View Full Version : Melonite
trackmagic
09-03-14, 22:19
There are a few manufacturers that I consider "top tier". They are probably the same ones the people on this site would put into that category.
My question is are their any top tier companies that make barrels with Melonite? As far as I know S&W does not sell barrels. I think I want to try one out.
Daniel Defense's S2W profile barrels are Salt Bath Nitride, which is the same thing as melonite. That profile can only be found in certain configurations though.
Sionics might be your best bet.
MorphCross
09-03-14, 23:16
Don't forget about AR15 Performance barrels (http://ar15performance.com/barrels).
www.sionicsweaponsystems.com has 16" medium contour and LW barrels as well as an 11.5" barrel. We have had very good accuracy with these barrels.
www.sionicsweaponsystems.com has 16" medium contour and LW barrels as well as an 11.5" barrel. We have had very good accuracy with these barrels.
What's your experience with longevity? I'm very interested in the 16 inch lightweight melonite Sionics barrel. How does it stand up to high round counts compared to the current crop of, say, double-thickness chrome lined hammer-forged barrels?
Yeah. That would be interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a melonite barrel in person.
There are a few manufacturers that I consider "top tier". They are probably the same ones the people on this site would put into that category.
My question is are their any top tier companies that make barrels with Melonite? As far as I know S&W does not sell barrels. I think I want to try one out.
Primary Weapons Systems. PWS is known for their piston ARs. But they do sell some DI parts including melonite barrels (which I believe they call Isonite).
The only 2 companies I completely trust for melonite AR barrels are PWS and AR Performance. That being said, I am planning to try a Sionics melonite barrel soon. My guess is that they are good too.
Joe Mamma
Yeah. That would be interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a melonite barrel in person.
I know quite a few people with Huldras, which has a melonite barrel. I know that they're quite accurate, in fact Huldra guarantees 1 MOA, but my only knowledge of their longevity comes from an earlier test gun, the one that they shot for 5000+ rounds of 5.45 without cleaning. AFAIK, the barrel held up well but I haven't heard anything recent.
What's your experience with longevity? I'm very interested in the 16 inch lightweight melonite Sionics barrel. How does it stand up to high round counts compared to the current crop of, say, double-thickness chrome lined hammer-forged barrels?
I'd like to know this as well. I have a melonited barrel by another mfg, but it was never intended for hard use. I would like to know how it would hold up though.
However, I have been looking hard at Sionics for a rebarrel on a hard use rifle.
There are a few manufacturers that I consider "top tier". They are probably the same ones the people on this site would put into that category.
My question is are their any top tier companies that make barrels with Melonite? As far as I know S&W does not sell barrels. I think I want to try one out.
DD would be one of the main ones.
C4
ColtSeavers
09-04-14, 09:56
Regarding melonited 4150CMV barrels' longevity, AR Performance states that:
Melonite treated barrels have proven to last 30% longer than chromelined barrels and*are more accurate.
Melonite treated barrels have proven to near twice as long as stainless barrels and*are just as* accurate.
The 4150 11595E steel Melonite(QPQ) treated barrels we sell will last twice as long as stainless barrels-*of the stainless. The *final finish meets or exceeds stainless steel corrosion resistance.* 416 stainless barrels .980" in diameter do not meet the 2:1 burst/hoop strength safety ratio required by the firearms industry standards in anything larger than the 5.56. We only use the stronger 4150 11595 E barrel steel in all of our barrels.
I'm sure some quick googling would also show more longevity testing and corrosion resistance results as well.
No hands on experience but BA has been getting good reviews too, atleast from what i've seen. I've been very interested in melonite since reading that long thread both for the extreme corrosion resistance and the reported durability over chrome. Here's an interesting post by Phreakish in response to my asking if BCM had any plans for melonite barrels:
Can't comment on plans for the future.
As far as nitride, it's not easy to accomplish and in most cases the result is as good as, maybe even slightly better than, a typical forged and chrome lined barrel. The greatest benefit of nitride is the ability to protect and coat every part of the barrel, including the gas port. However, nitride treatment of an assembly is usually not done due to the molten salts getting between parts and continually weeping out over time. If the assembly isn't coated, then the gas port is likely going to be drilled after the nitride treated barrel is mated to an extension, in which case we lose a huge benefit of nitride and we're back to a part that's equivalent to a chrome lined barrel. That's not insignificant though, since chrome plating processes are finding their way ever closer to the center of the EPA's crosshairs and we'll need something to replace chrome when the day comes.
Nitride treatment is also significantly different than the types of treatments the typical materials are given, so it would take some real engineering to ensure that the processes and materials are compatible to truly improve upon the hammer forged and chrome lined barrel, rather than degrade or simply meet the same performance threshold.
TL;DR: There's a lot more to it than just tossing a barrel cluster in a salt tank. There's definitely benefits to be had, but it needs to be done right and even then the result is likely to be equivalent to and not hugely better than a chrome lined barrel, at least while chrome is still viable.
constructor
09-06-14, 10:34
Lietner Wise before it changed to LWRC was one of the first to use Melonite on a rifle barrel. Also one of the first to use 9310 to make bolts. I found several reports online around 2005 where he had submitted test results to the military. The results were impressive when 4150 CMV 11595e steel was used.
I would like to see it first hand or videos of mag dump after mag dump until the barrel burst and another test of normal fire rates but for endurance rather than heating them until they fail.
Stainless barrels do not meet the 2:1 safety factor for strength needed around the chamber in a 5.56 let alone larger cartridges. Many use a maximum yield strength of 416 to calculate it but the barrels as used are only 28-32 rockwell and do not come close to the published max yield numbers. The mil specs 4150 11595e for a reason.
In the end you will spend $40,000 in ammo to wear out a $200 barrel.
I have a Ballistic Advantage barrel, they say it's 4150CMV and it's nitrided. It's 5.45x39 and I've shot 7N6 out of it and then not cleaned it for a couple days with no signs of rust, but I haven't done the same test in a chromed barrel so I can't really compare it to anything else.
So...I guess no experience to report on throat erosion, gas port erosion, or other longevity issues on the Sionics melonite barrels.
I have 10,000+ on my Noveske 16 inch mid length with no noticeable loss of performance, and close to that on my BCM 11.5. I'm pretty comfortable with chrome lining performance, but I'd sure go melonite in general and Sionics in particular if it offers even close to similar performance.
What's the common perception of Aero Precision barrels?
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
BrigandTwoFour
09-07-14, 11:05
What's the common perception of Aero Precision barrels?
I think they're too new to the market for any real solid opinions to be out there. I've been working on a 308 project, and have been stuck between a Fulton 18.5" chrome lined (known quality), or one of Mega's melonited 308 barrels. There just doesn't seem to be much information about anyone's melonite barrels out there.
ramairthree
09-07-14, 12:58
I have two builds with the Melonite / Black Nitride barrels, a cheap cromoly build, chrome lined builds, and a stainless.
The last M4 I had (8 years), had two barrels replacements for throat erosion, and I believe a total of three bolt lugs off two different bolts.
But I did not think I had a particularly high round count. Definitely not 40K between barrel changes. And did not kill the EoTech 552 or A.R.M.S. rear sight. PEQ got updated about 6 years in, but never got in the same abuse and round count the last two years as the first 6.
All green tip.
I suspect many factors can change barrel wear for a given round count and some materials offer advantages others don't in those. If I went through 4K rounds in two days while constantly being poured and a wipe down or two vs. I went through 8K rounds in a year at 1K a day spread out and thoroughly cleaned in between may result in same amount of wear.
Long term experienced armorers I would love to hear your opinions on the standard Colt M4 barrel wear regarding this,
but I am not sure if people have wracked up the same pool of experience in sheer numbers and round counts with other materials.
Constructor: Do you have a copy of that report to post? I'm interested to see what it has to say about the things Hmac touched on like throat erosion and gas port erosion.
I tried a quick search on google but only dug up a thread on weaponeer on Hatcher's Notebook. I went straight down to where Tennifer and Melonite were discussed and reading it got me curious... The guys says the surface needs to be precisely machined and thoroughly polished prior to treatment and says that in the past, barrels had to be lapped 3 additional times. I assume this is due to the extreme hardness of the resulting surface and length of time you would need to break it in if it weren't prepped like so. Is this still the case or has the process significantly shortened with today's technology? Secondly, how many steps does it add to the manufacturing process compared to chromed and parked barrels? I assume there are already additional steps like assembling, disassembling, tracking, treating and reassembling just to treat the barrel post-porting?
constructor
09-07-14, 22:21
Constructor: Do you have a copy of that report to post? I'm interested to see what it has to say about the things Hmac touched on like throat erosion and gas port erosion.
I tried a quick search on google but only dug up a thread on weaponeer on Hatcher's Notebook. I went straight down to where Tennifer and Melonite were discussed and reading it got me curious... The guys says the surface needs to be precisely machined and thoroughly polished prior to treatment and says that in the past, barrels had to be lapped 3 additional times. I assume this is due to the extreme hardness of the resulting surface and length of time you would need to break it in if it weren't prepped like so. Is this still the case or has the process significantly shortened with today's technology? Secondly, how many steps does it add to the manufacturing process compared to chromed and parked barrels? I assume there are already additional steps like assembling, disassembling, tracking, treating and reassembling just to treat the barrel post-porting?
No, that was 3 or 4 computers ago.
The stuff about extra polishing and lapping is for match grade and I mean real bench rest rifles not combat, hunting or even precision tactical rifles. Most of the barrels I see with the right loads and shooter will shoot 1/2Moa pretty easy. Plain old button pulled finish but in some of the straightest bored barrels in the industry.
The only extra step is making sure the extension is torqued to spec after the Melonite process.
No, that was 3 or 4 computers ago.
The stuff about extra polishing and lapping is for match grade and I mean real bench rest rifles not combat, hunting or even precision tactical rifles. Most of the barrels I see with the right loads and shooter will shoot 1/2Moa pretty easy. Plain old button pulled finish but in some of the straightest bored barrels in the industry.
The only extra step is making sure the extension is torqued to spec after the Melonite process.
Thanks!
Quick clarification on your last statement... So you nitride as an assembly -- index pin, extension and barrel all together, and check/re-torque post nitriding? Or do you only mate an extension after treatment, selecting one that indexes at proper torque-spec, with the port? Im curious as i recall reading park still being ideal for the extension. That, plus, seeing BA using Nib coated extensions on some barrels.
trackmagic
09-08-14, 00:27
By the way, where do you guys see DD has Salt Nitrated/Melonite barrels? All the ones I am looking at are chrome. I am looking for a 14.5":
M4 Profile (https://danieldefense.com/cold-hammer-forged-barrels/14-5-inch-chf-barrels/14-5-5-56mm-1-7-m4-profile.html)
Government Profile (https://danieldefense.com/cold-hammer-forged-barrels/14-5-inch-chf-barrels/14-5-5-56mm-1-7-gov-profile.html)
Cincinnatus
09-08-14, 01:27
By the way, where do you guys see DD has Salt Nitrated/Melonite barrels? All the ones I am looking at are chrome. I am looking for a 14.5":
M4 Profile (https://danieldefense.com/cold-hammer-forged-barrels/14-5-inch-chf-barrels/14-5-5-56mm-1-7-m4-profile.html)
Government Profile (https://danieldefense.com/cold-hammer-forged-barrels/14-5-inch-chf-barrels/14-5-5-56mm-1-7-gov-profile.html)
Their S2W (strength to weight) barrel is SBN. It is an 18" heavy but tapered profile. They do not currently carry 14.5" SBN barrells.
Constructor: Do you have a copy of that report to post? I'm interested to see what it has to say about the things Hmac touched on like throat erosion and gas port erosion.
I tried a quick search on google but only dug up a thread on weaponeer on Hatcher's Notebook. I went straight down to where Tennifer and Melonite were discussed and reading it got me curious... The guys says the surface needs to be precisely machined and thoroughly polished prior to treatment and says that in the past, barrels had to be lapped 3 additional times. I assume this is due to the extreme hardness of the resulting surface and length of time you would need to break it in if it weren't prepped like so. Is this still the case or has the process significantly shortened with today's technology? Secondly, how many steps does it add to the manufacturing process compared to chromed and parked barrels? I assume there are already additional steps like assembling, disassembling, tracking, treating and reassembling just to treat the barrel post-porting?
Yes. I believe in the nitride process, but just because a barrel is "melonited" doesn't mean that it's melonited well. I see the possibility for significant variation from mfgr to mfgr. Sionics has a great price point for their barrels. I'd be curious to know how those barrels stand up in hard and extended use. Haven't seen a word written about that.
constructor
09-08-14, 08:32
Thanks!
Quick clarification on your last statement... So you nitride as an assembly -- index pin, extension and barrel all together, and check/re-torque post nitriding? Or do you only mate an extension after treatment, selecting one that indexes at proper torque-spec, with the port? Im curious as i recall reading park still being ideal for the extension. That, plus, seeing BA using Nib coated extensions on some barrels.
A company like Bulldog (just an example)may make 200-1000 barrels a day. They buy extensions from different vendors if the main company is out. Some of the extensions are made from stainless and some from 8620. If I contract barrels they don't tell me what the material is or who made them. Some extension are sold in the white and will rust if not parkerized before hand. I melonite as an assembly but then retorque the extensions and then drill the port. No way to pick and choose alignment of ports.
There are several companies selling Melonite treated barrels without re-torquing the extensions. Some receiving bad advice from the Melonite treater because all they do is treat metal, they aren't gunsmiths or barrel makers. Sooner or later they will come loose...many when removing the muzzle device without a barrel vice.
There are companies that do a good job of Meloniting and cleaning barrels and there are companies that do a very bad job of treating and cleaning. I can tell from drilling the ports how hard and how thick the treatment is. Borescope the barrel. If it looks like the inside of a fireplace flue its a bad sign. If it's clean slick black metal they did a good job.
I melonite as an assembly but then retorque the extensions and then drill the port. No way to pick and choose alignment of ports.
Hopefully there will be a better way in the future. But my understanding is that this is how all of the best companies are currently doing it.
There are several companies selling Melonite treated barrels without re-torquing the extensions. Some receiving bad advice from the Melonite treater because all they do is treat metal, they aren't gunsmiths or barrel makers. Sooner or later they will come loose...many when removing the muzzle device without a barrel vice.
Everyone should read this. constructor knows what he is talking about.
Joe Mamma
I would say that would be difficult to do since its a fairly new offering.
So...I guess no experience to report on throat erosion, gas port erosion, or other longevity issues on the Sionics melonite barrels.
I have 10,000+ on my Noveske 16 inch mid length with no noticeable loss of performance, and close to that on my BCM 11.5. I'm pretty comfortable with chrome lining performance, but I'd sure go melonite in general and Sionics in particular if it offers even close to similar performance.
I would say that would be difficult to do since its a fairly new offering.
Answers my question. Thanks.
Thanks constructor, i appreciate it.
John Henry
09-08-14, 21:24
Great info here, thanks guys.
Anyone have experience with the Voodoo Innovations melonited barrels? I believe they're made by Adams Arms.
Great info here, thanks guys.
Anyone have experience with the Voodoo Innovations melonited barrels? I believe they're made by Adams Arms.
Excellent tip, thank you. They're more expensive than the Sionics barrels, but if they are made by AA then at least they're a proven product that's been tested for longevity and I'd be confident of their construction and accuracy.
Let's also not forget that other companies are doing it and have been for a while.
Answers my question. Thanks.
Let's also not forget that other companies are doing it and have been for a while.
I'm sold on the melonite concept, but for the time being I think you're right that its probably best to go with the more experienced companies that have had the time to demonstrate that they're doing it well. Apparently the barrel prep process is an important component of the longevity of the barrel.
I resist change somewhat. CHF barrels work well for me. I've owned multiple qpq treated firearm components.
Is there any reason a CHF barrel couldn't be nitrided?
Is there any reason a CHF barrel couldn't be nitrided?
If you mean melonited, then nope, no problems. I have a melonited (salt bath nitride to Daniel Defense) S2W barrel from DD.
I believe the above poster meant chrome lined, though.
I had thought that melonite, nitride, and QPQ were all the same process (although melonite may be a specific version of it). What's the difference?
constructor
09-15-14, 10:14
I had thought that melonite, nitride, and QPQ were all the same process (although melonite may be a specific version of it). What's the difference?
No difference really, just every AR company wants it to sound like they have something special. Nitride is more of a generic name, Melonite QPQ is a patented process. All are a liquid dip process. There is a gas process(blue something), one company does it on stainless barrels.
Some treaters like Bodycote short change everyone and do QP(quench-polish) while charging for QPQ. Others QPQ (quench-polish-quench).
If you mean melonited, then nope, no problems. I have a melonited (salt bath nitride to Daniel Defense) S2W barrel from DD.
I believe the above poster meant chrome lined, though.
I did. It works and works well. For that application (barrel/barrel extension), I would prefer chrome-lined, hammer-forged 4150CMV.
Eurodriver
09-15-14, 11:05
I resist change somewhat. CHF barrels work well for me. I've owned multiple qpq treated firearm components.
I resist change alot-what, then.
All of my rifles are plain jane CL milspec barrels. I shoot the piss out of them (one has ~10,000 rounds suppressed through it) and they run great. After seeing Pat Roger's Filthy 14 (Has it been retired yet)? I just can't justify the extra $$$ for any of these fancy coatings or forging processes.
I resist change alot-what, then.
All of my rifles are plain jane CL milspec barrels. I shoot the piss out of them (one has ~10,000 rounds suppressed through it) and they run great. After seeing Pat Roger's Filthy 14 (Has it been retired yet)? I just can't justify the extra $$$ for any of these fancy coatings or forging processes.
It's not the money, for me, it's the law of unintended consequences. I've tried QPQ. I am not sold.
Trial one, back in 2010, I had H&M Metal processing QPQ a P226 for me. barrel included.
Gun runs fine, but the barrel hood has a ton of tiny chips. SIG specifically hardens their barrels and hoods to certain RC levels. This obviously exceeded that, and has chipped. Lock-up is good, so on and so forth, but it's just disconcerting.
Trial two, H&M spawned Rubber City Armory, and they make QPQ Bolt Carrier Groups. I did not like the premature peening/wear I saw on the bolt lugs of one, while another did not exhibit this.
Observation: The QPQ barrel extension someone posted on here was VERY worn.
I'm just not sold for certain applications, yet. Maybe the plan is fine, but the process and refinement are still a lacking factor, IMO
Eurodriver
09-15-14, 11:27
Exactly. I'm sure, in time, these coatings will be a great way to mimic CL without the expense and environmental issues, but we aren't there yet.
Because this thread reminded me of it - just the other night I had a crazy dream that markm was inspecting an SBR that I had just melonited and said "Ya bruddah, da gas port looks mighty nice today brah." in a Jamaican accent. True story. I've never even met markm, but I doubt he is Jamaican.
You need time away from da forum, Mon!
Eurodriver
09-15-14, 14:10
I really do. No homo btw.
I really do. No homo btw.
Maybe a trip to Jamaica, Mon!
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