly left of center around about the right pectoral area as opposed to sternum.
Low and left of POA with a right-handed pistol shot is usually indicative of jerking the trigger while just left of POA is usually attributed to a weak grip with the support hand. Not familiar with the term the OP used about "Glocking the trigger".
I see, yes, well they have ordered three now so hopefully between all the people investigating they can deliver an opinion that is consistent, reasonable and definite in nature. I'm not certain we will get to see unbiased reports though. Certainly if the GJ calls for his trial, his defense will be biased towards him... or I hope so anyway. Would they release the reports at that point? Or do they have to keep it private for evidence so as not to influence a potential jury?
I was a bit surprised to hear that doctor say he couldn't tell what the trajectory of one arm wound was. I know it's not TV but the nature of that specific one I would have thought would have been more telling. Murphy's Law is always going to screw up the one piece that would really help clarify the situation.
Still, no matter what, I really don't think the autopsys are going to find that he was simply standing erect with his arms by his side like that picture. Surely he was in some sort of emotional posture be it surrender or crouched in aggression. I find it incredibly hard to believe that he simply stood there like a statue and the LEO shot him... that's just beyond reasonable belief. That's actually harder to believe than the people saying he shot him in the back running. He would have had to gone into off the chart self control mode and the LEO would have to gone into off the chart insane mode.. I just can't see that having happened.
So I'm sticking with my opinion that the LEO was in fact a reasonably good shot and did so well under pressure. .. and don't forget... according to this forum he was probably only able to shoot to 50% of his ability due to the stress. It looks like nice shooting to me that favors the left a bit.
In my unprofessional, uneducated, couch QB reasoning, I find the Glock........ not guilty!
I suspect/guess when it is all said and done, this shooting will play out pretty much like the Trayvon Martin shooting. If it does, it could get ugly across this country for awhile.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/
Accuracy was combat effective, as he ended the fight. And looks like he might have had a broken orbital bone to boot....
Is Glocking the trigger simply pushing left? Or is it most often left and down? I thought it was the latter.
so the accounts are he had his hands raised or he bum rushed him... either way, his arms would not be down by his side and the report also shows a good gash in his hand. So it seems to me his elevation was rather well defined under the circumstances and that there was no puling down left. Unless of course you believe he was simply standing there with his arms by his side.
If Glocking the trigger is simply pushing left, then I agree. It looks slightly left of center around about the right pectoral area as opposed to sternum.
Usually not down (that is something else like unlocking your strong hand wrist). "Glocking" the trigger (as a right handed shooter) usually shows itself as level hit, just to the left (or high left if the Glock barrel to slide is loose fitting).
C4
lifebreath
08-19-14, 12:20
Low and left of POA with a right-handed pistol shot is usually indicative of jerking the trigger while just left of POA is usually attributed to a weak grip with the support hand. Not familiar with the term the OP used about "Glocking the trigger".
Weak left support hand with right-handed shooter and tension in the right hand causes the inside of the knuckle of the right hand thumb to contact the left rear tang of a glock and push the rear slightly to the right, causing the shots to go left of POA. This was my first thought When seeing the drawing. Brown charging the officer who is shooting under pressure with a very tight grip with the right hand on his Glock.
The shots seem to me to be consistent with Brown rushing Wilson (after having run away then doubling back), Wilson shooting left of POA, Brown falling forward and a final shot to the top of the skull as he is falling, which travels down and out the eye and re-enters at the collar bone. Final position is Brown face down, head towards vehicle.
IIRC, the families 'HBO Guy' autopsy said there was no sign of contact to the gun shots, though he said that he didn't have access to the clothes, which may have residue. Looking at the strong arm robbery stills, he had on a short sleeve shirt, so if the arm wounds were from the struggle in the car, would there be powder residue on the body? Would it have been removed in the previous autopsies for some reason? So many people have been inside him this week, he'll have to change his last name to "Kardashian".
Thanks Grant for explaining my tongue-and-cheek term "Glocking the Trigger." I do indeed mean shooting left which is an affliction that I still suffer from from time to time. It was me being a wise ass and probably not the best way to start a thread - my apologies to the mods.
A couple other points to note. The first autopsy typically reveals the most information if done properly. Dr. Boden's second autopsy was performed AFTER embalming and handling by the funeral home which can significantly degrade the quality of evidence. For example, gun shot residue can be removed from the head if there was extensive washing in preparation for interment. Also, Boden did not have access to the deceased clothing which might also contain residue. The original autopsy also includes plain film x-days that can help in determining the trajectory of retained projectiles.
Basically, we need to see the original full autopsy report to get the most insight into what happened.
Low and left of POA with a right-handed pistol shot is usually indicative of jerking the trigger while just left of POA is usually attributed to a weak grip with the support hand. Not familiar with the term the OP used about "Glocking the trigger".
I had not heard the term "Glocking the trigger" used either. I saw the same thing happen on the range when our people jerked the trigger or did not index their finger on the trigger properly when we carried Smith & Wesson pistols. I have also seen this happen with Rugers and Colts.
Until we have more solid information available, it's only speculation on what happened.
And looks like he might have had a broken orbital bone to boot....
Yes and that should put to rest further criticism of the officer's marksmanship skills.
Don't know how many of us would do as well as he did with a broken eye socket.
The officer had to be dealing with an unusual level of pain, probably poor or nonexistent vision in the punched eye which might have been his aiming eye (anyone know yet?), quite an adrenalin dump, etc.
And here we sit critiquing his aim and trigger technique.
Moose-Knuckle
08-19-14, 17:07
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/
Accuracy was combat effective, as he ended the fight. And looks like he might have had a broken orbital bone to boot....
Yeah I mean I'm sure everyone here who has already been punched about the face and head and then gives chase to said 300lb attacker only to have attacker turn and charge at them would be all in the X-ring. Never mind any trauma recieved from the blows to their head/face and the aderaline dump coursing through their veins.
Edit: I didn't see GunBugBits post until after I posted mine.
Yes and that should put to rest further criticism of the officer's marksmanship skills.
Don't know how many of us would do as well as he did with a broken eye socket.
The officer had to be dealing with an unusual level of pain, probably poor or nonexistent vision in the punched eye which might have been his aiming eye (anyone know yet?), quite an adrenalin dump, etc.
And here we sit critiquing his aim and trigger technique.
The officer won. That speaks volumes.
lifebreath
08-19-14, 17:53
I'm not sure that anybody was critiquing the officers shooting technique. My comments were directed specifically at trying to explain the pattern of shots to the torso and arms and why most of the shots were on the right side.
I honestly thought it was about an issue specific to Glocks... hell .. who knew...
Well if nothing else ... he's a hell of a lot better shot than the New York cops.
We may be assuming that the officer was using a two hand hold. He may have fired some rounds with one hand. Also, no doubt his training taught him how rapidly an opponent can close distances between an officer and himself. And as all of us here know, being big doesn't make a guy slow. Even a 300 pound non athletic fat slob will have legs strong enough to carry his weight.
Considering the politics involved with careers at stake all the way up to governor and considering federal pressure, and considering that these events are being played before the world on real time, I think that Officer Wilson will be sacrificed on an altar of bullshit. Think about jury pool demographics if tried. If not indicted locally, Officer Wilson may be tried on federal charges of civil right violation whether or not he should be.
Moose-Knuckle
08-20-14, 15:41
Considering the politics involved with careers at stake all the way up to governor and considering federal pressure, and considering that these events are being played before the world on real time, I think that Officer Wilson will be sacrificed on an altar of bullshit. Think about jury pool demographics if tried. If not indicted locally, Officer Wilson may be tried on federal charges of civil right violation whether or not he should be.
If this happens, I know a lot of LEOs that will be switching careers. Why put yourself out there for this type of shit, **** that noise. Let the cities burn . . .
Doc Safari
08-20-14, 16:43
I was a bit surprised to hear that doctor say he couldn't tell what the trajectory of one arm wound was. I know it's not TV but the nature of that specific one I would have thought would have been more telling. Murphy's Law is always going to screw up the one piece that would really help clarify the situation.
So, it is at least possible that after being hit in the arm by bullets, that Mr. Brown changed his mind and started to raise his arms to surrender. Since it's been established that the head wounds were the last ones fired, then potentially they were fired while Mr. Brown was in the act of surrender. (I'm not saying that does or doesn't still make it a "good" shoot, just that this is what may have happened).
So, given that the standard for conviction is a "reasonable doubt", then that questionable arm shot is absolutely critical. The officer's future hangs on whether all of the arm shots impacted parallel to the bone (indicating the arms were probably outstretched to attack), perpendicular to the bone (indicating the bullets impacted the arms as they were up in the air or at the perp's side), or a combination of the two.
If you were on the jury, and there was some doubt as to the trajectory of the bullet of one arm wound, you can believe both sides will focus on either emphasizing or de-emphasizing that wound as they make their case.
Since Mr. Brown was likely a moving target no matter where and how the bullets impacted, this may very well come down to a judgment call by the jury in the officer's trial (if there is one).
Given the volatility of the situation, I'd hate to be on that jury!
Just saw on Facebook that the guy that did the press conference about the families autopsy isn't even a doctor.
http://fox4kc.com/2014/08/19/shawn-parcells-credentials-role-in-michael-brown-autopsy-questioned-by-doctors/
MorphCross
08-20-14, 19:30
Just saw on Facebook that the guy that did the press conference about the families autopsy isn't even a doctor.
http://fox4kc.com/2014/08/19/shawn-parcells-credentials-role-in-michael-brown-autopsy-questioned-by-doctors/
He is not a ME, he is not licensed or trained in the practice. He comes closest to being a Morgue Technician. Someone who cleans up once the Coroner puts the body back in the fridge. An Opportunistic Media whore.
Unbelievable! That's the guy I saw... but only saw him for seconds when he made that arm comment. Absolutely unbelievable.
I wonder if Holder will issue the instructions to the jury as to which laws he wants enforced? If only he can work in Angela Corey as the foreman. So it's fair and professional.
This is all just speculation. Really, only the officer and the dead guy know what really happened. However, I hear a bus coming and the politics of the situation says that that cop goes under it. Good shoot or not, he's done!!
alienb1212
08-20-14, 20:03
Not reading the thread...but...seriously?
The guy got the shit kicked out of him. He managed to still neutralize the threat. I don't care if he licked the slide clean after and then tried to play a PGA tour with it.
All this monday-morning quarterbacking crap is a tad bit ridiculous in my opinion. A whole lot of opinions being presented by people that have never been in that kind of situation either...
Can we learn something? Maybe. The guy had some pretty significant head trauma and I'm shocked he was still walking, much less had the motor skills to operate his weapon..
Moose-Knuckle
08-20-14, 20:12
Not reading the thread...but...seriously?
The guy got the shit kicked out of him. He managed to still neutralize the threat. I don't care if he licked the slide clean after and then tried to play a PGA tour with it.
All this monday-morning quarterbacking crap is a tad bit ridiculous in my opinion. A whole lot of opinions being presented by people that have never been in that kind of situation either...
Can we learn something? Maybe. The guy had some pretty significant head trauma and I'm shocked he was still walking, much less had the motor skills to operate his weapon..
Several of us have made this exact point.
alienb1212
08-20-14, 20:17
Several of us have made this exact point.
Note the first line of my post =P
Not reading the thread...but...seriously?
The guy got the shit kicked out of him. He managed to still neutralize the threat. I don't care if he licked the slide clean after and then tried to play a PGA tour with it.
All this monday-morning quarterbacking crap is a tad bit ridiculous in my opinion. A whole lot of opinions being presented by people that have never been in that kind of situation either...
Can we learn something? Maybe. The guy had some pretty significant head trauma and I'm shocked he was still walking, much less had the motor skills to operate his weapon..
I see that the official story is going to be along the lines of the officer having been attacked, that he had been beaten severely. in the spirit of this threads attempts at explaining the preponderance of the officers shots hitting right due to whatever, I would also think that something else is emerging as curious, that being Officer Wilson's demeanor, and posture immediately following the shooting, he appears awfully calm in the sequences expressed in the images within this link, almost casual, and not in anyway demonstrating physical distress of any kind, nor does the officer that is standing next to him appear to be extending him any concern over any obvious injuries! Now I'm firmly in the camp of the cop, however the video contained within the link when opened up to fit my screen allows several brief opportunities to look at Wilson as he rather calmly paces the scene, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see absolutely no evidence of him having sustained any injuries at all, no blood on the uniform, no effort at holding or supporting an injured portion of his body, nothing at all!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2728166/Video-shows-cop-shot-Michael-Brown-pacing-lifeless-body-immediately-firing-six-shots-teen.html
I see that the official story is going to be along the lines of the officer having been attacked, that he had been beaten severely. in the spirit of this threads attempts at explaining the preponderance of the officers shots hitting right due to whatever, I would also think that something else is emerging as curious, that being Officer Wilson's demeanor, and posture immediately following the shooting, he appears awfully calm in the sequences expressed in the images within this link, almost casual, and not in anyway demonstrating physical distress of any kind, nor does the officer that is standing next to him appear to be extending him any concern over any obvious injuries! Now I'm firmly in the camp of the cop, however the video contained within the link when opened up to fit my screen allows several brief opportunities to look at Wilson as he rather calmly paces the scene, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see absolutely no evidence of him having sustained any injuries at all, no blood on the uniform, no effort at holding or supporting an injured portion of his body, nothing at all!
Shootings in that area are a bi-weekly and sometimes a weekly occurrence. I would not try to read too much into Officer Wilson's demeanor.
jerrysimons
08-20-14, 21:06
This one never did pass the smell test. Am I really supposed to believe the 18yr old child, gentle-giant Michael Brown, was gunned down in cold blood as he was fleeing like a scared gazelle from a vicious racist white cop?
I really do feel for officer Wilson, even if he is cleared of the shooting as I expect the evidence will show (the little evidence released leans this way). What is he going to do? Can't go back to work, he will have every thug gunning for him and a bounty on his head. His family could never live in safety. Lateral transfer? Maybe he hangs it up?
"To a forensic pathologist, the body diagram Brown's attorneys released tells a different story. The wound at the top of the head, the frontal wounds and angled right hand and arm wounds suggest that the victim was facing the officer, leaning forward with his right arm possibly extended in line with the gun's barrel, and not above his head."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/20/opinion/melinek-michael-brown-autopsy/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-20-14, 21:11
Yeah I mean I'm sure everyone here who has already been punched about the face and head and then gives chase to said 300lb attacker only to have attacker turn and charge at them would be all in the X-ring. Never mind any trauma recieved from the blows to their head/face and the aderaline dump coursing through their veins.
Edit: I didn't see GunBugBits post until after I posted mine.
I can just see it in the next match... "Shooter, your course of fire will be after the buzzer you will be konked on the head with a frozen turkey...."
Shootings in that area are a bi-weekly and sometimes a weekly occurrence. I would not try to read too much into Officer Wilson's demeanor.
The video where the guy in the background is coroborating the leaked officers version was interesting on that point. The guy shooting the video says something to the effect that he was inside and heard the shot, but knew that something was wrong since it was about noon and the gang bangers usually don't start shooting till the evening. Note, it wasn't the sound of shots fired, it was the timing that he found odd.
I see that the official story is going to be along the lines of the officer having been attacked, that he had been beaten severely. in the spirit of this threads attempts at explaining the preponderance of the officers shots hitting right due to whatever, I would also think that something else is emerging as curious, that being Officer Wilson's demeanor, and posture immediately following the shooting, he appears awfully calm in the sequences expressed in the images within this link, almost casual, and not in anyway demonstrating physical distress of any kind, nor does the officer that is standing next to him appear to be extending him any concern over any obvious injuries! Now I'm firmly in the camp of the cop, however the video contained within the link when opened up to fit my screen allows several brief opportunities to look at Wilson as he rather calmly paces the scene, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see absolutely no evidence of him having sustained any injuries at all, no blood on the uniform, no effort at holding or supporting an injured portion of his body, nothing at all!
We must be looking at different pictures. The ones that I'm looking at are so grainy that you can't even see his face.
We must be looking at different pictures. The ones that I'm looking at are so grainy that you can't even see his face.
There's a video clip at the bottom of the "The Daily Mail Link" that is worth a look. It is also of poor quality, but it really doesn't need to be of high quality, the officer is clearly ambulatory, and pacing calmly back and forth, by calmly I mean slowly, confidently, strolling about with no indication of any disability, no demonstrative indications of having sustained some fairly substantial & painful injuries, at one point with both hands clearly upon his utility belt as he strolls about, again with no obvious indication of any injury to him, his motions are fluid and unhindered, a fellow officer appears by his side as they await the arrival of backup, and again no indication of any injury, or handicap, which following such an assault would be all but plainly obvious to the responding cop, who makes him no apparent offer of physical assistance. I almost wonder if its even him?
MorphCross
08-21-14, 01:07
There's a video clip at the bottom of the "The Daily Mail Link" that is worth a look. It is also of poor quality, but it really doesn't need to be of high quality, the officer is clearly ambulatory, and pacing calmly back and forth, by calmly I mean slowly, confidently, strolling about with no indication of any disability, no demonstrative indications of having sustained some fairly substantial & painful injuries, at one point with both hands clearly upon his utility belt as he strolls about, again with no obvious indication of any injury to him, his motions are fluid and unhindered, a fellow officer appears by his side as they await the arrival of backup, and again no indication of any injury, or handicap, which following such an assault would be all but plainly obvious to the responding cop, who makes him no apparent offer of physical assistance. I almost wonder if its even him?
First it is Piaget who is purporting that that is in fact Officer Wilson. As the image is out of focus, more than likely due to the fact it was taken on a tiny aperture cell phone video camera it is hard to positively identify the person who is pacing as Officer Wilson. It could have been an Officer brought on to help secure the Scene.
Second, I'm no medical professional, so I won't comment on whether or not Officer Wilson could be ambulatory or not after allegedly suffering from a broken bone in his face. In that I would defer to anyone who specializes in facial bone trauma to answer.
Late last year I got into a fist fight with an armed robbery suspect in a kitchen. In the fight I ruptured a tendon in my right hand. It wasn't until several minutes later that I realized my fingers weren't working right. Didn't have very much pain because of the adrenaline from the vehicle pursuit and fight. The next day I was in a pretty good amount of pain. I needed surgery to repair the hand. Further I have been injured a few times in the Army and was able to work through the pain easily when the shit was going down.
As a F.F. and Rescue tech, I have arrived on several car accident scenes where the victim was ambulatory and looked normal from the distance this video was shot from. One later died from internal bleeding, the other had two broken vertebrae.
First it is Piaget who is purporting that that is in fact Officer Wilson. As the image is out of focus, more than likely due to the fact it was taken on a tiny aperture cell phone video camera it is hard to positively identify the person who is pacing as Officer Wilson. It could have been an Officer brought on to help secure the Scene.
Second, I'm no medical professional, so I won't comment on whether or not Officer Wilson could be ambulatory or not after allegedly suffering from a broken bone in his face. In that I would defer to anyone who specializes in facial bone trauma to answer.
I am a medical profession and can assure you that most young, healthy people with an isolated orbital blow out fx or mandible fx are ambulatory after the injury. In fact, most professional boxers and MMA fighters will continue to fight after this injury until the eye swells shut.
Not sure if this has been posted.... These girls while perhaps not ideal witnesses and even somewhat unclear in their answers don't strike me as trying to create a scenario. Their voices, manners, etc...
I still fell like some compelling piece of the puzzle is missing. For instance did others hear MB say "what are you going to do?" and actually charge him. These girls are saying there was a pretty good distance from leo and where he landed. "Joise" said he landed only a couple feet away..... Certainly that will have bearing on his reasonable actions. Even 20 feet is not far but we seem to have at least an 18 disagreement as to distance when he finally dropped. and maybe if someone is chargeing you in those circumstances, then 18 feet is too close for comfort... I don't know.
But Trayvon Martin had it not been for an EW saying they saw him pounding on Z-man MMA style , I think Mr. Z would be in prison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=advkpZIuq2U
First it is Piaget who is purporting that that is in fact Officer Wilson.
If you are talking about the video with two leo and the body... the guy on right kinda bald head is Wilson. That is confirmed by practically everyone. He's on right then paces off to left at one point. From that video I would never be able to tell if he was hurt or not... he doesn't look like a happy camper though and I wouldn't exactly say he's calm. He actually seems like more of a concerned even pleading at one point... like why did this happen like this... I never meant for any of this to happen. That's the feeling I get watching the silent movie.
I friend told me that two independent forensic pathologists found there was "no evidence of a struggle" between him and the police officer.
Does anyone know anything about this?
I friend told me that two independent forensic pathologists found there was "no evidence of a struggle" between him and the police officer.
Does anyone know anything about this?
Do you have the names of the Forensic Pathologists? I thought Mary Case performed the first autopsy and I haven't heard there was a statement to the effect there was "no evidence of a struggle".
Do you have the names of the Forensic Pathologists? I thought Mary Case performed the first autopsy and I haven't heard there was a statement to the effect there was "no evidence of a struggle".
Nope. That's why I asked; I haven't heard anything about it.
Nope. That's why I asked; I haven't heard anything about it.
I heard Dr. Mary Case performed the first autopsy. She is a highly respected Forensic Pathologist with extensive experience. She would have had access to and collected all of the physical evidence on the body.
It was my understanding that Michael Baden performed the second autopsy at the request of the family. I don't know if he had access to the physical evidence or just performed an examination of the body.
I don't know who the Department of Justice used to perform the third autopsy.
Who knows who will perform the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th autopsy.
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