View Full Version : Assuming you had either choice - would you pursue a PhD or a career in business?
Eurodriver
09-06-14, 19:11
I seek wisdom. I just got extended another fairly decent job offer and my application to a PhD program in business was accepted this week. I've been racking my brain back and forth and cannot figure out which path to go. I like to keep my private life private, but I'll give as much detail as I can.
The job offer is in Jacksonville, FL with a well known, global firm. The PhD program is also in FL from a great public university.
PhD will take 5 years. Tuition has been waived and they will pay $20,000/yr + health insurance for assistantships. Starting pay at a decent university (they are short on PhD professors in this concentration) is about 50% more than starting pay at the job offer. However, pay tends to stay at that rate for at least 20 years. Private sector does end up paying more by retirement, however, by the time I retire net pay will be about equal. Time value of money says that $20 today > $20 tomorrow.
Pros of PhD:
College is big business. Everyone wants to "get an education", and most people in my field go private sector because the pay is good resulting in little competition for professor jobs. If I get tenured at a big private university, it's like hitting the E6 mark in the Marine Corps - guaranteed retirement. More flexible scheduling. Less stress. My dad didn't even graduate high school so being a "Dr." is a big deal as well. I could teach asshole college students that socialism doesn't work, although most business students already know that.
Pros of Job:
Wouldn't have to go 5 years making $1,500/mo after taxes while in school. They do not allow you to have a part time job in this PhD program. Potential for immense success, while small, is there. I wouldn't have to do research. After several years I would be a shoe-in for most Federal white collar LEO units. (This is a big deal to me, as I cannot see myself going the rest of my life out of the .mil/leo circle)
Just looking for some insight among some smart guys. I know many of you are in business and some of you are college profs (Not sure if PhD or not).
montanadave
09-06-14, 19:16
Can you be a little more specific regarding your proposed field of study?
Eurodriver
09-06-14, 19:21
I'll be a counting things.
I'll be a counting things.
If you can afford it, and it seems like you are getting a heck of a deal, go for the phd. In the future it's more money, and you will always have that over every other applicant that doesn't have it. But only do it if you can really make it that long in school. I thought about going back and getting my LLM, but I'm broke and I know I couldn't do two more years of school.
Ask yourself- what will you do with the PhD once you've earned it? Will getting the PhD take your career in the direction you want to go? Will it prevent you from taking the direction you want to go? Will it make you more marketable? Will the PhD pay for itself? Will it take your earnings to a higher level? Are the answers to the above important to you? Will you regret not getting it? Are you sure you want us knuckle-draggers calling you Dr. Driver?
montanadave
09-06-14, 19:55
Having done more than my share of time in college classrooms (three degrees over almost thirty years), I would tell you to pass on the PhD/college professor gig unless you really enjoy teaching. I sat through a lot of boring lectures by instructors who were basically phoning it in and it sucks. Particularly when you're paying for it. The proper motivation for a professor ought to be a love of both learning and teaching, not job security and a pension.
Seems I recollect you talking about forensic accounting back when (pardon me if I'm confusing my facts) and if wanting to catch bad guys and do a little cloak and dagger shit floats your boat, I'd head in that direction.
ramairthree
09-06-14, 20:08
If you are single go the 20K a year PhD route for 5 more years.
If you are married and have kids, take the job.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-06-14, 20:15
Cloak and dagger accounting, now I've heard it all.
You can lose a job, but they can't take away a degree. The better the degree, the less people can call you a dumb-ass. Both pieces of advice from my Dad and they have served me well.
Agreed, pass if your end goal is a FED LEO position.
Teaching and being a college professor is a calling, not for everyone. Plus someone else who is genuinely interested in becoming a college professor could benefit from the opportunity.
If you want into an LEO position, just start applying. You have a background in accounting, then first place I would look is the IRS and FBI. You military background should help. Just realize such a career choice will typically result in relocation.
usajobs.com
Crow Hunter
09-06-14, 21:53
I seek wisdom. I just got extended another fairly decent job offer and my application to a PhD program in business was accepted this week. I've been racking my brain back and forth and cannot figure out which path to go. I like to keep my private life private, but I'll give as much detail as I can.
The job offer is in Jacksonville, FL with a well known, global firm. The PhD program is also in FL from a great public university.
PhD will take 5 years. Tuition has been waived and they will pay $20,000/yr + health insurance for assistantships. Starting pay at a decent university (they are short on PhD professors in this concentration) is about 50% more than starting pay at the job offer. However, pay tends to stay at that rate for at least 20 years. Private sector does end up paying more by retirement, however, by the time I retire net pay will be about equal. Time value of money says that $20 today > $20 tomorrow.
Pros of PhD:
College is big business. Everyone wants to "get an education", and most people in my field go private sector because the pay is good resulting in little competition for professor jobs. If I get tenured at a big private university, it's like hitting the E6 mark in the Marine Corps - guaranteed retirement. More flexible scheduling. Less stress. My dad didn't even graduate high school so being a "Dr." is a big deal as well. I could teach asshole college students that socialism doesn't work, although most business students already know that.
Pros of Job:
Wouldn't have to go 5 years making $1,500/mo after taxes while in school. They do not allow you to have a part time job in this PhD program. Potential for immense success, while small, is there. I wouldn't have to do research. After several years I would be a shoe-in for most Federal white collar LEO units. (This is a big deal to me, as I cannot see myself going the rest of my life out of the .mil/leo circle)
Just looking for some insight among some smart guys. I know many of you are in business and some of you are college profs (Not sure if PhD or not).
Your number one goal in life should not be to make money. It should be to do what you love and enjoy.
Now if making money is your love, do that. :)
If you have the "calling" to teach, you should go for the PhD. But you need to be sure that it is something that you want to do first. Now I don't know about accounting, but my field, engineering, getting a PhD will limit you rather than help you overall. No one is going to hire an engineering PhD other than a college/university. I had a very smart substitute professor (adjunct) way back in college who told us very plainly that unless you absolutely KNOW you want to teach, DON'T get a PhD. I have never met or talked to any engineering PhDs that weren't either professors or were employed as researchers/government. (And they were all a little weird). I did some teaching in college as the Dean's assistant. I decided that it wasn't for me, I don't do a good job explaining things and I get frustrated very easily when people don't understand what I do.
One thing to keep in mind is that there is change in the wind for higher education. The cost/demand is starting to drive some changes and no one really knows what they might turn out to be. This may eventually result in a complete paradigm shift in the way degrees are obtained. This might drive up demand for college professors or, more likely drive down demand as the 17th century method of getting a higher education is moved into the 21st century. This may or may not happen in mine/your lifetime but I think there will be some changes sooner or later.
My SIL is a PhD. Of course she is a Music Theory PhD but it she still doesn't have tenure and only recently moved out of adjunct status.
If you can make enough money to live the way you want, do what will make you feel the most proud of yourself when you look back on your life.
That is something I seriously regret at only 41.
People use things I helped design and developed processes for every day to stop their vehicles. More people pay many thousands of dollars for things I design now.
I have money and stuff, but I don't feel like I am or have really made a difference and that is a big regret in my life.:(
The problem with most teachers I've encountered (I'm working in a second degree) is that they have little to no experience in the field they teach. They got an education to teach...not to get an experience.
To me, teachers at the collegiate level at least, should be like politicians are supposed to be. One should have a rich career, become successful, then offer their experience as a service to the community when they've mastered the profession themselves. All of the best teachers I've had were people that had a solid 20-30 years of real world success before entering academia. It is usually obvious by their approach. I think this is why you see so many college professors that are self-righteous socialist ideologues... They have never been in the real world. They teach because of their ego, rather than as a service to the community.
I'd pass on the phD unless it's necessary for a career.
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Op,
Regarding the Fed LE thing are you talking agent or post-doc employment of sorts?
The problem with most teachers I've encountered (I'm working in a second degree) is that they have little to no experience in the field they teach. They got an education to teach...not to get an experience.
This is completely false in my field, and is false in most PhD educated educators, with a few exceptions. We have a few professors who focus only on teaching and not research, but they are a small minority. Even those, however, went through PhD training, which does not focus on teaching how to teach. We have a saying "You don't get a PhD for office hours" (Office hours being teaching undergrads). This is more of a problem than teachers being tought to teach.
Anyway, on getting a PhD
I'm on the PhD track currently (maybe 1.5 years left to go). I took about a 50% paycut to do my PhD, and my stipend is larger than Eurodivers would be. I'm hoping that this will translate into a much larger paycheck when I graduate. I left industry, job security, huge benefits, and a possible doubling in pay in the next year because of the horrible BS, materialistic, shallow, culture. If you think liberalism is bad in academia, it's worse there. So I've been here for a while, and don't expect a PhD in 5 years, at least in my field. All of the same problems, with the exception of being forced into business casual (I wore a lab coat all day so who cares?). Well, I found that I really don't want any job that requires a PhD, but I'm so close to finishing that I might as well stick it out. Going into a PhD (in my field) expect 60+ hour weeks, working 7 days a week with no over-time pay. You do the math and you end up making less than minimum wage (even when tuition is counted). Also the health insurance is crap. I had a severe injury a few years back and I'm still hurting financially.
So the gist of it: If you want a job that requires a PhD, go for it. However, it is mental torture and many PhD's that make it through end up with alcohol or other drug problems (If you search there is an article about it). I can attest that this is absolutely true.
Alas, it is Sunday morning, and I've got to head into lab, or I'd rant more.
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Eurodriver
09-07-14, 10:30
Ask yourself- what will you do with the PhD once you've earned it? Will getting the PhD take your career in the direction you want to go? Will it prevent you from taking the direction you want to go? Will it make you more marketable? Will the PhD pay for itself? Will it take your earnings to a higher level? Are the answers to the above important to you? Will you regret not getting it? Are you sure you want us knuckle-draggers calling you Dr. Driver?
I will teach with a PhD. It's not as much "I want to teach, therefore I am pursuing a PHD", but rather "I was offered a PHD, therefore I will teach."
I really hate to come across as that guy, but the money is important to me and that's probably 90% of the reason I'm even considering a PhD. The other 10% consists of somewhat flexible scheduling, tenure, and to prove that I can be Dr. Driver.
Having done more than my share of time in college classrooms (three degrees over almost thirty years), I would tell you to pass on the PhD/college professor gig unless you really enjoy teaching. I sat through a lot of boring lectures by instructors who were basically phoning it in and it sucks. Particularly when you're paying for it. The proper motivation for a professor ought to be a love of both learning and teaching, not job security and a pension.
Seems I recollect you talking about forensic accounting back when (pardon me if I'm confusing my facts) and if wanting to catch bad guys and do a little cloak and dagger shit floats your boat, I'd head in that direction.
Dave, you're correct about forensic accounting. FBI wants CPAs (badly) with 3-5 years of work experience.
Agreed, pass if your end goal is a FED LEO position.
Teaching and being a college professor is a calling, not for everyone. Plus someone else who is genuinely interested in becoming a college professor could benefit from the opportunity.
If you want into an LEO position, just start applying. You have a background in accounting, then first place I would look is the IRS and FBI. You military background should help. Just realize such a career choice will typically result in relocation.
I do want to teach, and I feel I would enjoy teaching. I know there are a ton of bad profs out there, but that doesn't mean I would be like that just because my life long dream to teach wasn't there. Money talks, and for big bucks I can stand in front of students for 6 hours a week and crack jokes and go over material. Additionally, being a PhD is far more about research in my field than actual teaching. It's shitty, but universities don't really care if you can teach or not if you write really well and get your Alma Mater and current school good press from your research. I do enjoy research and that is something I would have no issues doing. Plus, most CPA PhDs do audit/tax/valuation consulting on the side. It helps them keep their "real" accounting skills sharp while making quite a bit of money on the side.
This is completely false in my field, and is false in most PhD educated educators, with a few exceptions. We have a few professors who focus only on teaching and not research, but they are a small minority. Even those, however, went through PhD training, which does not focus on teaching how to teach. We have a saying "You don't get a PhD for office hours" (Office hours being teaching undergrads). This is more of a problem than teachers being tought to teach.
Anyway, on getting a PhD
I'm on the PhD track currently (maybe 1.5 years left to go). I took about a 50% paycut to do my PhD, and my stipend is larger than Eurodivers would be. I'm hoping that this will translate into a much larger paycheck when I graduate. I left industry, job security, huge benefits, and a possible doubling in pay in the next year because of the horrible BS, materialistic, shallow, culture. If you think liberalism is bad in academia, it's worse there. So I've been here for a while, and don't expect a PhD in 5 years, at least in my field. All of the same problems, with the exception of being forced into business casual (I wore a lab coat all day so who cares?). Well, I found that I really don't want any job that requires a PhD, but I'm so close to finishing that I might as well stick it out. Going into a PhD (in my field) expect 60+ hour weeks, working 7 days a week with no over-time pay. You do the math and you end up making less than minimum wage (even when tuition is counted). Also the health insurance is crap. I had a severe injury a few years back and I'm still hurting financially.
So the gist of it: If you want a job that requires a PhD, go for it. However, it is mental torture and many PhD's that make it through end up with alcohol or other drug problems (If you search there is an article about it). I can attest that this is absolutely true.
Alas, it is Sunday morning, and I've got to head into lab, or I'd rant more.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info. That doesn't sound pleasant, but 60 hours a week during tax season as a CPA is a vacation. Still, that's only 3 months. 5 years of that might wear me pretty thin.
Your number one goal in life should not be to make money. It should be to do what you love and enjoy.
Now if making money is your love, do that. :)
If you have the "calling" to teach, you should go for the PhD. But you need to be sure that it is something that you want to do first. Now I don't know about accounting, but my field, engineering, getting a PhD will limit you rather than help you overall. No one is going to hire an engineering PhD other than a college/university... I have never met or talked to any engineering PhDs that weren't either professors or were employed as researchers/government. (And they were all a little weird).
If you can make enough money to live the way you want, do what will make you feel the most proud of yourself when you look back on your life.
That is something I seriously regret at only 41.
I have money and stuff, but I don't feel like I am or have really made a difference and that is a big regret in my life.:(
Good point that I don't want to regret doing things. I'm just swayed easily by money - it's true. I didn't grow up with a lot of it. Unless I'm mistaken, an FBI Special Agent with a CPA doing accounting fraud work makes less money than I do right now (this is probably why they are so desperate for them). A PhD will limit you in my field as well - teaching or gov't research is your only option. It's not like a liberal arts major where a PhD will get you a head position curating some museum.
I'm under no illusions what FBI special agent accountants do. I've met them. They basically sit behind a computer all day and the only action they see is the inside of a courtroom. They rarely even make the actual arrests or interrogate people. Their starting pay is pretty bad and I probably couldn't get hired as a white male anyway. But I would actually feel like I'm doing something productive or making a difference, whereas if I were working for E&Y I worry I would just be going through the motions.
The problem with most teachers I've encountered (I'm working in a second degree) is that they have little to no experience in the field they teach. They got an education to teach...not to get an experience.
To me, teachers at the collegiate level at least, should be like politicians are supposed to be. One should have a rich career, become successful, then offer their experience as a service to the community when they've mastered the profession themselves. All of the best teachers I've had were people that had a solid 20-30 years of real world success before entering academia. It is usually obvious by their approach. I think this is why you see so many college professors that are self-righteous socialist ideologues... They have never been in the real world. They teach because of their ego, rather than as a service to the community.
I'd pass on the phD unless it's necessary for a career.
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What field was this in? I say that because the PhDs I've worked with have all worked in private industry for at least some time. It might have only been 5 years, but they've actually sat behind a desk at a company. I agree that it does help in teaching. Ironically, those with 20 years of experience and a masters degree make less money than those with 5 years of experience and a PhD. Obviously the guy with the masters has more real world experience, but the school is paying for the research, not the teaching.
Mostly business, finance, economics, management, etcetera. It's hard taking a management class from somebody that has never managed a business.
In my state all salaries of state employees are published, so one could easily find out what they were making. One economics teacher was earning around $110,000 at the time (2003-4). I don't believe he was currently doing research but had in the past. Econ/finance professors seem to earn more because they command higher salaries in the private marker. I believe the average starting salary for a lowly BS in Econ was $65,000 when I graduated.
But I wouldn't do ANYTHING for the money. Do it because it's what you love doing. Do it because it makes you happy, because it gives you autonomy. You can't buy happiness.
Now I'm moving into the medical field and thus far all of the professors I have now are either in practice or retired from practice before becoming educators.
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ramairthree
09-07-14, 12:40
I will teach with a PhD. It's not as much "I want to teach, therefore I am pursuing a PHD", but rather "I was offered a PHD, therefore I will teach."
I really hate to come across as that guy, but the money is important to me and that's probably 90% of the reason I'm even considering a PhD. The other 10% consists of somewhat flexible scheduling, tenure, and to prove that I can be Dr. Driver.
Dave, you're correct about forensic accounting. FBI wants CPAs (badly) with 3-5 years of work experience.
I do want to teach, and I feel I would enjoy teaching. I know there are a ton of bad profs out there, but that doesn't mean I would be like that just because my life long dream to teach wasn't there. Money talks, and for big bucks I can stand in front of students for 6 hours a week and crack jokes and go over material. Additionally, being a PhD is far more about research in my field than actual teaching. It's shitty, but universities don't really care if you can teach or not if you write really well and get your Alma Mater and current school good press from your research. I do enjoy research and that is something I would have no issues doing. Plus, most CPA PhDs do audit/tax/valuation consulting on the side. It helps them keep their "real" accounting skills sharp while making quite a bit of money on the side.
I would not let ego play even a ten percent factor.
Some fields such as education and divinity offer doctorates over the internet, that are accredited.
Degree creep has made fields that used to be Bachelors into Masters and now Doctors of Nursing, Pharmacy, Physician Assistant, etc.
Nobody considers them "Dr." anything. In fact, an I remember when P.T. was going from B.S. to M.S. there was absolutely no more clinical, science, or hands on added, just fluff added. Very little change in PA from BS to MS, some places offering D.Sci. in Emergency Physician Assistant with as little as 18 months time.
Even in the real brick and mortar academic traditional Ph.D. track,
people did not go around being recognized as "Doctor" socially. Whether is was the real deal Physics or Chem, standard History or English, or trash Gender Studies or whatever Ph.D- they were "Professor" - and had this weird they are a just a post-doc, he is an associate, assistant, or full professor strata.
In my opinion, do something that builds your legacy. I've been in your shoes that last couple of months and decided that I want to do something that my kids and grandchildren will be proud of. Though I definitely understand that money talks.
While you state you would enjoy teaching your words really don't convey that. I think long term you will not be happy there, more likely disillusioned.
It sounds like you are wanting to do a lot of proving things to yourself, and to give your family pride in having a son/grand son with a PhD and/or high paying job after coming from a humble beginning. This is honorable to an extent, but again I fear you will not be happy.
You can hear many stories about happiness and work. Most of these stories involve having let go of money as an ideal, and to have devoted yourself to what interests you. I think the frequency of these stories makes them worth paying attention to. People will say how they are proud to have achieved such and such but they don't say it made them happy.
Don't mistake pride for happiness.
One thing I hear and think it makes a lot of sense is this: What is your hobby? Then, how can you make a job out of it? That seems to be a good source of finding a job you enjoy. Its not always true, one case is people who want to 'help' people this is typically doctor, social worker, teacher type deal. Not based on a hobby, it fills a greater calling in life and gives people a sense of fulfillment. This does bring up two sides to being a doctor though, someone who becomes a doctor because they want to heal and help will be happy. The person who becomes a doctor to "Dr." so and so will not be happy with it, they will simply be proud of there accomplishment, but stuck with a job they don't really want to do.
If you don't want to teach then by all means don't. It's not as glamorous as it seems and you need to have a dedication to the craft if you want to be good. Otherwise you're like every other craptastic professor that doesnt teach their kids shit. Believe me being on the receiving end of a teacher whose only thoughts are towards his grant or research project sucks balls.
Think of the long term effects of the PhD. Aside from an ego boost for having completed it; what will it do for you? You'll spend the next 5 years making 20k and spending a good chunk of your free time on other things. Is that time well spent or will you be better off taking a job at $50k, investing your cash and gaining experience that will move your career forward.
Crow Hunter
09-12-14, 07:28
Another thing that I am sure you know but I want to remind you of.
Every year that you don't max out your tax advantaged space (401k & Roth/tIRA) is one that you will NEVER get back. So taking a pay cut that will barely cover your living expenses means that those 5 years that you lose the ability to max out your tax advantaged accounts will be worth a huge amount in 30 years. Tax advantaged space in your 20's is worth WAY more than tax advantaged space in your 40's or 50's.
So don't forget to look at it from the opportunity cost side as well.
A doctorate will provide you with a career versus just having a job.... get your Ph.D.
A doctorate will provide you with a career versus just having a job.... get your Ph.D.
Would you care to explain further? I know very few successful business people with a doctorate, nor can I find evidence that shows doctorate level business people in the top richest people of this nation. In fact, doctorate level people are out numbered by mere high school graduates, in this chart http://www.statista.com/statistics/238537/education-level-of-americas-billionaires/
I happen to own a successful business that is growing every year, I'm launching my first spin off of that company in the near future, and serve as the chairman of three non-profit boards. All with a mere high school diploma. College didn't work out for me even though I attended several years. I was continuously disappointed in the quality of instruction of both colleges I attended and the birth of my first child resulted in me not going back. It was the best thing that happened to me.
I would not suggest that everyone go this route and I respect the value of a college education. However, I cannot fathom how a doctorate would help in this fast changing business atmosphere unless you want to become a professor. I'm kind of pig headed too, and can't imagine anyone with an in depth degree in business would ever want to work for someone else. I'm glad folks want to, otherwise businesses like mine and my suppliers wouldn't have people to run them.
Eurodriver
09-13-14, 06:50
I have received a bunch of PMs from well meaning, intelligent people and I want to thank those of you who offered advice in this thread.
Putting ego aside, I will pass on the PhD. I like the idea of being in front of people lecturing, I like the idea of making money, I like the idea of research - but I really really do not want to be a teacher. As a PhD in business that's really all you can do.
I also received a very detailed PM explaining how if I got a PhD it would hinder, not help at all, any chances of future federal LE work. I'm not ready to put down a gun for the rest of my life yet.
It kills me to pass up a good opportunity, but I think it is best long term.
montanadave
09-13-14, 07:50
Sounds like a good call. I'm a great student but a lousy instructor. Back when, I was given a teaching assistantship in graduate school, assigned to several lab sessions in my department. At midterm, my supervising professor called me in and said, "Ya know, as much as you might want to, you really can't flunk over half of your students." :no:
My response? "These meatheads are turning in lab assignments that look like they drew 'em on a grocery sack with a charcoal briquet. You wanna pass 'em, fine, but don't ask me to do it."
I was promptly reassigned as a research assistant and spent the remainder of the year helping to set up equipment in the new science building . . . working by myself. All's well that ends well, right?
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