View Full Version : Top two tiers of Handguns for Police, Military or HD ?
This questions come my trying to figure out where CZ and Taurus eye fit into the Semi Auto handgun world. I have never owned either. But I see many people like theirs.
Top Tier -In my mind :
HK
M&P
FNP FNX
Glock
Beretta ?
Sig , yes this forum hates them for their gun of the month club but..standard 226 220..
and yes XD I guess
Tier Two :
Walther, Plenty Folks love theirs??
CZ
Taurus
Kahr
Ruger
Im not talking 1911's, thats its own world. And hey, I already know that answer:cool: Rock River
Or Wheel guns , Smith owns that space , sorry Ruger :D
Not trying to start a fight, just wanted the perception of other shooters. And Im sure I missed someones favorite gun.
KentuckyWindage
08-22-14, 11:07
Where's the Beretta?
Tier 2.5?
MSparks909
08-22-14, 11:29
How do you define "Top Tier" from "Tier Two?"
WickedWillis
08-22-14, 11:33
XD should be Tier never, in my humble opinion :cool:. And I also feel that you are not giving CZ enough credit here. My tops are HK, Sig, Glock and M&P.
shutup&shoot
08-22-14, 11:36
I don't know about Walther and CZ in tier two. I think a little more highly of them.
shutup&shoot
08-22-14, 11:37
XD should be Tier never, in my humble opinion :cool:. And I also feel that you are not giving CZ enough credit here. My tops are HK, Sig, Glock and M&P.
What about the PPQ?
WickedWillis
08-22-14, 11:41
What about the PPQ?
It's not far off. It is really close to the M&P for me.
shutup&shoot
08-22-14, 11:46
How about a M&P 9 with HK accuracy and PPQ trigger.
What do you consider the requirements for a Tier 1 vs Tier 2 pistol?
I have owned pistols from Glock, Walther, S&W M&P, FN, HK, Sig, Beretta, and Taurus, and shot many of these in multiple advanced pistol classes in rough conditions. Out of the pistols I've owned and shot, the only ones that I've had issues with are the Taurus and the Beretta. I've shot, but never owned a CZ, but heard great things about them. After shooting and owning many pistols, my daily carry gun and go-to pistol is the Walther PPQ 9mm.
In my opinion, Tier 1 and Tier 2 pistols are as follows: And this is based on reliability, functionality, and accuracy
Tier 1 (not in any particular order)
- HK
- Glock
- M&P
- Walther
- FN
- Sig (mainly the older ones)
- CZ (although I haven't shot this one extensively)
Tier 2
- Taurus
- Beretta
- Springfield XD
- Ruger
- Kahr
- Keltec
Tier 3
- Highpoint
crusader377
08-22-14, 12:11
I'm not huge on the tier system for pistols with myself I think it is a question is it a good choice for HD or LEO/Military use or isn't it. Personally myself the following more than likely make the cut and all others I have absolutely no use for nor should anyone else. Of the top of my head, I would have confidence with these pistols and would recommend them to a friend or family member.
S&W M&P
FN: Hi Power and FNX/FNS
CZ: CZ 75 and derivatives including polymer versions
Sig: Mainly older ones
H&K
Glock
Walther, (PPQ and P99) Uncertain about PPX
Beretta (92 series) I'm uncertain of the PX4 and wouldn't recommend it until I had more information on it.
plouffedaddy
08-22-14, 12:32
I wouldn't put the CZ75 variants in the 2nd tier category at all. Every bit as reliable/durable as any other platform out there.
brickboy240
08-22-14, 12:47
For cops it should go...
Glock
HK
SIG
...and sometimes a high end 1911 (Wilson, Nighthawk, Baer)
Everything else is just too iffy.
If I was LEO...that would be my guidelines. Things like Rugers and Taurus do not belong in any cop's holster....sorry.
-brickboy240
BoringGuy45
08-22-14, 12:51
What do you consider the requirements for a Tier 1 vs Tier 2 pistol?
I have owned pistols from Glock, Walther, S&W M&P, FN, HK, Sig, Beretta, and Taurus, and shot many of these in multiple advanced pistol classes in rough conditions. Out of the pistols I've owned and shot, the only ones that I've had issues with are the Taurus and the Beretta. I've shot, but never owned a CZ, but heard great things about them. After shooting and owning many pistols, my daily carry gun and go-to pistol is the Walther PPQ 9mm.
In my opinion, Tier 1 and Tier 2 pistols are as follows: And this is based on reliability, functionality, and accuracy
Tier 1 (not in any particular order)
- HK
- Glock
- M&P
- Walther
- FN
- Sig (mainly the older ones)
- CZ (although I haven't shot this one extensively)
Tier 2
- Taurus
- Beretta
- Springfield XD
- Ruger
- Kahr
- Keltec
Tier 3
- Highpoint
I'd agree with this list. CZs are solid as a rock, but because they never really gained any mainstream acceptance as a duty weapon here in the U.S, they don't get the attention and respect that a lot of the other tier 1 duty weapons get. The CZ 75 P-01 is, in my opinion, one of the best 9mm pistols on the market in terms of ergonomics, accuracy, ruggedness, and reliability. The 75 series' only problems are that there's not much in the way of accessories or holsters available for them, they aren't quite as easy to field strip as, say, a Glock, M&P, HK, etc, and they are DA/SA and that's starting to be considered obsolete.
acaixguard
08-22-14, 15:17
What is defines a weapon as tier 1 or 2? Is it based on weapon quality, or popularity within LEO/Mil?
Under either criteria, guns like Taurus and Keltec shouldn't make either list.
Alpha Sierra
08-22-14, 16:43
I'd agree with this list. CZs are solid as a rock, but because they never really gained any mainstream acceptance as a duty weapon here in the U.S, they don't get the attention and respect that a lot of the other tier 1 duty weapons get. The CZ 75 P-01 is, in my opinion, one of the best 9mm pistols on the market in terms of ergonomics, accuracy, ruggedness, and reliability. The 75 series' only problems are that there's not much in the way of accessories or holsters available for them, they aren't quite as easy to field strip as, say, a Glock, M&P, HK, etc, and they are DA/SA and that's starting to be considered obsolete.
CZ 75s and their derivatives are duty grade handguns. They have been widely accepted as police and military handguns through a wide swath of the world including many European police agencies. The fact that they are ignored by US police forces is a reflection of a lack of marketing and knowledge. And when it comes to accuracy out of the box, CZ handguns are second to none and better than most by a wide margin.
I disagree with your assessments of the downsides of the 75. While sight selection is less than overwhelming, there are enough options to please anyone. Holster selection is pretty much a wash. And if that were a bother, buy a $40 blue gun and send it to almost any holster maker to be returned with your new holster. What else does a handgun need? Grips? Plenty to find. Action work? Send it to Cajun Gun Works or CZ Custom.
I STRONGLY disagree with DA/SA becoming obsolete. Maybe on the internet. In the real world, a DA/SA with a decent trigger will give nothing to any striker fired pistol. I spent nearly 8 years with nothing but SF handguns (Glock and S&W) and now that I tried a CZ (P-07) I no longer own any SF pistols and doubt I ever will again. There is a reason why DA/SA pistols (especially CZs, its clones, and Berettas) dominate USPSA Production: a smooth, 5 - 6 lb DA trigger followed by a bunch of crisp, ultra short reset 2 lb SA triggers.
Tzintzuntzan
08-22-14, 17:02
Those guns are much more accurate in stock configuration than most S&W or Glock guns are with aftermarket support. That'd be my guess as to why they "dominate" the gun game that and Beretta and CZ produce pistols that can handle heavy round counts without too many problems.
No XD love at all here. I have had one for years with zero issues and plenty of rounds through it. Maybe I got lucky?
I'd have to say HK, Sig, and Walther at the top of the list. Not a Glock fan. Flame shield up.
MountainRaven
08-22-14, 23:30
Needs a third tier. And a fourth.
Tier 1 (would trust out of the box):
H&K
Wilson Combat
Nighthawk Custom
Springfield Custom Shop 1911s
Walther
P210, P220, 225, 226, 228, 229
S&W M&P and Third Gen DA autos
FN Hi-Power
Beretta 92/96
Glock
Tier 2 (would trust with testing and tweaking):
XDs
Production Springfield, Colt, Dan Wesson, S&W 1911s
CZ 75s
Most anything else that says SiG on it.
FN FNX/FNS
Ruger autos
Taurus PT-92s
Beretta Px4
Walther P-1
Lahti L-35
Tier 3 (better than throwing rocks... almost):
Anything else that says Taurus on it.
SiG P250
Kahr
Kel-Tec
Bersa
Makarov, Tokarev
FN Five-seveN
CZ 52, 82/83
Tier 4 (just throw rocks instead):
Hi-Point
I would put mp, sig, and cz in the top. I have never used, nor known anyone that used an XD, hk or FN so I cant opine.
I had a cz for a few years, and sold it as I prefer striker and am better with my m&p, (and glocks), and support is better(holsters, etc), I got sick of having to hunt for, and or modify stuff I wanted and cz didn't make the gun I wanted at the time.
That said, I ran the thing hard while I had it and never had a problem other than mag issues of modified mags. If you want a hammer 9mm, I always suggest cz converted to SAO. Low price, reliable, durable, and accurate with a decent amount of support.
Sigs are nice, but I hate the way they shoot, and I have no reason or desire to convert myself.
Taurus, khar, and and ruger are 2nd tier. I know people with Taurus and hkar, have shot both and the owners had problems, I was not surprised. My one friend had a ruger p89 (p98?), and while its a great budget gun (reliable?) Id did not seem durable for high round counts, was not accurate, had terrible recoil characteristics(maybe personal), and had 0 support worth talking about. The worst thing was the ergos, and I would put beretta 92 in 2nd tier for this reason. A non-safety mounted slide version would be bumped to the top.
How do you define "Top Tier" from "Tier Two?"
You can do that. Duty Ready is how I define it.
How about a M&P 9 with HK accuracy and PPQ trigger.
I have one of those !
This tiered rating system is nonsense.
You can assume that Taurus and Kel-Tec are near the bottom in quality, but a handgun by itself is never going to be duty ready and you should be careful assuming one handgun will be more reliable than another. Someone's "Tier 1" Sig or Glock could be junk while someone else's "Tier 4" Bulgarian Makarov will not stop working.
The user needs to purchase appropriate ammunition, verify reliability with 100s of rounds fired, and be able to maintain the pistol and its spare magazines.
This tiered rating system is nonsense.
You can assume that Taurus and Kel-Tec are near the bottom in quality, but a handgun by itself is never going to be duty ready and you should be careful assuming one handgun will be more reliable than another. Someone's "Tier 1" Sig or Glock could be junk while someone else's "Tier 4" Bulgarian Makarov will not stop working.
The user needs to purchase appropriate ammunition, verify reliability with 100s of rounds fired, and be able to maintain the pistol and its spare magazines.
I get what you're trying to say, however from my experience, there are certain brands of pistols that have a higher reliability and QC right out of the box than others (hence the attempt at tier rating).
The same can be said for ARs. Are there some Bushmasters and Oly arms out here that run well? Sure. But are Colts, BCMs, DD, KAC, etc much more reliable out of the box on a large scale? Absolutely. Not all guns are created equal, and that definitely goes for pistols as well
Which tier would Steyr fit into?
To do a valid rating of pistols for their reliability out of the box, there needs to be some actual data.
For example you could take ten pistols of a certain make and model and fire 1,000 rounds through them and compare them to others. You would probably want to test different manufacturing lots and date codes of each.
Hand waving, hearsay, and qualitative arguments are not valid.
I'm not saying that Taurus and HK should be considered equals, but in between those two makers things get pretty murky. Look at all the people having trouble with new Glocks and Sigs.
I get what you're trying to say, however from my experience, there are certain brands of pistols that have a higher reliability and QC right out of the box than others (hence the attempt at tier rating).
The same can be said for ARs. Are there some Bushmasters and Oly arms out here that run well? Sure. But are Colts, BCMs, DD, KAC, etc much more reliable out of the box on a large scale? Absolutely. Not all guns are created equal, and that definitely goes for pistols as well
Which tier would Steyr fit into?
Would depend on who you ask. I wouldn't rate them highly. I've owned two and both were unreliable.
IMO we should be specific about which models we are rating. For example I would rate the Beretta 92 series in the top based on experience and reputation. Other models in the line not so sure. SIG's classics are usually well done. LAV would say [I read this somewhere] that Glock has some dogs in the line up. I had a bad HK but in general they are consistently good.
To do a valid rating of pistols for their reliability out of the box, there needs to be some actual data.
For example you could take ten pistols of a certain make and model and fire 1,000 rounds through them and compare them to others. You would probably want to test different manufacturing lots and date codes of each.
Hand waving, hearsay, and qualitative arguments are not valid.
I'm not saying that Taurus and HK should be considered equals, but in between those two makers things get pretty murky. Look at all the people having trouble with new Glocks and Sigs.
This thread is comprised of questions and opinions based on the experience of users. It has never claimed to be absolute quantifiable data. If you want that, please feel free to test all of the pistols in question with thousands of rounds in exactly similar conditions, and we will all wait patiently for your perfect data before continuing the conversation. The beauty of this site, is that there are many real end users with LOTS of experience with multiple guns, so there is info to be gained by lots of end-user experience.
Between all the members on this forum, there have probably been 10s of thousands of rounds put through most of the pistols mentioned, with people relaying the results they have found. Based on a lot of user experience, it's pretty safe to categorize pistols based on a lot of broad gun community experience. That doesn't mean the data is perfect, or that there are perfect pistols out there. Even the best manufactures will have guns that have issues, but just like with ARs, there are companies and specific guns that seem to be more duty ready than others, at least a higher percentage of them.
In over twenty years of carrying and shooting pistols the three brands which I preferred for reliability, durability, and accuracy are Glock, SIG, and HK.
These three brands are well represented in both LE and the military (world-wide).
My current choice is almost any HK pistol model in 9mm or .45 ACP.
Vegasshooter
08-24-14, 08:40
In my 17 years as an LEO, I have carried many different pistols. I've carried a Glock 22, a Sig 226, a 220, a 1911, and I currently carry an HK45. Out of all 5 or 6 pistols I have carried, the Glock was the only one that ever gave me trouble. It was a very early gen 2 G22 that simply would not run 100% with a light on it. Several guys on my team experienced the same issue. The gun was solid w/o the light, but attach the light and it wouldn't be reliable. This was early on, and the issue has been addressed by Glock I think.
Of the Sigs I have run, or seen run, zero issues. There was a time when the Sig 229 was a very popular gun on my department. I haven't seen any issues with them.
My HK has thousands of rounds through it, with not even a bobble. It will most likely carry me to the end of my career and beyond.
These are just my observations, and ymmv.
It sure seems like Sig made great guns before the gun of the month program got up and running. And their base model 220's and 226's fair quite well. I've owned Glocks , MNP's, HK's, FNP, And recently a M9. But never a Sig. I've been tempted many a time.
Tzintzuntzan
08-24-14, 14:18
No offense but we need to stop trying to fit firearms into tiers since there is a big difference between a person who has been vetted as Tier One and a gun that functions reliably. It'd be much better, if you ask me, to put firearms into a trustworthy, questionable, and avoid matrix.
How about a "Jack Bauer approves" or "Jack Bauer disapproves" matrix? :D
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/24:_Live_Another_Day
It sure seems like Sig made great guns before the gun of the month program got up and running. And their base model 220's and 226's fair quite well. I've owned Glocks , MNP's, HK's, FNP, And recently a M9. But never a Sig. I've been tempted many a time.
I think the P226 in 9mm always has been and still is relatively bullet proof. In my experience, out of the box, the older guns ran smoother and had nicer triggers than the newer ones I've shot, but the newer ones have been fine. The trade off is that if you get one of the older German guns with the folded slide, you have to change those roll pins every 5000 rounds. IIRC, Bruce Gray said the most reliable guns were the mid to late 90s gun. I may be wrong, but that's what I recall. Others have said the pre-rail guns with the stainless slide and external extractor are the best of the P226s. Either way, you're talking about relatively the same era. Personally, I'd love to get one of the NSW serial numbered guns.
Beyond that I've shot the P226 in .40 and the P220 in .45 and both were fine, though I'm not sure either would be my first choice in either caliber. I don't know anything about their other assorted guns. The SP2022 seems to be highly regarded and some like their 1911s and some don't. Never shot either gun, so I don't have an opinion.
Tzintzuntzan
08-24-14, 17:16
How about a "Jack Bauer approves" or "Jack Bauer disapproves" matrix? :D
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/24:_Live_Another_Day
Who the heck is Jack Bauer?
Who the heck is Jack Bauer?
I think he's the guy who did that thing....you know? That guy? Sound familiar?
TexasGunNut
08-24-14, 19:21
We need a CHART! :suicide:
Tzintzuntzan
08-24-14, 19:27
I think he's the guy who did that thing....you know? That guy? Sound familiar?
It's about as much as I know about him, is he a movie character?
Never mind. Going to listen to my mother tonight.
I think the P226 in 9mm always has been and still is relatively bullet proof. In my experience, out of the box, the older guns ran smoother and had nicer triggers than the newer ones I've shot, but the newer ones have been fine. The trade off is that if you get one of the older German guns with the folded slide, you have to change those roll pins every 5000 rounds. IIRC, Bruce Gray said the most reliable guns were the mid to late 90s gun. I may be wrong, but that's what I recall. Others have said the pre-rail guns with the stainless slide and external extractor are the best of the P226s. Either way, you're talking about relatively the same era. Personally, I'd love to get one of the NSW serial numbered guns.
Beyond that I've shot the P226 in .40 and the P220 in .45 and both were fine, though I'm not sure either would be my first choice in either caliber. I don't know anything about their other assorted guns. The SP2022 seems to be highly regarded and some like their 1911s and some don't. Never shot either gun, so I don't have an opinion.
I don't know... At least some of the feds pulled them from service because they were developing frame and/or rail cracks. And the 226 was designed as a 9 - no way in he'll .I'd trust it to go the distance in 40.
The 220 and 226 have wonderful ergonomics, and I love that they finally offered SAO versions, but I'd be leery of buying a Sig that didn't say "Made in Germany."
ETA: In regard to the OP, I think there are too many handguns to come up with a reasonable list. It would be a nightmare to maintain. It would also need to be broken down by specific model, not just manufacturer. Some companies offer guns I'd trust and others I would not.
shutup&shoot
08-24-14, 20:08
Who the heck is Jack Bauer?
24, TV show.
Tzintzuntzan
08-24-14, 20:36
24, TV show.
Haven't heard of it before, what is it about?
I don't know... At least some of the feds pulled them from service because they were developing frame and/or rail cracks. And the 226 was designed as a 9 - no way in he'll .I'd trust it to go the distance in 40.
The 220 and 226 have wonderful ergonomics, and I love that they finally offered SAO versions, but I'd be leery of buying a Sig that didn't say "Made in Germany."
ETA: In regard to the OP, I think there are too many handguns to come up with a reasonable list. It would be a nightmare to maintain. It would also need to be broken down by specific model, not just manufacturer. Some companies offer guns I'd trust and others I would not.
Sorry, there's miscommunication here. What I mean by the 226 in .40 was fine is that it handles fine as in it handles the recoil of the round fine and is accurate. I don't know about longevity as I don't own a 226 .40. Regarding the 220, same thing as in it handles ok. Since we're on the subject of longevity, I hear various reports of it's a fine .45 and various reports that say it's fragile. I would expect neither to go as long as the 9mm version, but I would expect that's the case with any pistol. And as I said, neither would be my first choice in those calibers.
I think part of the problem with assigning "tiers" to handguns is because unlike ARs, there is no one mil-spec TDP or set of criteria with which to evaluate specific features as they relate to function. With the AR, even across different manufacturers, there are consistent standards.
"Duty ready" is a criteria, but to be honest, many handguns which have seen years of reliable service across the board in the hands of LE would probably be dismissed by many here. The first that come to mind are third generation Smith and Wesson semi-autos. I carried a 4506 for over a decade with unfailing reliability.
Currently, for reliablity and survivability, I think one would be hard pressed to beat HK. Their polymer handguns are very overbuilt, and have established a reputation for reliability and accuracy. Coming down in price point, I feel you get to Glock, particularly in 9mm, M&Ps, Beretta, and Sig. All of these have had varying issues with reliability or quality, but overall remain solid choices for duty use. CZ is well established world wide, but lacks the widespread support here in the USA for a lot of people to consider them top tier (I am very impressed with my sample of one P07), and the same with FN and Walther's recent offerings.
Like any weapon, regardless of "tier" one needs to vet that particular firearm to ensure reliable function before banking your life on it.
Alpha Sierra
08-25-14, 04:38
Safariland is releasing quite a bit of rentention holsters for the P-07 and P-09. Their acceptance by LE should fare better after that.
I don't know about Walther and CZ in tier two. I think a little more highly of them.
I wonder if the OP means that "Tier One" is for the most used pistols, versus those that are less prevalent with Law Enforcement Agencies? While CZ is a top notch firearms maker you certainly don't see them in many duty holsters in the U.S. Europe, Asia, and the M.E. maybe, but not U.S.
shutup&shoot
08-25-14, 06:35
I wonder if the OP means that "Tier One" is for the most used pistols, versus those that are less prevalent with Law Enforcement Agencies? While CZ is a top notch firearms maker you certainly don't see them in many duty holsters in the U.S. Europe, Asia, and the M.E. maybe, but not U.S.
Which is really a shame.
shutup&shoot
08-25-14, 06:37
I'm not going to mention brands but a CZ would serve some LEO better than what they are carrying.
And we know LE agencies always pick the best product for their forces... Like bushmaster carbines.
It would be a mistake to try to translate North American sales success by companies into a tier system.
How many international agencies use the SW's? And even glock?
Not saying they are not good pistols, just pointing out that LE agency sales are not a good measure as there is both fashion, politics, and salesmanship heavily involved.
As an aside.. Most people forget the PPQ is just a trigger variant of the P99, which has wide use internationally for decades.
There is more difference between some of the Glock platform than P99/PPQ. Same for majority of the CZ's in use.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Haven't heard of it before, what is it about?
The show was cancelled. Couldn't have been that good. I have the opinion that if the Expendables use it, it must be good, right?
Tzintzuntzan
08-25-14, 11:49
The show was cancelled. Couldn't have been that good. I have the opinion that if the Expendables use it, it must be good, right?
Never watched those movies, in all honesty I thought they looked a bit cheesy and overblown. The last time I watched action movies was when my dad and I sat on the couch and played Steven Seagal DVDs.
MountainRaven
08-25-14, 12:51
The show was cancelled. Couldn't have been that good. I have the opinion that if the Expendables use it, it must be good, right?
Pfft.
James Bond vets all my handgun purchases. Former Royal Navy, SBS, and Mi-6 operative? Not a lot of guys can top that resume. And over fifty years in the field, too!
This thread went downhill fast....
Alpha Sierra
08-25-14, 13:23
This thread went downhill fast....
Don't they all?
wildcard600
08-25-14, 15:29
throw away that nickle plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock....
Pfft.
James Bond vets all my handgun purchases. Former Royal Navy, SBS, and Mi-6 operative? Not a lot of guys can top that resume. And over fifty years in the field, too!
But....he's British. His handgun choice used to be a Beretta .32 auto. Before that I think it was a .25 auto of some sort. Then the Walther PPK, and then the p99 correct?
But....he's British. His handgun choice used to be a Beretta .32 auto. Before that I think it was a .25 auto of some sort. Then the Walther PPK, and then the p99 correct?
Nope. Beretta 418 (6.35mm Browning), then PPK (7.65 Browning), then P99 (9x19), then PPK (9x17 Browning).
Tzintzuntzan
08-26-14, 12:58
Nope. Beretta 418 (6.35mm Browning), then PPK (7.65 Browning), then P99 (9x19), then PPK (9x17 Browning).
Are we talking about the books or the movies?
I've had poor luck with Taurus products, especially handguns and would delete it from any list of seriously considered self defense handguns. My opinion is that those who own and like them don't shoot them much. I've noticed that those shooters who first trained with striker fired pistols dislike using sa/da handguns and that those who first trained with the older system and then transitioned to striker fired pistols tend to be comfortable using either. I realize that I just made a sweeping generalization but hold to it. I prefer the sa/da system for a night stand or sock drawer pistol. The reason is that it can be placed where you want it and be fully loaded without requiring being sheathed in a holster or case. Oddly, a holstered Glock rest on my night stand.
Alpha Sierra
08-26-14, 20:52
I'm not going to mention brands but a CZ would serve some LEO better than what they are carrying.
+1
The P-07 and P-09 put the G19 and G17 to shame. The 75 is a work of art and still viable as a tier 1 pistol to this day.
I have it from someone who would CERTAINLY know that HK makes the very best pistols and are the only manufacturer who is not experiencing quality issues.
Carry on.
LOL
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
This thread is really making me want to check out a CZ now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the CZ-75 based on the browning HP?
Alpha Sierra
08-27-14, 17:11
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the CZ-75 based on the browning HP?
Loosely
I have had a P-07 for about a month now and will never go back to Glocks, or any SF pistol for that matter.
Yesterday I picked up a 75BD (decocker model) and just came back from shooting it. Why in the hell did I wait for so long to try this gun out?
Loosely
I have had a P-07 for about a month now and will never go back to Glocks, or any SF pistol for that matter.
Yesterday I picked up a 75BD (decocker model) and just came back from shooting it. Why in the hell did I wait for so long to try this gun out?
Damn. And I just found out there are Beretta 92G's coming out soon for a limited time. My wallet hurts.
Glock or M&P?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=p.811235928897585&type=1&theater
WickedWillis
08-28-14, 10:32
Glock or M&P?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=811235928897585&set=p.811235928897585&type=1&theater
Who the hell is that guy?
Who the hell is that guy?
Someone who stands to lose business and feels a bit threatened by HK? He modifies Glocks and M&PS for a living I think.
WickedWillis
08-28-14, 11:16
Someone who stands to lose business and feels a bit threatened by HK? He modifies Glocks and M&PS for a living I think.
Okay so I wasn't the only one who thought he sounded incredibly bitter about the VP9.
birdkiller
08-28-14, 12:25
David Bowie has a pretty solid history of making good guns better. Not that he is the end-all master of polymer guns, but I wouldn't completely discredit what he says. LAV even has a signature package that Mr. Bowie does to HK P30s, so I'm sure he could work his magic on a VP9 too. So if anything he could be losing customers saying that.
Okay so I wasn't the only one who thought he sounded incredibly bitter about the VP9.
I thought it was transparent disgust at the complexity, certain attributes of small parts and the narrow slide that precludes optimal RMR mounting.
WickedWillis
08-28-14, 14:14
I thought it was transparent disgust at the complexity, certain attributes of small parts and the narrow slide that precludes optimal RMR mounting.
I guess if you claim to be at the top of your game though, you should embrace the challenge in this. Or use it as a positive to give your business the edge over others because you do things they can't or don't know how. It was borderline a fanboy rant to me, but maybe I took it completely the wrong way.
I guess if you claim to be at the top of your game though, you should embrace the challenge in this. Or use it as a positive to give your business the edge over others because you do things they can't or don't know how. It was borderline a fanboy rant to me, but maybe I took it completely the wrong way.
Could be. I only know of him by reputation as one of the early pioneers of the MRDS on a fighting pistol concept. It might be a little ironic for a VP9 thread here to throw "fanboy" around at others though. ;)
David Bowie has a pretty solid history of making good guns better. Not that he is the end-all master of polymer guns, but I wouldn't completely discredit what he says. LAV even has a signature package that Mr. Bowie does to HK P30s, so I'm sure he could work his magic on a VP9 too. So if anything he could be losing customers saying that.
I take it this is not the singer David Bowie. That'd just be...strange.
birdkiller
08-28-14, 16:13
I take it this is not the singer David Bowie. That'd just be...strange.
Hah, no. This is David Bowie from Bowie Tactical Concepts. In addition to helping pioneer MRDS on fighting guns like mentioned above, he is also an instructor for TDI.
As far as the VP9 goes, I have nothing to add to that. LAV has been endorsing it, Bowie doesn't like it. I guess bottom line is what works for you.
For the sake of this thread:
I can't see how you can rank stock pistols like Glocks, M&P, HK, etc. as tier one. When I think "tier one", I'm thinking custom work like from BTC, Boresight, and ATEi, not just an average production gun. But maybe I'm missing the concept.
Alpha Sierra
08-28-14, 16:42
The entire concept of tiers is stupid and contrived. It's either a quality pistol or it isn't.
"Tiers". Sweet.
I don't get it.
The entire concept of tiers is stupid and contrived. It's either a quality pistol or it isn't.
Not at all. Some people are not going to shoot a lot and not spend the $ on a hard use gun. There are a lot of alright, low cost options that are not complete crap that are good options for them. Reliable, but not super durable and no support is fine so they can save cigarette money. You and I might think its retarded, but it's reality for a lot of folks. Tiers exist in nearly everything, as everyone has unique requirements.
If it were true, what would be the quantified spec that separates quality from crap? You can make one for yourself, but it's not across the board.
Because without definition of what makes a firearm a "Tier 1/2/3/4" it's a worthless discussion and sounds like a bunch of mall ninjas. And you say tiers exist yet everyone has unique requirements... kind of hard to classify much of anything then. IMO.
I have weapons I'll own and weapons I won't. And it depends on what I want them to do. None of it fits in an undefined tactical sounding Tier system.
You can do that. Duty Ready is how I define it.
With or without modification(s)?
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-29-14, 00:06
Top Tier -In my mind :
HK
Walther
Beretta
1st/2nd tier (basically whether you are lucky and get a problem-free gun)
Glock
M&P
3rd tier
Sig
CZ
Steyr
4th Tier
Taurus
Kahr
Ruger
Alpha Sierra
08-29-14, 04:51
what would be the quantified spec that separates quality from crap? You can make one for yourself, but it's not across the board.
Exactly. I am more than capable of defining the quality standard that meets my needs. I neither want nor need one that is "across the board". The only people who want one either are incapable of discriminating for themselves, or want to feel smug about where their pet brands sit in the "tier".
Like someone else said, the whole concept is mall ninja-ish.
What do you consider the requirements for a Tier 1 vs Tier 2 pistol?
I have owned pistols from Glock, Walther, S&W M&P, FN, HK, Sig, Beretta, and Taurus, and shot many of these in multiple advanced pistol classes in rough conditions. Out of the pistols I've owned and shot, the only ones that I've had issues with are the Taurus and the Beretta. I've shot, but never owned a CZ, but heard great things about them. After shooting and owning many pistols, my daily carry gun and go-to pistol is the Walther PPQ 9mm.
In my opinion, Tier 1 and Tier 2 pistols are as follows: And this is based on reliability, functionality, and accuracy
Tier 1 (not in any particular order)
- HK
- Glock
- M&P
- Walther
- FN
- Sig (mainly the older ones)
- CZ (although I haven't shot this one extensively)
Tier 2
- Taurus
- Beretta
- Springfield XD
- Ruger
- Kahr
- Keltec
Tier 3
- Highpoint
i mostly agree with this version of a list of "teirs" except for the m&p. i only have moderate personal experience with them, but nc highway patrol has had widespread problems with the m&p .357 that smith & wesson tells them there's nothing can be done about, and are getting rid of them (maybe already have, haven't asked any of the troopers about it in a while.) another agency in my county has the m&p .45 and consistently have less reliable range days with them than they did with the hk 45, and have had talks about going back. they went with the m&p due to some ridiculously low cost, i don't recall the numbers, but they beat glock by close to $100 a gun. i've always had glocks as duty weapons, 17, and now 21. i can't say too much bad about them, but i have had... few and far between... a few light primer strikes. the ammo was ranger-t on all of them. cz is my choice for daily carry off duty, normally my p-01... the others are full size, but really, the 75b isn't that bad as it's not really a bulky gun. i haven't had any malfunctions that were the fault of the gun, and i started buying them in 2008. the one malfunction i have had (happened a couple of times) was flared remington umc rounds that kept my p-01 out of battery by about 1/8"
i don't have any experience with post ron cohen sig, so i can't say from personal experience what the difference is, but i hear a lot of sig guys complain about qc now, compared to years ago.
I want a striker fired pistol with a thumb safety that integrates a crimson trace laser grip. That pretty much narrows it down to the M&P. I've shot the 9 & 40 a bit in both fs & c without any problems. They may not be first tier, but can be tweaked. I would consider the old west german sigs to be top tier.
acaixguard
08-29-14, 06:42
I want a striker fired pistol with a thumb safety that integrates a crimson trace laser grip. That pretty much narrows it down to the M&P.
Will the CTC lasergrip for the M&P work if it has a thumb safety?
The right side ts has to be cut off, jut leaving the left side.
Whatever your feelings about the Beretta 92 series, their overall QC seems to be pretty good.
Top Tier -In my mind :
HK
Walther
Beretta
1st/2nd tier (basically whether you are lucky and get a problem-free gun)
Glock
M&P
3rd tier
Sig
CZ
Steyr
4th Tier
Taurus
Kahr
Ruger
Sig, 3rd tier? No way. I understand some people complaining of problems with newer produced ones, but I've never had one problem with any of mine. When you take apart a sig and look at the parts, they scream quality. At least imho
WickedWillis
08-29-14, 10:16
Sig, 3rd tier? No way. I understand some people complaining of problems with newer produced ones, but I've never had one problem with any of mine. When you take apart a sig and look at the parts, they scream quality. At least imho
Yeah I agree. Sigs are pretty disliked on this forum overall and I just don't see it. Every Sig I have owned or fired has been superb to any Glock or M&P especially in the out of the box accuracy department. I also think like I said earlier in the thread that CZ is right up there with some of the nicest handguns out there.
Top Tier -In my mind :
HK
Walther
Beretta
1st/2nd tier (basically whether you are lucky and get a problem-free gun)
Glock
M&P
3rd tier
Sig
CZ
Steyr
4th Tier
Taurus
Kahr
Ruger
No quibbles with most of this, but a couple questions:
* When you put CZ in 3rd tier, are you saying CZ collectively for all their pistols you've experienced? Given their worldwide use for LE/mil, and especially their growing market share and reputation for quality and accuracy, I'm wondering about that. Clearly they're not as POPULAR for service/duty/ccw use here in the US as others. But I'm wondering if that actually makes them 3rd tier, or just less known and used here.
* Kahr as 4th tier, really? I certainly wouldn't put them as a 1st tier option given the higher frequency of reliability issues that are almost inherent in subcompact centerfire pistols. But what is your thinking on 4th tier, have you had bad results with yours?
No quibbles with most of this, but a couple questions:
* When you put CZ in 3rd tier, are you saying CZ collectively for all their pistols you've experienced? Given their worldwide use for LE/mil, and especially their growing market share and reputation for quality and accuracy, I'm wondering about that. Clearly they're not as POPULAR for service/duty/ccw use here in the US as others. But I'm wondering if that actually makes them 3rd tier, or just less known and used here.
* Kahr as 4th tier, really? I certainly wouldn't put them as a 1st tier option...
That's what makes this tier thing silly... Entire mfgs (kahr, cz) vs single pistols (m&p).... So do I include the triple digit series smith problem pistols in the mix? SW99?
Are the Kahrs just P9, P40,P45? Or also include the cheaper and cruder models at half the price?
I know its just peoples opinions, but it will be very diffcult to get agreement
I recall speaking face to face with Hackathorn and he stated that CZs are nice pistols but won't stand up to "a thousand to fifteen hundred rounds per month" usage that I was doing at the time.
Sig uses a lot of MIM in the fire control group and extractor. The quality of said parts have been iffy in the recent past.
We are all aware of late model Glocks...
M&Ps do not appear to be as durable as HK and Glock. Period.
The others I have only a passing interest in or a strong curiosity. Give me a forged framed, cryogenically treated, melonited and WDLC coated semi-custom 1911 with a single-sided safety and I know personally that it can be run "one thousand to fifteen hundred rounds" of drills and competition per month for several years.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
acaixguard
08-29-14, 21:23
I recall speaking face to face with Hackathorn and he stated that CZs are nice pistols but won't stand up to "a thousand to fifteen hundred rounds per month" usage that I was doing at the time.
Sig uses a lot of MIM in the fire control group and extractor. The quality of said parts have been iffy in the recent past.
We are all aware of late model Glocks...
M&Ps do not appear to be as durable as HK and Glock. Period.
Just curious if this is a fairly recent convo you had with Ken?
The general consensus seems to be that newer Gen4 Glocks have a better track record. If not though, it's a simple enough fix with the Apex extractor.
2011/12 timeframe.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Alpha Sierra
08-29-14, 21:29
I recall speaking face to face with Hackathorn and he stated that CZs are nice pistols but won't stand up to "a thousand to fifteen hundred rounds per month" usage that I was doing at the time.
He should tell Angus Hobdell and Adam Tyc that. I'm sure they would like to know......
He should tell Angus Hobdell and Adam Tyc that. I'm sure they would like to know......
Not sure what they do to their "stock" pistols.
I would certainly deep cryogenically treat them and perhaps Melonite them. If so it would surely last longer and they'd still be considered stock.
Who knows?
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I recall speaking face to face with Hackathorn and he stated that CZs are nice pistols but won't stand up to "a thousand to fifteen hundred rounds per month" usage that I was doing at the time.
Sig uses a lot of MIM in the fire control group and extractor. The quality of said parts have been iffy in the recent past.
We are all aware of late model Glocks...
M&Ps do not appear to be as durable as HK and Glock. Period.
The others I have only a passing interest in or a strong curiosity. Give me a forged framed, cryogenically treated, melonited and WDLC coated semi-custom 1911 with a single-sided safety and I know personally that it can be run "one thousand to fifteen hundred rounds" of drills and competition per month for several years.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
what was his reasoning for cz not standing up to a lot of rounds? any specific models? the frames or slides aren't known for failures. slide stops, recoil springs etc. will eventually need replacement, but not any more frequently than those parts on a 1911.
Alpha Sierra
08-30-14, 04:00
I would certainly deep cryogenically treat them and perhaps Melonite them.
Yes, because applying additional metallurgical processes willy-nilly with zero knowledge of the starting microstructure and hardness is a smart idea.
I only have a couple of CZ to draw experience from but my 75 Shadow Custom has seen 10K rounds with only a trigger return spring needing replacement. Between the TRS and the slide stop, you've basically covered the weaknesses in that design. The Polycoat isn't as durable a finish as some also.
I recall CZC stating they're (CZ 75's) good for about 100K rounds without a rebuild.
A62Rambler
08-30-14, 07:07
I've been on this board for 7 years but check my post count. I read much more than I post and have learned much. The problem with tiers in any weapon type is that it misleads the people who need it most. If an HK is top tier then it's good to go out of the box? No, you still have to take it out and shoot it at least 500 rounds to know if it is a weapon that can be depended upon! I was issued a 2nd gen. Glock. The trigger return failed on the qual. range. At the time Glock would have been considered tier 1. I had a Sig Pro 2009 than never failed yet even then Sig was a 3rd tier. I don't need tiers to determine what to buy but the people who do will think that tier 1 means they can trust it without verifying. I've never thought it was a good idea to make a tier system because the people who truly understand it don't need it and the people who need it don't truly understand it! Just my input. Now I'll shut up and go back to reading.
KalashniKEV
08-30-14, 09:48
Hopefully most posters are speaking from experience and not simply brand perceptions.
Two things about this thread that I personally don't think are helpful:
1) Racking and stacking brands vs. models. A Porsche 914 is not in the same league as a Porsche 911... nor is a classic P226 in the same league as the SIG P250.
2) Separation into "Tiers" rather than best-to-worst, or what I fear is favorite-to-least-favorite. Most of the brands listed have an obvious model that I think the posters have in mind- and that's usually their standard service pistol. These have usually been wrung out in tests, have some adoption as standard issue here and there, and should be treated mostly as "prove it out and use it."
We're all a product of our experiences, and a negative one can leave a bad taste for a long time.
My 2 CZ-75's- a B and a Pre-B have both been rock solid. To date the 75B is my best performing pistol from the 25m line. My FNS has really impressed me. The M&P didn't prove out for me, and thus had to go. I wouldn't recommend it unless you rebuild the gun with Apex/ Storm Lake parts (maybe I'm totally wrong). My HK I felt was overhyped, and Beretta is just Beretta... boringly reliable with acceptable or sometimes better results, every damn time.
I recall speaking face to face with Hackathorn and he stated that CZs are nice pistols but won't stand up to "a thousand to fifteen hundred rounds per month" usage that I was doing at the time.
It would be interesting to hear more on that. For instance, was that based on his own use and testing of CZ's, which models, etc., was it based on students running them in classes, or what.
Alpha Sierra
08-30-14, 16:11
Not sure what they do to their "stock" pistols.
My P-07 is completely stock, bought on July 26 and today it rolled over the 1K mark. So far it's standing up to your bogey of 1000 rounds/month just fine......
There might be a reason why CZs (the SP-01 in particular) are extremely popular among serious USPSA Production shooters (who burn through ammo even faster than you) and its IPSC equivalent.
My P-07 is completely stock, bought on July 26 and today it rolled over the 1K mark. So far it's standing up to your bogey of 1000 rounds/month just fine...
I'll bite. You wish to make this thread about YOU.
My bogey" was none other than Ken Hackathorn. Please read more carefully. HE stated that they'd not survive that. I don't own one and probably never will.
So you've got 1,000 rounds thru it in one month. Great. It's a good start. You'll notice that I mentioned also that it was for months on end. In my case it was for three years. You have some ways to go.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
It would be interesting to hear more on that. For instance, was that based on his own use and testing of CZ's, which models, etc., was it based on students running them in classes, or what.
I agree. I did not think to ask. I know he's done more than I'm ever likely to ever do firearm-related and he's seen far more than I will ever see.
They seem like decent pistols (I don't care for the trigger and the slide is very difficult to grasp compared to, say, a 1911 or Glock) and I have also heard comments that they were well made. I've not run one so I'm merely passing what I got from someone who would be closer to the truth of the matter as I'm unfamiliar with them.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
The only way I can see classifying LEO service pistols into two tiers, would be reliable and unreliable. User features on most pistols do not fit the physical attributes of all of the rank and file with LE agencies. User features don't always fit a particular agencies' philosophy either.
Reliable vs. Unreliable. It either works or it doesn't.
Me and a couple friends of mine had a discussion one time about tiering various handguns and what we would consider Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, ect, and I broke things down this way. If I were to ever hit the lottery for a couple hundred million, we'd do a comprehensive break down of various models ranking them based on various things from accuracy to reliability, doing a full several K function test on a 5-10 model sample, full nine yard break testing with preset standards by which the handguns would need to meet, accuracy(measured from a mechanical rest as well from various shooters of known ability at various distances out to 100 meters), ability to feed all common ammo, mean failure rate, reliability, ect. Accessories was one point as well, but again became a bit of a sticky situation if a new design was brought in. But, the idea was to leave as much personal opinion out of the testing as possible, and yes basically make a chart that was as bias free as possible. Price would also be a factor, a gun that retails for $450 but requires another $150 to bring up to spec is no better deal than a gun that is $600 retail and ready to run out of the box for example.
My basic point was that the top tier would be for handguns that out of the box could be with high certainty be expected to be "duty" ready. Basically meaning that the only thing you'd have to provide would be a quality holster and at most 1 extra magazine to bring the min total of mags up to 3(One in the gun, two reloads), everything else would be useable, functional, and durable, from sights, to finish, to controls, ect with no list of addons modifications to the firearms to make it run. The next tier down would be guns that were mostly functional out of the box, but required $50-100 or less of work, to bring them up to spec to be useable, (Glock's factory plastic placeholders for example). Tier three was anything that required gunsmithing out of the box or major $100+ in work to make run. Tier 4 was the shit guns or ones that failed miserably.
But until I hit the lottery it is all dreams. Not that I think it would help much, because lets face it most people choose their guns from preference anyway and most aren't going to believe their brand of choice had a **** up even if they saw it with their own eyes because they need to believe that they have the best flawless design out there. Which is a pipedream in and of itself. There is no perfect gun.
Kain, you make a very valid point. You're right, there is no perfect gun. Every gun will malfunction at some point. It's inevitable.
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