View Full Version : A discussion of build quality…………
Through the reading of countless threads and never ending Google searches, I have developed a question that I just cant find a clear answer to…….. Using ONLY premium parts, can you build an AR-15 that matches (or surpasses) the reliability/quality of an off the shelve Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, (name your pinnacle brand)?
Before your answer, let me give you some background information. For arguments sake, the assembler would be someone who is mechanically inclined and knows their way around a workshop. They’re a gun enthusiast but experience is limited to shooting and routine maintenance. Lastly, all of the correct tools would be used in the build process.
So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
Reliability is a matter of mathematics, so until a home-built gun can be tested to the same standards as a Colt, BCM, etc. the answer is really unknown. (and probably will remain unknown)
If you're assembling a rifle with reputable parts of known quality/verified standards, I have no reason to believe you can't achieve a comparable level of reliability/quality.
I think it's absolutely possible. Check the fit before assembly, use the proper tools and torque specs, and choose quality parts. Getting all of the proper tools can be a little spendy, but there's no magic involved in assembling a weapon properly.
It is quite possible to build a high quality, reliable AR. It would be very hard to do it for less than some of the amazing prices that a Colt or BCM can be had for right now. The difference for me is there is no waste when I build my own, as I choose each part based on my needs. I hate stripping parts off guns to replace them with what I really wanted.
If you want a basic carbine or rifle, it makes sense to buy one built by the name brands. If your desires are a little different than basic, building makes sense.
There is also a certain satisfaction from building your own rifle.
Generally, you'll be fine. One can't replace competence and experience, though.
So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
Yes and No. If you follow the correct instructions you can build a comparable rifle to the better brands out there, but there are certain tricks and tips you learn from experience that can really enhance the build. For example not going over 25 ft-lbs of torque on the muzzle device can help with accuracy, and there certain techniques that you develop while installing parts that leads to less marring, scratches and lost parts. Just little things like that.
You shouldn't have any trouble building an Ar15 with all the online instructions and videos and torque values to use.
Pick up a stripped lower receiver and a colt lower parts kit from g and r tactical to get started, it is a lot of fun to assemble and learn every part & how they work. On the other hand, new Colts are going for under $900 if you look around and like their offerings, you won't beat that price by building your own.
TacticalMark
09-03-14, 20:42
It is quite possible to build a high quality, reliable AR. It would be very hard to do it for less than some of the amazing prices that a Colt or BCM can be had for right now. The difference for me is there is no waste when I build my own, as I choose each part based on my needs. I hate stripping parts off guns to replace them with what I really wanted.
If you want a basic carbine or rifle, it makes sense to buy one built by the name brands. If your desires are a little different than basic, building makes sense.
There is also a certain satisfaction from building your own rifle.
I agree, Knowledge will come with experience. Choosing quality parts is going to be key. You can definitely build a reliable, quality rifle with whats on the market right now.
Most of the workers building any mass production firearm are highly experienced in the operation they are responsible for in the manufacturing/assembly process. That being said, I doubt that many will care as much about assembling your rifle as you would.
I've been an armorer on most major LE pistols, shotguns and rifles for several decades. When I started the S&W, Remington and Ruger courses in particular were taught by guys that had been building guns for years and had mucho time in the warranty and repair shop. Almost all of them would talk about QC issues in the factory brought about by workers that didn't give two hoots about the product.
So there is no doubt in my mind just about anyone that cares, has access to manuals, proper tools and quality components, could build an AR on par with any of the mass manufacturers.
Surpassing the quality of one of the 'boutique' manufacturers who is working out of a smaller shop, with fewer personnel, and proportionately higher prices, might be another matter.
I build my own shooters, have more tied up in them than I would have in a comparably equipped and performing rifle from a manufacturer, but they are my builds, that means something.
For match use, long range varminting, or other precision applications, I buy from a specialist.
JMO.
2nd.amendment
09-03-14, 21:09
For most uses, I would agree with the others above. Buying quality parts and taking the time to understand what you're doing will likely result in a very good outcome. Quality companies put enough time and QC into their products that it should be pretty tough to screw up function (again, as long as quality parts are used throughout).
On the other hand, if someone tries to push the limits, such as in trying to make the most accurate AR possible, even with quality parts, more experienced companies/builders will likely have better results (either in accuracy or reliability). In those cases, they may have some "secret sauce" or at least better spices that we can't access or haven't tested to find the right combinations. Similar to what 26 is saying (I think) . . .
For match use, long range varminting, or other precision applications, I buy from a specialist.
MorphCross
09-03-14, 21:09
Build your own rifle, but don't ever expect to be able to re-sell it for anything close to what you put into it. You are better off not taking the loss and selling a rifle built by known manufacturers.
There are a lot of poorly built ARs from manufacturers, there are also a lot of well built ARs from manufacturers. There are a lot of poorly built ARs from home assemblers, there are also some weill built ARs from home assemblers. I would trust my life to ARs built by skilled longtime armorers as well as some select manufacturers. I would and do trust my life to an AR I built for my self. I wouldn't ask anyone to trust their life to it however as I'm not in the business of building ARs professionally.
The only real advantage is making a rifle with every single aspect that is to your taste.
Really, its less expensive/less of a risk to buy a quality rifle. Especially now. There's some insane deals on Colts and complete BCM uppers are shipping with free bcgs and comps.
In my opinion, the bolt, bolt carrier and barrel are the heart and lungs of the AR-15 platform. Everything else just hangs off the three components and are not as critical.
I recently retired a Tier 4 or Tier 5 hated upper receiver that had multiple barrels mounted on it for shooting High Power rifle matches. It got the job done reliably out to 600 yards for years. I am still using the hated lower receiver.
With good quality parts, I believe the devil is in the details. Buy a good barrel, bolt and bolt carrier in that order. You can experiment with the rest of it and get good service life.
Yes, it can be done assuming that the builder knows what he is doing. I do not own any factory guns, with the exception of a factory 13" KMR ELW upper with a BCM lower. All of my AR's have been built by me. The main advantage is that you can get EXACTLY what you want, without waste. For example- I have one upper that uses a new SIONICS LW melonite barrel, set into a MUR upper with a 14" CMR rail.
I have another upper that is a Colt upper, with a Colt 6920 barrel with Geissele low profile gas block and 13" MKI rail. Another upper is a FN 20" with an M5 RAS, Vltor A5 buffer in the lower, etc... I have no wasted components at all.
The same goes with my SBR uppers, etc...
With good parts and know how, I believe you can build a solid rifle on par with one built by a manufacturer. You may have to reach out to someone who has seen a lot of AR parts and ask them for guidance. An experienced AR builder will know what works, what parts last longer than others and how to properly assemble the rifle/carbine. As time progresses, new parts are developed. Take a close look at the inside of a M-16 built in the 1960's and compare the machine work to that in a rifle built in the past 10 years.
I am also a firm believer that a person can purchase good parts and jack up a build if they don't pay attention to detail. I have been doing my own AR work for 20 years, but I am not afraid to ask an experienced person when I come across a new part or process I have not seen before.
Agreed... it can be done. I also don't own any factory completes.
The AR is both easy to build, and easy to screw up.
Through the reading of countless threads and never ending Google searches, I have developed a question that I just cant find a clear answer to…….. Using ONLY premium parts, can you build an AR-15 that matches (or surpasses) the reliability/quality of an off the shelve Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, (name your pinnacle brand)?
Before your answer, let me give you some background information. For arguments sake, the assembler would be someone who is mechanically inclined and knows their way around a workshop. They’re a gun enthusiast but experience is limited to shooting and routine maintenance. Lastly, all of the correct tools would be used in the build process.
So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
Can you? Yes, but in the end you will most likely just be buying the parts from Noveske/BCM/Colt/Etc.
Mechanically inclined really doesn't matter. What matters is someone that is going to check the receiver trueness, fit a bolt to the barrel extension, know all the torque values (and use shims to ensure that you stay at the bottom numbers), crown the barrel, check the trueness of the barrel, ensure a tight fit between the barrel extension and receiver, etc, etc. The above is the "secret sauce" IMHO and what separates a hobbyist and a professional.
C4
Awesome responses everyone. Thank you all for your time, I really appreciate it!
As many of you have stated, this question was developed while searching for my next AR. There are a ton of great guns out there but every off the shelve gun was a compromise for me at some point. Im an engineer by trade and a tinkerer at heart so you guys have convinced me to give it a go. Thanks!
@C4
Your correct that every part will be Colt, BCM, Noveske, DD, etc. So my question is, will a novice end user be able to notice those differences such as receiver trueness, etc.? Playing the law of averages, will those thing mainly effect accuracy? Thank you in advance for your insight.
Awesome responses everyone. Thank you all for your time, I really appreciate it!
As many of you have stated, this question was developed while searching for my next AR. There are a ton of great guns out there but every off the shelve gun was a compromise for me at some point. Im an engineer by trade and a tinkerer at heart so you guys have convinced me to give it a go. Thanks!
@C4
Your correct that every part will be Colt, BCM, Noveske, DD, etc. So my question is, will a novice end user be able to notice those differences such as receiver trueness, etc.? Playing the law of averages, will those thing mainly effect accuracy? Thank you in advance for your insight.
Accuracy at distance.
C4
So my question is, will a novice end user be able to notice those differences such as receiver trueness, etc.? Playing the law of averages, will those thing mainly effect accuracy? Thank you in advance for your insight.
One of the Subject Matter Experts here (SMEs) posted that 99% of shooters won't appreciate that. Probably the Camp Perry competitors, and maybe a few boring accuracy nerds like Pappabear and I might realize a gain from it.
I plan to buy the tool at brownells at some point to use in the future.
One of the Subject Matter Experts here (SMEs) posted that 99% of shooters won't appreciate that. Probably the Camp Perry competitors, and maybe a few boring accuracy nerds like Pappabear and I might realize a gain from it.
I plan to buy the tool at brownells at some point to use in the future.
Ya, most folks shoot minute of water buffalo or never venture past 100yds so they probably won't notice. If you can shoot though, you WILL notice such things.
C4
...........Your correct that every part will be Colt, BCM, Noveske, DD, etc. So my question is, will a novice end user be able to notice those differences such as receiver trueness, etc.? Playing the law of averages, will those thing mainly effect accuracy?
Unless you are shooting 600 yards at a High Power match or bench rest shooting with hand loads, you won't notice any difference in a home workshop build.
Unless you are shooting 600 yards at a High Power match or bench rest shooting with hand loads, you won't notice any difference in a home workshop build.
I don't know about that. I have taken some of the best barrels out there, shot them for group at 100yds, then re-crowned them and shot them again. I have seen a quarter inch group improvement.
So paying attention to details like this CAN show themselves in the 100yd-200yd range IMHO (assuming you are a good shooter using good ammo).
C4
I don't know about that. I have taken some of the best barrels out there, shot them for group at 100yds, then re-crowned them and shot them again. I have seen a quarter inch group improvement.
So paying attention to details like this CAN show themselves in the 100yd-200yd range IMHO (assuming you are a good shooter using good ammo).
C4
I agree that an experienced shooter will notice the difference. Most people won't.
I agree that an experienced shooter will notice the difference. Most people won't.
Agree. Crowns are pretty important to a rifle and most AR companies do NOT crown their barrel in house. So they are done via mass production and are not centered to the bore line.
C4
Ya, most folks shoot minute of water buffalo
:sarcastic:
Yeah... the receiver truing thread was an eye opener. Even the best AR manuf's have potential for improvement there. I have one upper that I'd really like to tear down and do this too.
jerrysimons
09-05-14, 11:47
Can we make a sticky thread with all of the proper torque values and securing procedures (e.g. castle nut staking, not loctite).
What thread are you talking about Markm? And what tool?
Thanks
Can we make a sticky thread with all of the proper torque values and securing procedures (e.g. castle nut staking, not loctite).
What thread are you talking about Markm? And what tool?
Thanks
Those are found most everywhere on the net. With that said, you have to realize that SOME of the torque specs are WAY over what they needed to be due to having to align something (like the USGI barrel nut or A2 FH). I much prefer to use shims so that I can go with the bare minimum torque values.
C4
jerrysimons
09-05-14, 12:08
Those are found most everywhere on the net. With that said, you have to realize that SOME of the torque specs are WAY over what they needed to be due to having to align something (like the USGI barrel nut or A2 FH). I much prefer to use shims so that I can go with the bare minimum torque values.
C4
True. I was thinking a thread with revised torque values and best procedures might be beneficial. If I remember from what you said in random other threads you don't put more than 40ft/lbs on a muzzle device and try to stay close to 40ft/lbs on the barrel nut. Thankfully you have not kept secret some of GandRs "secret sauce."
Of coarse the hobbyist will run into a wall not having a stock of barrels, uppers, and bolts on hand to match fitment on each. Thats assuming they even have proper headspace gauges. Is there a tool to test for receiver trueness?
I am still seeing a need for GandR offering armor's work. :)
True. I was thinking a thread with revised torque values and best procedures might be beneficial. If I remember from what you said in random other threads you don't put more than 40ft/lbs on a muzzle device and try to stay close to 40ft/lbs on the barrel nut. Thankfully you have not kept secret some of GandRs "secret sauce."
Of coarse the hobbyist will run into a wall not having a stock of barrels, uppers, and bolts on hand to match fitment on each. Thats assuming they even have proper headspace gauges. Is there a tool to test for receiver trueness?
I am still seeing a need for GandR offering armor's work. :)
Sure, but you need to buy the shims in order to do that (and have a torque wrench). Most aren't going to do any of that.
We use a Starret Tru-Stone to check out receivers. http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-granite
C4
What thread are you talking about Markm? And what tool?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?127822-quot-Truing-quot-an-AR-s-receiver-face
It is quite possible to build a high quality, reliable AR. It would be very hard to do it for less than some of the amazing prices that a Colt or BCM can be had for right now. The difference for me is there is no waste when I build my own, as I choose each part based on my needs. I hate stripping parts off guns to replace them with what I really wanted.
If you want a basic carbine or rifle, it makes sense to buy one built by the name brands. If your desires are a little different than basic, building makes sense.
There is also a certain satisfaction from building your own rifle.
I agree with this %100 ^
OP; If you are building only one rifle it makes no sense to buy all the tools and do it yourself. And if all you want is a basic high quality rifle it makes no sense to build it your self. Why, because of the cost of tools and the learning curve associated. I'm what would be called a hobbyist when it comes to AR builds. It has taken me a while and a hell of a lot of reading to build a rifle that I feel is every bit as good as a factory rifle. So now I've done 7 and I'm still learning.
Being mechanically inclined helps, but there are things they don't tell you in the videos that you should know. As far as tool are concerned, you need a lot of stuff to make it easy and do it right. Good torque wrenches for the barrel nut AND one or more for small screws. Good quality punches, hammers, upper receiver block, Geissele reaction rod (name? Brownnell's has one too), measuring tools, a bench with at least a 5" quality bench vise, head space gauges, bolt disassembly tool, lower receiver vise block, castle nut wrench, barrel nut wrench, a press (can be done without it), Etc.
Can you? Yes, but in the end you will most likely just be buying the parts from Noveske/BCM/Colt/Etc.
Mechanically inclined really doesn't matter. What matters is someone that is going to check the receiver trueness, fit a bolt to the barrel extension, know all the torque values (and use shims to ensure that you stay at the bottom numbers), crown the barrel, check the trueness of the barrel, ensure a tight fit between the barrel extension and receiver, etc, etc. The above is the "secret sauce" IMHO and what separates a hobbyist and a professional.
C4
OP,
Being mechanically inclined is a requirement to do it right. But it is not all you need obviously.
The great thing about ARs is that a lot of people can assemble one (not necessarily well) that will be functional and reasonably reliable for off the shelf parts. To do it well, you need good advice and experience. As others have said, not all parts are created equal. There are known quality manufacturers such as Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske that make great stuff.
You are in the right place to get good advice and information because there is a lot of bad info out there.
If you want to dive in and build your own ARs its a lot of fun. But if you just want a high quality rifle or two, just buy them.
There is a secret sauce that most hobbyist builders don't achieve, but that is for high precision rifles mostly. You can achieve 95% (IMHO) by using high quality parts and good assembly techniques.
BTW - Grant sells really good stuff and I am one of his customers.
Yes and No. If you follow the correct instructions you can build a comparable rifle to the better brands out there, but there are certain tricks and tips you learn from experience that can really enhance the build. For example not going over 25 ft-lbs of torque on the muzzle device can help with accuracy, and there certain techniques that you develop while installing parts that leads to less marring, scratches and lost parts. Just little things like that.What's the advantage of the lower torque values on the muzzle device? If I installed one tighter than that and then shot the gun, would removing it and using a different crush washer for proper alignment with lower torque help restore accuracy?
Wow......... I dont post much but I'm sure glad I did on this one. You guys are awesome!
My dad and I have rebuilt several engines from the ground up so luckily I have any general use tools already at hand. And seeing how I recently graduated college, I think the specialty tools (but mainly knowledge) will be a worth while investment. I'm afraid the addiction is just beginning...............
For this particular build I want a "hard-use" red dot (maybe 1-4), chrome-lined gun. Obviously I want it as accurate as possible but reliability is paramount for the intended use so I doubt I'd notice 0.25 moa. I have access to a great mill that sounds like it would do the trick for truing the receiver face of an accuracy build. But Im assuming that to get the most benefit you'd need to square the barrel extension as well?
What's the advantage of the lower torque values on the muzzle device? If I installed one tighter than that and then shot the gun, would removing it and using a different crush washer for proper alignment with lower torque help restore accuracy?
Im no Phreakish but from a mechanics perspective, over torquing the muzzle device will cause additional stresses in the barrel. Which will effective the way the barrel resonates. Im assuming this is why it effects accuracy.
What's the advantage of the lower torque values on the muzzle device? If I installed one tighter than that and then shot the gun, would removing it and using a different crush washer for proper alignment with lower torque help restore accuracy?
If you put to much pressure on the barrel, you get a condition called "trumpeting" where the end of the barrel opens up.
C4
Wow......... I dont post much but I'm sure glad I did on this one. You guys are awesome!
My dad and I have rebuilt several engines from the ground up so luckily I have any general use tools already at hand. And seeing how I recently graduated college, I think the specialty tools (but mainly knowledge) will be a worth while investment. I'm afraid the addiction is just beginning...............
In order to "acquire" the knowledge, you generally need to be taught by someone with experience (certified armorer for Colt, etc would be a good start). Our MOD IZ Guns travels the country teaching such classes so you might want to look him up.
For this particular build I want a "hard-use" red dot (maybe 1-4), chrome-lined gun. Obviously I want it as accurate as possible but reliability is paramount for the intended use so I doubt I'd notice 0.25 moa. I have access to a great mill that sounds like it would do the trick for truing the receiver face of an accuracy build. But Im assuming that to get the most benefit you'd need to square the barrel extension as well?
When talking about an upper receiver, there are three main parts to pay attention to. The picatinny rail, barrel extension area and internal dimension. Checking the "trueness" of the barrel extension area makes sure that your barrel is not canted one way or another. I am also of the belief that it would put additional stress on the bolt lugs (as it is not lined straight with the BCG).
C4
When talking about an upper receiver, there are three main parts to pay attention to. The picatinny rail, barrel extension area and internal dimension. Checking the "trueness" of the barrel extension area makes sure that your barrel is not canted one way or another. I am also of the belief that it would put additional stress on the bolt lugs (as it is not lined straight with the BCG).
Having handled a significantly higher quantity of upper receivers than most of us, which of these three issues do you see most commonly?
Having handled a significantly higher quantity of upper receivers than most of us, which of these three issues do you see most commonly?
The picatinny receiver not being square and true is what I see the most. If this is off, then the trueness of the receiver extension area is probably off as well.
C4
Are those generally non-issues with higher quality receivers (MUR, etc.)?
Are those generally non-issues with higher quality receivers (MUR, etc.)?
Depends. I know that BCM and Colt pay attention to these kinds of things. I cannot vouch for anyone else (though I know there are others out there).
C4
What's the advantage of the lower torque values on the muzzle device? If I installed one tighter than that and then shot the gun, would removing it and using a different crush washer for proper alignment with lower torque help restore accuracy?
Anything that applies torsional tension on the barrel at the muzzle effects accuracy, especially at 600 yards.
During the ban, we learned that the AR's without a muzzle device shot better than those with flash hiders and muzzle brakes. Since then, those of us who shoot High Power rifle matches apply Loctite Blue to the flash hider and barrel threads and install the flash hider hand tight. The devil is in the details.
vicious_cb
09-05-14, 21:00
Anything that applies torsional tension on the barrel at the muzzle effects accuracy, especially at 600 yards.
During the ban, we learned that the AR's without a muzzle device shot better than those with flash hiders and muzzle brakes. Since then, those of us who shoot High Power rifle matches apply Loctite Blue to the flash hider and barrel threads and install the flash hider hand tight. The devil is in the details.
Yep, nowadays its buy a KAC shim kit and rockset in place. Much better option than locktite.
Failure2Stop
09-05-14, 22:09
Yep, nowadays its buy a KAC shim kit and rockset in place. Much better option than locktite.
Rocksett is definately the way to go.
If you put to much pressure on the barrel, you get a condition called "trumpeting" where the end of the barrel opens up.
C4Is that an elastic situation where it goes away when you release the pressure, or is it inelastic and I should live with it? Not that I'm sure I applied too much torque, but it's possible.
If the elasticity of the material has not been exceeded, it will spring back into place. Remove your muzzle device and shoot the rifle to see if there is any improvement
Thanks for starting this thread, OP. This was on my mind the other day and I was about to start a thread but did not have a chance.
It's a 14.5 shooting 7N6 on irons and I'm not a great shot, so it's unlikely that I'll notice, but I might as well. I was considering replacing the muzzle device with something else anyway, and probably tossing a Ti gas block on there while I'm at it. Thanks for the advice.
I don't know about that. I have taken some of the best barrels out there, shot them for group at 100yds, then re-crowned them and shot them again. I have seen a quarter inch group improvement.
So paying attention to details like this CAN show themselves in the 100yd-200yd range IMHO (assuming you are a good shooter using good ammo).
C4
What procedure, degree, and tools do you employ when crowning barrels? Additionally, do you crown all barrels you assemble?
What procedure, degree, and tools do you employ when crowning barrels? Additionally, do you crown all barrels you assemble?
We establish the center of the bore line and then square the barrel up. Then put a 11 degree crown on the barrel. We then polish the crown (if SS barrel).
We only crown barrels if the customer requests it.
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Thanks for starting this thread, OP. This was on my mind the other day and I was about to start a thread but did not have a chance.
My pleasure man. Im just thankful for all the great responses.
We establish the center of the bore line and then square the barrel up. Then put a 11 degree crown on the barrel. We then polish the crown (if SS barrel).
We only crown barrels if the customer requests it.
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Thanks Grant. Do you check for runout when crowning? Not trying to be difficult- just a question from a potential customer.
Thanks Grant. Do you check for runout when crowning? Not trying to be difficult- just a question from a potential customer.
We use the Manson piloted crowning kit and have never had a single issue. I also do all my own rifles and handgun barrels (.22-.556) with fantastic results.
For the record though, we are NOT trying to sell any services in this thread (nor are we really interested in crowning barrels). I am just explaining how we build personal rifles. :)
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
We use the Manson piloted crowning kit and have never had a single issue. I also do all my own rifles and handgun barrels (.22-.556) with fantastic results.
Well that kit is a cheap one to pick up just to have. :sarcastic:
Well that kit is a cheap one to pick up just to have. :sarcastic:
LOL, well no.
C4
Results of thread: 2 Noveske lowers ordered from G&R Tactical. Thanks everybody!
jerrysimons
09-10-14, 11:23
Grant, Do you only crown the barrels of precision builds using stainless barrels? Or have you had any measurable success in accuracy gain by crowning rack grade chrome-lined barrels? Thank You.
Grant, Do you only crown the barrels of precision builds using stainless barrels? Or have you had any measurable success in accuracy gain by crowning rack grade chrome-lined barrels? Thank You.
We crown everything.
We see success with every barrel we have crowned.
C4
jerrysimons
09-10-14, 12:16
We crown everything.
We see success with every barrel we have crowned.
C4
Thanks! How about loc-titing the barrel extension and gas block like I have heard you mention, precision only? Does BCM's "BCM4" upper receiver, with the tighter spec internal diameter barrel extension sleeve, make this loc-tite method unnecessary in your mind?
Thanks! How about loc-titing the barrel extension and gas block like I have heard you mention, precision only? Does BCM's "BCM4" upper receiver, with the tighter spec internal diameter barrel extension sleeve, make this loc-tite method unnecessary in your mind?
Loctiting the barrel extension is a trick used when you have a loose fit. This is not needed with the BCM M4 upper receivers.
C4
Loctiting the barrel extension is a trick used when you have a loose fit. This is not needed with the BCM M4 upper receivers.
C4
Right :rolleyes: I've seen loose BCMs, LaRues and VLTOR MURs. Granted this is uncommon, it does occur occasionally.
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
justin_247
09-11-14, 00:01
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
http://segafans.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/mother-of-god.jpg
Now THAT is what I call a "matched receiver set."
I'm not a fit and finish guy, but that is very, very nice.
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
I was referring to the fit with the barrel extension in the upper, but that's impressive nonetheless.
EIDT: Of the hundreds of ARs I've assembled over the years, all pivot in the manner demonstrated in your first example (IIRC)- even some "matched sets". I with you would have pivoted the upper on the Hodge, however, to mitigate any speculation that the upper was glued or somehow affixed to the lower.
Like above, you should demonstrate that it does in fact pivot and show close ups of the upper and lower to "prove it," basically. It would be nice to see that set mating to different uppers and lowers to eliminate any potential claims of proprietary-ness of the fit.
Marlin 795
09-11-14, 02:25
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
So by a pivot pin not functioning as a pivot, that's an indicator of quality?
The video above could be could be indicative of concentricity issues between the upper and lower pin holes, a deformed pivot pin detent, a deformed pivot pin detent channel, poor tolerance stack up on the pin (being too tight), burrs \ poor OQC on the pivot pin exterior (creating binding) or a host of other issues.
I'm by no means an SME, but I just can't see how this video demonstrates the quality or reliability of the rifle.
I was referring to the fit with the barrel extension in the upper, but that's impressive nonetheless.
EIDT: Of the hundreds of ARs I've assembled over the years, all pivot in the manner demonstrated in your first example (IIRC)- even some "matched sets". I with you would have pivoted the upper on the Hodge, however, to mitigate any speculation that the upper was glued or somehow affixed to the lower.
I toured HDSI a few days ago. I held a similar rifle (not the same one), and I also saw said "test" performed. No smoke or mirrors. It's exactly what it looks like. The take-out pins slide freely out of the gun, and the upper has no wiggle, nor is it "tight" or "sticky" like I have seen from some manufacturers. It is "like it grew there", as best I can word it. Sortof like the slide/frame on the $4200 Wilson Supergrade I owned. THERE WAS NO WIGGLE! Yet it racked as easily as a loose old warhorse. Same concept with the upper/lower fit I saw at HDSI. No wiggle, but came apart loosey goosey. Now, he also handed me one with 1,000 rounds on it. There was a TINY bit of wiggle, there. This is typical from what I have seen in the past. I had a Noveske that was the same way when I got it. Very tight, but after a few hundred rounds, a TINY bit of wiggle. Hodges guns are very well made, but there isn't any magic involved. Just a lot of "know how", experience, and very tight control over the components that he specs for them.
Jim Hodge does not stop there. The entire weapon feels like that, and even things you as the customer won't be fondling with (unless you take the whole thing down to the last roll-pin), fit that way. The selector switch isn't something people usually get off on, on an M4, but it's positive, crisp, and operates smoothly. I really liked it and it makes shooting support-side easier when you safe the weapon to transition with the knuckle. It's "a little thing", sure, but it's all part of the package.
Then came the Tapco end-plate. Yeah...that. I'm not known for being tactful. I asked him why the hell he used one. We all know Tapco is a dirty word in the AR world, so why even invite the controversy? Why DO THAT TO YOURSELF!? Well, he didn't bother explaining so much as he just handed me a new punch, Tapco end-plate, and another endplate. "Stake some metal"...so I did. The Tapco was ridiculously tough. It was not brittle, but just TOUGH. The other endplate, FWIW, bent easily when one applied force to the loop, and staked like warm butter compared to the Tapco. I really can't say how someone discovers something like this, but I do think Jim has discovered the toughest damn endplate on the planet. ONCE you get the bugger staked, it is good to go.
"The little things" are what I love about Hodge Defense rifles. Noone has mentioned it. Noone has pictured it. Noone even told me about it when I toured his shop. However, take a look inside the upper you have, SMG Lee. Tell me about the cam-pin slot. You see what was done there?
Seriously, I think the parts have been added up $$$-wise ad-nausea, and we came to the conclusion that INCLUDING the federal excise tax, the HDSI guns go for about $300 more on the street than the sum of their parts. The level of fitting that I saw...and that is to say, the uniquely spec'ed components and how it all comes togather, and the care of assembly (for example, I looked at the RE-extension on my DDM4...it is off a few degrees...critical? Nah...but the HDSI's are all 100% straight.) make the gun a masterpiece at that price-point.
To all the critics: Give Jim a call, and schedule a visit. Don't want to do that? Find an HDSI carbine and handle it. "Workmanship" and "build quality" is certainly there.
Will my DDM4 run just fine with its less than stellar upper/lower fit, torqued receiver extension, soft aluminum end-plate, and mushy selector? You BETCHA! However, for a few hundred more, I wish the HDSI had been around when I bought!
Keep an eye on HDSI...MOD2 is going to blow some minds, generate some controversy, and impress the hell out of a lot of people. That thread will have need of a *popcorn* icon!
So by a pivot pin not functioning as a pivot, that's an indicator of quality?
The video above could be could be indicative of concentricity issues between the upper and lower pin holes, a deformed pivot pin detent, a deformed pivot pin detent channel, poor tolerance stack up on the pin (being too tight), burrs \ poor OQC on the pivot pin exterior (creating binding) or a host of other issues.
I'm by no means an SME, but I just can't see how this video demonstrates the quality or reliability of the rifle.
Let's face it, Marlin. A video can only do so much. You're right. The video itself could be shady all sorts of ways. I went and saw for myself, though---it's not.
How exactly can one quantify fit/finish on an item like an M4 with a simple video? These aren't "match guns". They use CHF barrels that are chrome-lined. They are "working guns". You can't just go out and shoot a 0.25 MOA 10-shot group and proclaim the product amazing with cases like this. I hate to use watch, car, or other "coveted item" analogies, but how would I describe to you the difference of rowing through a BMW M3's manual gearbox as compares to the one found in a Ford Fiesta? Could a video capture the smooth, sure feel? I wager that it could not. I wager that someone who had never heard of BMW would be full of all sorts of "WTF do you mean it "feels different"? type critique, upon seeing the "shifting comparison video".
Handle the HDSI and see for yourself. I know many view an M4 like a wrench...either it turns bolts, or it doesn't. However, some ALSO put "pride of ownership" into the equation, and there is "that little bit extra" that you do legitimately get in performance when ALL of the system is fitted and tuned beyond "adequately".
Like above, you should demonstrate that it does in fact pivot and show close ups of the upper and lower to "prove it," basically. It would be nice to see that set mating to different uppers and lowers to eliminate any potential claims of proprietary-ness of the fit.
Hodge Defense Uppers and Lowers are spec'ed to a tolerance within mil-spec. Any mil-spec upper or lower, conversely, that is also in-spec, should fit. Nothing on those guns is "proprietary" in the sense that it cannot be replaced with a quality mil-spec equivalent. Except, something like, of COURSE you cannot put a RAS on the Geissele barrel nut, etc.
Right :rolleyes: I've seen loose BCMs, LaRues and VLTOR MURs. Granted this is uncommon, it does occur occasionally.
The older BCM's maybe, but not the current builds.
C4
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
Excellent!
C4
I was referring to the fit with the barrel extension in the upper, but that's impressive nonetheless.
EIDT: Of the hundreds of ARs I've assembled over the years, all pivot in the manner demonstrated in your first example (IIRC)- even some "matched sets". I with you would have pivoted the upper on the Hodge, however, to mitigate any speculation that the upper was glued or somehow affixed to the lower.
Really no need because SMGLEE NOR Hodge would have pulled a trick like that.
C4
jerrysimons
09-11-14, 09:10
Handled the Hodge Defense rifles the other day and met Jim Hodge. They (and him) are the real deal! If you like the set-up the Mod 1 comes in or are someone who needs a rifle that is set-up well and is not able to or does not want to change a thing, then the Mod 1 is a no-brainier. I venture to say you won't find a rifle with more "build quality" in it, maybe equal, but not more.
And if the Mod 1 doesn't float your boat, just you wait, the AU-Mod 2 is coming! :dance3:
Personally I am not really interested in the Mod 1 since I really only care about the Mod 1 receivers (wish he would just sell stripped, matched receiver sets dang it). I am not going to pay ^2k for a rifle just to strip the lower and put in a BAD-CASS-ST, BAD-Ti-EPS or V7WS alloy pins, Vltor A5 buffer kit, Geissele trigger and UCWRG G23. I also have an aversion to non-continuously-tapered, government-profile barrels, so the upper is so-so for me also. The AU-Mod 2 on the other... I may just be hawking some Noveskes on the cheep to get my hands of those receivers and rail! Man, wish I could say more!
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
Whats funny is that the Hodge thread inspired this one.......... and from what I've read, at some point I'll be traveling to Texas to meet the man himself and buy a MOD2!
Really no need because SMGLEE NOR Hodge would have pulled a trick like that.
C4
Nor would I expect that from either party. My suggestion was directed toward the most cynical critics.
... Uppers and Lowers are spec'ed to a tolerance within mil-spec. Any mil-spec upper or lower, conversely, that is also in-spec, should fit. Nothing on those guns is "proprietary" in the sense that it cannot be replaced with a quality mil-spec equivalent.
Trying to process this and reconcile how it would relate to tolerances, specifications, and clearances.
I have no problem with the idea that manufacturers can build precision rifles with tighter clearances.
But we have very narrow definitions of what constitutes an M4 or AR. Example would be 4150 steel versus potentially superior steels? Same for carpenter 158 versus 9130, etc.
So when does deviating from the standard as an improvement cross the line to being non standard?
No slight to specific mfgs intended. Just reconciling this dialog with all the ongoing debates as to being milspec versus not.
To me one of the defining qualities of the M4 or AR hard use carbine is that you could take boxes of mil-spec parts and assemble them into a functioning rifle without machine work or fitting.
Just my opinion, but if you deviate from that I start thinking race guns, not hard use.
Again no slight any manufacturer's, just trying to sort the hyper focus on the clearances.
Marlin 795
09-11-14, 12:04
The Tapco was ridiculously tough. It was not brittle, but just TOUGH. The other endplate, FWIW, bent easily when one applied force to the loop, and staked like warm butter compared to the Tapco. I really can't say how someone discovers something like this, but I do think Jim has discovered the toughest damn endplate on the planet.
Weirdly enough, completely smoked a very-shitty PSA endplate and did a bunch of relentless searching for a "milspec" material endplate with free shipping, and the TapCo was the only one out there. It is absolutely tough as nails.
Let's face it, Marlin. A video can only do so much. You're right. The video itself could be shady all sorts of ways. I went and saw for myself, though---it's not.
How exactly can one quantify fit/finish on an item like an M4 with a simple video? These aren't "match guns". They use CHF barrels that are chrome-lined. They are "working guns". You can't just go out and shoot a 0.25 MOA 10-shot group and proclaim the product amazing with cases like this. I hate to use watch, car, or other "coveted item" analogies, but how would I describe to you the difference of rowing through a BMW M3's manual gearbox as compares to the one found in a Ford Fiesta? Could a video capture the smooth, sure feel? I wager that it could not. I wager that someone who had never heard of BMW would be full of all sorts of "WTF do you mean it "feels different"? type critique, upon seeing the "shifting comparison video".
Handle the HDSI and see for yourself. I know many view an M4 like a wrench...either it turns bolts, or it doesn't. However, some ALSO put "pride of ownership" into the equation, and there is "that little bit extra" that you do legitimately get in performance when ALL of the system is fitted and tuned beyond "adequately".
Valid point that it's hard to demonstrate, but posting a useless demonstration of "quality" on a public YouTube channel and then sharing it on a forum begs the question of "What's the motive?".
While I realize SMGLee probably didn't have access to the Hodge facility, demonstrating, showing, describing Hodge's production facility, IQC\OQC procedures, talking about Jim Hodge's background \ professional experience, and macro shots of the finish and machining of the parts and demonstrating their features would lend more credibility than showing a competitors rifle flopping around in a vice versus the Hodge rifle sticking shut.
jerrysimons
09-11-14, 13:50
Idk, that was pretty neat, for the pins to be that easy to push out but the receivers to be that snug is impressive. You usually get a tight fit but pins that you have to pound out or a somewhat loose fit for easy push pins. If every rifle Hodge turns out is like the one in the video then it tells you something about the high level of quality control he exacts over his product. Is a tight fit necessary for proper function? Negative. It is nice? Sure. I see it more like showing off your level of quality in assembly given properly specced parts selection.
JBecker 72
09-11-14, 14:35
The older BCM's maybe, but not the current builds.
C4
I received my first of the new style BCM uppers yesterday and I gotta say I'm impressed. The fit with my lower is great. I've never had a tighter fit between the two and the push pins are easy to move as well.
Nothing like what SMGLee posted though.
Nor would I expect that from either party. My suggestion was directed toward the most cynical critics.
Those peoples opinions really don't matter to us.
C4
"Trust, but verify..."
It may very well have been on the up-and-up, but it never hurts to verify. I'd be all over a receiver set in a heart beat.
"Trust, but verify..."
It may very well have been on the up-and-up, but it never hurts to verify. I'd be all over a receiver set in a heart beat.
Agree, but with certain folks, their word is good.
C4
MorphCross
09-11-14, 16:25
Let's face it, discussions on "Sacred cows" in the firearms industry will always invite harsh responses. No one wants to admit that the Oly Arms rifle they purchased sucks, even if they realized how much it sucks after handling Colts/BCMs/DDs and such. As I said before, a person with the "know how" can assemble a great gun out of great parts, a person without the know how can screw up great parts and build a clunker.
The more I see of Carbines built by Hodge Defense, the more I want to get one of his Mod 2 Carbines. He isn't doing anything "magical," rather it appears he is taking the spectrum of tolerances and holding himself to a tight standard that will still work with other brands of the same firearm that hold to similar close standards, but works best with what he has set.
Let's not invoke the whole car analogy thing again. That just leads us down the road of stupid and pointless.
Let's face it, discussions on "Sacred cows" in the firearms industry will always invite harsh responses. No one wants to admit that the Oly Arms rifle they purchased sucks, even if they realized how much it sucks after handling Colts/BCMs/DDs and such. As I said before, a person with the "know how" can assemble a great gun out of great parts, a person without the know how can screw up great parts and build a clunker.
The more I see of Carbines built by Hodge Defense, the more I want to get one of his Mod 2 Carbines. He isn't doing anything "magical," rather it appears he is taking the spectrum of tolerances and holding himself to a tight standard that will still work with other brands of the same firearm that hold to similar close standards, but works best with what he has set.
Let's not invoke the whole car analogy thing again. That just leads us down the road of stupid and pointless.
Exactly. Jim Hodge has forged many friendships within the industry, and has the ability to spec things the way he wants them. He does not deviate outside of mil-spec tolerances, but rather holds things more closely within them, as you say.
Yes, his guns are midlength and not carbine-length gas systems.
Yes, he uses Geissele rails,etc.
So no, technically I guess you cannot take a "box of mil-spec parts" and replace EVERYTHING on one of his rifles.
Through the reading of countless threads and never ending Google searches, I have developed a question that I just cant find a clear answer to…….. Using ONLY premium parts, can you build an AR-15 that matches (or surpasses) the reliability/quality of an off the shelve Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, (name your pinnacle brand)?
Before your answer, let me give you some background information. For arguments sake, the assembler would be someone who is mechanically inclined and knows their way around a workshop. They’re a gun enthusiast but experience is limited to shooting and routine maintenance. Lastly, all of the correct tools would be used in the build process.
So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
The original question: So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
Post 2 answered it, post 3 and 4 fleshed it out, pretty much everything following just says the same thing in various forms.
The original question: So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
Thanks for bringing us back on topic.
My answer is yes assuming one is familiar with the tools and resources to employ. I do not use crush washers on muzzle devices, use torque wrenches, proper punches, jigs, etc., and have the luxury of sample size when fitting uppers to lowers/barrels to barrel extensions (but will us Blue Loctite on the latter if the fit is a tiny bit loose on my precision builds). Further, I use quality components, and perform robust testing procedures.
If I have a putative "bad barrel" or other issues, I'll swap parts or re-think the items utilized in build. Occasionally you'll get tolerance stacking and can sometimes alleviate that by switching components. It's very remedial. Anyone with a modicum of mechanical common sense can assemble a quality AR assuming they're using the right components and tools.
I'm just a hobbyist, BTW, who learned much via this site and fellow gunsmiths.
jerrysimons
09-11-14, 20:04
You can get pretty darn close depending on how you buy. Recognizing there are somethings the hobbiest is limited in accomplishing, there are ways around those limitations.
For example, I can not match headspace of a bolt to fit the barrel extension in the tighter range of tolerances as I do not have a crate of mil-spec bolts laying in my garage to check until one fits perfectly even if I had the gauge set. So you have a few options. 1) Buy a barrel and a bolt together from a company that will match headspacing from the factory. Noveske has sold barrels and bolt combos like this. V7WS will do it if you buy a barrel and a bolt together. 2) Buy a good barrel and send it to a company who will match one of their bolts to it. 3) If you just need headspaced checked but not necessarily matched you can buy headspacing go, no-go gauges or send you bolt, barrel or both in to Rainier Arms https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/browse&category=gunsmithing&keyword=&pagenumber=1 .
I suppose you could buy an actual headspace gauge set, a handful of good bolts and hope you get lucky, then keep the others as spares or for other builds, but that is getting a little outside the cost benefit of building it yourself and the cost tool investment probably outweighing its return, how many rifles are you going to build?
BCMs stripped "BCM4" uppers with their tighter-end-of-milspec-range-specification for the barrel extentsion sleeve gives the home builder a little of that "secret sauce" Hodge Defesnse and other companies are big on. Granted it my not be the "thermal fit" (note: not press fit) that Jim Hodge talks about (mentioned in the other thread) but it is better than buying elsewhere and hoping you get lucky since you can trust BCMs QC. Hopefully Hodge will sell his Mod 1 uppers and lowers at some point and give us more options.
As for upper and lower fit, if you care, you can try to order a matched set from someone, maybe Mega? Many lowers now have those derelin tipped tensioning screws that might give you a snug feel but I wouldn't worry about this too much since "secret sauce" and function overlap, in my book anyway. If you want the kind of fit shown in the Hodge video I don't think you can do it yourself without getting lucky or just ponying up for a Mod 1. Again it would be great if Jim would sell us his receivers.
Maybe someone else can come in and address any other "secret sauce" areas of a rifle but I think the two major ones are bolt matching to barrel and barrel extension fit to upper receiver (assuming of coarse you properly assembly the upper, which is a feat for some but generally not difficult). Grant addressed barrel crowning and it is definitely outside the scope of the hobbyist, but at the same time, which companies are ensuring the muzzle is properly re-crowned on rack-grade chrome barrels? None that I have heard. And if it is a must for a stainless barrel, work around it and buy a barrel from a company that ensures the muzzle is properly crowned.
As for the fit and smoothness of the selector, I have yet to put a BAD CASS-ST in a lower that didn't feel awesome, same goes for a Geissele trigger or other drop-in lower parts, there is no secret sauce there.
Thanks for bringing us back on topic.
My answer is yes assuming one is familiar with the tools and resources to employ. I do not use crush washers on muzzle devices, use torque wrenches, proper punches, jigs, etc., and have the luxury of sample size when fitting uppers to lowers/barrels to barrel extensions (but will us Blue Loctite on the latter if the fit is a tiny bit loose on my precision builds). Further, I use quality components, and perform robust testing procedures.
If I have a putative "bad barrel" or other issues, I'll swap parts or re-think the items utilized in build. Occasionally you'll get tolerance stacking and can sometimes alleviate that by switching components. It's very remedial. Anyone with a modicum of mechanical common sense can assemble a quality AR assuming they're using the right components and tools.
I'm just a hobbyist, BTW, who learned much via this site and fellow gunsmiths.
It really depends on who the manufacturer is. Can you build a gun better than the best companies in the INDUSTRY? No, I don't think you can.
With that said, can you build a good quality AR? Yes (assuming you have been shown proper ways, have correct tools, etc).
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Through the reading of countless threads and never ending Google searches, I have developed a question that I just cant find a clear answer to…….. Using ONLY premium parts, can you build an AR-15 that matches (or surpasses) the reliability/quality of an off the shelve Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, (name your pinnacle brand)?
Before your answer, let me give you some background information. For arguments sake, the assembler would be someone who is mechanically inclined and knows their way around a workshop. They’re a gun enthusiast but experience is limited to shooting and routine maintenance. Lastly, all of the correct tools would be used in the build process.
So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
It really depends on who the manufacturer is. Can you build a gun better than the best companies in the INDUSTRY? No, I don't think you can.
With that said, can you build a good quality AR? Yes (assuming you have been shown proper ways, have correct tools, etc).
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Would concur on the inability to exceed high end manufacturer's products, but in terms of the OP's matching expectations statement, I'd say yes with a qualification that it depends on said expectations. I don't think most are going to build an ARs with bolts that match durability of, say, KAC using readily available components. Most (again using the proper knowledge and tools) can build an AR that will match BCM's, Noveske's or DD's quality principally due to the fact that their components are readily available to the end user. Now you, of course, will not have a warranty on the entire package. Precision ARs can be built to exceed the performance of highly regarded ARs in terms of accuracy, but may result in compromises elsewhere. For example, using a Kreiger barrel with a 223 match chamber will likely result in a serious tack driver using the appropriate loads, but is obviously not the correct choice for 5.56. Pick a Compass Lake chambered Wylde/Krieger barrel and you can shoot 223 and 5.56 with very good precision, but may (emphasis on may) run into potential problems WRT to optimal gas pressures when using a suppressor. One has to know what components and parameters to select for each specific application.
PatrioticDisorder
09-11-14, 21:37
Would concur on the inability to exceed high end manufacturer's products, but in terms of the OP's matching expectations statement, I'd say yes with a qualification that it depends on said expectations. I don't think most are going to build an ARs with bolts that match durability of, say, KAC using readily available components. Most (again using the proper knowledge and tools) can build an AR that will match BCM's, Noveske's or DD's quality principally due to the fact that their components are readily available to the end user. Now you, of course, will not have a warranty on the entire package. Precision ARs can be built to exceed the performance of highly regarded ARs in terms of accuracy, but may result in compromises elsewhere. For example, using a Kreiger barrel with a 223 match chamber will likely result in a serious tack driver using the appropriate loads, but is obviously not the correct choice for 5.56. Pick a Compass Lake chambered Wylde/Krieger barrel and you can shoot 223 and 5.56 with very good precision, but may (emphasis on may) run into potential problems WRT to optimal gas pressures when using a suppressor. One has to know what components and parameters to select for each specific application.
I've been going back and forth on building my own "dream AR(s)" or just buying a KAC mod 2 upper, but I think I'm going to build. I'm not sure if it will "exceed" any one particular manufacturer's builds, it will however put a smile on my face and I never said it would be cheap either. I've been having an internal debate on specific components to use, but if my stamps were back and funds were available today, this is what the builds will look like.
Lower:
AX556
Colt ala carte parts kit
BAD ETP
BAD-ASS 45 degree
BCM gunfighter mod 2 grip
Geissele SD-E Or SD3G
LWRC Ambi QD end plate
VLTOR A5 (with either springco green, tubbs CS or brownells CS spring and appropriate weight buffer, experimentation)
Magpul SL MOE stock
Upper:
VLTOR MUR
LMT Enhanced BCG W/ enhanced bolt (will have WMD NIB-X coat the carrier)
LWRC nickel cam pin
JP enhanced gas rings
LW m67 solid firing pin retaining pin
Raptor charging handle
Magpul MBUS pro front & rear BUIS
BCM KMR
Surefire SOCOM 3p FH (I have several SOCOM cans incoming)
SLR sentry gas block w/ set screw pinned and black nitrite gas tube
Barrel:
I have 4 AX556 lowers, 3 have pending form 1s so 4 different barrels will be used
1. 16" Noveske CHF barrel
2. 14.5" Noveske CHF barrel (SBR)
3. 11.5" spikes LW CHF barrel
4. 10.3" DD S2W .300 Blkout barrel
I'll likely cerakote all 4, I'm likely tungsten/sniper grey and/or dark bronze... Perhaps cerakote the rail a darker color.
That is a pretty impressive video. I haven't seen that kind of fit before. Not sure it's necessary, but it is impressive.
This forum has been a godsend for me. ARs are easy to assemble, but there is so much more to it if you want to do it right. Of course, I had to redo most of my stuff more than once, but I learned from this forum. Thanks.
I'll never be able to assemble a rifle as nice as the Hodge, but I've had a lot of fun learning how to get the basics right.
I will just leave this here.......
Link to a demo of build quality (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmYULfaqFfA&list=UUHozg_za_Ba7IRN4bjTJ9Pg)
Rayrevolver
09-12-14, 06:58
The original question: So what are your thoughts? Can a self-built rifle match the expectations of the highly regarded brands or is there a “secret sauce” that will always be missing?
The only thing I can bring to the table here is an analogy to supersport race engine building. A manufacturer can pick and measure 100 pistons so he can find 4 that are exactly the same. Same for all the other parts.
Think about how expensive it would be for YOU to buy 10 MUR Uppers and 10 barrels and then measure them. AND you would need to understand what the hell you were doing.
I read here that Grant can match a barrel and bolt (something Noveske can do also). That is hard for a civvy to do unless he buys a crap load of bolts...
The only thing I can bring to the table here is an analogy to supersport race engine building. A manufacturer can pick and measure 100 pistons so he can find 4 that are exactly the same. Same for all the other parts.
Think about how expensive it would be for YOU to buy 10 MUR Uppers and 10 barrels and then measure them. AND you would need to understand what the hell you were doing.
I read here that Grant can match a barrel and bolt (something Noveske can do also). That is hard for a civvy to do unless he buys a crap load of bolts...
Any knows the specs for each barrel length and has the gauges.
C4
PatrioticDisorder
09-12-14, 07:14
The only thing I can bring to the table here is an analogy to supersport race engine building. A manufacturer can pick and measure 100 pistons so he can find 4 that are exactly the same. Same for all the other parts.
Think about how expensive it would be for YOU to buy 10 MUR Uppers and 10 barrels and then measure them. AND you would need to understand what the hell you were doing.
I read here that Grant can match a barrel and bolt (something Noveske can do also). That is hard for a civvy to do unless he buys a crap load of bolts...
This whole talk of matching a bolt to barrel, upper to lower, barrel to upper sounds like a lot of voodoo. Buy quality components and you'll get components that are spec'd properly. I'm really not sure what the benefit is of having an upper sit on a lower after popping the take down pin... Kinda goes into the "cool party trick" in my book. Reliability, durability, accuracy, ergos & weight are all that really matter in my book as far as measuring quality.
The only thing I can bring to the table here is an analogy to supersport race engine building. A manufacturer can pick and measure 100 pistons so he can find 4 that are exactly the same. Same for all the other parts.
Think about how expensive it would be for YOU to buy 10 MUR Uppers and 10 barrels and then measure them. AND you would need to understand what the hell you were doing.
I read here that Grant can match a barrel and bolt (something Noveske can do also). That is hard for a civvy to do unless he buys a crap load of bolts...
I think a lot of us have lost focus on the OP's question - 'that matches (or surpasses) the reliability/quality of an off the shelve (sp)..... Sure, you could consider a Roush Mustang an 'off the shelf Mustang' since you can buy it off the showroom floor, but is it really? You are talking a pretty high end build before any manufacturer is going to go to pick of the litter bolts, matching to get ideal headspace, not an off the shelf item as it would be commonly perceived.
Re the racing engines - we (kids and grandkids drove) used to race speedway (dirt oval) go-karts, one of the biggest chuckles I got one year was a noted builder bragging up an engine I had built in my shop - no milling machine, just a surface plate and a drill mounted hone - as his own, just because I had put a flywheel shroud from one of his builds on it. LMAO. I know it is not NASCAR or NHRA, but we regularly cranked those single cylinder flathead Briggs mower engines 7,000+. (okay, regularly 6,500+)
So, yes, I believe a home builder can easily equal or surpass a mass manufactured off-the shelf AR pattern rifle's performance. Something out of the custom shop - probably not.
jerrysimons
09-12-14, 16:03
I think a lot of us have lost focus on the OP's question - 'that matches (or surpasses) the reliability/quality of an off the shelve (sp)..... Sure, you could consider a Roush Mustang an 'off the shelf Mustang' since you can buy it off the showroom floor, but is it really? You are talking a pretty high end build before any manufacturer is going to go to pick of the litter bolts, matching to get ideal headspace, not an off the shelf item as it would be commonly perceived.
Re the racing engines - we (kids and grandkids drove) used to race speedway (dirt oval) go-karts, one of the biggest chuckles I got one year was a noted builder bragging up an engine I had built in my shop - no milling machine, just a surface plate and a drill mounted hone - as his own, just because I had put a flywheel shroud from one of his builds on it. LMAO. I know it is not NASCAR or NHRA, but we regularly cranked those single cylinder flathead Briggs mower engines 7,000+. (okay, regularly 6,500+)
So, yes, I believe a home builder can easily equal or surpass a mass manufactured off-the shelf AR pattern rifle's performance. Something out of the custom shop - probably not.
Good point on emphasizing off the shelf. All the "secret sauce" stuff discussed, namely a matched bolt to barrel extension (not just checked to be in mil-spec range but matched to the tighter end of mil-spec) and a barrel fit tight in the upper are not done in most off the shelf rifles. You are not going to get that stuff from Colt or DD. You will get a tight upper fit from BCM and Hodge Defense but you probably are not going to get a matched bolt. Noveske has matched bolts to barrels (stainless at least), unknown about their barrel to upper fit. I don't think any of these companies re-crown rack grade chrome-lined barrels, stainless barrels maybe but not chromed. So where does that leave us?
If you are building a chrome-lined blaster why can't you build it better than a rack grade rifle or at least as good? Isn't a BCM4 upper better than a slightly looser fitting but still in spec upper from, say, Colt? I think yes. So it comes down to proper assembly procedures and torque values.
If you checked all of the "secret sauce" boxes mentioned in this thread you are well beyond "off the shelf" or rack grade and well into a custom, specialized build, using build techniques usually saved for ultra precision builds.
I was just thinking about all the pieces that go into a great build. It seems like there are at least three goals.
1. Accuracy
2. Reliability
3. X Factor - fit and finish etc.
Where can a hobbyist get the most bang by concentrating dollars and effort? Would the upper receiver bolt to barrel extension fit be the most critical affecting both accuracy and reliability? Then what next?
Maybe it cannot be done that way, but I was looking for what can be done beside just buying good parts and assembling them well.
jerrysimons
09-12-14, 17:33
The hobbyist can get a tighter upper to barrel fit by buying a BCM4 upper and can get a bolt matched to barrel depending on what/where you buy. Noveske comes to mind but I haven't seen them offer a barrel and matched bolt combo in a while, don't think they ever offered a chrome-lined barrel with matched bolt. It can be done, certainly at the very least you can get a bolt that has been headspaced to the barrel even if it is not "matched".
After buying the right parts the hobbyist at that point just has to assemble the rifle properly.
Some things off the top of my head.
Upper having primary bore, machined in line with top rail.
A bolt matched to an extension? Meh... Perhaps??? I believe lug setback is something like .0015 after the first few shots. The lugs next to the extractor pocket always set back a little different from the rest. (They actually move when you machine that pocket by about .0002)
I could see a billet being "More accurate" in a sense, as the forgings move a good bit when being machined as well. They often taco out in the middle, and can shrink end to end by .003 It can be worked around however.
I think if you have a manufacturer who is hand selecting parts out of a large lot, they could build a rifle beyond what a customer could. Having the ability to root through hundreds of parts to select a group of parts is far beyond what a customer has at their disposal.
With that being said, I have handled and shot some guns that were home built, and they were much nicer than some from common distributors.
If there were real gun guys on this forum, we'd be seeing comparisons to limited production, semi-custom and custom rifles instead of cars. We would be discussing limited production, semi-custom and custom ARs, instead of sneering at fit, finish and attention to detail. Sure, the AR was designed to take a beating, get thrown in the mud and still shoot badguys in the face, but the same was true for the Mausers & Springfields our grandfathers (and great grandfathers) had made into some fine rifles, many without compromising what made those rifles great in the first place.
Many of you don't realize that you are the first generation to see truly customized self-loading rifles with a greater support from the aftermarket than we've ever had before. Carpe Diem! Take the opportunity to build something wonderful- or have something wonderful built for you by a master. If you've got an idea to try, try it. You'll regret not trying it more than you'll regret giving it a go
If there were real gun guys on this forum
What's a "real" gun guy?
If there were real gun guys on this forum, we'd be seeing comparisons to limited production, semi-custom and custom rifles
What, exactly, would your definition of the above be? I thought we'd hit all of those points while discussing Noveske rifles, homebrews using top shelf components (Noveske, VLTOR, LMT, BCM, DD... etc. etc.), and Hodge's new rifles. Please, do enlightenment us common folk to the way of the "real gun guys."
MorphCross
09-14-14, 16:47
I assume that MistWolf is referring to people who have tooling and fixtures to take stock offerings and rework them into preferred custom designs. Many "Small arms Guys" could, have, or do make a living as professional machinists. They have an education in modern spring steels, alloys, and manufacturing to know a good formula and go from there. The point is most are already in the industry or they don't bother showing off their work as for them it isn't about external validation, just personal satisfaction with a job done well.
Most of us would fall under Arms enthusiasts.
I assume that MistWolf is referring to people who have tooling and fixtures to take stock offerings and rework them into preferred custom designs. Many "Small arms Guys" could, have, or do make a living as professional machinists. They have an education in modern spring steels, alloys, and manufacturing to know a good formula and go from there. The point is most are already in the industry or they don't bother showing off their work as for them it isn't about external validation, just personal satisfaction with a job done well.
Most of us would fall under Arms enthusiasts.
Or professional users.
After owning an S&W , Mosberg,, Dpms. Windham then a Colt and a BCM the COLT and BCM are significantly of better quality, more accurate and constructed with better attention to detail. IMO.
Now the cost differential is insignificant between them
The hypnotized never lie
What's a "real" gun guy?
It's kind of like pornography, you can't define it, but you'll know it when you see it.
In case you don't know the phrase - to the general public, Justice Potter Stewart may be best known for a quotation, or a fragment thereof, from his opinion in the obscenity case of Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964). Stewart wrote in his short concurrence that "hard-core pornography" was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it." Usually dropped from the quote is the remainder of that sentence, "and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." Justice Stewart went on to defend the movie in question (Louis Malle's The Lovers) against further censorship. (wiki)
The hypnotized never lie
As a foot note for your general knowledge, it should be 'the hypnotized never knowingly lie.'
For a brief time way back when forensic hypnosis was an up and coming law enforcement investigative technique. Unfortunately some of the practitioners used ineffective questioning techniques which implanted memories in witnesses memories through a process called confabulation. Confabulation is an unconscious process in which a person who is trying to be helpful unknowingly, without malice, 'fills' in the gaps.
It is a big problem during normal investigations, if you ask a robbery witness 'was the guy taller than me' that begs a yes or no answer, the witness many times doesn't really know, but their mind, wanting closure, provides an answer. If the witness answers 'yes, taller' it is very likely that when you bring in the midget who confessed to the robbery the witness will insist that the midget is not the robber.
The memories are just that solid, thus the number of folks convicted on eyewitness testimony that are now being turned loose on DNA evidence.
It is even worse under hypnosis, a Nebraska case in 1981 (State v. Palmer) recognized this and essentially held that witness testimony under hypnosis is tainted.
We went from build quality, to pornography, to hypnosis in three posts? Are we off the subject 26_Inf?
We went from build quality, to pornography, to hypnosis in three posts? Are we off the subject 26_Inf?
Yes, we were, a week ago.
Just answering questions and correcting misconceptions.
'Gun Guy' - I think 'It's kind of like pornography, you can't define it, but you'll know one when you see one' seems to be a good answer.
An even better one might be 'one who looks down one's nose at those whom he believes have lesser knowledge or experience because it doesn't match his.' In other words an effete snob.
Hypnotism, well pooh, I had to use my hard earned knowledge for something.
Gun guys are effete snobs? Well, better that than to be guilty of some of the car analogies I've seen *SHUDDER*
Or professional users.
Many professional users are not "real gun guys". They are face-shooters, so to speak. They do not trouble-shoot, they do not R&D, they T&E and if it fails, they throw it in the trash, so to speak. That's like saying Warren Buffet is a paint expert. No...he just makes a ton of money off of stocks involving companies that sell paint.
But...we really are arguing semantics and intangibles.
jerrysimons
09-20-14, 19:11
Perhapse the most quantifiable metric of "build quality" is precision and accuracy. Maybe the most important but not as easily quantifiable metric is realiability and durability.
Safe to say a 6920 defines a quality rack grade rifle, as to where to go from there gets more difficult to define using different companies as standards. I suppose it all comes back to the question of parameters.
Gun guys are effete snobs? Well, better that than to be guilty of some of the car analogies I've seen *SHUDDER*
You know what I'm talking about.
You know what I'm talking about.
Just look for the humor in it. That's what I do
Just answering questions and correcting misconceptions.
'Gun Guy' - I think 'It's kind of like pornography, you can't define it, but you'll know one when you see one' seems to be a good answer.
An even better one might be 'one who looks down one's nose at those whom he believes have lesser knowledge or experience because it doesn't match his.' In other words an effete snob.
Hypnotism, well pooh, I had to use my hard earned knowledge for something.
I didn't see any misconceptions cleared, or any wisdom shared.
And this, "An even better one might be 'one who looks down one's nose at those whom he believes have lesser knowledge or experience because it doesn't match his.' In other words an effete snob." Are you trying to be funny? I cannot tell, sometimes people make farcical and nonsensical statements in an attempt to be humorous.
"Hypnotism, well pooh, I had to use my hard earned knowledge for something." Well, I hope you didn't strain yourself memorizing that earth shattering gem.
ScottsBad -
How about you just PM me if you have any further problems with what I post.
Thanks,
Dan
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