View Full Version : 2-stage triggers
Mikey Mouse
08-25-14, 16:31
does anybody out there have a DPMS 2-stage trigger or know anything about them? I have a DPMS Tac 2 that I would like to put a 2-stage on, they have theirs on sale and before I order one I would like to have some input. I don't have the bucks for a big buck trigger, so it's either theirs or the Rock River one, thanks.
steyrman13
08-25-14, 16:36
I would just stick with an alg act or Qms then. Why do you feel the need for two stages? I wouldn't skimp on a two stage trigger. It would be better to have a quality Milspec style trigger
Digital_Damage
08-25-14, 16:48
Save and go quality if you are changing out. Geissele or an older KAC would be my choice. I would not settle for less if you are going 2 stage.
If you just want a better trigger get an ALG (single stage), very good bang for the buck.
If you are really only looking at those two I have a rock river with a few thousand rounds through it. It feels great.
However there are many reports of them failing, mine has not yet, but I don't truly trust it.
I use all Giessele triggers on HD/class guns. To me an SSA is worth the money and piece of mind.
Can someone explain the benefit of a 2 stage trigger? I personally don't think there is one, but maybe I'm missing something?
Can someone explain the benefit of a 2 stage trigger? I personally don't think there is one, but maybe I'm missing something?
Go pull the trigger on an AR with a quality two stage trigger like a Geissele SSA, and you'll clearly see the difference. So much smoother and easier to control there's no comparison.
BlackWatch16
08-25-14, 18:58
We could literally write a book about the benefits and tactical advantages of trigger prep with a 2 stage trigger. Being able to "prep" the trigger through the 1st stage and wait for a perfect time to shoot is essential not only for precision/target shooting, but also for real world applications, whether you are standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, under stress or not. I know that many folks will chime in with the standard "you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot" line...and that's exactly my point! When I identify a target as threat/hostile/etc, my sights are now acquired, and my finger is now on the trigger, but that doesn't mean I'm able to take the shot yet. It may be because of terrain, walking/running speed of the target, surroundings, etc, but I am waiting for the right time. When that time comes, now I need precision. I would much rather break the shot with a 2nd stage of 1.5-2.5 lbs rather than a mil-spec single stage of 6-9 lbs. And if I need to change my mind and back out of the shot, I can release the trigger back through the 1st stage. With a single stage, the correct amount of pressure applied = bang...no other options.
Now with that said, I am not a fan of many 2 stage triggers, just as mentioned above. I have never had a problem with Geissele, KAC, or LMT. However, I'm not made out of money either, so outfitting all my ARs with a G2S, SSA, or SSA-E for more precision work isn't feasible. So just as mentioned above, the ALG ACT or QMS is hands down the best option. Solid, consistent, reliable.
Lastly, the only other reason (besides price) one should stick with a single stage trigger is for a specialty "hybrid" type trigger like the S3G or SD3G, which of course are just as expensive as the high end 2 stage triggers. They are not technically a single stage, but they sure feel like it. These are made for 3 gunners and other folks who are only concerned with shooting fast so they need a short lock time but also want the consistency and reliability that Geissele offers. The Hyperfire triggers are also gaining popularity in this category, but I'm not familiar with them. Remember, 3 gunners care about accuracy, but only to an extent...not for long range. A hit is a hit so to speak. And they also don't care much about the confidence factor of being able to back out of the trigger if you should not or cannot make the shot. Again, shooting sports are different from combat/home defense. I would never pick up a carbine with a fast 3 gun type trigger when it's dark and lives are on the line.
Can someone explain the benefit of a 2 stage trigger? I personally don't think there is one, but maybe I'm missing something?
There is no benefit if you don't care about making precise shots at targets beyond point blank range. You can still jerk a good 2 stage trigger but you cannot milk a crappy trigger into being anything more than a crappy trigger.
From memory.....
1903 -Check
1917 -Check
M1 Garand -Check
M1 Carbine -Check
M14 -Check
M16 -Whoops
It isn't exactly like it is new information either....... Giessle or ALG depending on your budget in my experience.
BlackWatch16
08-25-14, 19:19
"no benefit if you don't care about making precise shots at targets beyond point blank range"
Can't be said any better than this...I'd venture to say most shooter do care.
+1 on the milking of crappy triggers line as well.
DPMS lists the 2 stage trigger pull weight at 1.75# first stage and 4.5# second stage. That just seems all wrong for even a general purpose 2 stage trigger. The weight of pull should be about 4.5# total weight for GP and 3.5# for precision in a non adjustable type. The first stage should be about 2.5# and the second 2# in a GP 2 stage. I have installed a lot of Rock River NM triggers and they are usually around 4.5# to 5#. RRA has a sale on for $108. If you are just having fun at the range and /or plinking the RRA would be a better choice.
If it is for any serious use get an ALG QMS for $45 or save up for a Geissele G2S at $165
I will echo the comments about ALG and Geissele....great products that work as intended and hold up the use. In some groups the CMC triggers are "hot" right now, but I have not tried them and I do not know if they will stand up to hard use like Geissele.
I would never run anything but Geissele or a mil-spec trigger. Both are tried-and-true.
I would definitely save up for a Geissele if I were you.
I have a Geissele SSA and SSA-E and have shot an RRA two stage. The Geissele triggers are much smoother and more crisp. Considering an RRA runs about $100 I see no reason not to wait til you can buy a Geissele. Even the G2S is supposed to be a great trigger.
BoringGuy45
08-26-14, 09:47
The Geissele SSA trigger is pretty much, IMO, the pinnacle of combat triggers: Quick for rapid, up close engagements, and crisp and light for longer range and/or precision shots. Plus, with the tight hammer spring that Geissele uses, light strikes, the most commonly cited reason for avoiding 2 stage triggers in an AR, are not an issue. The SSA is one of those few things where you can have your cake and eat it too. In terms of the philosophy behind it, as well as its functionality, I can't really think of a single disadvantage to it. The only issue is the $200+ price tag, but the Geisseles are the only triggers I would drop 200 bucks on.
I'd echo everyone else here: Get an ALG trigger if money is an issue. It's crisp, clean, everything you need, nothing you don't. When you want to upgrade to a 2-stage, save up and get a Geissele.
After personally seeing a RRA trigger go to shit in under 1k rounds, and having a local PD drop their RRA rifles because of trigger issues, I would not trust their triggers. Save up and get a Geissele G2S and dont look back.
After personally seeing a RRA trigger go to shit in under 1k rounds, and having a local PD drop their RRA rifles because of trigger issues, I would not trust their triggers. Save up and get a Geissele G2S and dont look back.
And I know people talk about the price...but with a Geissele to adds a lot to your rifle, and you will only have to buy it once...average that cost out over the years, and it isn't that much versus having to replace an inferior one, or having a failure at a crucial moment....
Jwknutson17
08-26-14, 10:02
With Geissele G2S to be had for 136ish shipped, and SSA for 178 Shipped. I see no reason not to get one. Cut out the bar tab one night, and there is the price difference between the RRA. And you got yourself a Geissele!
Jwknutson17
08-26-14, 10:05
After personally seeing a RRA trigger go to shit in under 1k rounds, and having a local PD drop their RRA rifles because of trigger issues, I would not trust their triggers. Save up and get a Geissele G2S and dont look back.
I have seen one RRA's 2 stage hammer brake in half with about 1500 rounds through it. I would assume the hardening process was overlooked/skimped on in the manufacturing..? And the guy was dead set on replacing it with the same trigger... :fie:
After reading all about them, mostly on this site, I went with a Geissele SSA in my primary rifle. I thought it was pretty nice. Wasn't sure it was completely tits like everybody thought, but I liked it.
Then I went back to shooting a regular "GI" trigger (Colt, the one I took out of my primary rifle and used to build a second rifle) and I was like...what the **** is this?! It sucked.
It will spoil you.
PS: The RRA FCG failing was mentioned above. I've seen it. Tried the round a few times, FTF every time. Put it in my rifle with the SSA...worked perfectly. I have done the same with a DPMS and then my rifle. Ammo was PPU M193 in one case and Fed LC XM855 in another. In a third case somebody shipped me rounds that failed to fire in their rifle, and 2 of 3 worked in mine but the other did not
Berserkr556
08-26-14, 12:14
Another advantage of the Geissele SSA is the margin of safety it gives you in a HD or combat situation. The SSA is the only FCG I'll use.
Mikey Mouse
08-27-14, 13:32
where did you find the Geissele for those prices?
where did you find the Geissele for those prices?
Primary Arms is having a 15% off on triggers for Labor Day.
http://www.primaryarms.com/Sale_s/5169.htm?utm_source=Homepage&utm_medium=Banner&utm_campaign=LaborDaySale
where did you find the Geissele for those prices?
Please ask in this thread
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?100661-The-Official-Where-Can-I-Get-It-Thread
Then the mods will allow me to post the best I know of, and we'll see if anybody can beat it
Thanks for the good information. I personally am comfortable using a mil-spec trigger. Not opposed to a 2-stage in the future, but I see no reason to go with one yet myself.
where did you find the Geissele for those prices?
We offer M4C member discounts on lots of products (to include Geissele). Check your PM for our discount code.
C4
Would you recommend the SSA or SSA-E for a rifle with a 1-4 optic to shoot a little farther? My other rifles have ALG's with red dots.
Thanks
Would you recommend the SSA or SSA-E for a rifle with a 1-4 optic to shoot a little farther? My other rifles have ALG's with red dots.
Thanks
I prefer the SSA, G2S and SD-C for serious work. The E models are too lite for me.
C4
SpeedRacer
08-28-14, 09:12
I prefer the SSA, G2S and SD-C for serious work. The E models are too lite for me.
C4
Agree. The SSA is plenty light enough for all but a precision rifle IMO. Also trying the Super Tricon in one of my rifles and really digging it so far.
I put the SSA-E into the AR I'm using as my "poor man's precision rifle" the one I have dedicated to using a scope on it. I really like the SSA-E extra "lightness of being" but I'm not sure I'd be completely comfortable using it on my other AR that I use in all my AR training classes, at medium to short range distances.
I put the SSA-E into the AR I'm using as my "poor man's precision rifle" the one I have dedicated to using a scope on it. I really like the SSA-E extra "lightness of being" but I'm not sure I'd be completely comfortable using it on my other AR that I use in all my AR training classes, at medium to short range distances.
I even feel like my SSA-E is a bit light for my precision rifle... I doubt I'll give it up though.
The break of SSA-E is also crisper than the SSA which I really like for a dedicated precision AR. I prefer the heavier pull of the SSA for HD and general hunting use
I have the sdc/ssa/g2s and sd3g.You really cant go wrong with geissele quality and for an all around trigger I dont think you can go wrong with the ssa/g2s setup.
jerrysimons
08-28-14, 12:39
I use SSA/SD-C for general purpose and the SD-E/SSA-E for precision dedicated builds. Another consideration for duty/defense purposes is the flat triggers are slightly further forward in the trigger guard form the curved triggers. There is less room for error if you put your finger in there before your ready to fire.
If you like single stag triggers, the CMC's are amazing, the 3.5# single-stage is crazy, talk about a hair trigger! The break is so crisp though.
jukeboxx13
08-29-14, 01:57
Thanks for the good information. I personally am comfortable using a mil-spec trigger. Not opposed to a 2-stage in the future, but I see no reason to go with one yet myself.
My "mil-spec" would fire if I reset the trigger slowly like your suppose to, so that was my reason to buy a Geissele. The milspec had around 5k rounds in it.
jukeboxx13
08-29-14, 01:57
Thanks for the good information. I personally am comfortable using a mil-spec trigger. Not opposed to a 2-stage in the future, but I see no reason to go with one yet myself.
My "mil-spec" would fire if I reset the trigger slowly like your suppose to, so that was my reason to buy a Geissele. The milspec had around 5k rounds in it.
The_War_Wagon
08-29-14, 07:00
I would never run anything but Geissele or a mil-spec trigger. Both are tried-and-true.
I would definitely save up for a Geissele if I were you.
^^^ THIS. I HAD (past tense) a RRA 2-stage trigger, but they EVENTUALLY all turn into 1-stage triggers, after enough use. With the exception of my dedicated .22LR AR, they ALL have Geissele triggers NOW.
My general purpose AR has an SSA-E.
It's light and crisp. I can jerk it when I want to and I can squeeze it when I want to.
A little more creep in the SSA does mot make it safer.
Quiet Riot
08-30-14, 06:33
Wilson Combat also makes fantastic triggers for the AR. They don't seem to get the attention they deserve.
From what I understand, the Wilson is a single stage with minimal creep. That's good for a trigger on a bolt action, but not the safest configuration for a self loading rifle, especially one that will see rough handling
From what I understand, the Wilson is a single stage with minimal creep. That's good for a trigger on a bolt action, but not the safest configuration for a self loading rifle, especially one that will see rough handling
Wilson Combat actually makes a few different trigger units.
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Trigger-Units/products/258/
I recently picked up the TTU 4lb single stage and absolutely love it. I also have a Geissele SSA-E on another rifle that I've been trying to get used to but I must say that I am partial to a single stage trigger with zero creep.
If it is for any serious use get an ALG QMS for $45 or save up for a Geissele G2S at $165
Or buy a G2S for $109.95 right now from Aim Surplus
(or $55 for an ALG ACt at Primary Arms, it's a partial step up from the QMS)
Or buy a G2S for $109.95 right now from Aim Surplus
They've been sold out since early yesterday evening. It's a dang shame I saw that e-mail too late yesterday, or I'd had a couple of hundred dollars less in my pocket for sure! Best deal I've ever seen for a G2S.
They've been sold out since early yesterday evening. It's a dang shame I saw that e-mail too late yesterday, or I'd had a couple of hundred dollars less in my pocket for sure! Best deal I've ever seen for a G2S.
They are available at that price as a "pre order" now.
They are available at that price as a "pre order" now.
Dang I missed that. Thanks for pointing it out!!!
Son of a mother! I missed the deal too. There are a few lucky dudes out there right now.
Quiet Riot
08-31-14, 15:20
From what I understand, the Wilson is a single stage with minimal creep. That's good for a trigger on a bolt action, but not the safest configuration for a self loading rifle, especially one that will see rough handling
The Wilson TTU comes in single stage and two stage variants. All TTUs have a half-cock notch to catch the hammer in the event of a severe enough jolt to trip the trigger, meeting or exceeding all military specs for drop safety. In fact, Wilson Combat claims that the TTU is the "safest AR trigger on the market" due to this feature, and I have yet to see them called on it.
The TTU MIL/LE is their single stage trigger set to about 5.5lbs, not unlike the light end of single stage mil spec triggers or triggers like the ALG ACT, neither of which have the half-cock safety feature.
However, since the OP was asking about two stage triggers, those are the TTUs to which I was referring. They offer a 4# match trigger or a 5# Paul Howe edition two stage duty trigger, and both of them are worthy of consideration if we're upselling him to a $200+ trigger.
The half cock notch makes me feel better about the single stage Wilson.
While the standard single stage AR triggers don't have a half cock notch, they do have a long sear engagement (which is why they have so much creep) to prevent it from releasing the hammer if the rifle gets banged around
Berserkr556
08-31-14, 17:24
A little more creep in the SSA does mot make it safer.
Yes it does and Mr. Geissele, many knowledgeable members here as well as SpecOps folks who use them will set you straight. I'm not going to argue with you because you're wrong.
REdruM0351
08-31-14, 17:48
Geissele, 'nuff said.
This the SSA, SSSAE, and SDE are all amazing.
ridgerunner70
09-06-14, 13:06
For you guys that has used the SSA and the G2S triggers; is there much difference in the two triggers? The weights on first stage is 2.5# and the 2nd stage is 2# for both triggers, but other than the price the information provided they seen to be very close in description.
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I have a G2S and an SSA-E, but they aren't as comparable. I remember reading a claim that the G2S and SSA are supposed to feel identical, but that the G2S was made using a different manufacturing process which is responsible for the lower cost. Of course, that could be BS.
For you guys that has used the SSA and the G2S triggers; is there much difference in the two triggers? The weights on first stage is 2.5# and the 2nd stage is 2# for both triggers, but other than the price the information provided they seen to be very close in description.
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I'm curios about this also. I have an SD-E and am very pleased, but I'd probably buy a couple of the G2S if they have a very similar feel and reliability.
I have a G2S and an SSA-E, but they aren't as comparable. I remember reading a claim that the G2S and SSA are supposed to feel identical, but that the G2S was made using a different manufacturing process which is responsible for the lower cost. Of course, that could be BS.
Can you quantify that? Please explain.
I have a SSA and two G2S's. The ssa is a much easier install. The g2s has shims that are kind of a pain. That being said, I cant tell them apart when shooting.
Can you quantify that? Please explain.The SSA-E has a lighter pull and is a little crisper. I haven't shot an SSA so I can't say how it feels.
As far as manufacturing process, I don't recall what the supposed difference is.
sdelam, are you sure the G2S has shims? I don't remember any on mine.
Your right, they arn't shims. I'm thinking of the retainer spring thingys. Lost one right off the bat. Glad it came with extra.
dramabeats
09-06-14, 16:26
Your right, they arn't shims. I'm thinking of the retainer spring thingys. Lost one right off the bat. Glad it came with extra.
it's not difficult, you literally just stick it on the hammer and install as normal.
danattyfatty
09-06-14, 16:27
Can you quantify that? Please explain.
The SSA-E has a lighter pull and is a little crisper. I haven't shot an SSA so I can't say how it feels.
As far as manufacturing process, I don't recall what the supposed difference is.
sdelam, are you sure the G2S has shims? I don't remember any on mine.
From Geissele's site:
http://geissele.com/geissele-2-stage-trigger.html
Apparently the G2S is only spot checked for MP. The G2S also has a different way of holding the hammer pin in place.
midSCarolina
09-06-14, 16:36
I have a G2S and an SSA-E, but they aren't as comparable. I remember reading a claim that the G2S and SSA are supposed to feel identical, but that the G2S was made using a different manufacturing process which is responsible for the lower cost. Of course, that could be BS.
I don't know if it is just me but I don't think the G2S and SSA feel identical. I thought that the AAC that my cousin had was supposed to have an SSA in it and I remember using it and thinking the trigger didn't feel as good as my SSAs. Maybe it was a fluke thing but I thought what I was using was an SSA and immediately thought something was off with it. Thought that until a few weeks ago when I found out it was an G2S. Still feels good, just not quite as clean. Might just be me though.
I was under the impression that these two triggers are the same, only difference is how they are installed? Ssa installs like a mil spec trigger and the g2s use some sort of clip and doesn't have markings whatsoever to keep cost down.
ridgerunner70
09-06-14, 18:25
I was under the impression that these two triggers are the same, only difference is how they are installed? Ssa installs like a mil spec trigger and the g2s use some sort of clip and doesn't have markings whatsoever to keep cost down.
I guess I should have spent the extra $30 bucks for the SSA then.
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I think that the Geissele SD-E is outstanding. It is light and crisp and worthy of consideration in any conversation on 2 stage triggers. While I enjoy the SSA the SD-E is my preference.
I thought about saving the extra cash for the g2s but for piece of mind and the install I went with the ssa and don't regret it
The SSA uses Geisselle pins which are slightly larger and have a tighter fit. The G2S uses standard pins and a standard fit and the feel is slightly "mushier"
ridgerunner70
09-06-14, 21:06
The SSA uses Geisselle pins which are slightly larger and have a tighter fit. The G2S uses standard pins and a standard fit and the feel is slightly "mushier"
Will I be able to use my pins out of my DD trigger?
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Will I be able to use my pins out of my DD trigger?
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To the best of my knowledge, yes. But I'd contact Geissele and find out for certain
Jakedasnake
09-07-14, 00:39
We offer M4C member discounts on lots of products (to include Geissele). Check your PM for our discount code.
C4
I'd like that discount code as well please.
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