Is the government regulating, and surplusing, people out of jobs?

[Mauser KAR98K]

I have to ask this question as I'm going on for a month looking for a better career with my degree, and risking a skill I have to not be my last option.

I had gone back to a driving job back in May. I left last month after living on the road was costing half my income, getting hauls that were short (though the company did keep me moving), had to get a CPAP machine that also cost me to rent and made me feel worse from what I was "diagnosed" with, and the company I was working for was pulling some shading practices to keep me from getting a quarterly bonus (giving me late loads and not forgiving them on an ETA battery scale).

Now I'm back to competing with all the new undergrads looking for a better career to settle down with, be home every night, not looking for a place to park to sleep, and overall make good on the time and effort of my degree. Every position I have a applied for wants experience, yet where do I get it? The jobs I did get interviews for were door-to-door insurance salesmen, or telecom/cable providers with a "management" job in a year to two, all based on commissions. (Honestly they seemed like pyramid schemes).

If this is the American dream after college, then it is a nightmare. I can't sell assets I have due to people not wanting to buy, and I have just missed my second student loan payment. Even minimum wage jobs can't support my debt, and also assist my mom in hears and the house.

What I have: a B.S. in History. I was aiming to pursuing a teaching career, go back to school and get my license, but now that is far off as the state has changed requirements and the program I would have to attend in order to get it. Instead of a year or less to get it, it is now required I go and get a Masters in a field I don't know a thing about and pay graduate tuition rates. I'm having a hard time justify $20,000 more (even if it puts me on a higher pay scale) for a public teaching job. I know that long careers equal time to get on your feet, but I'm not one to stay in debt for long periods of time.

With this said, looking outward, a job that could help me with the skills I have could help me, but the cost of living, and the requirements that the government (companies for the mean time but the mandating seems to come from Uncle Sam) have pushed me out of it. It is income, but it won't help me get where I need to be, and really where I want to be. But I am also back to bumping around a very saturated worker pool thanks to the idea that everyone should have an education. Unfortunate for me, I started school to get my degree on the trail end of the 2008 recession (summer of '09). Along with a metric ton of others.

I'm not making this post as an excuse to my current situation. It's just my observations tell me I'm up against something else besides being a brand new undergrad.

[SteyrAUG]

All I know is that a LOT of people who had money to buy guns regularly for 10 years are now watching their expenses. And so am I.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm going to be brutally blunt, in today's economy and employment climate your history degree was a complete waste of time and money. Sorry about that. However, stop trying to throw good money after bad.

Manufacturing, despite the popular opinion of people (including the press) who know next to nothing about it, is not dead in this country. In fact, it is hurting for people.

What is dead is the idea that you can go into an unskilled mfg job at 18 and retire at 50 with a bass boat, huge truck, and cabin by the lake.

In order to make it in mfg today, you need a technical skill but not necessarily one that requires a bachelor's degree. Skills such as advanced welding, PLC and automation programming, CNC machining, and inspection/metrology technology can be bought for a whole lot less than a college degree and jobs are waiting to be filled. Jobs for which there are no contrived government "standards" to meet (unlike teaching) and where union membership is almost completely a thing of the past (unlike teaching)

[.46caliber]

Frickin tapatalk

[.46caliber]

I came out of school with a Fine Arts degree, talk about useless degree in this economy. I was fortunate to find a creative job where the degree was useful but not directly related. I feel your pain.

I've got two friends with History degrees. One works with me, and is finishing his Master's so he can teach at the collegiate level. The other has a nice job at one of the Federal Archive facilities here in the area.

There is more than one way to use any particular degree to your advantage. Though I'd love to see more of folks like us on the forum in teaching, its a hard road as Alpha pointed out.

Though mass manufacturing isn't what it used to be here, there is still a need for skilled trades as Alpha also pointed out.

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[BufordTJustice]

I'm going to be brutally blunt, in today's economy and employment climate your history degree was a complete waste of time and money. Sorry about that. However, stop trying to throw good money after bad.

Manufacturing, despite the popular opinion of people (including the press) who know next to nothing about it, is not dead in this country. In fact, it is hurting for people.

What is dead is the idea that you can go into an unskilled mfg job at 18 and retire at 50 with a bass boat, huge truck, and cabin by the lake.

In order to make it in mfg today, you need a technical skill but not necessarily one that requires a bachelor's degree. Skills such as advanced welding, PLC and automation programming, CNC machining, and inspection/metrology technology can be bought for a whole lot less than a college degree and jobs are waiting to be filled. Jobs for which there are no contrived government "standards" to meet (unlike teaching) and where union membership is almost completely a thing of the past (unlike teaching)
I agree. And im still paying off my B.S. Which is applicable to law enforcement.

Stop the bleeding and enter a trade. Even an Hvac tech or a plumber can earn a very decent wage.

The student loan bubble is about to burst when defaults become common place and the government starts garnishing wages to get their money back.

[Crow Hunter]

I have to ask this question as I'm going on for a month looking for a better career with my degree, and risking a skill I have to not be my last option.

I had gone back to a driving job back in May. I left last month after living on the road was costing half my income, getting hauls that were short (though the company did keep me moving), had to get a CPAP machine that also cost me to rent and made me feel worse from what I was "diagnosed" with, and the company I was working for was pulling some shading practices to keep me from getting a quarterly bonus (giving me late loads and not forgiving them on an ETA battery scale).

Now I'm back to competing with all the new undergrads looking for a better career to settle down with, be home every night, not looking for a place to park to sleep, and overall make good on the time and effort of my degree. Every position I have a applied for wants experience, yet where do I get it? The jobs I did get interviews for were door-to-door insurance salesmen, or telecom/cable providers with a "management" job in a year to two, all based on commissions. (Honestly they seemed like pyramid schemes).

If this is the American dream after college, then it is a nightmare. I can't sell assets I have due to people not wanting to buy, and I have just missed my second student loan payment. Even minimum wage jobs can't support my debt, and also assist my mom in hears and the house.

What I have: a B.S. in History. I was aiming to pursuing a teaching career, go back to school and get my license, but now that is far off as the state has changed requirements and the program I would have to attend in order to get it. Instead of a year or less to get it, it is now required I go and get a Masters in a field I don't know a thing about and pay graduate tuition rates. I'm having a hard time justify $20,000 more (even if it puts me on a higher pay scale) for a public teaching job. I know that long careers equal time to get on your feet, but I'm not one to stay in debt for long periods of time.

With this said, looking outward, a job that could help me with the skills I have could help me, but the cost of living, and the requirements that the government (companies for the mean time but the mandating seems to come from Uncle Sam) have pushed me out of it. It is income, but it won't help me get where I need to be, and really where I want to be. But I am also back to bumping around a very saturated worker pool thanks to the idea that everyone should have an education. Unfortunate for me, I started school to get my degree on the trail end of the 2008 recession (summer of '09). Along with a metric ton of others.

I'm not making this post as an excuse to my current situation. It's just my observations tell me I'm up against something else besides being a brand new undergrad.

I know you are a fellow Tennesseean. Which part? Depending on where, I might be able to point you towards some manufacturing jobs.

I will echo Alpha.

A History degree isn't really going to help you much except in very narrow fields and most of them won't be in Tennessee. I know. I used to want to be an Archaeologist/Anthropologist really bad.

You can make a surprisingly good income if you can find a good manufacturing company to work for or if you would rather, going into the skilled trades are even better especially if you want to work for yourself. Fewer and fewer people want to or are capable of doing their own work and that is really a job opportunity.

On the manufacturing side, if you are in the West part of TN or are willing to move here, I can help you out. My wife is the HR manager of one of the better paying manufacturing employers in the area. If you are around Clarksville, I might be able to help at one of the local manufacturing plants where I still know a bunch of people.

Also take a hard look at the railroad. My brother was working for CSX as a brakeman/conductor and then as an engineer and making VERY good money. Especially considering he never finished his degree. If you aren't married and don't have a family you can clean up. Excellent pay, RR Retirement (instead of Social Security), Union work with lots of overtime. When he put his mind to it he could easily get into $100,000+/year But you do have crappy/wierd hours and long stretches of work without a day off. But honestly it was better work than what I was doing as a engineering manager at an automotive Tier 1 supplier. You HAVE to by law be given 12 hours rest time between shifts. The only catch is that you will have to pay for your training. You will get it back after you work for a while.

IF you can get a teaching gig, you won't reqret it unless you have never worked anywhere else like most of my inlaws. They are all teachers and complain all the time about their jobs. Of course it sucks terribly to be off every time it snows, all summer, several weeks during the year and Christmas. It really sucks to earn enough sick time to retire 1.5 years early by just using all that sick time. My favorite is when my MIL asked my wife to go and do something with her during the week and my wife said she couldn't get off and my MIL said, "Can't you just get a substitute?" Umm... No...

[Eurodriver]

Alpha hit the nail on the head. I started out as a history major in college. I changed after meeting a guy with a history degree who was a school bus driver, even though switching added an extra year to my time. The military doesn't care what degree you have (Lots of Poly Sci - Why try? Company Commanders) but I wanted something I could fall back on. It ended up taking me down a completely different road, but it's all about having a skillset that is needed. Whether that is building something with your hands or sitting at a desk (actuaries) it doesn't matter.

I don't know what your situation is in life, financially, etc. But getting a good degree or skills in a trade is step one in a career that makes money.

Hell, you've got a bachelors. Have you thought about a commission? LEO?

[SomeOtherGuy]

I'll echo the comments on getting into a skilled trade. Many of the trade unions have their own schools and apprenticeship programs. (Yeah, I'm generally not pro-union, but in these fields it's probably good for the workers.) My cousin became an electrician that route, and it has worked very well for him. He's no longer a "union" electrician since he has a full time job at a hospital, but he's using the same skills, and as far as I know didn't take on any debt to get there.

I'm not familiar with the training paths for other trades, but most of them, especially the ones needed for maintenance of existing buildings (like HVAC and plumbing) should be good career options today and in the future. Not the most glamorous or exciting job, but pays better than a LOT of college-degree jobs, and no one is shooting at you.

[ramairthree]

Get an education that truly qualifies you to do something.

Everybody uses electricity, everybody has a car, everybody needs medical care, etc.

I know several people that used tuition assistance to get internet degrees, etc. such as Masters of Health Administration, MBAs etc. and are set up for nothing but to hope the government does not start cutting back on GS jobs. More people coming out of highly reputable brick and mortar Universities with similar degrees than there are jobs and they cannot do anything vs. a welder, auto mechanic, ADN or BSN nurse, etc. where employers cannot find enough people to hire.

[Alpha Sierra]

Unless your college degree is in a HARD science or engineering, it ain't worth shit unless you are willing to pony up the bucks to get at least a Master's and maybe even a doctorate (the law/medicine kind).

What's better, a job that starts at $50K with about $20K of student debt or one that pays $80K with $300,000 of student debt?

[Eurodriver]

Unless your college degree is in a HARD science or engineering, it ain't worth shit unless you are willing to pony up the bucks to get at least a Master's and maybe even a doctorate (the law/medicine kind).

What's better, a job that starts at $50K with about $20K of student debt or one that pays $80K with $300,000 of student debt?

Plenty of jobs out there for degrees out there in jobs other than hard science and engineers. In fact, I know several accounting majors who haven't even graduated yet making $45k/year and a Biology major (HARD science) who is returning to school to get a Chemical Engineering. You just need a job that "normal" people can't do, and that businesses need.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I know several people that used tuition assistance to get internet degrees, etc. such as Masters of Health Administration, MBAs etc. and are set up for nothing but to hope the government does not start cutting back on GS jobs. More people coming out of highly reputable brick and mortar Universities with similar degrees than there are jobs and they cannot do anything vs. a welder, auto mechanic, ADN or BSN nurse, etc. where employers cannot find enough people to hire.

Just have some idea of what the job involves. I know several nurses and the schedules, working conditions and patients (or their families) aren't for everyone. One of my wife's cousins is a diesel mechanic. Now that he works for an ambulance service he has a good job, but working for dealerships was unpleasant. Trucking companies are always hiring - but for a reason. If you can get into being an electrician, plumber or HVAC tech, those all seem to be reasonably pleasant with decent pay, and the ability to live a normal family life. I'm sure there are other good options too.

[.46caliber]

The student loan bubble is about to burst when defaults become common place and the government starts garnishing wages to get their money back.

Not if the Dems have their way. Instead of garnishing the student who took the loan, they want to use your tax dollars to pay off the loans.

I hate my loan payment. But it's mine. I agreed to take on that debt. Though I'd love for someone to voluntarily say, "I got this one.", I will not support legislation that takes the public's taxes to pay MY debt.

That is not what Federal tax dollars should be used for.

Sorry OP. End thread jacking.


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[lunchbox]

+1 For tech school of some sort. I went into the Machine shop technologies (machinist) program and instructor got me a good paying CNC job (in first month) that also worked around my class schedule. I don't have any debt but I do have two kids, my wife was pregnant with first child when I decided I needed to secure future. Up till then I was doing various jobs (HVAC,Sheetrock,labor in general) and hated that people with a degree, got twice as much $ and did half as much work. I remember reading an article saying that manufacturing was on sharp rise and jobs were in great demand. Sited many companies that sent jobs overseas, were unsatisfied with quality of products being produced, and coming back to US products. I also talked to gunsmith friend who also steered me towards Manf. Jobs.... And it just so happens that AL is the second highest paying state for machinist. I only kick myself for not doing it sooner.

[Mauser KAR98K]

I fully understand the tech jobs and the money they make. Unfortunately I'm kinda in a pickle.

It is good to see, country wise, that those jobs are there and are on the rise. For the economy to really come back, the U.S. needs to ease off the service industry and go more to manufacturing. Having the highest corporate tax for business, income tax, NAFTA, and competing with very cheap labor around the world does not help.

My reasons for getting a degree and the one I got was to satisfy a angst I have: ignorance. I knock at people who permeate with it, but I had a hard time looking in the mirror and not call myself a hypocrite. I also wanted to go to a University to mold my creative thought process and strengthen it with facts, or fact finding skills. I go beyond loving history as wanting more as a big tool box. I had to satisfy myself and check a box in my life that I feared later I would regret. Did I want it to help me find bigger and better careers? Yes. But did I want it for something deep inside of me? That was the ultimate goal.

I had aspirations to get the Piled High and Deeper notch, but after four and half years, dealing with my dad's death and easing the pain for my mom, I needed to work with what I had earned and move on with my life. (Plus I was getting fed up with Academia and the ivory tower statis view of how the world should work). I was also hoping Obama would have been gone.

Today I applied for a position at the Bureau of Prisons. It is the one job I have applied for that said I was very qualified for the position. See how that goes.

[Alpha Sierra]

My reasons for getting a degree and the one I got was to satisfy a angst I have: ignorance.

You are better off buying quality books in various topics (history, economics, politics, philosophy, etc) and thinking on your own to satisfy your desire for knowledge. Truly.

[Alpha Sierra]

and hated that people with a degree, got twice as much $ and did half as much work.
If you are speaking about certain people in particular, then you may have a point.

However, it does seem that you are making a broad statement about a certain class of worker. In which case you are wrong.

The work done by people with advanced education looks like easy gravy to people who have only ever done manual labor, until they actually try to do what we do.

If you think that a business can run itself with only people doing production work, go ahead and start one that way. Let me know how it goes.

[Crow Hunter]

If you are speaking about certain people in particular, then you may have a point.

However, it does seem that you are making a broad statement about a certain class of worker. In which case you are wrong.

The work done by people with advanced education looks like easy gravy to people who have only ever done manual labor, until they actually try to do what we do.

If you think that a business can run itself with only people doing production work, go ahead and start one that way. Let me know how it goes.

This is something that is a pet peeve of mine. I hear it all the time where I work that it "isn't fair" that I "get so much money" and I "don't have to work weekends" or I get to "sit in an office instead of doing real work" while they are putting together the parts that I designed.

I did "real work" when I spent 6 years after high school working 20-40hrs per week while in engineering school and spending my summers working 50+hrs/week in sewing factories/changing oil/washing cars or sacking groceries so I could go to engineering school and NOT have to do "real work" when I got out.

My response is normally reserved and respectful as befits my position but what I want to say is "I can and have done your job before, can you do mine? When you can do what I can do, you can do my job."

Like Euro says, that is the key to getting more $ for your labor. You must be able to do something that fewer people can do. There are lots of people who can't or are unwilling to work on their AC units (I am one of them. I hate HVAC work.) or cars or plumbing and a host of other skilled trades jobs that require you to get dirty or have specialized tools. (I do my own vehicle, plumbing, and carpentry work) That is a good way to make money if you aren't in a STEM field.

Heck, most people don't even do their own taxes even when they could file on a 1040 EZ and will pay someone else who can do basic math to do it for them. (Or in some cases just type it into a computer for them :rolleyes:)

Industrial maintenance is a field that I KNOW there are limited qualified applicants for. Because I occasionally get called out to help them since I don't do "real work" and I actually understand how and why a CNC can have its physical hard stop inside its soft limits and how to fix it. ;)

[Alpha Sierra]

My response is normally reserved and respectful as befits my position but what I want to say is "I can and have done your job before, can you do mine? When you can do what I can do, you can do my job."

I have, on a few occassions, half jokingly/half seriously offered my office for a week to people who have made those remarks about "real work".

[Eurodriver]

However, it does seem that you are making a broad statement about a certain class of worker. In which case you are wrong.



This is something that is a pet peeve of mine. I hear it all the time where I work that it "isn't fair" that I "get so much money" and I "don't have to work weekends" or I get to "sit in an office instead of doing real work" while they are putting together the parts that I designed.

Heck, most people don't even do their own taxes even when they could file on a 1040 EZ and will pay someone else who can do basic math to do it for them. (Or in some cases just type it into a computer for them :rolleyes:)


Have you guys gotten the "I just didn't have the same opportunities you did, man." from someone you knew in high school? It's like bro, you grew up in a house that had *money* but instead of using that to your advantage you just used your fat allowance money to buy weed. Now put whole milk in that latte and go away.

And you speak the truth about taxes. It's not just elderly people (what I suspected when I started) either. I can't tell you how many 20-somethings pay our firm $100+ a return (that is our minimum) despite them only having a single W2. I tell them all the time they can easily do it themselves, but they can't be bothered. People like that earn us over $600/hr. Ain't no history major earning $600 an hour.

[Alpha Sierra]

Have you guys gotten the "I just didn't have the same opportunities you did, man." from someone you knew in high school?

Not from those, but from average libtards that I meet here and there. My answer is always the same: tough shit.

[Crow Hunter]

Have you guys gotten the "I just didn't have the same opportunities you did, man." from someone you knew in high school? It's like bro, you grew up in a house that had *money* but instead of using that to your advantage you just used your fat allowance money to buy weed. Now put whole milk in that latte and go away.

And you speak the truth about taxes. It's not just elderly people (what I suspected when I started) either. I can't tell you how many 20-somethings pay our firm $100+ a return (that is our minimum) despite them only having a single W2. I tell them all the time they can easily do it themselves, but they can't be bothered. People like that earn us over $600/hr. Ain't no history major earning $600 an hour.

All the time. Especially where I work.

That is when I remind them that my Dad was the first member of his extended family to graduate high school and I was the first to graduate from college. My Mom's father was a wife beating alcoholic share cropper/part time wood cutter and her Mother did not even know who her father was. (Think single mothering is hard now, try it in the 1920s)

There was no such thing as SSI or Disability or SNAP or WIC or any of that and they graduated from High School and made sure that the expectation was set that I would graduate from college.

If they could do that, there is no reason in Hell that the people around here, that qualify for WAY more assistance that I ever did couldn't be successful.

Hell, math is my WORST subject by a long shot. I think I got a 16 on the ACT on my math skills but I graduated with an Engineering degree and have had a successful career so for. But I had to WORK FOR IT.

Don't get me started on taxes. I try to help people here and they just don't WANT to understand it, even if it is costing them money.:confused:

[wildcard600]

just curious, but how much did a year of college cost you guys ?

[Crow Hunter]

just curious, but how much did a year of college cost you guys ?

My first 2 years were scholarship at a private Christian school that didn't cost me anything other than books. But the non scholarship tuition was something like $10,000/year in the early 1990's.

I finished up at a state school that was something around $1,400-$1,700/semester (maybe more) plus books and around $600-800/semester for the dorms plus whatever I had to eat. (Lots of cheese and ketchup sandwiches) I think I got a discount for working on campus some. My wage working at Carhartt during the summers making overalls was something around $5/hour, IIRC. I think I was getting paid a couple $ over minimum. But it has been a long time.

My parents helped me with some of the costs when I didn't have enough as long as I kept a B average. Otherwise I was completely on my own.

This was from 1991-1997.

[wildcard600]

My first 2 years were scholarship at a private Christian school that didn't cost me anything other than books. But the non scholarship tuition was something like $10,000/year in the early 1990's.

I finished up at a state school that was something around $1,400-$1,700/semester (maybe more) plus books and around $600-800/semester for the dorms plus whatever I had to eat. (Lots of cheese and ketchup sandwiches) I think I got a discount for working on campus some. My wage working at Carhartt during the summers making overalls was something around $5/hour, IIRC. I think I was getting paid a couple $ over minimum. But it has been a long time.

My parents helped me with some of the costs when I didn't have enough as long as I kept a B average. Otherwise I was completely on my own.

This was from 1991-1997.

interesting to see how much costs increase in just a few years and vary by region. when i enrolled in our "local" 4 year VT state college in 2007 tuition was ~$6,000 a semester not including books and board. i lived off campus but i think they quoted ~$15,000 semester as the average baseline for an on campus student.

[Eurodriver]

just curious, but how much did a year of college cost you guys ?

ETA: Just did the math and after tuition books parking permits and all the other BS I made $23,672 per year for going to school.

That post 9/11 GI Bill is the bees knees.

[Crow Hunter]

interesting to see how much costs increase in just a few years and vary by region. when i enrolled in our "local" 4 year VT state college in 2007 tuition was ~$6,000 a semester not including books and board. i lived off campus but i think they quoted ~$15,000 semester as the average baseline for an on campus student.

IIRC someone was talking to me about the private Christian school I first attended and they told me that tuition was now $30,000/semester...:fie:

I just checked and tuition at the school I graduated from is $4,200 or so per semester.

Unfortunately it is supply and demand driven. When everyone wants a college education, whether they need it or not, they are going to drive up the costs for everyone else. Every African American Women's Studies or 16th Century German Poets or Music Theory major requires faculty and support and admin staff/buildings/etc. That is spread across the whole school and everyone winds up paying more and getting less for it.

I remember taking a few non engineering related courses while at the school I graduated from. Holy crap the number of people in those classes was ridiculous. I can't imagine what it is like now.

I luckily took almost all my core classes at the private school where the student/teacher ratio was relatively small and the teachers were all very good. At the state school, half of the "teachers" in the non-engineering classes were non-english speaking grad students and I could have done better just reading the book myself.

Now my engineering classes were smaller and most of the teachers were quite good. Although I did have a Mechanics of Materials professor from China who said: "Streah, Streah and Streah" For Strength, Stress and Strain. 3 completely different features of materials. You had to be able to see what symbol he was writing to know what he was talking about.:rolleyes:

[Alpha Sierra]

just curious, but how much did a year of college cost you guys ?

$0

US Naval Academy for undergrad. Employer paid 100% of MBA tuition at state university system campus.

[lunchbox]

If you are speaking about certain people in particular, then you may have a point.

However, it does seem that you are making a broad statement about a certain class of worker. In which case you are wrong.

The work done by people with advanced education looks like easy gravy to people who have only ever done manual labor, until they actually try to do what we do.

If you think that a business can run itself with only people doing production work, go ahead and start one that way. Let me know how it goes.Maybe I should clarify. I wasn't mad at anybody but myself, so I changed my situation. I'll give another example to illustrate that having a degree brings in more income vs not. Me and fellow classmate both got a job at same place, with the same skill set, and same skill level; but I made $2 more because I graduated early and he hadn't at the time. As soon as he graduated he got his pay increase.
And as far as company surviving with only production workers, it couldn't. Just like a company couldn't survive with just upper management. From my experience the most successful companies work as a team....

[TehLlama]

I've got a Computer Science degree, and I've taken a pause on working towards my masters (again, another really high demand degree) because I've found that I enjoy working in machine shops so much, even as an apprentice CNC Machinist, and having to work for free the first month or so to get my foot in the door (and demonstrate that I would produce more in good parts than it would cost them to replace tooling and work holders to keep training me).

Post 9/11 GI Bill is insanely handy, and yellow ribbon schools make that happen - I'll run out of that as I finish my MS, but I really feel for anybody within a few years of my age that is coming out with the same degrees, zero work experience, and mountains of debt, there's no way they can compete with candidates like me in this job market.

I'd really look at what light industrial options are around, even if you're just doing some driving for them up front (again, you have something already of value to them, use that to get your foot in the door). I'm always amazed at how much these small local firms are willing to put in effort wise for somebody who is trustworthy and curious/willing to put in the time to learn, it's humbling for me that they're so willing to help, even though the benefit is mutual.

[Alpha Sierra]

Maybe I should clarify. I wasn't mad at anybody but myself, so I changed my situation. I'll give another example to illustrate that having a degree brings in more income vs not. Me and fellow classmate both got a job at same place, with the same skill set, and same skill level; but I made $2 more because I graduated early and he hadn't at the time. As soon as he graduated he got his pay increase.
And as far as company surviving with only production workers, it couldn't. Just like a company couldn't survive with just upper management. From my experience the most successful companies work as a team....
OK, I'm tracking....