View Full Version : Best Brand For Civilian M4A2?
Mick_In_Texas
06-13-08, 19:24
New to M4 and the Forum.
Reason I'm here, is because I got an M4A2 two months ago in .223 Remington for a number of reasons. It took me almost 2 years to be convinced of the rifle, and round's, versatility and functionality; and several months to pay for it.
Now, I have learned--thanks to many fine folks HERE--my brand and my individual weapon has some problems, and this prior to firing for the first time.
I MUCH prefer the M4 configuration (collapsable/adjustable compo stock, birdcage carrying handle, 16" carbine barrel length, Izzy flash suppressor) to a "conventional" AR15.
I have not yet given up on my unfired M4; but I am VERY curious as to more experienced M4/AR15 fans's opinions, as I pursue another thread about my current M4.
Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick
toddackerman
06-14-08, 09:29
Welcome Mick!
You didn't state what rifle you bought. If we know, we can advise you on what you might want to do to it to bring it up to par.
OldNavyGuy
06-14-08, 09:40
New to M4 and the Forum.
...birdcage carrying handle,
Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick
birdcage carrying handle,
that is something new ?? got a photo ? :D :D
Jay Cunningham
06-14-08, 09:43
that is something new ?? got a photo ? :D :D
I think somebody missed a comma.
Failure2Stop
06-14-08, 10:22
I think MicK has picked up incorrect terminology, judging from his other post on this topic and the inclusion of the "Izzy Flash Hider". Also from Mick's other post, this is a BM carbine, with the usual BM issues.
Mick-
The rear sight is called simply that, the rear sight. There is no such thing as a "birdcage" carry handle. The "birdcage" is usually used to describe an A1 flash-hider, i.e.- birdcage flashhider. It is also not an M4A2. The latest M4 is the M4A1, which is different than the M4 in that it has a full-auto trigger group. There are several generations of M4s, some that came with fixed A2 style sights and standard furniture, up through those that have a rail system, flat-top upper, and a heavy barrel. A2/A3 designations by Bushmaster (http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_military_MCWA2F14M4.asp) are simply names for specific models in their line-up that relate to whether they have fixed A2 style sights or a removable sight (which some call A3, though not all A3s have it, nor did it orignate with the M16A3).
If I were going to buy a new gun, knowing what I know now, I would do pretty much what this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14446) advocates.
Jay Cunningham
06-14-08, 10:27
I think MicK has picked up incorrect terminology, judging from his other post on this topic and the inclusion of the "Izzy Flash Hider". Also from Mick's other post, this is a BM carbine, with the usual BM issues.
Mick-
The rear sight is called simply that, the rear sight. There is no such thing as a "birdcage" carry handle. The "birdcage" is usually used to describe an A1 flash-hider, i.e.- birdcage flashhider. It is also not an M4A2. The latest M4 is the M4A1, which is different than the M4 in that it has a full-auto trigger group. There are several generations of M4s, some that came with fixed A2 style sights and standard furniture, up through those that have a rail system, flat-top upper, and a heavy barrel. A2/A3 designations by Bushmaster (http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_military_MCWA2F14M4.asp) are simply names for specific models in their line-up that relate to whether they have fixed A2 style sights or a removable sight (which some call A3, though not all A3s have it, nor did it orignate with the M16A3).
If I were going to buy a new gun, knowing what I know now, I would do pretty much what this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14446) advocates.
Thanks for taking the time to educate, F2S.
Mick_In_Texas
06-14-08, 15:53
As F2S said, from my other one thread here, I've got a Bushmaster M4A2 (their designation). While trying to learn about it, and from the other thread, I know that the castle nut on the adjustable stock isn't staked at ALL, and the carrier bolt stakings are very minimal.
All the wonderful, and appreciated, comments to me as a new fan of the .223 Remington "Little Black Rifle" are helping. As I have time, I'm trying to see and save all the links you fine folks are giving me.
Here's my Bushy:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/Firearms/BushmasterM4A2Right.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/Firearms/BushmasterM4A2Left.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/Firearms/BushmasterM4A2IzzyCarbine.jpg
I'm likely going to have to see how it works, and find sources to make the necessary modifications... I'm pretty meat and potatoes on firearms--LOVING a basic 1911 platform for my carry weapon, as opposed to other platfoms that I own, and have or have shot... but, that situation assumed, I really appreciate the advice, and the links. Rifles are complicated to me, but a person needs at least one... in a good caliber (I also have a rugged old Chinese SKS in 7.62x39mm, a .30-cal, which I prefer)... but on the other hand...
... selling the Bushy is a possibility: it hasn't been fired yet, I'm still learning about this platform. I like the collapsable/adjustable stock on the M4 version as opposed to the AR15 version of the platform. It took a dealer almost two years to convince me that the .223 Remington is a viable, versatile round; he's former Army (and a rifle sharpshooter), and he convinced me. But for all my life, since the early 80s, I've had great luck with every firearm I've owned: all 100%, from my Berettas and Smith to my current Taurus, Rugers, Springers, Colts, RIA, Mossbergs current and past, and Chinese SKS. The Bushy, I'm not so sure of. And that saddens me. On the other hand, if I keep it, it might be made to be serviceable and reliable.
THANK YOU ALL for your help. Like my 1911 forum, you folks here are the salt of the earth. It's folks like you that helped me learn so much about my favored pistol platform (I'm considered extremely knowledgeable on that, now, thanks to a lot of folks on that other forum)... and I hope to enter this learning journey on the AR15/M4 rifle platform as well. I have--thanks to y'all. Continue to comment! I'm reading and checking all of this, folks.
Y'all take care. Talk soon.
Mick
OldNavyGuy
06-15-08, 08:57
I think somebody missed a comma.
i know.., i just had to make a "funny" of it ;)
Mick glad to see you here and glad to see you are getting into this platform. You are right about this forum there is a weath of knowledge here. There are industry pros here that are more than helpful.
if i were you, i would sell it and take that same money and buy a smith and wesson ar15 with removable carry handle. better solution is to buy an lmt, noveske, or colt. though you can get a new stripped upper with flat top and do a few improvments to make that rifle viable.
Mick if you have reservations about that rifle sell it and get a Colt 6920 or a Noveske. I know you have some premium 1911's and know about quality. I go with Colt because that is all I have ever known but people here with a lot of of knowledge speak highly of Noveske. Either way you will have one that is good to go and you will have the utmost confidence in.
It's hard to beat a Colt 6920. There are ways to mix and match your way to a "better" or "almost as good" gun for less money, but it's still hard to beat a 6920.
You might also look at the N4 Light Basic (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lcb&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) and the N4 Light Recce Basic (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lrb&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=). Both come with parts that many would consider "upgrades" from the Colt (Vltor stock, Tango Down pistol grip, Troy rear sight) as well as a barrel that is arguably more accurate than a stock Colt and with a profile that certainly makes much more logical sense than an M4 profile but at the same weight.
My personal observation, given the info you've provided, is that you'll likely never utilize your AR in a manner that will cause you any issue. However, if by chance you plan to put it through it's paces and feed it over a 1000 rounds in a two day carbine course, then I would suggest things like staking the castle nut and proper staking of the carrier key (and a few of the other enhancements you see mentioned on this forum).
My personal observation, given the info you've provided, is that you'll likely never utilize your AR in a manner that will cause you any issue. However, if by chance you plan to put it through it's paces and feed it over a 1000 rounds in a two day carbine course, then I would suggest things like staking the castle nut and proper staking of the carrier key (and a few of the other enhancements you see mentioned on this forum).
That is a good point. depending on use things like staking may never become an issue and if they do it won't have any more serious consequences than ruining a day at the range. And, as said, even then applying the proper staking can go a long way towards alleviating even these issues.
As F2S said, from my other one thread here, I've got a Bushmaster M4A2 (their designation). While trying to learn about it, and from the other thread, I know that the castle nut on the adjustable stock isn't staked at ALL, and the carrier bolt stakings are very minimal.
I have the exact same weapon in an A3, and after about 3,000 rounds now it has never had a single issue. No FTF's, no FTE's, no loose parts. Almost all of the 3,000 rounds have been 5.56.
All the wonderful, and appreciated, comments to me as a new fan of the .223 Remington
If you don't already know, stay on the look out for good priced 5.56 ammo as opposed to standard .223. Your gun should shoot them fine, having a 5.56 chamber. If not, don't tolerate it. But, make sure the ammo is up to par before jumping to any conclusions.
Mick_In_Texas
06-16-08, 20:11
THANK YOU ALL SO FAR. I'm humbled, and honored: you folks are every bit as fine as my friends and teachers over on a couple of M1911 pistol forums.
Basically: I DO like the platform... having admittedly resisted it for many years. I DO like the two variants: .223 Remington and 5.56X45mm NATO M193--which from YOU folks, I've learned are just slightly different, but will function in an AR15 or M4. I resisted the caliber for many years as well.
I'm trying to decide, prior to firing the Bushy, what my course of action will be. I'm taking EVERYTHING everyone is providing me into consideration. It is SO appreciated.
I may have to keep the weapon. It's true that I'm probably not going to go through 5000 rounds in some kind of combat course. I know that makes a difference. That said, I'm said that Bushmaster didn't stake the castle nut: that IS a problem, with few firings! Because I know if it starts loosening, you've got to have a special tool to tighten it back up.
The bolt carrier is one of those 50/50 situations. Sad that the staking isn't adequate; yet, on the other hand... know from YOU folks what proper staking there should look like (and I used to be a mechanic, I knew mine wasn't adequate for what it's intended to do, secure the bolts from loosening in recoil and firing) but also, y'all have told me about a gentleman who can "re-stake" carriers that are deficient.
Buddy at work has a Bushmaster! AR15. He's had no probs, but he states he's only fired about 100 rounds through it. I'm probably going to take my own M4 carrier to work ("they" won't know what it is, LOL) and show it to him. Just in case his needs attention. He's an M1A kinda guy--.30 cal (7.62X51mm, and used to have an AK47 in 7.62X39mm, like my SKS)... but appreciates the utility of the .223/5.56 round.
I'm thinking, mulling over my options. Part of me would like to sell BOTH the Bushy as unfired, and my SKS, well-used but solid and reliable... and go for another brand M4. I really do like it, and generally it ain't gonna be a hunting rifle. The other part, says take some folks's advice, see if I can get my Bushy up to snuff (that Cliff gentleman's company, in re: the carrier bolts)... don't know about the castle nut, though. Looked at a "universal M4/AR15 tool" at Midway last night... similar to my Wilson Combat M1911 Multi-Tool... Hard choices.
Believe me, I really appreciate the positive responses here! I don't have a lot of disposable income, and I'm considering EVERYTHING y'all are sharing with me. It's just a hard situation for ME, 'cause I've never had a firearm (and I've had, and have many) that had any problems. Regardless of the usage.
Like y'all say, GOOD AMMO is critical to me: the reason I ran circles with a Springer Mil-Spec and Ruger P90 around EVERY OTHER GUN--including a Thompson Contender--several years ago, is 'cause I use GOOD AMMO. Magazines, I know, from my 1911 experience, are also crucial. I've ordered several Magpuls. 30-rounders. I DO believe for me, the .223/5.56 is a GREAT caliber... so, I'm working on getting, or making, a serviceable, reliable rifle that shoots this.
Y'all take care. You folks are THE BEST here, for this platform. Thank you. I'm into it, but I've got a lot to learn. Y'all are so good to help me learn.
Mick
Welcome to the 'Black Rifle' club Mick! Congrats on your first AR! In re: to the castle nut, you can stake that yourself with a medium size punch and a hammer. Make sure it is as tight as it can go either using a castle nut wrench or by using a large flat tip screwdriver and hitting with a hammer to move the castle nut a little at a time till tight. Just get a little square of metal from the plate to be inside the little squares on your castle nut (usually 3 squares but on all of my AR's only 2 are stakeable as one is always in a bad position). The tip of the punch should almost fill up the square in the castle nut and then place more of the tip toward the end plate so when you strike it with the hammer, metal from the end plate fills up the square on the castle nut. Best of luck to you brother and happy shooting!:cool:
Nice Bushmaster Mick. I've had one for a couple of years now and I love everything about it.
Mick_In_Texas
06-17-08, 21:48
I partially field stripped my M4 last night, and took the bolt carrier to work today.
The staking there is indeed minimal, BUT... this is looking at it from the "back" as it rides in the rifle... on the LEFT side of the two allen screws, the staking "pings" actually make contact with the striations in the head of the screws. The RIGHT side, they have no contact. Possibly, it might hold. It's pretty dicey. I examined it with a magnifying glass under flourescent lighting. I showed it to my buddy, who has that Bushy AR15... and was surprised, that he's never cleaned it or taken it down "that far (his words upon seeing me with the bolt carrier in his office)"... to me, I've minimally field stripped it to get to the bolt carrier. It was odd to me that he'd never seen his upper assembly bolt carrier. He did find it interesting, though, on this staking issue; of course, he has an AR15 stock on his, not like my M4.
I still think Bushmaster did a "slop job" on my bolt carrier, despite the fact that it may "hold" as is. It appears that the employee who was staking the bolt carrier, was trying to "finess" it. And it didn't totally work... but it may have FUNCTIONALLY worked, due to the left stakings. I don't know.
The castle nut definitely has NO staking. That's not good, as I've said.
I'm still trying to decide what to do. I'm still MUCHLY appreciating your input and instruction. E98T, thanks for this response in re: doing the castle nut myself... I do worry about the finish. But, I keep mine lubed and clean, not overlubed. Safetyhit's input, causes me to think my applications, may make my Bushy viable. Got to do something about that darn castle nut, though, if not the bolt carrier.
Other than these two issues, the weapon seems solid. Finish is good, I've racked two mags (30 rounds) through it, with no problems. Internal finish looks good. My work buddy's AR15 is dead on at 200 yds, without any obstructions, although for game he prefers his .30 cals... My dealer was an Army marksman with his M16 (Colt) at 600 meters, max; he LOVES our "little black rifle"! I DO like the sight pattern on the A2 version: VERY easy to get on target quickly, it seems, with the front sight and the little "tang" in the top of the rear sight in the "handle". Most of my experience is with "iron" sights, not scopes anyways...
texasyid, rob_s, THANK YOU on the good Colt's model; my Colt's 1911s are ALL excellent. I will remember this.
My Bushy may be "salvageable" or "keepable". But doesn't mean I won't go for a Colt's 6920. I'm liking the caliber/s, for what I want them for.
I just can't tell you folks how MUCH I appreciate all this input! I am honored and humbled, and just flat-out thankful. You are all helping me more than ANY of my real-time gun buddies, who are either misinformed or erroneous on their "knowledge".
Oh... btw... my Magpull 30-rd mags were delivered to the apartment office today; I'll pick them up tomorrow. Regardless of my rifle/s, I am certain I'm going to keep at least ONE M4 version. If not more than one...
Y'all take care. Talk to y'all soon...
Mick
Mick, you are very gracious. Thank-you.
I have to say at this point that you may be over thinking the issue, with all due respect. If the weapon continues to preform well for you, maybe re-stake the two keys if need be and move on. Unless you plan to attend a course or otherwise just run the gun very heavy, you should be fine. Based upon my personal experience with my M4 Izzy, at this time I would give it the benefit of the doubt unless forced to do otherwise.
BushmasterFanBoy
06-18-08, 13:56
I have to say at this point that you may be over thinking the issue, with all due respect.
I've got to agree with this. Although this forum is almost entirely anti-Bushmaster, (a well earned reputation certainly), it is sometimes taken to the extreme. In this case it seems to have bothered a new rifle owner, who should be happy with his new purchase and is instead over analyzing and nit-picking on points that really are not even that big of an issue.
The staking on the castle nut is an example of this. Yes, there are instances of this coming loose, but with a bit of blue loctite you can usually keep it secure enough to stand up to hard use, yet still removable if you ever get the itch to take off the stock.
I've got a carrier bolt that is lightly staked on one of my Bushmasters. I have fired literally thousands upon thousands of rounds through the weapon, so many that when I sent the upper in for work, Randall of AR15 barrels commented that the upper was "about 30% used up". I know that this is just the internet and my "story" is worth less than a grain of salt, but I have never experienced any problems yet. Your experience may vary, but based on mine, I wouldn't worry about it.
What I would upgrade are some basic things that can easily be purchase relatively cheaply to bring your rifle up to par. Once again this isn't a must have, it's simply an item to add to help enhance reliability, and decrease the likelihood of issues cropping up.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm
The item description sums up this product rather well.
AND This:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/H-Carbine-Buffer-p/buffer%20carbine%20h.htm
Yes you could simply sell your Bushmaster and purchase what is undeniably a better weapon, the Colt 6920. However based on what you have said about your usage and the amount of money you wish to spend, I wouldn't recommend it. The differences between the two may only begin to show during high round counts, where the reliability enhancements prove their worth. If you're not going to be doing this, then really it would be a waste of resources to purchase one.
You haven't even shot the gun yet. It will most likely run perfectly fine for you, especially since you've got the most critical component down, the magazines. If it doesn't run fine, THEN I would visit this forum and bask in the Bushmaster hatred in order to see what you need to fix. As is the phrase; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". You don't know if it's broke yet.
Good luck!
Mick,
Nice to see a gentleman as your self. As stated above, you are very gracious and seem to be a honorable man.
I would stake the castle nut and re-stake the BCG and shoot the heck out of it until you need to fix something. After a while, if you still love the platform, go get yourself a nice tier one rifle.
I have had a XM-15 Bushy for several years and have not done anything you are worried about to it and it has been fine, but I have not used it at any class and have not run it hard like I do with my others. I plan to keep it as a starter gun for my son, but do plan on doing the modifications that you are worried about eventually.
Enjoy.
+1 on the over thinking, I'm no BM fan, but at least go shoot it first.
Wasn't there a thread around here about upgrading BM/RRA/DPMS etc.? Check that out, also the thread by Grant on being a BM dealer has some useful info.
After shooting it for awhile, and in the interest of "insurance" I'd make the upgrades as listed in the above threads. Either see if a local smith can do it, or contact Grant.
Not sure I'd sell it right off, unless it was a duty gun. I'd make the upgrades and use it as a training gun, and get a Colt/LMT/Noveske as funds became available.
Bob
Wasn't there a thread around here about upgrading BM/RRA/DPMS etc.?
Knowledge base threads sitcky.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
Mick,
Send your bolt carrier to Grant at G&R Tactical and have him stake the bolt carrier for you. I think he charges $5 plus shipping. I have never staked the castle nut on any of my carbines.
Enjoy your new Bushmaster. Shoot it often and have fun!
;)
Mick_In_Texas
06-18-08, 20:50
THANK YOU ALL!!!
I've met many very fine folks and learned much on the M1911 forum I visit. YOU FOLKS are their equals: I am just astounded by the information and support you've shown me, one individual among thousands of "little black rifle" owners. I can't say enough in thanks and appreciation.
Try to be brief, although it's hard in the response to all this EXCELLENT instruction and guidance. First, I'm NOT offended by my over-thinking: I'm mildly OCD, so, yes, I tend to overthink in SOME situations. And I believe, after visiting the MANY links you folks have provided, I have done that in this situation. Now, I'm moving away from that, and have made some decisions tonight, visiting links and reading y'all's responses...
My somewhat-survivalist work buddy has a Bushmaster AR15. I may have mentioned it last night, we had to work all day in no a/c building situation today, in 98 degree weather, I'm a little ragged out. He's fired a number of .223 Remington rounds through it, and never had a failure to feed or eject, and it's pretty dead-on out to about 300 yards with no brush interference. It's been 100% reliable in THAT usage. He has a Springer M1A in .308 that's caused him more probs than the Bushy, although with mil-spec ball ammo it's 100%. He was fascinated by my bolt carrier yesterday, LOL... he's never seen HIS. Guy is salt of the earth, but, man, he needs to clean his weapons more often! LOL... his was the first 1911 Government I ever cleaned and reassembled (sans a manual), because he let me take it home prior to me buying my first, and I couldn't stand seeing a fine weapon dirty that long... LOL... but, point: his Bushy so far has been 100%. Likely soon I'll be the first to field strip it for him. I'll see what the bolt carrier looks like. He wants me to show him how; while I'm no expert, at least I know how NOW to break one down minimally, and get it back together... LOL.
Basically, my decision is this: I'm keeping my M4 Izzy from Bushmaster. Finish and fit are VERY GOOD. Likely I'll contact Grant, and get my bolt carrier re-staked by G&R; insurance. I'm going to get the AR15/M4 multitool, so I can manipulate my castle nut, and Blue Loctite it.
Got my Magpul 30-rounders today, 4, in "foliage green", and they are BEAUTIFUL. Not much of a polymer man, but I know my Wilson Combat 1911 mags, with their polymer followers, are EXCELLENT, and I'm really impressed with the FEEL of these Magpuls. THANK THIS FORUM AND YOU PEOPLE FOR MY EXTRA MAGS! These magazines are SOLID. I like the little poly "covers" for loaded mag storage, on the feed end to protect the lips and top round.
Like several have noted and commented, MY Bushy ain't a combat arm. I HOPE never to have to use it continuously or in defense. I do want to run a couple of hundred rounds thought it on a regular, but rare occasion; just for training and practice and the pure joy of target shooting. But unlike our brave U.S. men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan, and their predecessors in Desert Storm, Bosnia, Somalia, and Viet Nam, I'm not gonna be subjecting my weapon/s to thousands of rounds over a short period of time. I've got that ol' reliable and rugged SKS for my .30 cal... I'm keeping my Bushy, with some of the above minor modifications.
I bein' Texan understand, "Don't fix it if it ain't broke." I don't think it's "broke" any longer, I think it has some challenges that are correctable. Easily and inexpensively. Yeah, I'd like to have that Colt, TOO, and I've always wanted both an M1 Garand and an M1A; heck, let's add a BAR Repro to that list, too, they're available if you have the MONEY in a semi-auto version. I think for ME, if it fires reliably after the minor mods above, my Bushy will WORK for me. On the lands, it's always got a .45 backup on my hip!
This is not to "close" this thread, I want to learn all I can about this platform! But for now, mine is a Bushy. Luck blesses me, mabye another later, since I've come to accept the utility of the .223 Remington and the M193 5.56X45mm NATO rounds.
I cannot thank you people enough for your comments, responses and help. I am beginning to LOVE this platform, as I do my beloved 1911 pistols. My 1911s are retro tech, that STILL WORKS (best darn pistol ever MADE, to ME); my M4 Izzy, and the M4/AR15 in general--one of the most popular semi-automatic rifles in existence--is modern tech, that WORKS.
I LOVE stuff that WORKS. Y'all take care and be safe. Hope to contribute some funds to THIS forum SOON...
Mick
Mick enjoy the Bushy it will serve you well and don't forget the range report.
I only tried to steer you torward the 6920 because I have seen the extremley nice 1911's you have. I also have a 6920 myself and am very happy with it. I have a feeling that in time there will be other Ar's coming your way. They are addictive to say the least. Enjoy! Fun times.
"Basically, my decision is this: I'm keeping my M4 Izzy from Bushmaster. Finish and fit are VERY GOOD. Likely I'll contact Grant, and get my bolt carrier re-staked by G&R; insurance. I'm going to get the AR15/M4 multitool, so I can manipulate my castle nut, and Blue Loctite it."
Good decision. That Bushy will be fine. Many, many thousands of owners shoot thousands and thousands of rounds through their Bushmaster carbines every year with no problems. No, it's not a Colt or Noveske...those are the Mercedes guns and the last word in quality (and even they are not immune to problems). But the Bushy, once the couple of easily-accomplished mods you are going to do are done, will almost certainly be a nice reliable Chevy for you. I have a Bushy, a Colt, a Sabre Defense, and a S&W. And while the Colt is my favorite, I have to say the Bushy has been about as solid as any of them. (And yeah, I did restake the carrier key screws). ;)
Yes, I have to agree you are over thinking this. Get off the keyboard and get out to the range for goodness sake!!
I have the same rifle in an "A3" flattop configuration. I have only done the minimal "UPGRADES" such as an H buffer, staked the castle and gas key, crane o-ring and spring. I trust this rifle 100% and have NO issues after said upgrades (the extractor o-ring I feel is the most important) after several thousand rounds of now 8 different brands of .223 and 5.56. I shoot about 420-500 rounds per visit via 18 different magazines. It shoots AMAZING groups with battle sight zero at 50 yards; good to 200 yards with open iron sights. It really brings a smile to my face.
Toss some Mobile-1 on the BCG and let er' rip!
If someone gave me a Colt, I'd sell it immediately. They're fine, but I like my Bushmaster better. There's pretty much one good dealer in the area here. Our various local PD's all swear by their precious "pony" rifles, and yet they're always bringing them back with one thing or another wrong. Never once seen a Bushy have to get sent back.
In fact, if Bushy made a 1x7 stainless 20" barrel, I'd stick with them for my next upper as well.
If you are going to keep the BM, I would recommend investing in a quality, MPI'd spare bolt, and stowing it on the weapon somewhere. That way you can shoot the snot out of your BM with no worries. I would recommend this as prudent for any AR platform weapon, not just BM.
This is what I am using:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-Bolt-Assembly-MPI-p/bcm%20bolt%20assemly%20mp.htm
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=204
I like my Bushmaster better.
Can you qualify this statement?
Failure2Stop
06-19-08, 15:40
If someone gave me a Colt, I'd sell it immediately. They're fine, but I like my Bushmaster better.
:rolleyes:
It's one thing to identify potential issues and correct them. It's another thing entirely to disregard the benchmark to favor a known under-performer that requires fixing to bring it up to Colt standard.
I am quite interested to know why you prefer a BM over a Colt.
If you are going to keep the BM, I would recommend investing in a quality, MPI'd spare bolt, and stowing it on the weapon somewhere. That way you can shoot the snot out of your BM with no worries. I would recommend this as prudent for any AR platform weapon, not just BM.
This is what I am using:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-Bolt-Assembly-MPI-p/bcm%20bolt%20assemly%20mp.htm
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=204
+1. This is good advice, IMO.
Mick_In_Texas
06-19-08, 20:35
Interesting as always information here...
texasyid apparently has seen my beloved 1911 platform pistols. They are all excellent. I fire them more than I will likely fire my M4; but even the most economical of those, my Armscor RIA, as well as my Springfields and my Colts, is 100% and is my secondary carry weapon. I DO favor a certain Colt's on the highways on long trips; and I am fooling with another of my Colts for a secondary or tertiary carry pistol.
Back to M4/AR15 though... Yes, I'm old-fashioned in some ways (M1911 pistols), new fashioned in others (handling and breakdown, prefer my M4 over my SKS or Mossberg shotgun). I'd like to consider a Colt M4 in the future. But, I believe thanks to you folks--and I've contacted Grant at G & R on my bolt carrier key screw staking--my Bushmaster will work for me for now. With the suggested minor "tweaks".
The Bushmaster AR15 my work buddy has has been, in our situations, 100%. I do want to get hold of it--as well as his M1A--and break that sucker down for him, see what is inside it. What the components look like, especially the bolt carrier screws. Thing is, however many rounds he's fed it, it's been working.
I've even seen a thread here where a person was having probs with the Magpul magazines. Personally, even though I mentioned I'm not a "polymer" kidna guy, I like my 4 Magpuls better than my 2 Bushy OEMS, although all 6 work. That's really saying something for ME. I like the Foliage Green better than the powder grey on the Bushmasters, too.
I may try to go to a rifle range BEFORE mid-July, and run a few through my Bushmaster; I may not be able to, but definitely WILL in mid-July. While I believe in .30 cal--esp. .30-06 and .308, as well as 7.62X39--I MUCH prefer the feel and the target acquisition ease on my M4 as compared to my SKS. Like my beloved 1911s, it's just serviceable to get on target quickly. It took YEARS to convince me of the viability and utility of the M16/AR15/M4 platform--having known SEVERAL American Viet Nam veterans who despised the finickiness and unreliability of both the original M16 Colt and the challenge the 5.56X45 had in brush and undergrowth compared to the opposition's 7.62x39mm .30 cals--I know the working theory: smaller round, greater capacity, lighter weight, more rounds per pound--but flexibility and stopping power are what matter in defensive situations. Been there, done that, 3 times as a civilian. I try to choose my weapons and their caliber/s well. I LIKE the AR15/M4 and the .223 Rem/5.56x45mm for urban situations, especially... and recreational and plinking.
I'm working on ALL the GREAT instructions here... got those Pmags... contacted Mr. Grant... looking at castle nut tools, o-rings, and H buffers. I like my rifle platform. Yeah, I HOPE to eventually acquire a Colt's in my RIFLE platform, as I did in my pistol platform; but I'm keeping my Bushy. No, I wasn't 100% happy with it after learning from this forum and all you good folks; but, I'm now not all that disappointed with it. For now, with adding y'all's suggestions, it's going to have to do. I think it will, for MY applications...
And yes, I'll give y'all a range report in a few weeks. I am SO thankful to have found this place...
Mick
........................................................
:confused: ...........................................nevermind.
decodeddiesel
06-19-08, 21:53
I'm likely going to have to see how it works, and find sources to make the necessary modifications...
Outstanding. If you are going to keep it I would suggest putting at least 1000 rounds through it, just the way it is. Then as you stated, figure out what works, what doesn't work and go from there. Even in the totally stock trim the M4 is a very capable and fun weapon. Take it from a gun nut (big H&K and AK fan) who went to war twice with the platform. There is nothing I mean NOTHING I would have rather had with me in Iraq other than an M4.
Good choice Mick.
I think you will get a lot of joy from your Bushy and it should perform fine especially after your intended mods for the purpose you need it for.
As others have said, just shoot the hell out of it and and if you are still in love, you can start saving for a Tier 1, like the elusive Colt 6920.
Have fun and shoot safe!
Failure2Stop
06-20-08, 11:02
Mick-
Every AR owner should have a spare bolt. With that in mind, I would advise buying a BCM BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM), and set your BM BGC aside as the spare (once properly staked).
Mick_In_Texas
06-20-08, 19:00
Outstanding. If you are going to keep it I would suggest putting at least 1000 rounds through it, just the way it is. Then as you stated, figure out what works, what doesn't work and go from there. Even in the totally stock trim the M4 is a very capable and fun weapon. Take it from a gun nut (big H&K and AK fan) who went to war twice with the platform. There is nothing I mean NOTHING I would have rather had with me in Iraq other than an M4.
... because as folks who "cross over" here from the M1911 pistol forums know, I am particularly supportive of our American military men and women: I have been disabled since I was a teen, and was unable to serve the country in this way (I fight battles actively within our physical boundaries, but so far without "hard" weapons); my father, grandfathers, many relatives, and many friends and co-workers have not only served, but done combat tours everywhere from the brutal tenches in WWI to the scathing heat and tension of the the urban situations of Iraq and Afghanistan... In all branches of service, I have also known or been related to those who made the ultimate sacrifice. Thank you, sir, for your service. It is greatly appreciated. I do not intend to offend the moderators, but so be it if I do on THIS issue. That said...
Another piece of EXCELLENT instruction. I believe I will do just this: fire as is the first few times. I'll clean her this weekend, re-lube, and mark a date on my calendar next couple of weeks to take a trip to one of the rifle ranges with my ammo and those Pmags, as well as the Bushys.
As you say, I definitely want to get a re-stake on my bolt carrier and attend to the castle nut; the more minor "tweaks", links saved in a separate folder for the future "doings".
Hunting, I prefer a .30. Other situations, especially in urban or open-field situations... I now LIKE the .223 or 5.56. But the .223 or 5.56 would also function as a game-harvesting rifle if need be.
I'll respond to the new helps in another post. Appreciation to ALL the military veterans and current members, combat or no, but especially those who have been or are in harm's way.
Mick
Mick_In_Texas
06-20-08, 19:13
Mick-
Every AR owner should have a spare bolt. With that in mind, I would advise buying a BCM BCG (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM), and set your BM BGC aside as the spare (once properly staked).
Of course, F2S: links saved and filed in that folder, and thank you for this suggestion! See my previous post to diesel; I think for now, I'll just take her out the next couple of weeks "as is" and see what the results are. For Fringe, yes, that "elusive" Colt 6920 may be a goal: actually, when I first fell in love with the 1911 platform, I started with less-costly basics and ended up with four Colts--I still love and cherish ALL my 1911s, though--and the 6920 may the modern-weapon equivalent to my realized dream of owning an original Colt's M1911 from WWI (mine is Nov 1918 manufacture, and in excellent, and WORKING, condition, although she won't ever have to "work" much!)... I'll see how the Bushy feels and handles in a firing situation, regardless of my planned "tweaks"; but so far, I'm liking this platform and the .223 Rem/5.56 M193 caliber. I know I prefer the handling and empty-chamber sight acquisition on my M4 MUCH over my SKS or my dad's .30-30 lever action... some reason, that A2 rear sight aperture and that front sight inside the "guards" just WORK for my eye on a rifle. Seems so far to be a very eye/mind friendly sights system, as far as iron/unenhanced sighting systems go. I noticed that the day I picked it up, even before I got it out of my FFL's shop!
Keep going, fine folks, 'cause I'll listen and note as long as y'all feel inspired to instruct. Y'all take care and have a great weekend.
Mick
Most will say Colt. I wont support Colt for a myriad of reasons so id say LMT but I have had no issued w/ my Bushmaster or STAG or Armalite
in re: doing the castle myself... I do worry about the finish.Mick, one trick I've seen AR-builders do (including myself) is to put a layer or two of masking tape around the area before working on it. I prefer 2 layers. That protects the finish, unless you really sledgehammer the thing. I suggest you remove your lower from your upper before doing the staking, and make sure you have something like a towel under the lower to protect the side that's facing down. All in all, a couple of medium whacks with a hammer and punch should do the trick.
1911s are my favorite pistol type, and I've disassembled mine as far as you can disassembly them several times. To me, the AR isn't any more complicated than a 1911, except when it comes to assembling an A2-style rear sight or mounting a barrel to an upper. Even then, those things aren't exactly complicated; they just take a little more patience and care. Also, I'd much rather replace a trigger group in an AR than adjust the trigger pull in a 1911. So if you can disassemble and reassemble a 1911, you can handle an AR.
The only other area of an AR that I'm not entirely familiar with is the gas port system, such as the relationships between barrel length and gas tube length, and how gas port sizes affect things. But I doubt you'll need to bother with any of that anytime soon (or ever).
Does Mick have any 1911's I wonder?
Does Mick have any 1911's I wonder?I've heard rumors ....
Mick_In_Texas
06-24-08, 22:28
I've heard rumors ....
I have many 1911 platform pistols, as well as a shotgun, three other handguns, and two rifles, including my Bushy M4A2 Izzy carbine (Model XM15-E2S). Firearms are tools: they're not inherently "good" or "bad". They just are what they are. PEOPLE are good or bad. I have a friend who is a lieutenant for Texas Department of Criminal Justice--the Texas prison system--and he wants a personal "assault rifle" (I do not use that term for my Bushmaster, or ANY of the M16/AR15/M4 civilian variants: it is a misnomer cooked up by folks and entities I don't like; it is a gas-operated, semi-automatic, bolt operated rifle JUST LIKE MY CONVENTIONAL-LOOKING SKS, not an "assault rifle"--it is JUST a RIFLE) so bad he can taste it. I am soon going to recommend his getting an M4 variant: the mentioned Colt, or even a Bushmaster. TDCJ in cases use M16s (Colts), fully-automatic, and the Winchester .30-30 lever action rifles (yeah, they still guard offenders on work detail on horses in Texas, and that saddle scabbard holds a .30-30, NOT an M16) as well as .357 Mag revolvers, not so much pistols. The M4 configuration is what convinced me to go with a .223/5.56x45mm NATO caliber rifle: I LIKE IT. I like its looks. I'm now convince the caliber has its utilities.
For defensive purposes in an urban situation, give me a 1911 in .45ACP and my M4A2, or my 12-gauge shotgun, FIRST. Not my SKS or my 9mm or .38/.357Mag. There are reasons for that.
Mr. Grant has responded to my e-mail, and I'm fixing to have my bolt carrier re-staked by G&R. The Magpul Pmags, which I'm loving muchly, were my first modification; the re-staking will be my second, although I agree with some folks here that the Bushmaster factory staking MIGHT be adequate for light use.
But, I LOVE the platform: the weight, even with a loaded 30-rd magazine, the target acquisition on the A2 sighting system, the handling/fit of the weapon to my shoulder, eye, and mind... Much better, so far, than my SKS or my dad's former .30-30 Winchester conventional lever action. I live in town, sort of, on the periphery to the country; but in July, I'm taking my Bushy to the rifle range in Snook. And 6 magazines. I'm seriously itching to fire this baby. It's been a LONG time since I've fired a rifle: but I think, this one is a GREAT platform. The more I handle it, the more I like it.
Y'all take care and be safe.
Mick
...........................uuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........awe, nevermind.
Mick_In_Texas
06-29-08, 20:49
Just the truth. A poster:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/M4A2Poster.jpg
There you go. Y'all take care and be safe and have a great week!
Mick
Jay Cunningham
06-29-08, 20:54
Blow-back operated?
:(
Mick_In_Texas
06-29-08, 21:17
Blow-back operated?
:(
Gas-operated, SEMI-automatic! Our M4s and AR15s are NOT "assault rifles"! They're just rifles. There's NO difference in my M4A2, my SKS, and my dad's Marlin .30-30 lever action. There we go. Y'all take care and be safe.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/M4A2Poster2.jpg
Mick
getafterit
06-29-08, 21:29
Mick, I have owned several Bushmaster rifles, both in the M4 configurations and the A2 20" versions.
I think, as stated before, if you are going to run the gun hard then there may or may not be upgrades that you want to do to it.
Look at it like this. If you need a work truck you buy a work truck. If you need a daily driver then you buy a daily driver. (if you need both then you buy a Duramax)
I have grown very fond of Bushmaster. I think they make a great product and their customer service has been top notch for me as well.
I have an M4 Bushy that I would put next to any other brand out there. It may or may not be as accurate but the way I see it if I can hit my mark give or take 3" at 300 yards then I am doing what this platform was designed for. If, as you know, one needs to be accurate then maybe a bolt gun would be the better choice.
I would say this. take your gun out and kick the tires, take it home and clean it. I can assure you that your gun will give you something that might come close to that when you first shot your 1911.
Have fun and lets us know how it works for ya.
Can you qualify this statement?
Not quite sure what you mean...?
:rolleyes:
It's one thing to identify potential issues and correct them. It's another thing entirely to disregard the benchmark to favor a known under-performer that requires fixing to bring it up to Colt standard.
I am quite interested to know why you prefer a BM over a Colt.
Oh it's nothing really about one brand over another just because of the brand, and it's nothing too particular...the Colts that I handled were very nice, and I could tell the build was decent. There was just something about the Bushy rifles that just fit me really well. It's a personal thing, not one for everyone. I know people don't like Bushmaster, but I'm not fighting for my life with the thing, and I don't run it hard at all. My two Bushy AR's perform flawlessly, though. Never a malfunction on either, and I'm looking forward to my third.
Failure2Stop
06-30-08, 06:18
...I'm not fighting for my life with the thing, and I don't run it hard at all.
Statement now understood.
The things many of us obsess over would be transparent for your use.
Hey, if it does what you want it to do, great.
Mick_In_Texas
06-30-08, 21:36
Statement now understood.
The things many of us obsess over would be transparent for your use.
Hey, if it does what you want it to do, great.
... I think my Bushmaster will be FINE. A friend at work, told me today--he's a recent Texas CHL Licensee, with a Glock, which I don't care for personally--that he's ALSO gotten an M4. It's not a Bushy, it's something else, two-part name, first part starts with an "S". He's young, but influenced somewhat by me, as he asked me about the Glocks, which, for lots of folks, handgun-wise, are quality weapons. I just prefer my beloved 1911 platforms in .45 ACP. He acquired the M4 rifle, after talking to me; and with a wife and three kids, it was a financial sacrifice, but he stated today that he liked my thinking on the M4 and the .223 Remington/5.56X45mm NATO round. It's his only rifle. My Texas Department of Criminal Justice buddy, a lieutenant Corrections Officer, is going for an AK 47 in 7.62X39mm NATO, as my SKS ChiCom. It's a common round among folks who aren't necessary friends of the U.S. But, urban, I'll take my M4 over my SKS. The two rounds have their particular utilities, as do my 9mm, .357 Mag/.38 Special, Super 38, and .45 ACP handguns.
After I return from my dad's from the Fourth of July U.S. holiday, I'm going to send my bolt carrier to Mr. Grant at G&R Tactical for a bit better restaking. I want to share the info I'm learning here with my work buddy, as I have with my other work buddy who's got the Bushy AR15. He's had NO probs with the AR15 Bushmaster. He's never stripped it for field cleaning, either. He's the one who let me take home his Colt's Mark IV Government, the first 1911 I ever handled, field-stripped, cleaned, and reassembled--WITHOUT a manual--that got me into the platform. My castle nut, I think I'll just get a wrench for, and blue Loctite it. Likely after firing in July, I'll look into the buffers, o-rings. I've got Pmags, and they're beautiful. Before I talk to the new M4 guy at work, I want to learn about the brand he bought... BUT...
... THANKS TO YOU FOLKS, I can field strip his and give him some pointers. I'm considered "the source" on 1911 platforms at work, and outside: DPS, Bryan PD, Brazos Co Sheriff's Dept. I'm learning, and I LOVE this rifle platform. Maybe in the future, another, in Colt's... but for now, I want to learn the weapon. It took me a LOOOOONG time to come 'round to the caliber and the platform. Now that I've actually GOT one, I LOVE it.
Y'all take care and be safe... and if you're in the U.S., have a wonderful and enjoyable and safe Fourth of July. YOU FOLKS are the salt of this earth. Period.
Mick
Stake the castle nut (or, more correctly, the receiver end plate). Locktiting it is rather pointless.
Jay Cunningham
07-01-08, 08:21
... I think my Bushmaster will be FINE. A friend at work, told me today--he's a recent Texas CHL Licensee, with a Glock, which I don't care for personally--that he's ALSO gotten an M4. It's not a Bushy, it's something else, two-part name, first part starts with an "S".
Probably a Sabre Defense rifle - very high quality.
Gas-operated, SEMI-automatic! Our M4s and AR15s are NOT "assault rifles"! They're just rifles. There's NO difference in my M4A2, my SKS, and my dad's Marlin .30-30 lever action. There we go. Y'all take care and be safe.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d54/Mick_In_Texas/M4A2Poster2.jpg
Mick
Mick, it should be "ASSAULT"... ;)
OK, is this post for real? There is WAY to much love. If I hear 1911 again....
Mick_In_Texas
07-02-08, 22:09
Stake the castle nut (or, more correctly, the receiver end plate). Locktiting it is rather pointless.
I'd like to stake it, per the good instructions here; but I am concerned about the effect on the blued finish. I think I'll try the blue Locktiting first. I'm not going to shoot a thousand rounds through it at a time.
I am going to have Grant re-stake the bolt carrier when I get back from a visit to my dad's for the Fourth of July. I've already added four Pmag 30-rounder mags to my Bushys. I've saved the great links you folks here have provided in re: o-rings and buffers. I'm going with my Bushmaster. I think I'll wait to take it to the rifle range (both out of town) until I get my bolt carrier back from G&R, though. While I think it's okay for very light use, better safe than sorry, to me. I'm also considering getting a back-up/extra per the suggestion.
My Texas Department of Criminal Justice buddy--they have access to fully-automatic M16s in the prison units--is opting for an AK47 before January in the U.S. Not an AR15 or M4, like my work buddies. That's okay, but for me, my SKS ChiCom performs THAT caliber function. It's a good solid arm in 7.62X39mm NATO. Frankly, NOW, I like my M4 and the .223/5.56X45mm better for certain situations...
Thanks for this, rob. I'll see y'all next week. Happy Fourth of July, if you're in the U.S.: it still MEANS something to me.
Mick
getafterit
07-02-08, 22:20
Hey Mick, thanks for keepin it real in here. Have a safe and fun fourth, enjoy the family and when you get back take your M-4 out for a ride. She wont let you down.
Mick_In_Texas
07-02-08, 22:31
Probably a Sabre Defense rifle - very high quality.
He got it from a very good firearms dealer here in Aggieland locally. He is a younger guy, trusts my opinions on firearms, as I'm way older and have been a Texas CHL holder for years. His handgun is a Glock, which I'm not particularly fond of, but he asked me about them before he bought it and then took his qualification to carry; I was objective, despite my love of the 1911 pistol platform and the .45ACP cal, and told him Glocks are good weapons. Just not my cup of coffee, doesn't mean they're not good.
Once he learned I'd acquired an M4, he had to have one. That's humbling, and honorable, to me... he has a wife and three daughters, and is law-abiding (obviously since he attained his Texas CHL)... Generally, this dealer doesn't sell junk. They're committed. He asked me about the platform and the caliber; told him straight up that initially I didn't like (I know early Viet Nam vets, who were stuck with the original Colt M16, NOT the -A1, -A2, -A3 versions) vs. the AK47 and SKS, but, I had changed my mind in re: the AR15, M16A4, M4, and the .223 Remington/5.56X45mm NATO caliber. My out-of-state dealer, and Army vet and Army sharpshooter with the 5.56 M16, convinced me of the viability of the platform and the round, and sold me my Bushmaster. YOU folks have taught me, and my buddy Roberty, the "new guy" with his M4, a LOT, and I'm still learning. Also my AR15 work buddy, Larry, a lot. I share y'all's info with these guys.
This is one of the, if not the MAIN, things, I LOVE about law-abiding firearms enthusiasts: we ARE bros and sisters. The MORE the MERRIER. We are not, and never have been, and never will be, the "problem". Period. That M4A2 sitting by my dresser, that Mossberg 12-guage in the closet, and that GP100 and 1911A1 on my bedstand are a threat to NO ONE who is law-abiding. Period. Never. Never will be.
Guns are specialized tools, nothing else. They do not fire on their own accord.
I am so happy to have joined the "little black rifle" club... and when I finally get a chance to fire my "little black rifle", I WILL give you folks a report!!! I am just so thankful I found this place, and am thankful for your continuing help. It is PRICELESS.
Y'all have a great Fourth of July holiday if you're in the U.S. Y'all are the salt of the earth.
Mick
Mick_In_Texas
09-01-08, 20:18
The bolt carrier group is off to G & R Tactical for a Grant re-staking job.
Got the four Magpul Pmags, olive green, 30-round, and they feed like clockwork. The two Bushmasters are also good: one 20-rd, one 30.
Am looking at a castle/stock nut wrench, to possibly attend to the non-staked castle nut on my Izzy carbine. Have found several; the Brownell's seems best:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=12782&title=AR-15/M16%20CARBINE%20STOCK%20WRENCH#specs
Found many, Midway, Cheaper Than Dirt, whatever... but want a good one.
Have some ammo. Anxious to put this Bushmaster back together, thread the sling on her, and take her to the rifle range. While I much prefer a .30 cal for all-around purposes... the .223 Rem/5.56X45mm NATO works for me, clear shot. Never shot one before! But have one now.
Sighting seems very quick, with the birdcage and front sight. Light weight, even with a fully-loaded 30-rd magazine, compared to my empty Chinese SKS. Easy to carry. Quick deployment. There you go.
Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick
RogerinTPA
09-01-08, 22:51
Hey Mick, I echo what others have said about upgrading your BM. I would for the sake of the upcoming elections, stock up on essentials as you can afford them: More Pmags (I own 50) Or the BCM(Bravo Company) Mags with the Enhanced followers. I think they are still $110.00 for 10. And a BCM Full Auto Bolt Carrier group for around $135.00 bucks or so AND AMMO.;)
I'm a new owner of a Bulgarian AK variant and I like the robustness of the weapon, as well as the 7.62 x 39 round. Being a former M1A1 competitor, I love that weapon, but for the money the SKS is good to go (I came close to buying one of those as well).
You will enjoy the straight forward factual answers on this forum, sprinkled with the occasional BS, but it will be entertaining and enlightening. Welcome aboard Mick.
Mick, you are very gracious. Thank-you.
I have to say at this point that you may be over thinking the issue, with all due respect. If the weapon continues to preform well for you, maybe re-stake the two keys if need be and move on. Unless you plan to attend a course or otherwise just run the gun very heavy, you should be fine. Based upon my personal experience with my M4 Izzy, at this time I would give it the benefit of the doubt unless forced to do otherwise. Agreed. I've owned 3 bushy's 2 were great 1 had a couple of issues that were easily rectified. All are still working fine. I ended up with a Armalite A4 carbine because I wanted more options as far as sighting goes.
Mick best of luck sorting out your Bushmaster. Just curious why didn't you go with the Colt? It would make a fitting friend for your soon to be Series 70 repro..:) I would sell the "bushy" and buy a 6920.;)
Blackwater
09-02-08, 17:16
Mick,
I have never staked the castle nut on any of my carbines.
Enjoy your new Bushmaster. Shoot it often and have fun!
;)
Agree 100%. Castle nut staking is overrated and unnecessary. If your concerned about it moving use loctite 242.
ok, the static is getting loud in this thread.
NEVER under any circumstances use any sort of loctite in the threads of the buffer tube. it is the fastest way to ensure that your tube will be completely ruined if it ever needs to be removed for any reason.
staking takes 5 minutes, is easily reversible, and is the CORRECT way to do it.
Mick_In_Texas
09-02-08, 21:57
Mick best of luck sorting out your Bushmaster. Just curious why didn't you go with the Colt? It would make a fitting friend for your soon to be Series 70 repro..:) I would sell the "bushy" and buy a 6920.;)
That Colt M4A2 is a dream... the 6920 M4 seems to be the ULTIMATE.
I do think Bushmaster is a good arm: a work buddy has an Armalite, 5.56/.223 that is dead-on out to 300 yards. I don't like having to modify a stock arm, out of the box, though: the staking issues really make me angry.
My preference is a .30 cal. for all-around use. I have a Chinese SKS, and my dad had one, built like a tank, whatever. But, being American and Texan, prefer an American round... I know Nam vets who had probs in the bush with the .223 M16 versus the AK47 7.62X39mm. Still, clear shot? Bullet's a bullet if you need it. Urban situation, .223 works fine. Even versus 7.62. Jungle? Frankly, would prefer a .30/06 or .308.
But, like my Bushy. Not totally happy with it 'cause of the bolt carrier and the castle nut, other than that, seems sound. We'll see.
Most of my 1911s handguns are Colts: but the O1991 doesn't shoot straigth, low and left. My O1911, Super 38 Government, and M1911 from 1918 DO... and hope my Model 70 Custom does as well.
If I win a lottery, I WANT the Colt's 6920. I've grown to accept the .223/5.56x45mm NATO round. I MUCH prefer the M4 as compared to the AR15 (conventional civilian rifle stock) and M16 (conventional military stock). I LOVE the look! A rifle is a rifle. Semi-automatic blowback action. NOT an "assault weapon", just a rifle... no different than my SKS or my dad's Winchester lever-action 30-30. Folks are bad, not TOOLS. Firearms are TOOLS.
There we go. Y'all take care and be safe.
Mick
Mick_In_Texas
09-02-08, 22:17
Hey Mick, I echo what others have said about upgrading your BM. I would for the sake of the upcoming elections, stock up on essentials as you can afford them: More Pmags (I own 50) Or the BCM(Bravo Company) Mags with the Enhanced followers. I think they are still $110.00 for 10. And a BCM Full Auto Bolt Carrier group for around $135.00 bucks or so AND AMMO.;)
I'm a new owner of a Bulgarian AK variant and I like the robustness of the weapon, as well as the 7.62 x 39 round. Being a former M1A1 competitor, I love that weapon, but for the money the SKS is good to go (I came close to buying one of those as well).
You will enjoy the straight forward factual answers on this forum, sprinkled with the occasional BS, but it will be entertaining and enlightening. Welcome aboard Mick.
AGREED, Sir!
Full-auto for a civilian I feel is over-rated: I watched an H-K demo tape many years ago. Human-size targets at about 30 yds, full auto clipped one in the shoulder in approx 6 seconds. Semi-auto, same time frame, center-punched all 5, cardio-thoractic cavity. Like Wyatt Earp said, we need to learn to shoot slow, real fast.
Bulgarian AKs I have read are the BEST! I like my SKS, not so much its country of origin, but it's built like a tank. Solid and .30 cal. Even has a scope, though I don't know why with the military sights still intact... 7.62X39mm is a good round. BUT... my Virginia dealer convinced me that the .223 is also good, for urban and general use. He was a sharpshooter in the Army... and our outstanding men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan use the M4 and the round effectively in full-automatic and 3-round blip mode. As a civilian, law-abiding, I think now it has its uses!
My used SKS was $199.00. It's in good shape, and has that scope, which I have no use for. My dad had that one, I wanted... he sold it without telling me, just like his Winchester .30-30 lever action... and that irritated me, although I love him! He took his last deer several years ago with that SKS he had, iron sights, about 100 yards... one shot, dropped dead. The round is good. It's the round of the free world's enemies. He called it a "6mm", but it was I learned a 7.62X39mm NATO.
I like my Bushmaster. I thank you for this! Yes, in America, we law-abiding citizens MUST prepare. We are a threat to NO ONE but criminals... and tyrants. "Assault rifle" is a media misnomer. Semi-automatic rifles, like our beloved M4s, AR15s, are just that: NO different than a Winchester .30-30, SKS, AK47, Remington 700. SEMI-automatics. Tools. We KNOW. Shame others don't.
Y'all take care and be safe. Love you folks here.
Mick
Mick_In_Texas
09-02-08, 22:33
ok, the static is getting loud in this thread.
NEVER under any circumstances use any sort of loctite in the threads of the buffer tube. it is the fastest way to ensure that your tube will be completely ruined if it ever needs to be removed for any reason.
staking takes 5 minutes, is easily reversible, and is the CORRECT way to do it.
...in the shooting field! My castle nut on my M4A2 is NOT staked. Not nearly as concerned about that, as my bolt carrier group. Upon firing, after many rounds, it may back off: I'm looking at both a wrench and LocTite for that part.
I don't want to get a punch or screwdriver after it. Finish issue. I feel on the stock LocTite would be okay; but, I gotta have a nut wrench to loosen and LocTite and tighten.
I know here that many don't like the Bushmasters, but it's like my Rock Island Armory 1911A1: it's a good arm, it's just not like my Colts's, or my Springers. What works, works. I've got my Bushmaster 30-rd magazine lying on my workstation, fully-loaded, and a fully-loaded Pmag 30-rd in that Bushy... although it won't fire without the bolt carrier! I have money issues... I'd love to have a Colt 6920 M4, but may never be able to afford it. The ONLY place I'd use LocTite on my M4 is the castle nut! NEVER on internals.
Thank you for this, ma'am. Other than the re-staking of my bolt carrier by G&R Tactical, NO mods to internals. The castle nut is external for my M4 collapsable stock. I just don't want it to be a prob on range or use firing. I do think it will loosen with a couple of hundred rounds... recoil. I know recoil. Not so much rifles as handguns. There you go.
You and yours take care and be safe and thank you! We NEED you women involved. I believe that!
Mick
DO NOT USE LOCTITE ON THE CASTLE NUT EVER..
I wish i had a nickel for every buffer tube ive seen destroyed because some bozo put MF'ing loctite on the castle nut....id have...um....
plenty of nickels.
and the AR is not blowback action. it is direct gas operated.
1859sharps
09-03-08, 00:43
Mick, as a bushmaster owner my self, let me try and help put the Bushmaster is “bad” in perspective. Having read your comment, I think this might help.
First there is no arguing a stock, as is leaving the factory for US civilian market Bushmaster is not up to snuff as a fighting gun. I have personally experienced some of the short comings associated with Bushmasters these days. They do exist, but it’s also not a given your particular gun will have all them. My 20in upper has issues, my 16inch upper shoots like a champ. Little side note, the 20in was bought a year a go, the 16inch upper was probably closer to 10 years ago. So I can defiantly tell a quality difference.
Since you have decided to keep your rifle, the only way to know your rifle’s weak areas is to shoot it, a lot. Having Grant fix your bolt is a good first step.
So, back to what I wanted to say. What is the best way to view Bushmasters place in the universe? I personally believe Bushmaster is strictly civilian sporting market guns. And they do build a decent commercial, for the civilian market sporting gun. Are there worse guns then Bushmaster that fall into this category, and there are some that are better.
Since you don’t seem interested in a fighting AR (correct me if I am wrong), there is nothing wrong with your choice to keep the Bushmaster. Use it, learn it, fix the little issues as you feel the need. And most importantly, enjoy it. Oh, and I think based on your comments you will enjoy the “old school” iron sights. I know I do.
When/if the day comes you want a fighting AR, I would spend sometime with the search feature of this forum and reading the stickies. As it sounds like you are discovering, lots of good advice here. And lucky for you, looks like you live in a state that will allow you to actually make use of it.
Short history on why I have a Bushmaster verses some of the recommendations on this site. It’s not that I ignored the advice, it is strictly a matter of timing. I made my buys close to 10years ago just before State law changed ending my chance of ever owning a real AR beyond a certain date. Things have changed a little, but we still can’t own full featured AR type rifles. I bought my 20in upper from Bushmaster only because in the past their reputation was much better, and I didn’t know about this site and the information it contains.
Mick_In_Texas
09-03-08, 21:19
ok, the static is getting loud in this thread.
NEVER under any circumstances use any sort of loctite in the threads of the buffer tube. it is the fastest way to ensure that your tube will be completely ruined if it ever needs to be removed for any reason.
staking takes 5 minutes, is easily reversible, and is the CORRECT way to do it.
So. If LocTite is not the answer to secure the castle nut--mine has NO staking at ALL--what is the answer? It seems "tight"... but have heard here, after a few rounds (well, not a few, but relatively speaking), the recoil will cause it to start backing out if not staked.
Or, I may be over-reacting. I DO think the G&R Tactical re-stake on the bolt carrier is warranted, as it is VERY minimal on my own. Currently not being in a situation where the weapon will be fired often and in a critical defensive situation, as my handguns may be (hopefully not, but... )... maybe I need to do nothing on the castle nut? I hate to try to "stake" it myself: I am concerned about the rifle's finish. Certainly NO one in ANY situation, wants it to back off and have the stock "fall off" the weapon! Maybe my "investment" here should just be a solid wrench to tighten it if needed? My case, as envisioned, may never need even that...
Respect y'all's opinions. Thank you for them so far! Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick
Mick_In_Texas
09-03-08, 21:40
Your response was extremely thoughtful and informative! Covered the bigger issues, so to speak...
Currently, my two rifles see limited usage: getting what you hinted at, I wanted the M4A2 because it is NOT an "assault rifle", it is a RIFLE; little different other than external appearance than my Chinese SKS.
I do like a reliable, functional arm, as we ALL do. I sincerely hope it will never be called upon for an individual defensive situation, or a general one. I am not a seer or fortuneteller, though... I leave that, at that!
I think the caliber is good for many purposes. Were I to be able to afford a "combat level" M4, I believe Colt would be my choice, as I have had very good experiences with their 1911 pistols, including an M1911 from 1918. I have recently acquired another Colt 1911 which is in transit. I think despite some problems with individual arms, Colt's is still a viable, functional brand...
I thank you for this very thoughtful and informative comment. It HELPS. Yes, I need to be able to shoot my Bushy: once I get the carrier bolt back... I am becoming more comfortable with the handling and sighting on it. For ME, the Bushmaster may be VERY serviceable and function... at this point in time, and the near future. I really don't know folks who have an AR15/M4 rifle; my work buddy has an AR15, Armalite, I believe, and some kind of "standard" rifle in the .223 Remington/5.56X45mm platform/caliber... he doesn't even know how to field strip it, and has never cleaned it. He is more an M1A Springer fan, I wish I could afford one of those, TOO, but I can't, as I'm a .30 cal fan... prefer something in .308 or .30/06 to the .223, but, .223 IS viable, especially in urban situations...
Yes, I DO believe having Grant at G&R re-stake the bolt carrier is essential: it was very minimal on my own M4. The castle nut, well, jury's still out on it, but no more than I anticipate firing my M4, it may be FINE. The rest of the weapon seems SOLID. I DO know the Bushmaster 20 and 30 round magazines, and the Magpul Pmag 30s, feed reliably until empty... just have NO rifle ranges locally, got to find a time to schedule and travel to one in the area, both my SKS (although it is built like a tank) and M4.
I'm thankful for this forum, and you folks... I absorb as much as I can from y'all! ALL taken to consideration. Ultimately, yes, it boils down to the individual... but, you folks who KNOW this platform, are invaluable in helping those of us who don't!!! While I'm thinking of selling both a Colt's and Springfield 1911 pistol... I think now the Bushmaster is a "permanent" resident of my collection!
You and yours take care and be safe, and hang in.
Mick
Blackwater
09-05-08, 07:45
So. If LocTite is not the answer to secure the castle nut--mine has NO staking at ALL--what is the answer? It seems "tight"... but have heard here, after a few rounds (well, not a few, but relatively speaking), the recoil will cause it to start backing out if not staked.
Mick
Mick, It probably won't shoot loose. None of mine ever have and I don't use Locktight or stake it. A few small drops of blue locktite won't ruin shit either. That's ubsurd. I've used it on stuff I really don't want to move like small allen screws for Surefire Rails. It's not perminent and they are easily removed.
Staking a castle nut is unneccessary.
Staking a castle nut is unneccessary.
You're wrong.
Mick, It probably won't shoot loose. None of mine ever have and I don't use Locktight or stake it. A few small drops of blue locktite won't ruin shit either. That's ubsurd. I've used it on stuff I really don't want to move like small allen screws for Surefire Rails. It's not perminent and they are easily removed.
Staking a castle nut is unneccessary.
DO NOT USE ANY SORT OF M*****F******* LOCTITE ON THE CASTLE NUT.
jesus, are people deaf?
Sir, you only believe that it is "ubsurd" (absurd) because you are a subject matter un-expert. You stated yourself that you have neither staked nor loctited a castle nut ever, making you the LEAST POSSIBLE qualified person to comment on the subject.
that is what we call static. bullshit opinions with zero experience behind them.
No need for the vulgarity....-gotm4
So. If LocTite is not the answer to secure the castle nut--mine has NO staking at ALL--what is the answer?
SNIP
Mick
uh, are we in a twilight zone? wtf do you mean "what is the answer?".......STAKE THE CASTLE NUT MICK.
It LITERALLY TAKES 5 MINUTES. Any monkey with a flat head screwdriver and a hammer can muddle through the process.
Lots of people want to sell you more then you need in every area of life. This is true here. I totally disagree with the assertion that the Bm can not be brought up in ~10’ to a world class fighting weapon. Just look at the complaints against the BM. Grant stated that the extractor problem, the staking issues (x2) and the bolt and barrel material only 4150 (which by the way is better then the M1, AK and many others that won many a battle). Ok, I will grant you that there are better weapons. But please think of this before you sale BM: I can buy a chair built for 500lb person that will last me 150 years or for a lot less I can buy a chair for a 250lb person that will last for 125 years. The point is that the easy to fix issues (i.e., extractor strength, & staking are simple) and the barrel material and bolt issue are red herrings. Look, the milspec barrels are built for 1:7 twist and sustained full auto fire. This excessive, continual heat with heavy bullets will wear out a milspec barrel before 55grain HP, SP(all you need @ the 5 to 7 feet that 95% of all firefights in the city occur) in the semi auto 1:9 (relaxed rifling) and short duration fight. Maybe people just want to sell you more then you need. Also, the military must fire FMJ; therefore, they want as heavy a bullet as possible (also they need some long range potential). However, with HP, SP, etc. a 55grain will tear a person up @ 5 to 7 feet. For instance, I put pins in leg bones. I can sell you a pin that will last 100 yrs cut from a single ingot of Russian Titanium. Or I can sale you a sealed ss pin that will last 100 years for $1500 less. Get the picture, its $ in someone’s pocket. The BM is all you need even if “the end of world and aliens attack.” You will not live long enough in city fighting to blast off 30K rounds. This is an easy mark for BM. Now I will get pounded by the “Professionals” about their superior weapons. I agree they have a superior weapon all I am saying is that does not matter. There 1:7 with 77g bullets will wear out their barrels about as fast as your BM with 1:9 using 55g. Ok, slam away gun gurus, but I am right and $ is the culprit.
IMHO
Lots of people want to sell you more then you need in every area of life. This is true here. I totally disagree with the assertion that the Bm can not be brought up in ~10’ to a world class fighting weapon. Just look at the complaints against the BM. Grant stated that the extractor problem, the staking issues (x2) and the bolt and barrel material only 4150 (which by the way is better then the M1, AK and many others that won many a battle). Ok, I will grant you that there are better weapons. But please think of this before you sale BM: I can buy a chair built for 500lb person that will last me 150 years or for a lot less I can buy a chair for a 250lb person that will last for 125 years. The point is that the easy to fix issues (i.e., extractor strength, & staking are simple) and the barrel material and bolt issue are red herrings. Look, the milspec barrels are built for 1:7 twist and sustained full auto fire. This excessive, continual heat with heavy bullets will wear out a milspec barrel before 55grain HP, SP(all you need @ the 5 to 7 feet that 95% of all firefights in the city occur) in the semi auto 1:9 (relaxed rifling) and short duration fight. Maybe people just want to sell you more then you need. Also, the military must fire FMJ; therefore, they want as heavy a bullet as possible (also they need some long range potential). However, with HP, SP, etc. a 55grain will tear a person up @ 5 to 7 feet. For instance, I put pins in leg bones. I can sell you a pin that will last 100 yrs cut from a single ingot of Russian Titanium. Or I can sale you a sealed ss pin that will last 100 years for $1500 less. Get the picture, its $ in someone’s pocket. The BM is all you need even if “the end of world and aliens attack.” You will not live long enough in city fighting to blast off 30K rounds. This is an easy mark for BM. Now I will get pounded by the “Professionals” about their superior weapons. I agree they have a superior weapon all I am saying is that does not matter. There 1:7 with 77g bullets will wear out their barrels about as fast as your BM with 1:9 using 55g. Ok, slam away gun gurus, but I am right and $ is the culprit.
IMHO
It would appear that in your haste to get offended you missed the point entirely.
If someone has not yet made their purchase, the BM makes little to no sense as there are other options available for the same price with better specs or a cheaper price with the same specs.
If someone has already purchased a BM, the consensus already has been to stake the parts that need it, or better yet just buy a better quality BCG and stake the receiver endplate, and drive on with what you have.
I am not offended; I am just defending what I believe is the truth. Every body wants to be important, but a forum is to get at truth not a ego trip.
everyone here has YOUR best interest in mind....and you think that WE like to feel important?
f****** weak.
Again with the vulgarity.-gotm4
I am not offended; I am just defending what I believe is the truth. Every body wants to be important, but a forum is to get at truth not a ego trip.
Believe to be the truth based on what? Your desire that it be so?
Your entire post can be summed up as "I overpayed for not as good and want to tell you to do the same thing".
When you get around to posting that "truth" business send me an email.
(I knew there was a reason I hadn't posted in this thread.....
thread tools --> unsubscribe from this thread
whew. Feel much better)
Mick,
I have a Bushmaster, Colt 6920, Noveske N4 and a BCM/LMT . Now the Bushy was my first and had no staking whatsoever. Now it has performed well, but only at the range. I would not trust it at a carbine class. I bought the other rifles so I could start training hard and use them hard. I am not scared of scratches and actually welcome them. My high end rifles get pushed hard and I can't wait to push them HARDER.
That said, I staked my BCM and castle nut on my bushy really easily. I used a punch to do it all, now the staking on the BCM is not pretty but it is NOT coming apart and the staking on the castle nut turned out great with the same technique and it was even easier and it looks good too.
My point is, stake the castle nut yourself and don't look back. You are a man with a war fighter mentality who would not hesitate to pick up your weapons to fight for freedom or the welfare of others, now put that mentality to your bushy and loose the concern for the finish. We aren't talking about a 100 year old Parker here, this is a battle carbine.
Believe to be the truth based on what? Your desire that it be so?
Your entire post can be summed up as "I overpayed for not as good and want to tell you to do the same thing".
When you get around to posting that "truth" business send me an email.
(I knew there was a reason I hadn't posted in this thread.....
thread tools --> unsubscribe from this thread
whew. Feel much better)
good idea.
decodeddiesel
09-05-08, 13:36
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+1 :rolleyes:
Blackwater
09-05-08, 14:42
DO NOT USE ANY SORT OF M*****F****** LOCTITE ON THE CASTLE NUT.
jesus, are people deaf?
Sir, you only believe that it is "ubsurd" (absurd) because you are a subject matter un-expert. You stated yourself that you have neither staked nor loctited a castle nut ever, making you the LEAST POSSIBLE qualified person to comment on the subject.
that is what we call static. bullshit opinions with zero experience behind them.
Yo *******, maybe if you understood there are different types of loctite, you'd get it. I've never seen castle nut that has had some "man strength" applied to it, come undone. Maybe that's what you're missing.
I merely suggesed a few drops if indeed Mick is worried about it.
I know why Hillary is your avatar though. :rolleyes:
No name calling needed, we aren't children here.-gotm4
Staking a castle nut is unneccessary.
This is incorrect.
C4
Lots of people want to sell you more then you need in every area of life. This is true here. I totally disagree with the assertion that the Bm can not be brought up in ~10’ to a world class fighting weapon. Just look at the complaints against the BM. Grant stated that the extractor problem, the staking issues (x2) and the bolt and barrel material only 4150 (which by the way is better then the M1, AK and many others that won many a battle). Ok, I will grant you that there are better weapons. But please think of this before you sale BM: I can buy a chair built for 500lb person that will last me 150 years or for a lot less I can buy a chair for a 250lb person that will last for 125 years. The point is that the easy to fix issues (i.e., extractor strength, & staking are simple) and the barrel material and bolt issue are red herrings. Look, the milspec barrels are built for 1:7 twist and sustained full auto fire. This excessive, continual heat with heavy bullets will wear out a milspec barrel before 55grain HP, SP(all you need @ the 5 to 7 feet that 95% of all firefights in the city occur) in the semi auto 1:9 (relaxed rifling) and short duration fight. Maybe people just want to sell you more then you need. Also, the military must fire FMJ; therefore, they want as heavy a bullet as possible (also they need some long range potential). However, with HP, SP, etc. a 55grain will tear a person up @ 5 to 7 feet. For instance, I put pins in leg bones. I can sell you a pin that will last 100 yrs cut from a single ingot of Russian Titanium. Or I can sale you a sealed ss pin that will last 100 years for $1500 less. Get the picture, its $ in someone’s pocket. The BM is all you need even if “the end of world and aliens attack.” You will not live long enough in city fighting to blast off 30K rounds. This is an easy mark for BM. Now I will get pounded by the “Professionals” about their superior weapons. I agree they have a superior weapon all I am saying is that does not matter. There 1:7 with 77g bullets will wear out their barrels about as fast as your BM with 1:9 using 55g. Ok, slam away gun gurus, but I am right and $ is the culprit.
IMHO
Just as an FYI, "as good as" never really flies around here. For the same more (or close to it), why not just get "GOOD!"
C4
Yo *******, maybe if you understood there are different types of loctite, you'd get it. I've never seen castle nut that has had some "man strength" applied to it, come undone. Maybe that's what you're missing.
I merely suggesed a few drops if indeed Mick is worried about it.
I know why Hillary is your avatar though. :rolleyes:
The issue with torque and loctite (any color) creates galling. Once this happens it is VERY hard to get the castle nut off. It is MUCH easier to just stake the castle nut.
C4
edited Blackwaters comments-gotm4
Blackwater
09-05-08, 15:06
This is incorrect.
C4
And you know this from? Being a dealer?
No where in the Bushmaster Armorer's Manual or Army Armorers Manual (TM 220) does it mention staking the castle nut upon replacement.
Castle nut staking is done at the factory and not required when servicing a weapon.
Yo *******, maybe if you understood there are different types of loctite, you'd get it. I've never seen castle nut that has had some "man strength" applied to it, come undone. Maybe that's what you're missing.
I merely suggesed a few drops if indeed Mick is worried about it.
I know why Hillary is your avatar though. :rolleyes:
coarse threads, aggressive texture, and large diameter means that even a few drops of ANY color loctite leads to thread galling, and gouging by the receiver end plate. Using "MAN STRENGTH" to either assemble or disassemble an AR is what leads to ruined shit.
i repeat, subject matter UN EXPERT.
edited Blackwaters comments.-gotm4
And you know this from? Being a dealer?
No where in the Bushmaster Armorer's Manual or Army Armorers Manual (TM 220) does it mention staking the castle nut upon replacement.
Castle nut staking is done at the factory and not required when servicing a weapon.
I know this because it is common sense and the fact that I do this for a living.
The loctite idea is not a new one. A lot of companies do it to save a buck (as it is faster to use loctite than to stake the castle nut). I am also the guy that gets these lowers in the shop and have to try and remove the castle and end up using a blow torch to get them off. :rolleyes:
Also (just as an FYI to you), all the armorers schools I have been through (Colt, S&W, etc) teach you to stake the castle nut. ;)
C4
Blackwater
09-05-08, 15:15
I know this because it is common sense and the fact that I do this for a living.
The loctite idea is not a new one. A lot of companies do it to save a buck (as it is faster to use loctite than to stake the castle nut). I am also the guy that gets these lowers in the shop and have to try and remove the castle and end up using a blow torch to get them off. :rolleyes:
Also (just as an FYI to you), all the armorers schools I have been through (Colt, S&W, etc) teach you to stake the castle nut. ;)
C4
I can tell you the Armorers school I've been to, don't. Nor is it in the manuals I just referred to. It's totally unncessary and I've never seen one come undone in the field, that has been tightented in the slightest. If Mick's does come undone, I'll buy his rifle from him.
I can tell you the Armorers school I've been to, don't. Nor is it in the manuals I just referred to. It's totally unncessary and I've never seen one come undone in the field, that has been tightented in the slightest. If Mick's does come undone, I'll buy his rifle from him.
We see them come loose all the time. If the castle nut backs off and your RE spins (just slightly), your buffer retainer ejects into your weapons and then all kinds of fun things happen. This is why it is common sense to take the extra minute to stake the castle nut.
I would suggest you do some searching on the net as castle nuts coming loose does happen.
C4
I can tell you the Armorers school I've been to, don't. Nor is it in the manuals I just referred to. It's totally unncessary and I've never seen one come undone in the field, that has been tightented in the slightest. If Mick's does come undone, I'll buy his rifle from him.
This is ridiculous. How can one argue with this non-sense.
Mick, listen to the guys like rob_s, Grant and ARin, they know and would NOT lead you astray. This staking thing is really simple, just do it.
Take care my friend.
Blackwater, I kind of thought you were full of shit about the Military manuals not calling for castle nut staking so I dug it up: http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf Go to page 200 and see "6J" for proof.
The other interesting thing you will read on page 200 is item "6A." It advises you to lube the threads. Now why would they tell you to lube the threads???? Oh wait, I know!! It is because using a steel castle nut on an Alum. receiver extension creates galling!!! :eek:
BW, I hope that you are not a REAL armorer for any place of importance and if you are, you should be most likely be getting to fixing all the guns that are FUBARD. ;)
C4
I can tell you the Armorers school I've been to, don't. Nor is it in the manuals I just referred to. It's totally unncessary and I've never seen one come undone in the field, that has been tightented in the slightest. If Mick's does come undone, I'll buy his rifle from him.
you have never seen one come undone in the "field" because you are probably never in the "field" and the vast majority of "fielded" carbines are built and assembled to military specifications by companies like COLT and LMT....you know, companies that stake the castle nut.
you have never seen one come undone in the "field" because you are probably never in the "field" and the vast majority of "fielded" carbines are built and assembled to military specifications by companies like COLT and LMT....you know, companies that stake the castle nut.
Agreed!
Believe to be the truth based on what? Your desire that it be so?
Your entire post can be summed up as "I overpayed for not as good and want to tell you to do the same thing".
When you get around to posting that "truth" business send me an email.
(I knew there was a reason I hadn't posted in this thread.....
thread tools --> unsubscribe from this thread
whew. Feel much better)
Yeh, you are probably right, I spent alot of $ on a f....ing weapon that I thought was battle ready, I reviewed every site on the web, but my jackass luck i found this site after the purchase. Yeh, i am pissed and was trying to pull a f..ing rabbit out of a hat. I should not of taken out on you.
ARin,
I hope you meant to quote from another member as I am in complete agreement with you.
my bad. :eek: fixed ;)
So. If LocTite is not the answer to secure the castle nut--mine has NO staking at ALL--what is the answer? It seems "tight"... but have heard here, after a few rounds (well, not a few, but relatively speaking), the recoil will cause it to start backing out if not staked.
......Oh my God Mick, do you read?! Someone else said it; is this a Twilight Zone?! STAKE IT! . A PUNCH OR A "1" NUMBER STAMP WORKS EXCELENT! (makes beautiful key stakeing too....those nice even lines going across the bolts)
I am almost on the verge of calling out BS here in the form of a troll. Gezz-o-christ.
Also (just as an FYI to you), all the armorers schools I have been through (Colt, S&W, etc) teach you to stake the castle nut. ;)
C4
Yep, been going to Colt Armorer schools for 15 years now, and just got an update by Elmore this past July, stake it...........:cool:
Mick_In_Texas
09-06-08, 20:19
I really appreciate ALL the comments!
YES: I DO read things, here, elsewhere. I DO understand English. Again, appreciate all this discussion--seems to have generated a lot of interest, this issue!
Bottom line: I think I need to "stake" the castle nut on my Bushmaster prior to any serious firing. Having long ago been a mechanic, I think the recoil from firing can back it off... if something isn't done with/to it.
It's still missing the bolt carrier group as Grant at G&R Tactical has it for STAKING.
I'm disabled, and thus haven't been in the military... so I don't know what a combat-ready M4A2 looks like. The castle nut issue just seems to make sense, something needs to secure it, or be prepared to carry a wrench everywhere you may find yourself using the weapon defensively or on the range. LocTite is a viable product for appropriate applications; the castle nut on an M4 may not be the best application. But, yes, sparingly always, wherever!
I thank you folks for all this input. I appreciate your advice--and ALL of it is considered seriously!--to a newbie with the M4/AR15/M16 platform!!! Even when y'all disagree! It's ALL good information... because ultimately, the decision to do or not do a thing to a firearm, rests with the individual owner. THIS owner, however, just wants to do the right thing... and this owner, has never been ashamed to admit he doesn't know everything (while at work, many co-employees think I DO... I DON'T)...
This is a great place. Yes, I wish I'd found it BEFORE I bought my (first) "little black rifle"... but, still, am GLAD to have found it regardless.
Y'all all take care and be safe and hope all are having a great weekend! I'll definitely keep all y'all posted here on the progress with my Bushmaster...
Mick
I'm disabled, and thus haven't been in the military... so I don't know what a combat-ready M4A2 looks like.
Mick
......
That's uncalled for - gotm4
......
whoa whoa...be nice.
Mick seems like a good guy. he came here humbly looking for information...it took a minute or so to sink in....but i think we got him on the right track.
No need to get all rude. thats my job. :p
actually, usually that is Marks job.:D
edited ksa464s comments.-gotm4
Blackwater
09-07-08, 07:47
Blackwater, I kind of thought you were full of shit about the Military manuals not calling for castle nut staking so I dug it up: http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf Go to page 200 and see "6J" for proof.
The other interesting thing you will read on page 200 is item "6A." It advises you to lube the threads. Now why would they tell you to lube the threads???? Oh wait, I know!! It is because using a steel castle nut on an Alum. receiver extension creates galling!!! :eek:
BW, I hope that you are not a REAL armorer for any place of importance and if you are, you should be most likely be getting to fixing all the guns that are FUBARD. ;)
C4
Look again. Staking the receiver end plate is what the manual states, not the locking nut (castle nut). I'll say it again for the un-experts... Staking the castle nut is unnecessary. Also Moly grease is used between the tube and receiver, 2 like materials. It not used on the locking nut which is typically made of steel.
I highly doubt anyone here uses grease too. I've don't think I've even seen it as they come from the factory.
FYI - Galling happens even if grease is used, and the grease only lessens the effect does not prevent it. It does not occur when joining different metals. Who's full of shit?
Also make note of the need to torque (40 in lbs - not much, but probably more moxie than AR has) as specified in the manual, which was exactly my point. I've never seen torsional/vibration forces applied to such an extent on the receiver or especially on the M4-type collapsible stock to cause the castle nut to come loose.
This is what happens when the internet commandos, who spend more time behind a keyboard, believe they are the experts.
Look again. Staking the receiver end plate is what the manual states, not the locking nut (castle nut).
Uh...what exactly do you think the receiver end plate is being staked into?
"6J. Stake the receiver end plate (5.6) in 2 places across from the notches in the locking nut (5.5)."
Look again. Staking the receiver end plate is what the manual states, not the locking nut (castle nut).
Oh WOW! What do you think a locking nut is? That is .Mil term for the CASTLE NUT! Yikes, man, you should really stop reaching here!
Quote from the manual:
"Stake the receiver end plate (5.6) in 2 places across from the notches in the locking nut."
I'll say it again for the un-experts... Staking the castle nut is unnecessary. Also Moly grease is used between the tube and receiver, 2 like materials. It not used on the locking nut which is typically made of steel.
I highly doubt anyone here uses grease too. I've don't think I've even seen it as they come from the factory.
Uhm, I think you are actually the "un-expert" here. You have been proven wrong. When you put grease on the threads of the RE, do think it is possible that some of it gets onto the castle nut?? Isn't that where the torque is? Oh wait, yes it is. ;)
FYI - Galling happens even if grease is used, and the grease only lessens the effect does not prevent it. It does not occur when joining different metals. Who's full of shit?
Galling does happen all the time and this is why the manuals says to apply grease to the threads so that the STEEL castle nut can be tightened against the ALUM. receiver extension.
Adding loctite makes it 1,000 times worse! This is why it is a no no. I think we know which one of us of is full of it.
Also make note of the need to torque (40 in lbs - not much, but probably more moxie than AR has) as specified in the manual, which was exactly my point. I've never seen torsional/vibration forces applied to such an extent on the receiver or especially on the M4-type collapsible stock to cause the castle nut to come loose.
40 inch lbs is light and is why it so important to stack the receiver plate to the locking nut (castle nut). We have seen castle nuts back off all the time with much great force than 40 in lbs.
This is what happens when the internet commandos, who spend more time behind a keyboard, believe they are the experts.
No internet commando here. We build AR's for a living. So you are not talking to some teenager that just bout an airsoft gun. ;) If anything, I am concerned that you are an actual armorer for someone (or group) and are responsible for keeping their weapons running.
C4
Uh...what exactly do you think the receiver end plate is being staked into?
"6J. Stake the receiver end plate (5.6) in 2 places across from the notches in the locking nut (5.5)."
I am thinking BW's reading comprehension skills are about zero.
C4
Blackwater,
I want to make it clear that I am not dog-piling or picking on you.
1. What experience do you have as an armorer and what specific training have you attended concerning the use maintenance and repair of the M16 FOW?
2. Why would you make a blanket statement that castle nut staking is overrated and unnecessary when it is documented fact that they can and will come loose?
3. Why would you tell someone to use Loc-Tite on the threads when that compounds the problem in many cases? I have carbines here in country where Loc-Tite or a similar substance was applied and when it was necessary to reomve the lower receiver extension it was often damaged due to the Loc-Tite and then galling of the steel castle nut and aluminum lower receiver extension.
4. Exactly what field experience do you have that qualifies you to make such statements?
5. I don't know what manual you are referring to (TM 220) but the TM for the M16A2/A4, M4, etc.. is TM 9-1005-319-23&P. If you read through it with all of your expertise you will see where it specifically calls for application of molybdenum grease to threads of lower receiver extension it is common knowledge and practice among those in the know to esnure that there is grease on the area where the castle nut ( aka locking nut) is secured. It also makes specific mention of staking the end plate into the notches on the castle nut.
6. We don't need any AR15 melodramatics here, nor do we need any insulting of those who are long time members in good standing. Especially since everything that you said has been refuted.
7. I am not some guy who sits behind a desk or runs a business. I am an armorer for one of the top 3 PMC's in Iraq who has been working over here since 2005 and before that in the MIL. I have plenty of qualifications and experience.
Agree 100%. Castle nut staking is overrated and unnecessary. If your concerned about it moving use loctite 242.
Send this guy to wherever hurricane Ike winds up hitting.
You could cool an entire city that is without power just from the draft coming off of his backpeddling.
Has anyone here really ever NOT seen a castle nut back off of a rifle, only to discover that the receiver endplate was not properly staked to the castlenut to prevent same?
BW, to be clear, and assuming you're just not understanding the issue...
Nobody is advocating actually putting a stake on the castle nut. What everyone means by "stake the castle nut" is actually "stake the receiver endplate to the castle nut."
This is what we're talking about
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/staking/Coltstockstaking.jpg
getafterit
09-07-08, 13:00
Buy a UBR...No staking required!!!! Thats a statement that I can back up.:D
Please share with us where o where we can acquire the mythical Magpul UBR unicorn. I have been trying to buy one for 2 months and nothing to be had. I even called Magpul direct.
And buying a UBR is irrelevant to the point of the whole post here.
Buy a UBR...No staking required!!!! Thats a statement that I can back up.:D
in the spirit of due diligence and EVIDENCE BASED logic....i give you specimen #1, in which the owner thought a few drops of blue loctite would be better.
he came in to order a new buffer tube, to replace the one he ruined.
pay special attention to the blue loctite residue on the threads. and the gouge that the endplate makes when the castle nut and the receiver tube are BONDED TOGETHER WITH BLUE GLUE THAT HAS NO BUSINESS BEING THERE.
the endplate and castlenut are ENGINEERED to be locked in position RELATIVE TO EACHOTHER with staking....Having the tube locked to the castlenut is NOT CORRECT.
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=62
http://i36.tinypic.com/ic5mqp.jpg
CarlosDJackal
09-07-08, 14:20
I would like to point out that just because the military prints something in their manuals, it doesn't mean that it is the best course-of-action for everyone else. If I remember it correctly, this same manual (or its predecesor) once stated that the M-16 is a self-cleaning rifle and does not require cleaning by the operator. IMHO, it's idiotic not to consider something so simple just because some TM (which is probably outdated) says so. JM2CW.
getafterit
09-07-08, 14:24
Please share with us where o where we can acquire the mythical Magpul UBR unicorn. I have been trying to buy one for 2 months and nothing to be had. I even called Magpul direct.
And buying a UBR is irrelevant to the point of the whole post here.
Most of the arguing is "irrelevant to the OP post. I just wanted to bring some levity to the arguing here.
And for the mythical UBR...try PKfirearms. They had a bunch when I ordered mine. He has an in with Magpul and gets stuff long before anyone else.
And as for the staking or not staking of the castle nut. If it works for you...do it. If others dont, does not mean that they are wrong, just maybe ignorant.
To each his own.
closer picture of aluminum SMEARED FLAT by "MAN STRENGTH" or "MOXY"...or whatever other word that has no business around gunsmithing.
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=63
http://i37.tinypic.com/2cgda41.jpg
getafterit
09-07-08, 20:42
Correction on the location of the UBR. I purchased my UBR from Champion firearms in Texas.
Robb Jensen
09-07-08, 20:53
I would like to point out that just because the military prints something in their manuals, it doesn't mean that it is the best course-of-action for everyone else. If I remember it correctly, this same manual (or its predecesor) once stated that the M-16 is a self-cleaning rifle and does not require cleaning by the operator. IMHO, it's idiotic not to consider something so simple just because some TM (which is probably outdated) says so. JM2CW.
You're talking ancient history about self cleaning.
Proper staking on the carrier key and castle nut has been in the TM since at least 1983 and since it's still there for the M16A2/A4 and M4/M4A1 I would think it's still the 'best way'.....Are there other ways? Sure you could MIG/TIG weld the carrier key to the carrier key and you could MIG/TIG weld the castle nut to the receiver end plate. Would it work? Yes, but would it be ideal and easily reversible by an armorer out in the field? Not very likely. You would have to throw away the carrier if it had problems, as you would the lower.......just my dos centavos! :D
Mick_In_Texas
09-07-08, 21:46
Correction on the location of the UBR. I purchased my UBR from Champion firearms in Texas.
Noted the UBR. Champion Firearms in the Brazos Valley, good folks... where I get my Texas CHLs. And go to the pistol/handgun range.
I think my castle nut needs to be staked, no LocTite. I'll be looking into this when I get my bolt carrier group back from Grant, it looks like it will be delivered to G&R tomorrow. I like the platform. Yes, maybe other brands are better; other brands are worse. I've got a Colt's 1911 plat that doesn't shoot straight, it's the only handgun I've ever had that doesn't; but I also bought another one recently.
I really appreciate MOST of y'all's interest and comments. MOST of it helps. I'm trying to learn here... Gunsmoke, I need to go to... when I get my Bushy back together after the carrier bolt from Grant comes back. There are good folks here, and I really appreciate your interest and your sharing.
Y'all take care and be safe, and have a good start on the week. Looks like my week is screwed, Ike tracking now toward Texas. Oh, well. I love the M4 platform, and want to learn it. Thank most of y'all.
Mick
ARin,
No pics are showing up.
closer picture of aluminum SMEARED FLAT by "MAN STRENGTH" or "MOXY"...or whatever other word that has no business around gunsmithing.
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=63
Following that same line of reasoning there would be no need to get enhanced extractor springs/ inserts, stake your bolt carrier key, or use the proper buffer. And don't forget that some of these things aren't put in there by the MIL. They are passed along to them by the civilian sector (i.e.- Colt) at which time they have to be reviewed prior to being incorporated into the TM by way of a "change".
The analogy of the self-cleaning rifle is definitely not a good one to use, especially since that was corrected about 36 years ago.
I would like to point out that just because the military prints something in their manuals, it doesn't mean that it is the best course-of-action for everyone else. If I remember it correctly, this same manual (or its predecesor) once stated that the M-16 is a self-cleaning rifle and does not require cleaning by the operator. IMHO, it's idiotic not to consider something so simple just because some TM (which is probably outdated) says so. JM2CW.
m24shooter
09-08-08, 12:38
Also, was that actually written into the manuals or was it word of mouth at a time when as I understand it no or little logistical support was provided for the platform, including cleaning kits or operator manuals?
Following that same line of reasoning there would be no need to get enhanced extractor springs/ inserts, stake your bolt carrier key, or use the proper buffer. And don't forget that some of these things aren't put in there by the MIL. They are passed along to them by the civilian sector (i.e.- Colt) at which time they have to be reviewed prior to being incorporated into the TM by way of a "change".
The analogy of the self-cleaning rifle is definitely not a good one to use, especially since that was corrected about 36 years ago.
ARin,
No pics are showing up.
sorry:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2cgda41.jpg
I wish I could tell you for sure. Since I am not that old, I don't know. Bottom line is that BW is wrong about what he stated and it is backed up in writing, not to mention that it is a fact that castle nuts come loose when not properly staked.
Also, was that actually written into the manuals or was it word of mouth at a time when as I understand it no or little logistical support was provided for the platform, including cleaning kits or operator manuals?
original pic
in the spirit of due diligence and EVIDENCE BASED logic....i give you specimen #1, in which the owner thought a few drops of blue loctite would be better.
he came in to order a new buffer tube, to replace the one he ruined.
pay special attention to the blue loctite residue on the threads. and the gouge that the endplate makes when the castle nut and the receiver tube are BONDED TOGETHER WITH BLUE GLUE THAT HAS NO BUSINESS BEING THERE.
the endplate and castlenut are ENGINEERED to be locked in position RELATIVE TO EACHOTHER with staking....Having the tube locked to the castlenut is NOT CORRECT.
http://i36.tinypic.com/ic5mqp.jpg
I know exactly what caused that as I have seen it here. That gouge is from the tab on the end plate. Because the castle nut was Loc-Tited when you tried to remove it, the end plate and nut both moved together. Would that be correct?
closer picture of aluminum SMEARED FLAT by "MAN STRENGTH" or "MOXY"...or whatever other word that has no business around gunsmithing.
http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=14&pictureid=63
http://i37.tinypic.com/2cgda41.jpg
close, the endplate stays stationary...because it indexes to the rear of the lower reciever.
the castle nut and the tube are essentially BONDED into one piece by loctite...turning the castle nut, also turns the tube......turning the tube inside of a stationary plate.....a plate with a tab to resist rotation. that tab can only resist rotation before "man strength" overcomes it, and the tab gouges the threads, as the tube and castle nut rotate as one unit.
Roger. Come to think of it I had both experiences. This was due to the fact that the castle nut was tightened enough. Someone just put red Loc-tite on the threads and snugged it. Somehow there must have been some play. All I know is that in a few cases I had to cut the castle nut off in order to remove the LRE w/o damaging it.
close, the endplate stays stationary...because it indexes to the rear of the lower reciever.
the castle nut and the tube are essentially BONDED into one piece by loctite...turning the castle nut, also turns the tube......turning the tube inside of a stationary plate.....a plate with a tab to resist rotation. that tab can only resist rotation before "man strength" overcomes it, and the tab gouges the threads, as the tube and castle nut rotate as one unit.
m24shooter
09-08-08, 14:54
Copy that. I'm not old enough either.
I'm also tracking you re:BW. As a side job I do AR work for a local store. I've had to correct an extension that was LocTite bonded. And I've seen non-staked units come loose.
The -23 may not be Holy Writ but it is about as close as it gets. The locations that it says to stake are there for a reason and doing so will prevent a lot of problems from ever showing up.
I wish I could tell you for sure. Since I am not that old, I don't know. Bottom line is that BW is wrong about what he stated and it is backed up in writing, not to mention that it is a fact that castle nuts come loose when not properly staked.
Mick_In_Texas
09-10-08, 20:21
For several years, I was a "shop hand", i.e., mechanic, and I DO know a little about "shortcuts" mechanically like LocTite. Or those weird "helicoils" to "repair" stripped female threads in castings and blocks.
First job: get my bolt carrier back from Grant. I know he does a great job staking/re-staking the bolt carriers from different makers that don't do it "up to snuff".
Second job: my FFL here in Texas is also a gunsmith. After our hurricane activation for Ike (we'll see, it's getting real old), I've got to pick up a Colt's Model 70 Reproduction, and I want to discuss having HIM stake my castle nut.
I've read ALL the replies here, and for ME, that is my decision: have the thing staked, but not do it myself (yes, I could... but he's a good guy and a pro). I won't criticize either camp. I do believe that the majority feel an M4 type stock--and a friend at work is converting a Chinese SKS to a Tapco M4 type stock, and he's been asking me questions I don't answer unless I actually know the answer--I prefer to leave my Chinese SKS like it is for now--needs the staking. It stands to reason, to me. I've seen too many "things" "back off/out" as a result of vibration, recoil, whatever. I have also, as I recall, seen probs in the LONG run with LocTite--although it has its uses that are good--as a "shortcut" solution to a "bigger" problem.
Thank all you good folks for sharing your opinions and thoughts: it is much appreciated. That's why I searched out this forum. At least I admit when I don't know something... there you go.
Y'all take care. If you're near the Texas coast, DO heed the warnings: Ike is a bad one. I've lived with it for a week, and it's getting worse.
Mick
Mick,
Again, I applaude you for doing the right thing EVEN if it took a while for the "staking the castle nut thing" to set in and I am sure it made good reading regardless. What I am really proud of is the time you take with things. There is no rushing with you or, "got to have it now" mentality that seems to dominate these days. I like your well thought out moves and deep thinking, minus the above castle nut vs. lock-tite drama. You seem to be an honorable man, one I would not mind sitting down with some fine whiskey and talking whatever comes our way.
You are doing the right thing, keep it up.
Mick_In_Texas
09-11-08, 20:47
Mick,
Again, I applaude you for doing the right thing EVEN if it took a while for the "staking the castle nut thing" to set in and I am sure it made good reading regardless. What I am really proud of is the time you take with things. There is no rushing with you or, "got to have it now" mentality that seems to dominate these days. I like your well thought out moves and deep thinking, minus the above castle nut vs. lock-tite drama. You seem to be an honorable man, one I would not mind sitting down with some fine whiskey and talking whatever comes our way.
You are doing the right thing, keep it up.
I try. Thank you. This was appreciated. I may be absent for a while, as I work for a Texas state agency which is a primary responder to hurricanes, and Ike is a big and bad one. I hate hurricane season, but, we're there for the folks in Texas and western Louisiana... was there in Rita, and Gustav.
The conversation over a fine whiskey (although one of my challenges is diabetes, I could take a taste now and then) and with good folks, is appealling... I like that. You and yours take care and be safe. Good conversation is a blessing...
Mick
Mick_In_Texas
09-16-08, 20:22
Okay, does Bushmaster torque them properly, even without the staking?
Reason I ask: I've got a Colt's .45 1911 to pick up at my FFL. Because we're still "doing" Ike, prob be Saturday before I can go there, he's almost in College Station and it's a stretch for me to do in an hour for lunch. As y'all know, I haven't fired my Bushmaster M4A2--still waiting on carrier bolt group from Grant. I'd like to take it my FFL/gunsmith, leave it for him to stake the castle nut professionally, pick up my .45 and "leave" my Bushmaster. The castle nut's "tight", by manual "feel". Don't know about the "torque": I'm making an assumption there, and y'all know what "assumptions" can get us...
On the one hand, I reckon it doesn't matter if he stakes it. That would "secure" it for firing for my purposes. On the other hand, would like to know if it's "solid" OEM out of the factory, pre-firing, as far as torquing, other than it not being staked at all...
Appreciate it. Y'all take care. If you're in Texas and you went through Ike as I did, I feel for you. Believe me. Was a bad one. Real bad. We're trying to help y'all, just not enough folks and equipment... Interested to know about this, pre-staking...
Mick
Blackwater, I kind of thought you were full of shit about the Military manuals not calling for castle nut staking so I dug it up: http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM9-1005-319-23.pdf Go to page 200 and see "6J" for proof.
The other interesting thing you will read on page 200 is item "6A." It advises you to lube the threads. Now why would they tell you to lube the threads???? Oh wait, I know!! It is because using a steel castle nut on an Alum. receiver extension creates galling!!! :eek:
BW, I hope that you are not a REAL armorer for any place of importance and if you are, you should be most likely be getting to fixing all the guns that are FUBARD. ;)
C4
Wow, such easily accessed information to lose all credibility over.
Wow, such easily accessed information to lose all credibility over.
Agree.
C4
DocMinster
09-17-08, 09:29
It's hard to beat a Colt 6920. There are ways to mix and match your way to a "better" or "almost as good" gun for less money, but it's still hard to beat a 6920.
You might also look at the N4 Light Basic (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lcb&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=) and the N4 Light Recce Basic (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=n4lrb&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=). Both come with parts that many would consider "upgrades" from the Colt (Vltor stock, Tango Down pistol grip, Troy rear sight) as well as a barrel that is arguably more accurate than a stock Colt and with a profile that certainly makes much more logical sense than an M4 profile but at the same weight.
I agree Colt 6920 is the bees knees
Doc
Mick_In_Texas
11-01-08, 16:26
While I have a note of the Colt 6920... and have looked at it, having acquired another Colt 1911 in the last two months... still have my Bushmaster M4A2.
But... I got the bolt carrier group back from Grant at G&R Tactical today. He did, as y'all said he would, a fine job on it: the staking looks much better, and the finish is fine!
Next step, now that hurricane season is over and the holiday season is approaching: have the castle nut staked. I talked to my FFL/gunsmith about this when I picked up the recent Colt pistol acquisition from him.
Then, I hope to get the Bushmaster to the range, after a cleaning and lubing. I sure don't want to sell it if it's serviceable: had an offer to buy one of my .45s about four weeks ago, and I declined. I do NOT want to get rid of any firearms any more! Told the gentleman (a co-worker) some sources for new guns... he's law-abiding and works with me directly at work. And wished him luck. My supervisor also took a stab at the .45, but told him the same thing...
Hope to take the Bushmaster to work during the transfer to my FFL/gunsmith... I don't believe anyone there has seen the M4 version of the AR15 rifle. I love the way these look.
And if I get rich quick... yeah, holding my breath, I know... that Colt 6920...
Y'all take care. Grant's work is once again recommended!
Mick
Jay Cunningham
11-01-08, 16:36
Next step, now that hurricane season is over and the holiday season is approaching: have the castle nut staked. I talked to my FFL/gunsmith about this when I picked up the recent Colt pistol acquisition from him.
If you even have the remotest touch of mechanical aptitude (and a ball peen hammer and punch) you can do this yourself.
Alternately, you can use blue Loc-Tite. ;)
I just ordered an "A2" lower receiver for my LMT Standard 16 inch "M-4" upper
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_4813.jpg
Robb Jensen
11-03-08, 05:36
sorry:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2cgda41.jpg
When I encounter OEM castle nut on a RRA or one on any AR where it just doesn't want to come lose I use a 2000 watt heatgun. It breaks down the blue loc-tite that some people love to use.
Sierrahotel83
11-03-08, 16:36
I, having read this thread all the way through in one sitting,have to say a few things:
1- I have a bushmaster M4A3 I love it but I also know that it needs some work I am quite confident that my rifle was made in late 2004 or 2005 as I baught it used but like new in Mar 2006 the bolt carrier is staked fine but as far as I can tell the castle nut hasn't but I am waiting to do that until I get a Mil. Spec RE tube to do that as I don't run 1000s of rounds through it:mad: wish iI did
2- I don't understand why people cant read through this site and figure out who knows what they are talking about. I just love to hear people talking out their ass... ;)
3- I won't buy a Colt but it has nothing to do with workmanship... I just don't like Colt I want to buy a LMT
Sorry If I ranted
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