View Full Version : Something is rotten in the state of ... (PD's lose loads of military-issues weapons)
How did America's police departments lose loads of military-issued weapons?
http://fusion.net/leadership/story/americas-police-departments-lose-loads-military-issued-weapons-984250
"...184 state and local police departments have been suspended from the Pentagon's "1033 program" for missing weapons or failure to comply with other guidelines. We uncovered a pattern of missing M14 and M16 assault rifles across the country, as well as instances of missing .45-caliber pistols, shotguns and 2 cases of missing Humvee vehicles."
This is rather alarming in my opinion.
Yet the lowly US Citizen Peasant shouldn't be trusted with Semi Automatic "Assault" Rifles.....
Yet the lowly US Citizen Peasant shouldn't be trusted with Semi Automatic "Assault" Rifles.....
Who's opinion is that? Would it be that of the Federal Government? The same folks handing out the weapons? The same folks that some are so proud to work for???? Is that who thinks "the lowly US citizen peasant shouldn't be trusted with semi automatic "assault" rifles"?????
And P.S. the sensationalist article link, doesn't even work.
Who's opinion is that? Would it be that of the Federal Government? The same folks handing out the weapons? The same folks that some are so proud to work for???? Is that who thinks "the lowly US citizen peasant shouldn't be trusted with semi automatic "assault" rifles"?????
And P.S. the sensationalist article link, doesn't even work.
My Comment is Directed towards any and all of the Following (Individuals included, sometimes in Official Capacity or not...who have openly expressed said sentiment): The Executive Branch, The Legistaltive Branch, The Judicial Branch, All the 3 Letter Federal Agencies, the Military, All Levels of LE, The News Media, Groups such as Moms Demand Action, and any group that has any Power and/or Persuasion & Influence over the American People... that have expressed that Only LE Personnel should be able to own "Military Grade Weaponry" as if somehow having a Badge or an Official Mushroom Stamp of Approval somehow makes one Qualified in Possessing and Handling said Arms.
If you don't resemble my remark, then I am not talking about you.
TriviaMonster
08-27-14, 20:05
How many Humvees in a case?
Who's opinion is that? Would it be that of the Federal Government? The same folks handing out the weapons? The same folks that some are so proud to work for???? Is that who thinks "the lowly US citizen peasant shouldn't be trusted with semi automatic "assault" rifles"?????
And P.S. the sensationalist article link, doesn't even work.
It works for me, and it is very far from sensationalism...
And P.S. the sensationalist article link, doesn't even work.
Worked fine for me,
Haunting images of local police officials using military-issued equipment to quell protests in Ferguson, Missouri, have raised new concerns about the Pentagon's controversial program to equip local and state police departments with military surplus weaponry.
The program, now under White House review, has been plagued by messy bookkeeping, bureaucratic confusion and scores of missing weapons.
Fusion has learned that 184 state and local police departments have been suspended from the Pentagon's "1033 program" for missing weapons or failure to comply with other guidelines. We uncovered a pattern of missing M14 and M16 assault rifles across the country, as well as instances of missing .45-caliber pistols, shotguns and 2 cases of missing Humvee vehicles.
"[The program] is obviously very sloppy, and it's another reason that Congress needs to revisit this promptly," said Tim Lynch, director of the CATO Institute's project on criminal justice. "We don't know where these weapons are going, whether they are really lost, or whether there is corruption involved."
More troubling yet is the possibility that some of the missing weapons, which were given to local police departments as part of a decades' old government program to equip cops for the wars on terrorism and drugs, are actually being sold on the black market, Lynch said.
"That uncertainty is very unsettling," he told Fusion.
There is no necessity for LEO to have access to such weapons, its been a classic example of "stoking irrational public fears to create, then feed a need, that has never existed! Its so very simple, exactly how would such arms have made a bit of difference to what occurred on 9/11? Thats a great big goose egg, as in none! Ditto for the utterly ridiculous war on drugs, which has done nothing but mutate little LE agencies into private armies for a crop of the very worst freely elected political leaders in modern world history. I watched in absolute horror as the douche bags linked to that Ferguson PD committed felony after felony, aiming select fire weapons directly upon peaceful, congregating American citizens, without any provocation to have done so whatsoever!
I have superb instincts for such things, and mine are telling me that the arms race between American LE and its imagination is over! It has been completely inappropriate from the very beginning....I have no problem with the pistols, but the select fire weapons and military hardware, including drones need to be taken away from them, period!
Link is up and working on my end.
How is it Sensationalism J-Dub? Please Explain.
It does actually worry the American People, when "Weapons of War", go missing, courtesy of Taxpayer Dollars.
So, We the People, pay for said Gear and Equipment, that we ourselves are not freely allowed to own (maybe in some instances, albeit with Caveats and Restricitions... the 2nd does say No Infrigement Correct?).... and then this stuff starts going missing, it does make one wonder just Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is going on.
Sorry, call me Cynical or what ever you'd like, but with the Federal Gov. spearheading this 1033 Program (remember: the same Gov. who gave the Cartel Automatic "weapons of war" and tried to make it look like it was gunshops and american citizens fault...the same Gov. who let 4 Americans be Slaughtered in Benghazi and then had it covered up and even lied to say it was an American Cartoonists Fault... the same Gov. who funded and equipped ISIS so that they could go on a Rampage and start Slaughtering tons of Innocent Men, Women, and Children... etc.), I am actually a little Concerned.
Addendum: this one Commenter of the Article has a clue.... "Actually when it come to weapons there is no normal for lost or missing. The acceptable number for unaccounted weapons is 0. Just ask any FFL when the BATF comes around to check. Certainly we can expect the police to meet the same standards as the private sector."
Rhetorical Question: Any clue what happens when gear goes missing from the Armory on the .Mil side of things?
MorphCross
08-27-14, 20:44
Cato was the group bringing the issue up, I would have expected it to be the GAO, but considering the arms/equipment had been divested in the correct manner to the departments it isn't of any concern to the GAO. At least the Pentagon is taking a reactive approach by telling those departments "no more for you!"
Wouldn't you hate to be the managing officer of a prison motor-pool that lost a military Humvee?
Moose-Knuckle
08-27-14, 21:03
The issue I have with the article is it is trying to tie in the events in Ferguson, MO. to the DoD's 1033 Program.
Haunting images of local police officials using military-issued equipment to quell protests in Ferguson, Missouri, have raised new concerns about the Pentagon's controversial program to equip local and state police departments with military surplus weaponry.
The very image they have on the story cover is a St. Louis SWAT member armed a semi-automatic RRA mid-length carbine. No M16's, M14's or 1911's were in any of the pics that I have seen of the race riot in MO. No HUMVEEs or MRAPs either, saw a couple of Lenco Bear Cats which are LE specific.
As for the other agencies that reveived firearms, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet they do not have the funding to purchase their officers/SWAT members ARs so they qualify for the 1033 Program. Better to get a beat up M16A1 than nothing but your sidearm if the need were to arise. I think it will be found these "missing" arms were stolen and sold for profit.
What this article conveniently leaves out is the fact that as of 1/1/2014, the government totally changed the way they track these weapons.
We used to have a paper with all the serial numbers of the .gov weapons listed signed by the Chief or Sheriff and then the armorer had to also sign that paper when the numbers were checked. It was a super stupid system that was easy to falsify.
Now, you have to take digital photos of the weapons and their serial numbers and send them to a .gov email.
I am sure that there are some missing weapons. When there are so many out there, it's going to happen. However, once the departments adhere to the new system, more of these weapons will be accounted for.
My department has 3 weapons from this program. I can't imagine what departments like Philly are doing when they have hundreds of them.
"But the rush to arm America’s police departments made oversight difficult. Grant programs overlapped. Money often flowed to state governments first before arriving in local police departments, making it hard to track. In 2009, auditors cited examples of state governments that could not verify what equipment local authorities had bought."
The above quote is from a linked article within the now working link posted in the OP. Pretty interesting that Fusion takes the word of the NY Times in one breath, but over looks the fact that the NY Times pretty openly states, the U.S. Govt doesn't even know to track what they've handed out.
Secondly, if you actually read through the bibliography of "missing guns", there are some gems they use to boost numbers. How about a weapon stolen from an Officer's home....really? That's the Dept's fault? I would venture to guess that 99.99% of the weapons that are considered "missing" were traded in, since most of the M16's, M15's, and M14's have been done away with since they are older than dirt. Also it would be nice if they actually cited/linked to the documents where this information was provided.
But hey, I wish the Fed's weren't given Police anything, that way people could find something else to bitch about. Like their uniforms not being made of wool, no bus driver hats, and scary sunglasses.
Now everyone show off their chest rigs and gear bombed AR's...you know the ones the scary police cant have...cause its too scary!!!!
Rhetorical Question: Any clue what happens when gear goes missing from the Armory on the .Mil side of things?
Duh! The officers can't go home at night if they're locked down in their barracks!
What this article conveniently leaves out is the fact that as of 1/1/2014, the government totally changed the way they track these weapons.
We used to have a paper with all the serial numbers of the .gov weapons listed signed by the Chief or Sheriff and then the armorer had to also sign that paper when the numbers were checked. It was a super stupid system that was easy to falsify.
Now, you have to take digital photos of the weapons and their serial numbers and send them to a .gov email.
I am sure that there are some missing weapons. When there are so many out there, it's going to happen. However, once the departments adhere to the new system, more of these weapons will be accounted for.
My department has 3 weapons from this program. I can't imagine what departments like Philly are doing when they have hundreds of them.
We just within the last few months went through the collection and photographing of all these weapons (and we do have hundreds issued). All accounted for as far as I know.
Even for larger departments with bigger budgets, it is the most cost effective means to equip officers with the additional capabilities a rifle affords. For those that cry foul regarding officers getting select fire weapons when the rest of the citizenry is prohibited from them, ours as well as every agency I have contact with converts them to semi auto only. The only units with select (burst) fire capability are tactical units, and their rifles/SBRs are agency purchased. They also have to be separately qualified on by the officers.
How many Humvees in a case?
Ha! That's how I read it the first time too & had to read it again.
Truth be told, full auto is not very useful in LE/CQB work. I have taken I think 6 classes with my issued M16 and I have never used full auto.
I agree with the statement that it is the cost effectiveness not the full auto capability LE has these weapons.
There have been several threads on militarization and what cops may or may not need. Best hope for this one is to keep it about the specified events, losses, and accountability within the program.
Food for thought... Several m4c members have significant LESO/1033 involvement at various levels. Who knows what could be learned if the signal:noise is preserved.
Truth be told, full auto is not very useful in LE/CQB work. I have taken I think 6 classes with my issued M16 and I have never used full auto.
I agree with the statement that it is the cost effectiveness not the full auto capability LE has these weapons.
I saw a 1033 16 here that had the auto sear removed. A cop's son was running it in a class.
Eurodriver
08-28-14, 09:50
I'm just glad that I finally agree with Obama on something.
1033 should've been instituted in the first place. We never would've had billions of dollars in excess equipment if we never got involved in these stupid wars to begin with.
It's like a revolving door for the military to just keep on spending money. Build thousands of MRAPs and Humvees, give to PD, build more vehicles, give to PD, build more...
So are we saying that as long as departments have access to cost effective equipment we shouldn't give a crap if they are lost, stolen, sold or otherwise unaccounted for. We shouldn't worry that our tax dollars are being pisses away in a newer way??
Ignoring all the militarization and Fergudishi crap my take away and concern from the article is that we may have unaccounted weapons and tax payer funded equipment. I have no issue with people looking into what was paid for out of MY wallet and where it's at. If someone fished the numbers and defrauded me they should go to jail. If someone lost guns and didn't report it they should be fired. If someone sold guns on the BM they should go to jail. People in government need to be held accountable just like everyone else.
Moose-Knuckle
08-28-14, 12:30
We never would've had billions of dollars in excess equipment if we never got involved in these stupid wars to begin with.
It's like a revolving door for the military to just keep on spending money.
Ike's Warning Of Military Expansion, 50 Years Later
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-military-expansion-50-years-later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWiIYW_fBfY
It's like a revolving door for the military to just keep on spending money. Build thousands of MRAPs and Humvees, give to PD, build more vehicles, give to PD, build more...
Better on Defense than wasted on idiotic social programs. I run my house the way I'd run the Country. I don't give money to useless fukks on the side of the freeway and perpetuate their dependency.
I put it in excessive ammo and weapon spending. ;)
Eurodriver
08-28-14, 13:18
Better on Defense than wasted on idiotic social programs. I run my house the way I'd run the Country. I don't give money to useless fukks on the side of the freeway and perpetuate their dependency.
I put it in excessive ammo and weapon spending. ;)
True. What am I talking about? We all know that the second DoD budgets get slashed all that money is going to SS and Medicare/caid anyway. Might as well use the $$$ to keep us ahead of the Chinese and Russians.
There's no way the Feds are going to cut spending and stop stealing so much of our money at gunpoint. However, if local PDs had to pay DoD cost for these armored vehicles then there would be a hell of a lot less of them on our streets.
There's no way the Feds are going to cut spending and stop stealing so much of our money at gunpoint. However, if local PDs had to pay DoD cost for these armored vehicles then there would be a hell of a lot less of them on our streets.
That's true.
I saw a 1033 16 here that had the auto sear removed. A cop's son was running it in a class.
I have a problem with that particular scenario. If it's a 1033 weapon, FA neutered or not, and is used by the cop himself in a class (with his department's permission) so he can hone his skills, okay. But his son has no damn business using it in a class. It is a .gov giveaway to a police department, not his kid. This begins to border on lackadaisical accountability.
"Where is the M-16 we issued you?"
"Oh, my son is using it this weekend at a Pat Rogers class". WRONG freaking answer!!!
ETA: if the cop was taking the class too, it isn't as cut-and-dry. However, if he just gave it to the kid for the weekend then NO-GO!
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