View Full Version : Owner of Popular Parts Website, HK Parts Inc, Charged With Illegally Selling Firearms
http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/owner-of-popular-parts-website-hk-parts-inc-charged-with-illegally-selling-firearms/
This is screwed...
Webber had previously agreed to never apply for a Federal Firearms License (FFL) and never engage in the business of buying and selling guns due to an agreement reached after he failed to follow some clerical steps in the transfer of a privately owned machine gun. The DOJ/ATF is alleging that he broke this agreement when he used third party FFLs to do gun transfers related to the business.
So because someone makes a clerical error on the transfer of a privately owned machine gun ATF uses that as an opportunity to make that person sign an agreement to never become a FFL?!? So if I screw up on the title process of a car, does that mean I can never become a car dealer?
And the third party FFL stuff sounds like bullshit. He wasn't a FFL so clearly he wasn't buying from wholesalers and having guns shipped directly to him. So as a private person he was buying and selling firearms and using a FFL to properly transfer ownership to other buyers just like every other private seller on the internet.
So much for the protections of FOPA 86 I guess. But if they can't make any of that stick, there is always taxes.
Such an amazing waste of our tax dollars...
Dumbfounding really...
those last six counts may be the bigger issue for him. For the rest there are a lot of unknowns in this release.
...And the third party FFL stuff sounds like bullshit. He wasn't a FFL so clearly he wasn't buying from wholesalers and having guns shipped directly to him. So as a private person he was buying and selling firearms and using a FFL to properly transfer ownership to other buyers just like every other private seller on the internet...
According to the logic the BATFE applies in this indictment, if someone lists a firearm for sale on Gunbroker or the EE as a non-FFL and uses a FFL for the transfer, they can be indicted for selling without a license? Granted, there is no agreement in place with the BATFE to not apply for a FFL for most people, but using a third party FFL is the same as any private party transfer between non-FFLs across state lines. I don't see how this is somehow illegal when it is what the law says you have to do.
Is the new test as a "for profit" operation, like if a person bought a Saiga for $500 and sold it for $1000 on Gunbroker? Does the BATFE consider this to be a "business" now?
This indictment can open Pandora's box if the charges stick and there is a conviction. Unless there is a whole lot more to the story that is behind the indictment, it seems to be a case of a prosecutor overcharging to see what can be pled down.
I hope Adam has the resources available to him to fight, but fighting the weight of the US Government is like trying to block an avalanche with a cocktail umbrella. This just smells and would be a travesty for all those P7s to be destroyed.
Indictment: http://www.justice.gov/tax/2014/AMWebber_Indictment.pdf
Seizure List: http://www.justice.gov/tax/2014/AMWebber_1AIndictmentAttachment.pdf
If this sticks, there will be a huge hole left in the HK parts market.
C4
I'm not jumping to any conclusions one way or another, but it seems that these cases always end up with some joker who didn't know when to cut the shit. Valid points on the gunbroker examples, however.
Without the full story, it reads like he avoided prison on a shady MG transfer... There's been too many cases where you want to defend the guy, but it turns out he was a shit head who had it coming...
Doc Safari
09-03-14, 14:48
According to the logic the BATFE applies in this indictment, if someone lists a firearm for sale on Gunbroker or the EE as a non-FFL and uses a FFL for the transfer, they can be indicted for selling without a license? Granted, there is no agreement in place with the BATFE to not apply for a FFL for most people, but using a third party FFL is the same as any private party transfer between non-FFLs across state lines. I don't see how this is somehow illegal when it is what the law says you have to do.
Is the new test as a "for profit" operation, like if a person bought a Saiga for $500 and sold it for $1000 on Gunbroker? Does the BATFE consider this to be a "business" now?
Add to that, if you put a firearm on consignment at the LGS and sell it at a profit will you potentially be accused of "engaging in the business" of selling firearms?
If you inherit a bunch of guns you don't want and decide to have the LGS sell them for you, are you suddenly "selling firearms without a license?"
Don't know the guy, but upon first take it appears he got on uncle sugars radar with the messed up MG transfer. Then he supposed filed bad tax returns. If I had to guess the bad tax returns are what they are really pissed at and piled on anything else they could think of in order to gain lord leverage over his negotiation position. We'll drop the FFL crap if you simply pay up... That sort of thing.
It also seems weird that he was brokering gun sales via third party FFL's. Whether it's valid or not; there is an argument to be made if you're repeatedly selling guns through third party dealers you're engaging in the sale of guns. Which he agree not to do. You can't sell guns on gunbroker, repeatedly for profit and expect people to believe you're not engaged in the sale of guns.
montanadave
09-03-14, 15:05
Based solely on the information in the article cited, this guy got jammed up back when, cut a deal to save his ass, put himself on the radar with more than a few alphabet-soup agencies, proceeded to start cheating on his taxes, and subsequently got bit in the ass.
Where's the beef?
Moose-Knuckle
09-03-14, 15:26
So we have an open border, an ISIS member cleaning commerical passenger airliners at Minneapolis airport, a dozen missing jet airliners from the Tripoli International Airport, and this is what our Federal Government spins their wheels about?
Hope and change . . .
His prices were/are always stupid high. I always found other HK dealers with much better prices and better customer service.
If this sticks, there will be a huge hole left in the HK parts market.
C4
Sounds like another niche for you to fill as an Hk dealer!
. This just smells and would be a travesty for all those P7s to be destroyed.
Indictment: http://www.justice.gov/tax/2014/AMWebber_Indictment.pdf
Seizure List: http://www.justice.gov/tax/2014/AMWebber_1AIndictmentAttachment.pdf
I stopped counting the P7s at 100, there was easily 20-50 more. Thats a lot of identical pistols to have in a personal collection, I don't care how rare they are.
It would be very hard to convince me you have all of those pistols and you are not trying to make money off of selling them. It will be sad to see them destroyed, but I would be much sadder about the H&K G41 being destroyed.
When you are walking the line already with the ATF, why go screwing around with the IRS? great way to get the Gov coming for you.
I do feel its a tough case as far as the law, but if the law is that you can't intend to make money on a gun he is done. I don't agree with that, that would mean any one who just picked up a 900$ Colt with the intention of selling in fall of 2016 for 2000$ is also breaking this law. Will they get caught, no, will the ATF car? No. Why?, because they are not trying to make money off of literally hundreds of guns.
Sad to see this happen as HKparts.net was what I used for my HK parts.
If the Bullshit NFA Laws didn't exist in the first place.....
I'm not jumping to any conclusions one way or another, but it seems that these cases always end up with some joker who didn't know when to cut the shit. Valid points on the gunbroker examples, however.
Without the full story, it reads like he avoided prison on a shady MG transfer... There's been too many cases where you want to defend the guy, but it turns out he was a shit head who had it coming...
I read "clerical errors." I didn't read anything about a "shady deal." I have seen a lot of people unintentionally screw up a Form 4 transfer because they were simply mystified by the process and tried to figure it out on their own. I've even seen FFL/SOTs screw up Form 4 transfers and create "clerical errors."
And while we are throwing stones, how about the NFA registry itself? How many "in house" clerical errors are the ATF responsible for? If the ATF held themselves to the same standard that they impose on others, they wouldn't be allowed to touch a firearm at all and would be convicted felons.
I stopped counting the P7s at 100, there was easily 20-50 more. Thats a lot of identical pistols to have in a personal collection, I don't care how rare they are.
It would be very hard to convince me you have all of those pistols and you are not trying to make money off of selling them. It will be sad to see them destroyed, but I would be much sadder about the H&K G41 being destroyed.
When you are walking the line already with the ATF, why go screwing around with the IRS? great way to get the Gov coming for you.
I do feel its a tough case as far as the law, but if the law is that you can't intend to make money on a gun he is done. I don't agree with that, that would mean any one who just picked up a 900$ Colt with the intention of selling in fall of 2016 for 2000$ is also breaking this law. Will they get caught, no, will the ATF car? No. Why?, because they are not trying to make money off of literally hundreds of guns.
Sad to see this happen as HKparts.net was what I used for my HK parts.
Depends on the person. Some people who have money will collect multiple copies of a gun to have ones for spare parts. What started off as a couple spares to your backup end up growing to crazy numbers. Or they just have a weird compulsion. Hell, use to shoot with a guy who owned hundreds, HUNDREDS, of Winchester Model 12. People collect strange things. Wanting to own a gross or more of P7s isn't as weird as some people who collect shoes to me.
I stopped counting the P7s at 100, there was easily 20-50 more. Thats a lot of identical pistols to have in a personal collection, I don't care how rare they are.
I'm thinking of two collectors right now. One has probably 500+ Lugers in his collection and about 250 "recent Russian imports" in his "trading stock." The other has probably 800+ Colt SAA revolvers in his personal collection and maybe 150 or so in his "trading stock."
Deep pocket dealers simply have larger collections and more trading stock firearms which they need to do a "right now" deal when a Holy Grail example pops up on their radar.
Should they be prosecuted?
Used to be one could "pull a FFL" to protect themselves from this kind of thing. Then we got FOPA 86 which was supposed to protect us. Now FOPA is being eroded dramatically and few people can pull a FFL for protection against prosecution as an "unlicensed dealer."
The big problem here is the definitions used by ATF are too subjective and arbitrary. They are not specific enough to protect people and largely are a tool that ATF can apply at their discretion based upon what "they believe."
So you have Adam who is in the business of "gun parts" (which does NOT require a FFL). At the same time Adam personally collects firearms and like any other collector buys and sells firearms as he builds his collection and disposes of firearms he currently owns in order to buy more desirable examples.
He can't get a C&R that protects him from dealing with modern firearms so he is out of luck there. He was prevented from obtaining a standard 01 FFL for reasons I'm still not fully understanding. If there was anything "shady" about his machine gun transfer then fines should be imposed or charges filed. I do not see the logic of preventing somebody from obtaining a FFL so that they can "lawfully engage in the firearms business" as a form of punishment for some clerical violation.
If Adam wasn't in the business of buying and selling gun parts, he'd probably be viewed as no different from any other significant collector who fumbled the paperwork on an NFA transfer.
Bottom line is unless he really was illegally importing firearms and engaged in actual smuggling, FOPA should protect him. In a logical world, ATF should have MANDATED that he obtain a 01 FFL simply because they determined his business was "close to the line." He would have become a dealer, started dealing in firearms as well as parts as "part of his business" and that would be that. Problem solved.
NCPatrolAR
09-03-14, 17:23
Where are you guys getting the "selling for a profit = criminal" thing from?
If this sticks, there will be a huge hole left in the HK parts market.
C4
This is the part that has my attention.
So, he's higher than a cat's back on Halloween? He who has the supply, gets the price he demands.
Where are you guys getting the "selling for a profit = criminal" thing from?
People are confusing the "engaged in business for profit" criteria which ATF uses to determine if somebody is an unlicensed dealer with "selling for profit." Again in this case it's arguable either way since Adam had a "gun parts business" and was also selling firearms from his personal collection. It would be extremely easy for ATF to tie the two practices together and simply declare he was "engaged in business for profit" with respect to selling firearms from his personal collection then that is it.
Even if it went to trial it wouldn't be hard to sell it to a jury of 12 people who probably aren't savvy enough to understand the distinction and explaining FOPA 86 to them would probably just confuse them even more. The likelihood that Adam can find and afford an attorney that is an expert on things like FOPA 86 and the criteria for being a FFL vs. a private seller is remote.
And even if Adam does beat the unlicensed dealer charges, they will dig around and find something like tax irregularities until they have something solid they can hang over his head that will require him to cut a deal.
Same thing happened to Cav Arms, initially there were charges of unregistered machine guns, illegal guns going to California, fraud and a bunch of other things. In the end they ended up with incomplete 4473s and a guy who claimed to be an AZ resident (guy was working with ATF after he got stung) who was also residing in CA who got the owner of Cav Arms to store some firearms for him since he couldn't take them back to CA. The customer in question filled out a 4473 and passed a NICS check with his AZ state ID. Last time I checked it wasn't illegal for anyone to "store firearms" in a state where they are legal, but they had enough to hang over his head so the owner of Cav took the deal that kept him out of jail and avoided heavy fines.
But whatever takes focus away from things like Fast and Furious I guess.
And even if Adam does beat the unlicensed dealer charges, they will dig around and find something like tax irregularities until they have something solid they can hang over his head that will require him to cut a deal.
They've done all of that work ahead of time SAUG, if you read the indictment it reads more like the IRS is after him and the ATF is going along for the ride. Multiple years of alleged tax fraud are detailed in the PDF of the indictment.
I don't know what his gunbroker activities were like or his other buying and selling was like.
I think as someone said, having what appears to be a large inventory of the same exact firearms looks suspicious. It's one thing to have 100 Lugers--a gun commonly collected. It's another to have 20+ PTR91s of the same model, and close to 100 P-7s.
http://www.justice.gov/tax/2014/AMWebber_1AIndictmentAttachment.pdf
Edited to add: also, if you are running a firearms parts business and do not have an FFL you have to be extra careful about your own firearms sales.
I don't know what his gunbroker activities were like or his other buying and selling was like.
I think as someone said, having what appears to be a large inventory of the same exact firearms looks suspicious. It's one thing to have 100 Lugers--a gun commonly collected. It's another to have 20+ PTR91s of the same model, and close to 100 P-7s.
http://www.justice.gov/tax/2014/AMWebber_1AIndictmentAttachment.pdf
Edited to add: also, if you are running a firearms parts business and do not have an FFL you have to be extra careful about your own firearms sales.
And that is the fundamental problem here. Rather than providing a provision for him to do exactly that, they actually did the opposite and prevented him from becoming a FFL. I've never heard of these kinds of practices in the regulation of any other business.
Even places that violate other ATF laws by selling untaxed cigarettes and liquor establishments with multiple violations of selling to minors do NOT get their doors kicked and rarely are they hit with felony charges and only in the most extreme cases do they get their licenses revoked.
I don't even think the places that sell medical marijuana are at the same risk as the typical FFL when it comes to having your life destroyed for failure to adhere to regulations and practices.
Also P7s have a strong cult following. They just aren't as old as Lugers.
Hunter Rose
09-04-14, 07:23
My guess is it will not end well. He has had MR556, MR762, and the Umarex .22 rifles listed on his site for years now.
http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-MR556-Rifle-14p1818.htm
Hell, it even says "Our Products" at the top of the page right under the HKParts.net banner and has a SKU number for the rifle. Sure there is a legal disclaimer at the bottom of the page, but if he sold any of these type of rifles, even throuh 3rd party FFLs, it seems a much more difficult argument that he wasn't using his parts business to also sell rifles. It does not leave a good impression at the very least.
The_War_Wagon
09-04-14, 07:30
Such an amazing waste of our tax dollars...
Dumbfounding really...
The ONE thing gummint is TRULY "good" at... :rolleyes: I think I bought some parts from him, too.
I'm thinking of two collectors right now. One has probably 500+ Lugers in his collection and about 250 "recent Russian imports" in his "trading stock." The other has probably 800+ Colt SAA revolvers in his personal collection and maybe 150 or so in his "trading stock."
Deep pocket dealers simply have larger collections and more trading stock firearms which they need to do a "right now" deal when a Holy Grail example pops up on their radar.
Right they might want to trade them for some other collectors item, that makes sense. I guess even I get having that many of a single out of production gun, especially if there is variation between them.
My question is do these same people have a gun parts website they advertise their Lugers and Colt revolvers for sale on?
He went about selling items from his personal collection in a very business oriented fashion, not a good look for some one with out an FFL and a previous tangle with the ATF.
It would be very hard to convince me you have all of those pistols and you are not trying to make money off of selling them. It will be sad to see them destroyed, but I would be much sadder about the H&K G41 being destroyed.
My brother-in-law works at a large scrap yard here in phoenix and has countless heartbreaking stories of the guns ATF brings in to be destroyed. Even the scum bag agents who have to take them for destruction hate to see the wastefulness of it all. Very few museum grade guns are saved from this doom.
I hope to get pics from him. He says they'll often get a scrap van, load the guns into it, crush the van, and then run it through the shredder. :(
I read "clerical errors." I didn't read anything about a "shady deal."
Folks get their papers bounced all the time for clerical errors... without cutting deals with the ATF. I don't believe for a minute that this goober made a typo on a form.
Folks get their papers bounced all the time for clerical errors... without cutting deals with the ATF. I don't believe for a minute that this goober made a typo on a form.
I'm not suggesting a simple typo. But that also doesn't mean he willfully attempted something "shady." I've seen people attempt all kinds of things they "thought" would be perfectly fine. We actually need a bit more info before either of us can be certain of anything regarding the original "clerical errors."
Could be something innocent I suppose.
It also seems weird that he was brokering gun sales via third party FFL's. Whether it's valid or not; there is an argument to be made if you're repeatedly selling guns through third party dealers you're engaging in the sale of guns. Which he agree not to do. You can't sell guns on gunbroker, repeatedly for profit and expect people to believe you're not engaged in the sale of guns.
Does it really matter that someone buys old cars, holds them for a few years, cleans them up and sell them for a profit?
Do they need a dealers license to sell cars? No
So the government decided you need an FFL to deal in guns. This is a restrictions that FFLs know what they are doing and will not sell to a criminal. So we are on a slippery slope. I sell a gun, am I a dealer? How about if I sell two? How about if I sell three? Does it make a difference that I lost money on the first two?
My brother-in-law works at a large scrap yard here in phoenix and has countless heartbreaking stories of the guns ATF brings in to be destroyed. Even the scum bag agents who have to take them for destruction hate to see the wastefulness of it all. Very few museum grade guns are saved from this doom.
I hope to get pics from him. He says they'll often get a scrap van, load the guns into it, crush the van, and then run it through the shredder. :(
Seems like we should sell them and start paying down the national dept or something.
Could be something innocent I suppose.
He could also be guilty.
We need more info.
Moose-Knuckle
09-04-14, 17:10
He could also be guilty.
We need more info.
". . . shall not be infringed."
We need more liberty.
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