View Full Version : AR-15's in the middle east
Have any of you noticed in news photos and videos in Iraq that the "bad guys" are in posession of a large amount of M-16/M-4's? It struck me a few months ago and even another friend commented to me "have you noticed those guys seem to have a large amount of the black rifle?" Normally, it is 100% AK when you see visions from this part of the world, but seeing an AR in their hands is pretty obvious (to us that know the differance between an AR and an AK).
Any one notice as well? Any thoughs on why? Looking forward to the relply's. Happy Labor Day to all.
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Yeah. It's caused by the US arming a large portion of the new Iraqi Army and then they defect, surrender, or get killed and they take their guns.
3ACR_Scout
08-30-14, 19:26
Check out this thread from a few months ago:
Captured ARs In Iraq (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?154010-Captured-AR-s-In-Iraq)
Dave
Yeah. It's caused by the US arming a large portion of the new Iraqi Army and then they defect, surrender, or get killed and they take their guns.
This. Also, the AK was a peasant gun to many of those dudes. If you saw someone rolling around with an AK-74 or an M4, they were somebody. That's why a lot of times in these videos you'll see the guy/s holding the M4 or M16 are the ones doing the talking or commanding while the nobodies in the background have their AK variants.
Though now with the amount of arms depots that have been captured it might get reversed. The pallets and crates of old A2 rifles we gave them could probably put a rifle and mags into every household on the east of the Mississippi. How long before they start complaining about their exploding rifles thinking we are planting self destruct bombs to use against them.
wildcard600
08-30-14, 23:00
This. Also, the AK was a peasant gun to many of those dudes. If you saw someone rolling around with an AK-74 or an M4, they were somebody. That's why a lot of times in these videos you'll see the guy/s holding the M4 or M16 are the ones doing the talking or commanding while the nobodies in the background have their AK variants.
Though now with the amount of arms depots that have been captured it might get reversed. The pallets and crates of old A2 rifles we gave them could probably put a rifle and mags into every household on the east of the Mississippi. How long before they start complaining about their exploding rifles thinking we are planting self destruct bombs to use against them.
we gave them bushmasters ?
we gave them bushmasters ?
Luckily, yes. And then to make our luck even better, they refused to believe their range coaches when they were told to stop loading random ammo they get their poop-covered hands on into mags but all that frustration seems a little worth it now.
Like M4guru said, we supplied a lot of M4/M16's to the Iraqi army( also M240 and M249s ), just a matter of time before we start seeing more bad guys rocking those.
Check out this thread from a few months ago:
Captured ARs In Iraq (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?154010-Captured-AR-s-In-Iraq)
Dave
Thanks to all so far.....this now makes scense. Also, Dave thanks for this link on a previous discussion that pretty much talks about what I was looking for. Still, it looks so weird to see them (and a large amount I might add - just saw some video fotage with about a dozen riding in the back of a stake bed truck and 75% were M-16's) in the hands of the bad guy. I knew I was not the only one that noticed this.
If I'm not mistaken the Chinese are producing an M4 clone now as well that they call the CQ. With the number of our M4's available there probably isn't much of a demand for them, but I've been wondering if/when they will start turning up in the mix.
Just wait till they start asking questions here about the best lube choice in arid conditions.
There was a thread not too long ago somebody posted pictures Chinese "Golt" rifles from overseas... rearing pony and all.
Berserkr556
08-31-14, 17:43
If I'm not mistaken the Chinese are producing an M4 clone now as well that they call the CQ. With the number of our M4's available there probably isn't much of a demand for them, but I've been wondering if/when they will start turning up in the mix.
The Russians also make a copy of the M4.
scoutfsu99
08-31-14, 23:26
I remember hitting a cache in Mosul and we found a couple old M16's and M4 type rifles.
If you're noticing them now, it's for all the reasons previously listed. A shame, but it is what it is.
But wait there's more! When Afghanistan goes to shit, there will be plenty of M16's and M4's equipped with M203's, ACOG's, M240's/M249's, etc... fo them to sell or fire us up with.
Sucks that that the terrorists get to rock good solid hardware now. Pisses me off to no end.
Decades of failed foreign policy.
vicious_cb
09-01-14, 02:35
Lets hope they're too dumb to lube and use decent mags. I mean if our military can screw up something that simple then they are completely screwed.
Decades of failed foreign policy.
Exactly. The armament we give to the "regime du jour" always comes back to bite us in the ass. It is a testament to the AR to see that so many are copying, and using them however.
I forgot all about the Chinese Golt. At this point I almost expect to see Chinese Hog Lube or Dog Lube someday, though neither brand would go over in the Middle East so well.
So I hear McCain calling for arming Ukrainians now. Not that I'm against any particular armed citizenry, but man these jokers in office have a terrible track record with these types of scenarios. So we give these guys a pile of weapons and who knows who has them a few years down the road...Russia, IS, etc.
Let's face it, an AR-based weapon takes a little more TLC than an AK. If properly trained and sufficiently disciplined the using army shouldn't have any major problems with an M16/M4. However, since the armies of the ME don't exactly fall into those categories I expect to see AK > AR as time goes by as those dastardly American black rifles "jam" up on them and are cast aside for the less-disciplined-friendly Kalashnikov.
I must say, to be fair, that I recall seeing a photo of an old Burmese guerrilla (Karen?) with a beat-to-hell ancient M16A1. Guess if one could be kept running all those years by a third world jungle guerrilla then perhaps there is hope for it's continued survival in the Sandbox........maybe.
This pic:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1615/7987455/15005979/370634271.jpg
3ACR_Scout
09-01-14, 08:26
I think it would be unwise to assume that ISIS follows the stereotypical model of Third World militaries and that their equipment will break down rapidly from misuse and poor maintenance. Based on the unusual discipline they've demonstrated in other areas, I'm going to err on the side of caution and wouldn't be surprised in the least if they hold weapons maintenance and cleaning classes for their fighters. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have members with experience in Chechnya and other conflicts who are well aware of the M16/M4 family of weapons' strengths and weaknesses and are passing that knowledge on to other fighters in their ranks.
Dave
Good friend in the biz brokered pallets of I think it was new Bulgarian AK's for Iraqi military and police while we destroyed tens of thousands of captured servicable AK's.
blame a good portion this on the imbecile in White House
And, most of these are full auto or 3-shot I suppose....yet us Americans can't be 'trusted' with them...we arm our enemies better than we arm our citizens...How's that for irony...?
I think it would be unwise to assume that ISIS follows the stereotypical model of Third World militaries and that their equipment will break down rapidly from misuse and poor maintenance. Based on the unusual discipline they've demonstrated in other areas, I'm going to err on the side of caution and wouldn't be surprised in the least if they hold weapons maintenance and cleaning classes for their fighters. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have members with experience in Chechnya and other conflicts who are well aware of the M16/M4 family of weapons' strengths and weaknesses and are passing that knowledge on to other fighters in their ranks.
Dave
I guess we'll see as time goes by.
brushy bill
09-01-14, 09:50
And, most of these are full auto or 3-shot I suppose....yet us Americans can't be 'trusted' with them...we arm our enemies better than we arm our citizens...How's that for irony...?
This...govt trust Islamists more than it's own citizens. Seemingly, they are less of a threat.
Nailed it. Well said. I suppose this isn't specifically suitable for M4 general discussion, but the lingering question remains: how long until it bites us? Arming our enemies over seas exacerbates problems back home. Weak borders comes to mind.
And, most of these are full auto or 3-shot I suppose....yet us Americans can't be 'trusted' with them...we arm our enemies better than we arm our citizens...How's that for irony...?
In that leaked ISIS video that was posted in GD a few months ago, some of them were even wearing multicam and one appeared to have a suppressed HK45CT.
And, most of these are full auto or 3-shot I suppose....yet us Americans can't be 'trusted' with them...we arm our enemies better than we arm our citizens...How's that for irony...?
FA really isn't a big deal. It amuses some, but outside of a belt fed, meh. If the ARs cyclic rate was lower, it might be useful. Difficult to keep three round bursts on steel beyond 50.
On the other thread there were pictures of business looking guys in khakis wearing multicam plate carriers, pmags, and the one guy even had an elcan.
I get the impression when I watch any of the isis videos or look at the pictures, these aren't the typical f tard ALQ of old. They seem to have their game together.
Amazing how much blood has been spilled on the sand. Wait till they ditch the all black getup and some good bdu's.
Our government has taken numerous questionable gambles with the often ill founded hope that the ideal or at least preferable result will transpire. This tendency still exists today, the perfect example being the recent contrast of views between Clinton and Obama on Syria.
Maybe we're still stuck on the success that was perceived when we armed the mujahideen against the Soviets, but even that came around to bite us in the ass.
I think it would be unwise to assume that ISIS follows the stereotypical model of Third World militaries and that their equipment will break down rapidly from misuse and poor maintenance. Based on the unusual discipline they've demonstrated in other areas, I'm going to err on the side of caution and wouldn't be surprised in the least if they hold weapons maintenance and cleaning classes for their fighters. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have members with experience in Chechnya and other conflicts who are well aware of the M16/M4 family of weapons' strengths and weaknesses and are passing that knowledge on to other fighters in their ranks.
Dave
Ya, I can't see ISIS throwing away ANY weapons. Even the Palestinian terrorists have been rocking M16's for years, when AK's were available.
I must say, to be fair, that I recall seeing a photo of an old Burmese guerrilla (Karen?) with a beat-to-hell ancient M16A1. Guess if one could be kept running all those years by a third world jungle guerrilla then perhaps there is hope for it's continued survival in the Sandbox........maybe.
This pic:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1615/7987455/15005979/370634271.jpg
That factory FSB sure looks like it held up real good. Probably better than any folding FSB ever will.
KalashniKEV
09-04-14, 15:33
1) I'm surprised here of all places we have folks talking about what a fragile and maintenance intensive weapons system the AR family is. They don't crunch sand like an AK, but they are still damn reliable in adverse conditions.
2) Lubing your weapon is a 2 minute block of instruction. I'm surprised no one realizes that these guys are a mix of former regime elements/ professional soldiers, IA/IP/Safwa fighters trained by us for years, and transnational Jihadis who have spent the last few years shooting people on the battlefield. (I guarantee you these mofos can PMCS the hell out of a HMMWV too)
3) The bump up from AKs to ARs is a step in the BAD direction, but it's really not much compared to them fighting in sections of up-armored gun trucks, attacking towns with artillery, or simply having access to tanks/aviation.
4) The captured NODs are the biggest "oh shit" for me... I always wore an IR strobe in an OP and minimum firefly during limited vis to prevent being shot by one of our helicopters. What was IFF is now a "SHOOT ME" beacon.
But wait there's more! When Afghanistan goes to shit, there will be plenty of M16's and M4's equipped with M203's, ACOG's, M240's/M249's, etc... fo them to sell or fire us up with.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI
i watched this last night. depressing.
i guess you can't really change a country in a fraction of a generation. the big problem with crapholes is crappy people.
Here is an excellent future article, "the terrorist and maintenance of the AR-15". If SOFREP can grab that data it would make for a most interesting development in the AK vs the AR storyline.
there is internet, not everyone there are idiots. they prob are in this forum learning.
black22rifle
09-04-14, 23:32
I think it would be unwise to assume that ISIS follows the stereotypical model of Third World militaries and that their equipment will break down rapidly from misuse and poor maintenance. Based on the unusual discipline they've demonstrated in other areas, I'm going to err on the side of caution and wouldn't be surprised in the least if they hold weapons maintenance and cleaning classes for their fighters. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have members with experience in Chechnya and other conflicts who are well aware of the M16/M4 family of weapons' strengths and weaknesses and are passing that knowledge on to other fighters in their ranks.
Dave
exactly. Don't underestimate the enemy. some of these posts reminds me of the comments made about people living in caves without running water being weak.
That was a bit of a sobering video.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
As long as our foreign policy continues to follow that idiotic "proverb", we will continue to be shot at by people we trained with the weapons we gave them.
exactly. Don't underestimate the enemy. some of these posts reminds me of the comments made about people living in caves without running water being weak.
Before some of you deliver any more lectures, perhaps a little clarification is in order. While I do not speak for anyone else in this thread but myself, I stand by my assertion that the AR family of weapons requires a little more TLC than an AK. Up front, if you're one of those unmotivated individuals who sees an AR as only needing more lube dumped in (and that's it) then we're not going to see eye to eye on the subject. Yeah, the "Filthy 14"........what-the-fark-ever. I clean my personal weapons, and I mean CLEAN them. Yep, even my lone AK. Granted, it is beyond what is needed to keep them running (big difference), but they're MY investments to treat as I see fit. So as to not have this devolve into a "cleaning" shootout, that is where I'm coming from on that aspect of weapon maintenance.
That said, weapon maintenance goes beyond how well (or not) you clean your rifle. Parts wear is the other essential aspect of maintaining a weapon, especially one you are staking your life on in combat. When I mention that the AR requires a little more TLC than an AK it also is addressing critical parts wear/breakage. How often have you heard of an AK's extractor having to be replaced? How about a broken bolt? A new action spring? Not that the AR is fragile and has to constantly have parts replaced, far from it. But think about those parts I mentioned and their counterparts on an AK. Hell, just compare the extractors and their springs! The AK is also built to looser tolerances to keep it reliable; the AR has tighter tolerances and is more accurate as a result. Even the "Filthy 14" (if you read the fine print) had to have several parts replaced on it's multi-thousand-round journey. Will ISIS have the logistical backup to replace AR parts breakage when it occurs (forget preventative replacement)? I have my doubts about that.
I have never been to the Sandbox but know MANY who have (I don't live far from Ft. Campbell), one of which is a retired SF SgtMaj who spent his career in 5th Group working with or fighting standing Middle Eastern armies. NONE of those I've spoken with (when that particular subject comes up) have glowing praise for how Afghans or Arabs take care of shit. Since ISIS is essentially an Arab force I'll go ahead and put them under that umbrella. Now, here comes the important point I hope to clarifiy for the "lecturers":
None of the above is commentary on fighting ability or tenacity!!!
Get that? I hope so, because it's seeming as though if you say you have doubts about ISIS's ability to properly maintain AR-type weapons (and all that entails as spelled out above) that you are somehow implying they're a bunch of worthless pussies on the battlefield. Not even close. I AM saying that they're a Third World contingent on how they take care of "stuff". That is not a judgement on their fighting ability on the battlefield. The NVA were a Third World military and they sure as hell could fight! So are those "cavemen" in Afghanistan. Their primitive culture may not be conducive to encouraging democracy but it is in no way indicative of their fighting ability and tenacity!
KalashniKEV
09-05-14, 15:10
Will ISIS have the logistical backup to replace AR parts breakage when it occurs (forget preventative replacement)? I have my doubts about that.
They have all the CLIX 2nd IA Division had... and probably a few of their armorers too.
All this talk about ARs throwing parts or ISIS not understanding what lubrication is or how it works is still total nonsense to me.
In any event, it looks like they're chopping a lot of heads and burying quite a few folks alive, so I guess their average jundi is about 4,000 rounds away from the recommended replacement interval and maybe 8,000 rounds away from the serviceable life of the part.
Plenty of time to stop by the rear and swap it out.
All this talk about ARs throwing parts or ISIS not understanding what lubrication is or how it works is still total nonsense to me.
What is total nonsense is not admitting that sometimes AR parts DO need replaced as compared to the frequency on an AK. I'd still rather have an AR but just stating a fact. "AR's throwing parts" is an exaggeration of what I said on your part.
Reading is fundamental if you're referring to my post: show me where I said they didn't know how to lube something or couldn't comprehend it. And if you fall into the "all an AR needs is more lube" crowd I already stated that we would not agree on that at least as far as the long-term is concerned.
It is this all-knowing dismissive hand wave-off like no one else has a clue that I find annoying, namely when it occurs as a result of an assumption. READ what someone has written and don't twist their words in an attempt to put words in their mouth. If I'm wrong on the logistic resupply side issue then fine, I stand corrected. I'll also stand by the rest of what I said though.
The NVA captured HUGE numbers of M16's from the ARVN in the closing years of the war. I'll also assume they captured the resupply parts too as they overran entire divisions. I recall seeing a *few* (very few) pics of NVA troops carrying captured M16's. However, those pics were few and far between (given the sheer number captured) and didn't see them for very long afterwards. The Vietnamese later invaded Cambodia (Kampuchea under Pol Pot) and also fought the Chinese.....any pics then were of AK's. Their mainstay was the AK and it remains so to this day.
KalashniKEV
09-05-14, 16:11
It is this all-knowing dismissive hand wave-off like no one else has a clue that I find annoying.
You are very long winded and argumentative.
As pointed out, they are more-than-a-few winning soccer seasons, crazy weddings, and village slayings away from needing anything but a little CLP.
You are very long winded and argumentative.
As pointed out, they are more-than-a-few winning soccer seasons, crazy weddings, and village slayings away from needing anything but a little CLP.
And your remarks are snide and assumptive.
The second part I won't disagree with.
Oh, one more possible issue: I'm sure we left them with shitloads of ammo but I'll wager it's still easier to find 7.62x39 than 5.56mm, and will be more so as time goes by.
there is internet, not everyone there are idiots. they prob are in this forum learning.
Probably.
And, undoubtedly, a few are now saying, "Poor Achmed. We told him to take the Colt off the dead soldier, but noooo... he wanted the Bushmaster."
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