View Full Version : ATPIAL-C
Sparky5019
09-03-14, 08:48
FINALLY! Thoughts?
http://tnvc.com/shop/l3-insight-atpial-c-class1-ir-laser/
After jumping through hoops to find a DBAL-A2, this is a MUCH better alternative to paying out the ass for a PEQ-15 or A2 on the civilian market.
Reasonably priced, same housing/controls as the 15, and full factory support in the case it goes tits up. I'm building another clone of my work rifle and will definitely be picking one of these up to put on it.
This is a great step forward for civilian night vision owners.
Failure2Stop
09-03-14, 09:32
Great...
Now I have to figure out how to raise $1200...
Sparky5019
09-03-14, 09:41
After jumping through hoops to find a DBAL-A2, this is a MUCH better alternative to paying out the ass for a PEQ-15 or A2 on the civilian market.
Reasonably priced, same housing/controls as the 15, and full factory support in the case it goes tits up. I'm building another clone of my work rifle and will definitely be picking one of these up to put on it.
This is a great step forward for civilian night vision owners.
I see your point but I just had to return a BRAND NEW DBAL-I2 for failure. Besides, I like the way it sits low on the rail and there's little to no gap under the mount to get your fingers/thumb caught in. It also has an IR illuminator which the LDI does not have.
Sparky5019
09-03-14, 09:42
Great...
Now I have to figure out how to raise $1200...
Exactly!
$1200.....
Hmmm.....a few cases of ammo?
I'll ask a stupid question:
Why SO expensive?
Is it because: a) paying for the technology; b) relatively low volume of sales for the company.
Low demand, higher price. Macroeconomics 101?
Paul,
$1,200 for a durable IR/Vis laser with an illuminator is pretty damn affordable. I'm happily placing my pre-order right now.
If you don't own night vision, I could see why this wouldn't be worthwhile or met with skepticism. But if you're serious about investing in night shooting, this is a much better alternative to the DBAL-D2 or a second hand PEQ-15/15A.
I've learned to never say never to anything having to do with firearms, so .....
I'm sorely tempted to ring in my CC information to get one.
I see your point but I just had to return a BRAND NEW DBAL-I2 for failure. Besides, I like the way it sits low on the rail and there's little to no gap under the mount to get your fingers/thumb caught in. It also has an IR illuminator which the LDI does not have.
I don't know if my original post was just poorly written, but I agree with you. I think this is a superior product to the DBAL in nearly every way (not the biggest fan of the mount on the PEQ-15, but it works). I do think the QD lever on my DBAL-A2 is both easier to mount/dismount, but it's a very solid mount altogether. I've seen more than a few PEQs crack at the lips of the polymer around the mount and also seen a few crack because of over tightening the screw. Regardless, I'm very excited for these to hit the market.
The factory warranty on this is going to make it a great choice for anyone looking into an IR laser. Instead of having to risk getting a stolen MIL/LEO PEQ or having it show up broken/breaking during use, we have a legit, factory Insight supported PEQ. The DBAL was a great innovation and brought Class 1 lasers to the mainstream, but as you personally know, they aren't very tough and there are more than a few members here and on LF who have sent theirs back for repairs.
Like I said, I'm happy to see Insight selling these and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one when I get back to the states.
I'd still really like to have one, but all this offers over a DBAL-I2 for me personally is being an Insight offering, and having an IR illuminator. For that cost delta, I can outfit two Surefire WML's with vampire heads (since I already run ludicrously tall optic mounts to clear IR-NV systems), and until I need something somewhat more Marine-proof (which the PEQ15 remarkably enough seemed to be for most - that in itself is one hell of an accomplishment) I'll be happy to snap up the extra used DBAL's that will crop up as a result of the APTIAL being a civilian offering.
Sparky5019
09-03-14, 12:42
I don't know if my original post was just poorly written, but I agree with you. I think this is a superior product to the DBAL in nearly every way (not the biggest fan of the mount on the PEQ-15, but it works). I do think the QD lever on my DBAL-A2 is both easier to mount/dismount, but it's a very solid mount altogether. I've seen more than a few PEQs crack at the lips of the polymer around the mount and also seen a few crack because of over tightening the screw. Regardless, I'm very excited for these to hit the market.
The factory warranty on this is going to make it a great choice for anyone looking into an IR laser. Instead of having to risk getting a stolen MIL/LEO PEQ or having it show up broken/breaking during use, we have a legit, factory Insight supported PEQ. The DBAL was a great innovation and brought Class 1 lasers to the mainstream, but as you personally know, they aren't very tough and there are more than a few members here and on LF who have sent theirs back for repairs.
Like I said, I'm happy to see Insight selling these and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on one when I get back to the states.
Roger that. I misread (reading fast). That was my mistake. Sorry dude.
Very interesting, now I have to decide on this or go with the CQBL-1 & M300V combo I was considering.
Voodoo_Man
09-03-14, 14:50
Do Need....
kaltesherz
09-03-14, 17:04
If I had NODs outside of work I'd pick this up in a second. Luckily I don't, but a buddy does and I sent him the link- I've been bugging him to replace his PEQ-2 for awhile and now he's out of excuses. PEQ-15s are just so much easier to zero and are much harder to bump off zero, not to mention taking up less space.
I pity the day a good set of PVS-14's get down to about a grand a pop- I've been meaning to set up my HD gun like my issue one for years but can't justify the cost. But if you can drop $3k on NODs, you can drop $1200 (or $1100 if you pre order) on this.
Didn't InSight show off a civie IR laser sans illuminator at SHOT Show with an estimated MSRP of $500-600?
Boba Fett v2
09-03-14, 19:40
**** me. I need this now.
Great...
Now I have to figure out how to raise $1200...
X5 for me...this is going to get in the way of my thermal purchase.
I wonder if they charge your card upon the order being placed, or when the item ships in November. I never like floating a loan to companies. :)
Boba Fett v2
09-04-14, 10:56
Starting a savings specifically for this. Paying ca$h money.
Outlander Systems
09-04-14, 16:03
What's the difference between this and the LA-5?
$1200 seems like a steal.
What's the difference between this and the LA-5?
$1200 seems like a steal.
The PEQ-15 doesn't have the extra high power settings of the LA-5 or the finger adjustable illuminator zeroing controls.
This (ATPIAL-C) is a Class 1 IR laser with Class IIIR Vis laser and IIIR IR illuminator. It won't have the full IIIB IR laser/illuminator of the regular PEQ-15.
Outlander Systems
09-04-14, 18:51
The PEQ-15 doesn't have the extra high power settings of the LA-5 or the finger adjustable illuminator zeroing controls.
This (ATPIAL-C) is a Class 1 IR laser with Class IIIR Vis laser and IIIR IR illuminator. It won't have the full IIIB IR laser/illuminator of the regular PEQ-15.
Roger that. Nevertheless, $1,200 is a steal. I have a feeling Vic is gonna have a hard time keeping these in stock.
Just heard back from the folks selling these. Your credit card is charged immediately, not when the item ships. They said this is to guarantee your place in line to get one.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Just heard back from the folks selling these. Your credit card is charged immediately, not when the item ships. They said this is to guarantee your place in line to get one.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I ordered one and the charge showed up on my card the next day.
Sparky5019
09-13-14, 14:18
Yup. I paid for it immediately. Waiting....
....
....
StevieJ309
09-16-14, 20:48
Didn't InSight show off a civie IR laser sans illuminator at SHOT Show with an estimated MSRP of $500-600?
I think that was the CIVL and last I heard they decided not to go forward with it.
I really want one of these, but I don't see myself getting into NV any time soon.
Question. Why not do the vis laser in green?
kaltesherz
11-17-14, 23:25
Question. Why not do the vis laser in green?
Green lasers are more expensive.
Green lasers are more expensive.
True, but I'd gladly pay the difference because of my eyes better response to green vs red.
Green lasers are more expensive.
True, but I'd gladly pay the difference because of my eyes better response to green vs red.
Understood. Just strikes me as one of those why not things when your in the almost 1500$ territory. Granted my personal experience with NV is nil at present I'm hoping to get into it within the next year or so and I ponder whether or not a dbal and IR scout combo is still the way to go sans green vis availability in the ATPIAL-c.
dangrullon87
12-01-14, 08:20
I would love to see a comparison between this and the DBAL-D2. Wish it came in a green diode.
I would love to see a comparison between this and the DBAL-D2. Wish it came in a green diode.
Not sure it would be much of a comparison. The D2 is uses a high power IR LED (which can be seen naked eye from the emitter) with an effective range of 800 yards, while the ATPIAL-C is a true laser system (basically non-visible from the emitter) with a fixed IR Lum out to 150 yards. Vis and IR laser pointers on both units are the same power.
Vic
dangrullon87
12-02-14, 08:39
Thanks for the reply Vic. I just personally find it quicker to pick up the green laser over the red. Buddy of mine has the i2 in red and ive got a D2 in green. The D2 under NVG lights up an area amazingly well, love it. But I like how close to the rail the ATPIAL sits though since the D2 is pretty bulky. May pick one up.
mcmillanman5
12-05-14, 11:27
Not sure it would be much of a comparison. The D2 is uses a high power IR LED (which can be seen naked eye from the emitter) with an effective range of 800 yards, while the ATPIAL-C is a true laser system (basically non-visible from the emitter) with a fixed IR Lum out to 150 yards. Vis and IR laser pointers on both units are the same power.
Vic
Vic, why is the illuminatior on the atpial-c fixed and not adjustable like the full power model?
EasyRhino72
12-06-14, 11:26
Have these started shipping? How are folks liking them?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
From TNVC's Facebook the other day
We have been receiving a few phone calls about the shipping time frame of the ATPIAL-C lasers. Yesterday we were given a firm update from L3. I felt the need to address this and post it publicly, that way, everyone can be better informed and on the same page. As always, we want to give info to our customer’s and tell it like it is, as it is told to us.
We were expecting to take receipt of the first batch of the ATPIAL-C mid-November. This is exactly how it was laid out to us from L3. Things happen, and there were some delays, which I was honestly expecting. Things got pushed to what we thought would be late November/ early December. I was sincerely hoping to take receipt of the first shipment this week seeing as how we have had many customers anxious to receive them. Presently, the ATPIAL-C’s are in their required final phase of testing at Insights factory. Upon completion, they will ship. The new status is, the first batch of ATPIAL-C’s are to be shipped to us directly on December 12. We understand that this is upsetting to most of our customers. Please understand, we have done everything on our side to ensure we can expedite this as much as possible.
L3 is a company that prides themselves on quality products, and they have the reputation to prove it. Therefore, the testing that occurs with each and every unit before it heads out the door is something that not everyone can understand or side with. Production delays are a setback that are tricky to work around. I don’t particularly care for them, however, that’s the way quality products work sometimes, and the ATPIAL-C being a Mil-Spec product, directly produced and taken from their Mil-Spec ATPIAL PEQ-15 assembly line, it’s no surprise the extensive testing these units are undergoing.
As for the second phase of the ATPIAL-C’s, they are expected to be shipped to use before the end of the year.
The excitement for the release of the ATPIAL-C is astronomical, with good reason. This is an industry first, and there is nothing else like it on the market. We want to thank each and every one of our customers for their orders, and patronage. The ATPIAL-C program was made possible, not by us, not by L3/Insight, but by our loyal customers, who continue to push us to constantly change and innovate the night vision market.
For the complications, and for the wait, we have decided to include a Telluric Group IR Laser Zero Target with every ATPIAL-C, when they begin shipping.
http://tnvc.com/shop/telluric-group-ir-laser-zero-targets/
Again, we apologize for the inconvenience in the delay. We are eager to get them in our hands as well. If you guys have any questions, feel free to contact us here, via phone, email or any of our other social media avenues.
EasyRhino72
12-07-14, 08:02
Guess that answers it. Some lucky folks will have a nice Xmas gift
Sparky5019
12-22-14, 17:01
Got mine today! Kudos to FedEx...A DAY EARLY! I'll try to do up a quick review/report but gave lie personal expectations due to the holiday. ;)
Jwknutson17
01-27-15, 07:44
Any consensus on how this is stacking up? Been looking at it hard as an option but not much out there yet.
I'm rather torn between this and the Wilcox RATPAR which seems to have all of the same features with the added bonus of a Surefire visible flashlight.
Jwknutson17
01-27-15, 21:33
My issue is that I pretty much standardized all my SBRs with M300V surefires already, plus mounts, plus SR Switches. Im already almost 500 deep in each one.. Should have just went a different direction from the start. The CQBL-1 is on the short list. But with these new offerings, I cant decide..
Check out the "PEQ-15 vs Wilcox RAPTAR" thread on TOS. The RAPTAR's IR illumination is rather lack luster in the provided pics. This coupled with its large profile, mounting system, and controls have pushed me into the ATPIAL-C's camp.
Check out the "PEQ-15 vs Wilcox RAPTAR" thread on TOS. The RAPTAR's IR illumination is rather lack luster in the provided pics. This coupled with its large profile, mounting system, and controls have pushed me into the ATPIAL-C's camp.
Any specific reason your not considering a DBAL?
Jwknutson17
01-27-15, 23:00
pushed me into the ATPIAL-C's camp.
This.. and the CQBL-1 with the Fusion CQBL-1 rail clamp with my m300v on there, is the main factor I still have the cqbl-1 on my list. Seeing I already have the light. I just like the ability to have the white light without running dual weapon lights, or adding an additional light to the ATPIAL-C set up. If I didnt have the surefire V already, I'm pretty sure I would have bought the ATPIAL-C. While the Wilcox looks like a winner also. It does look a little large for my taste on a SBR that it would be going on with already limited rail space.. I am also considering the DBAL-I2. The easy thing to do would be to just buy them all.. ;)
Any specific reason your not considering a DBAL?
Mainly the size and weight are my biggest concern with the DBAL-D2. I'm thinking that it will really mess with my sight picture when running an Aimpoint T2 on my SCAR at 12 o'clock. However, I'm giving the DBAL its due diligence since the consensus is that it has excellent IR illumination. However, my needs are for decent illumination out to 150-200 yards, and the DBAL seems to be a better setup for longer ranges.
It seems that the IR illumination is the big hang up with many of these quasi PEQ-15 devices. According to some early reviews on Sniper's Hide, the ATPAIL-C's IR illumination is not the nice tight circle seen on TNVC's website. I suppose that there are some sacrifices to be made when developing an eye safe IR illumination tool.
Oops, I meant the i2/A3 version. I figure the D2 is a bit of a different animal.
I suppose that the DBAL-A3 is the logical competition to the ATPIAL-C with several upgrades including visible green laser, adjustable IR illumination, and some reportedly cool activation interfaces being announced at SHOT. However, the A3 will not be shipping until March (maybe later?) and even less is know about how the production version's illumination stacks up against the ATPIAL.
Jwknutson17
01-30-15, 19:01
Pulled the trigger today on a CQBL-1. After talking with TNVC today on the phone, pretty much sealed the deal on the CQBL-1 with my M300v setup on my SBR. Asked about both the DBAL-I2 and the ATPIAL-C also. And the gentlemen said with SBR, CQBL was their best choice. Asked about the other options being discussed here, and seemed that for a smaller "non bulky" package, the CQBL-1 was the way to go. Ill post some pics up when it arrives. Going to be taking a few measurements and trying different light mounts to see what the best position is going to be. I'm still up in the air for my longer railed rifles with the ATPIAL-C and maybe even the A3 once I build back up the funds.
I all seems to boil down to how much, if any, IR illumination you need. The CQBL-1 might work for room clearing distances, but most of us NEED at least 100-200 yards of IR illumination to to bring out the potential of our NODs. The question still remains as to which eye-safe IR laser illuminator can do this best. The RAPTAR is probably out of the competition since the pictures of its IR illuminator are weak sauce. Insight had to do some fancy engineering to keep the ATPIAL-C's IR illumination safe across the beam's output which may have altered the appearance of the illumination. Some people on Sniper's Hide are posting pictures with a half-moon appearing IR illumination beam from the ATPIAL; not a deal breaker for me but I can see how some people accustomed to the issued PEQ-15 might be perturbed.
The big question that I have is how did LD/Steiner address this riddle with the DBAL-A3? The D2's IR illumination is magnificent but we are comparing apples to oranges since it is an LED IR illuminator. I suppose time will tell as I've not seen any pre-release pictures of the A3's illumination. Vic at TNVC is supposed to post some pictures of the A3's IR illumination on TOS and may of us are anxiously waiting...
hotrodder636
02-18-15, 20:16
If one can get a PEQ-15 for $120 more than the ATPIAL-C why not go that route? Am I missing something regarding features, pricing or availability?
If one can get a PEQ-15 for $120 more than the ATPIAL-C why not go that route? Am I missing something regarding features, pricing or availability?
Assuming your a civilian, if it breaks your screwed as far as repairs go. Unfortunately.
hotrodder636
02-18-15, 20:45
So forgive my ignorance here but the PEQ-15 is not on the civilian market and the ATPIAL -C is? That makes sense. I don't know much about NV gear, starting to read up and learn.
Assuming your a civilian, if it breaks your screwed as far as repairs go. Unfortunately.
diving dave
02-19-15, 11:32
So forgive my ignorance here but the PEQ-15 is not on the civilian market and the ATPIAL -C is? That makes sense. I don't know much about NV gear, starting to read up and learn.
It has to do with the power of the IR laser (.7 MW) and the illuminator. Full powered IR pointers are regulated, IE cant be sold to civilians.
Basically the government hates and doesn't trust you. In a nut shell.
Basically the government hates and doesn't trust you. In a nut shell.
I'm not sure how I feel about dipshits having lasers that can blind me with an invisible beam. As it stands now, we have a big problem retards illuminating aircraft on approach with green lasers for shits and giggles. These same people would love to blind your ass and you have no means to detect it while they are doing it.
I'm not sure how I feel about dipshits having lasers that can blind me with an invisible beam. As it stands now, we have a big problem retards illuminating aircraft on approach with green lasers for shits and giggles. These same people would love to blind your ass and you have no means to detect it while they are doing it.
Point conceded but I'll note that retards are still in plenty possession of far more dangerous things at the moment anyways. I'll error on the side of liberty.
So forgive my ignorance here but the PEQ-15 is not on the civilian market and the ATPIAL -C is? That makes sense. I don't know much about NV gear, starting to read up and learn.
Briefly, the PEQ-15's high-power settings for the laser aimer and illuminator carry a class IIIb designation which means they can damage your eye. This damage can occur eventhough the laser is not visible. These are regulated by the FDA and can be owned, but not operated, by civilians. Insight will not sell or perform warranty work on civilian owned PEQ-15's. Thus, buying one of these online has some risks. First, there is a chance that you are purchasing stolen government property. Second, you're SOL if the unit breaks because Insight will not ship it back to you if you try to send it to them for a fix.
The ATPIAL-C is the civilian version of the PEQ-15 which uses laser IR aimer and illuminator which are not powerful enough (class I) to damage your eye. I have an ATPIAL-C and have been issued the PEQ-15, so I feel comfortable making the comparison. The PEQ's illuminator is significantly better/brighter than its civilian sister's. However, the ATPIAL's is more than capable for CQB ranges out to about 150 yards in pitch dark conditions using my PVS-14 Omni as a NOD. If you must go beyond 150 yards, an LED IR illuminator (DBAL D2) is probably the way to go.
hotrodder636
02-24-15, 22:37
So it is because of the power/class of laser used. Got it.
I'm not sure how I feel about dipshits having lasers that can blind me with an invisible beam. As it stands now, we have a big problem retards illuminating aircraft on approach with green lasers for shits and giggles. These same people would love to blind your ass and you have no means to detect it while they are doing it.
hotrodder636
02-24-15, 22:41
As a user of both, how does the ATPIAL-C compare to the PEQ? A worthy model for us untrustworthy civilians?
Briefly, the PEQ-15's high-power settings for the laser aimer and illuminator carry a class IIIb designation which means they can damage your eye. This damage can occur eventhough the laser is not visible. These are regulated by the FDA and can be owned, but not operated, by civilians. Insight will not sell or perform warranty work on civilian owned PEQ-15's. Thus, buying one of these online has some risks. First, there is a chance that you are purchasing stolen government property. Second, you're SOL if the unit breaks because Insight will not ship it back to you if you try to send it to them for a fix.
The ATPIAL-C is the civilian version of the PEQ-15 which uses laser IR aimer and illuminator which are not powerful enough (class I) to damage your eye. I have an ATPIAL-C and have been issued the PEQ-15, so I feel comfortable making the comparison. The PEQ's illuminator is significantly better/brighter than its civilian sister's. However, the ATPIAL's is more than capable for CQB ranges out to about 150 yards in pitch dark conditions using my PVS-14 Omni as a NOD. If you must go beyond 150 yards, an LED IR illuminator (DBAL D2) is probably the way to go.
The PEQ's IR illuminator is better - hands down. The beam is brighter and the pattern is more of a perfect circle. The ATPIAL is serviceable for most civilian applications such as illuminating a basement, corridor, etc. However, the PEQ is much better for outdoor use especially if trying to illuminate beyond 100 meters.
The IR aimer on the PEQ is also stronger, but this rarely comes into place since most Gen3 NODs are not seeing much beyond 250 meters. Thus, the NODs are the range limiting factor when it comes to aiming.
jaybirdritenour2
03-19-15, 20:02
So how far will the Surefire M962V IR LED throw out too? I'm thinking of running the Insight ATPIAL-C along with the surefire so it can get the longer ranges if needed. And will there be a naked eye signature from the surefire's led also when running it?
Pulled the trigger today on a CQBL-1. After talking with TNVC today on the phone, pretty much sealed the deal on the CQBL-1 with my M300v setup on my SBR. Asked about both the DBAL-I2 and the ATPIAL-C also. And the gentlemen said with SBR, CQBL was their best choice. Asked about the other options being discussed here, and seemed that for a smaller "non bulky" package, the CQBL-1 was the way to go. Ill post some pics up when it arrives. Going to be taking a few measurements and trying different light mounts to see what the best position is going to be. I'm still up in the air for my longer railed rifles with the ATPIAL-C and maybe even the A3 once I build back up the funds.
Just wondering if you had any feedback and pics to add? I'm considering a CQBL-1 for my SBR as well and have found very few reviews...
jamesavery22
01-07-16, 09:23
Does anyone know how hot the rail can get that an ATPIAL-C is mounted to? I'm curious to know if I'd kill this thing if I mounted it on an AK Ultimak...
Thanks in advance.
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