View Full Version : How much cash can you have on you without it being seized?
ramairthree
09-10-14, 17:26
Some guys were talking about the "war on drugs" stuff and said if you were pulled over and had more than 10K on you, it could be seized.
It is the "cash" being seized, not you, so it has no rights.
I guess some stuff on the news has people discussing it.
Let's say I am cruising westbound in a hurry to get to a 68 GTO for sale hoping it pans out to be a rare RAII one.
Or a two door post Tempest 350 HO.
Whatever.
Money, especially in the form of cold had cash, talks in these cases.
I am doing 15mph over the speed limit being all excited and in a hurry.
There is a bag on the seat next to me, along with a flash light, a few tools, etc. next to it.
For what ever reason the LEO asks if he minds if he takes a look in my truck. I say, "Thank you, but I do not consent to a warrantless search."
He goes back to his car with my license, etc. and comes back and says he is having a dog come out to sniff my truck.
I say I do not consent to being detained and he walks away without answering with my license, registration ,and insurance in his hand.
A guy with a dog shows up, and despite being a middle aged white dude in a 3/4 ton truck with no ashtray he gets PC, and finds 30K in the bag.
They take it.
Can I truly not get it back?
How about if the truck interior and my urine are neg for any drugs does the PC get canned as false and get it back that way?
OK,
the above did not happen.
But,
from a LE perspective is that cash free for the taking, I mean seizing?
JBecker 72
09-10-14, 17:36
There was a lengthy article in this past Sundays Washington Post about the "Stop and Seize" tactics that have been happening since 9/11. They listed people getting as few as $8000 taken and one guy up to $75,000. They eventually did get their money back (some up to a year later) after having to hire a lawyer to fight for them. These people were not arrested, and were only cited for minor traffic violations. The cash being seized is being spent within departments as well.
The only way I understand you don't get the money back is if they can prove you are trafficking drugs. But plenty of folks on their way to buy something have been caught in this web. If you feel like it it's worth a read, one of WashPo's few.
Is speeding 15mph above the limit probable cause?
JBecker 72
09-10-14, 17:50
Is speeding 15mph above the limit probable cause?
No. But the people in the article I read either consented to a search, or a K-9 alerted to the presence of drugs only to turn up the money. Cash seized, individual released at the scene. Some were arrested on suspicion of drug trafficking but weren't charged due to lack of evidence.
It is the "cash" being seized, not you, so it has no rights.
Can I truly not get it back?
How about if the truck interior and my urine are neg for any drugs does the PC get canned as false and get it back that way?
But,
from a LE perspective is that cash free for the taking, I mean seizing?
Cash is property. Just like any other property, you have a "bundle" of rights in it. If there are drugs + PC indicative of sales + cash in small denominations, then you are probably not getting it back, and charged with an additional felony in some states.
Unless there is a statute that prevents the transport of more than 10k in cash(which unless there is international travel, I can't see that happening because business routinely take more than 10k to the bank), seizing that property would not only be unlawful, it would a violation of your 4th & 5th amendment rights.
Not only would you have a claim to get the cash back, but you would also have a civil claim.
I have seen absolute horror stories with cash confiscations, k9 alerts, and other situations involving the two. In some states the statute really makes it a pain. If there aren't drugs in the car, I can't imagine what justification they would have based on the hypo you gave.
Suwannee Tim
09-10-14, 18:16
Cash is property. Just like any other property, you have a "bundle" of rights in it. If there are drugs + PC indicative of sales + cash in small denominations, then you are probably not getting it back, and charged with an additional felony in some states.
Unless there is a statute that prevents the transport of more than 10k in cash(which unless there is international travel, I can't see that happening because business routinely take more than 10k to the bank), seizing that property would not only be unlawful, it would a violation of your 4th & 5th amendment rights.
Not only would you have a claim to get the cash back, but you would also have a civil claim.
I have seen absolute horror stories with cash confiscations, k9 alerts, and other situations involving the two. In some states the statute really makes it a pain. If there aren't drugs in the car, I can't imagine what justification they would have based on the hypo you gave.
Let me Google that for you. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=civil+forfeiture)
Civil forfeiture is long and well established law, federal and in most states.
Total BS. I question anybody claiming their money was taken for no reason other than the amount.
The OP's situation is a stretch. Now attemp to enter the country with a large amount of undeclared cash or precious metal and see what happens. Your head will be spinning for weeks.
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JBecker 72
09-10-14, 18:28
Total BS. I question anybody claiming their money was taken for no reason other than the amount.
The OP's situation is a stretch. Now attemp to enter the country with a large amount of undeclared cash or precious metal and see what happens. Your head will be spinning for weeks.
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Read the article posted in this thread. It happens often.
It is happening and it's not isolated. Google Tenaha, TX as an example. People have had as little as a few thousand taken from them. All that needs to happen is to create a scenario and confiscate. Due Process in these situations doesn't apply.
Total BS. I question anybody claiming their money was taken for no reason other than the amount.
The OP's situation is a stretch. Now attemp to enter the country with a large amount of undeclared cash or precious metal and see what happens. Your head will be spinning for weeks.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I'll do some more research on this. Being LE here in the northeast I know the hoops and hurdles we have to jump through and over to confiscate large amounts of cash and find some of these stories are lacking some details.
If they are true we sre in worst straits than I have imagined.
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Let me Google that for you. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=civil+forfeiture)
Civil forfeiture is long and well established law, federal and in most states.
Let me re-explain this to you, since apparently your googliness prevented you from understanding the OPs original hypothetical.
(1) OP stopped for Traffic violation
(2) OP k9'ed
(3) K9 Alerts, no drugs, just cash
(4) cash seized separate and apart from an instrument of criminality directly linking to the cash
That isn't civil forfeiture, that is conversion, and a violation of the 4th and 5th amendment.
Absent a criminal link, you can't take it because its just money in a bag.
ramairthree
09-10-14, 20:34
Let me re-explain this to you, since apparently your googliness prevented you from understanding the OPs original hypothetical.
(1) OP stopped for Traffic violation
(2) OP k9'ed
(3) K9 Alerts, no drugs, just cash
(4) cash seized separate and apart from an instrument of criminality directly linking to the cash
That isn't civil forfeiture, that is conversion, and a violation of the 4th and 5th amendment.
Absent a criminal link, you can't take it because its just money in a bag.
I think we completely agree with your rundown,
but it seems places are taking the cash anyway.
JBecker 72
09-10-14, 20:41
I think we completely agree with your rundown,
but it seems places are taking the cash anyway.
Exactly
I think we completely agree with your rundown,
but it seems places are taking the cash anyway.
Yes, but the problem is that many times they take it knowing full well that you are a crook and won't be able to challenge it without incriminating themselves in some way or fashion.
However, taking it from a person absent a criminal link is not only conversion, but the individual/officer/LEO/whatever, can potentially lose their immunity and not only will the state/governing agency be open to liability, but the "taker" themselves can also be the subject of a suit in their personal capacity. That is because acts of conversion are outside the scope of a LEO.
I have watched some of these overzealous cash seizures result in pretty significant awards to the plaintiff and the loss of employment for a LEO. Additionally, there may still be a pending action in OK involving the DA sanctioned use of a private security company to conduct traffic stops (with no CLEET certification), with the singular purpose of seizing cash from those traveling on roadways. I can virtually guarantee there will serious implications for all involved, but I'm sure that issue settled, there is no way in hell those people would let that get in front of a jury.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-11-14, 08:32
Total BS. I question anybody claiming their money was taken for no reason other than the amount.
The OP's situation is a stretch. Now attemp to enter the country with a large amount of undeclared cash or precious metal and see what happens. Your head will be spinning for weeks.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Happens all the time. There are several areas of the country well known for this type of activity. People are never charged with anything but their cash/assets remained seized.
Total BS. I question anybody claiming their money was taken for no reason other than the amount.
Happens all the time here in Reno. Here's a small snippet below of this article: Cops Use Traffic Stops To Seize Millions From Drivers Never Charged With A Crime (http://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2014/03/12/cops-use-traffic-stops-to-seize-millions-from-drivers-never-charged-with-a-crime/). I recommend reading the rest.
License, registration—and your cash.
A deputy for the Humboldt County’s Sheriff Office in rural Nevada has been accused of confiscating over $60,000 from drivers who were never charged with a crime. These cash seizures are now the subject of two federal lawsuits and are the latest to spotlight a little-known police practice called civil forfeiture...
Civil forfeiture allows law enforcement to seize property (including cash and cars) without having to prove the owners are guilty. Last September, Tan Nguyen was pulled over for driving three miles over the speed limit, according to a suit he filed. Deputy Lee Dove asked to search the car but Nguyen said he declined. Dove claimed he smelled marijuana but couldn’t find any drugs. The deputy then searched the car and found a briefcase containing $50,000 in cash and cashier’s checks, which he promptly seized. According to the Associated Press, Nguyen said he won that cash at a casino.
Nguyen was not arrested or charged with a crime—not even a traffic citation. In the suit, Dove threatened to seize and tow Nguyen’s car unless he “got in his car and drove off and forgot this ever happened.” That would have left Nguyen stranded in the Nevada desert...
Here's a news clip with dash cam footage of the piece of shit thief with a badge.
http://youtu.be/lMSaDu1Eh2E
No different than any other gang exhorting and stealing money from people. Except they're doing it with a badge. New article that goes into great detail. ...an aggressive brand of policing that has spurred the seizure of hundreds of millions of dollars in cash from motorists and others not charged with crimes... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/)
There have been 61,998 cash seizures made on highways and elsewhere since 9/11 without search warrants or indictments through the Equitable Sharing Program, totaling more than $2.5 billion. State and local authorities kept more than $1.7 billion of that while Justice, Homeland Security and other federal agencies received $800 million. Half of the seizures were below $8,800.
Only a sixth of the seizures were legally challenged, in part because of the costs of legal action against the government. But in 41 percent of cases — 4,455 — where there was a challenge, the government agreed to return money. The appeals process took more than a year in 40 percent of those cases and often required owners of the cash to sign agreements not to sue police over the seizures.
A 55-year-old Chinese American restaurateur from Georgia was pulled over for minor speeding on Interstate 10 in Alabama and detained for nearly two hours. He was carrying $75,000 raised from relatives to buy a Chinese restaurant in Lake Charles, La. He got back his money 10 months later but only after spending thousands of dollars on a lawyer and losing out on the restaurant deal.
A 40-year-old Hispanic carpenter from New Jersey was stopped on Interstate 95 in Virginia for having tinted windows. Police said he appeared nervous and consented to a search. They took $18,000 that he said was meant to buy a used car. He had to hire a lawyer to get back his money.
Mandrel Stuart, a 35-year-old African American owner of a small barbecue restaurant in Staunton, Va., was stunned when police took $17,550 from him during a stop in 2012 for a minor traffic infraction on Interstate 66 in Fairfax. He rejected a settlement with the government for half of his money and demanded a jury trial. He eventually got his money back but lost his business because he didn’t have the cash to pay his overhead.
Voodoo_Man
09-12-14, 10:39
You will be fine.
If you are withdrawing from a bank account, have the receipt. If you are selling something a receipt is a good idea too.
The whole seizure thing is really media nonsense, does it happen, yea it does, but not the way they say it goes down.
It is happening and it's not isolated. Google Tenaha, TX as an example. People have had as little as a few thousand taken from them. All that needs to happen is to create a scenario and confiscate. Due Process in these situations doesn't apply.
Hell, in some parts of TX, they'll take the $200 out of your wallet while they're checking your ID, then run off with it. I've had money, knives, and flashlights stolen from me by the police. Each time I'm let go. Each time I call the police department. Each time I'm given a phone number that leads to a phone that never stops ringing. Lots of crooked LEOs in my city.
....If there aren't drugs in the car, I can't imagine what justification they would have based on the hypo you gave.
Have both heard and read that a significant portion of US paper money tests positive for various drugs - especially cocaine. Is there enough residue for a pooch to alert on? If so - we're all screwed:)
john
Averageman
09-12-14, 11:25
I don't trust the dogs, I'm pretty sure they can and will key on voice inflection even if it is unintentional.
As far as the sign this and drive off without your money, I think I would ask for a supervisor while I called my Attorney.
NCPatrolAR
09-12-14, 11:53
Hell, in some parts of TX, they'll take the $200 out of your wallet while they're checking your ID, then run off with it. I've had money, knives, and flashlights stolen from me by the police. Each time I'm let go. Each time I call the police department. Each time I'm given a phone number that leads to a phone that never stops ringing. Lots of crooked LEOs in my city.
Why have you had so much interaction with the police in your area?
SWATcop556
09-12-14, 12:09
Hell, in some parts of TX, they'll take the $200 out of your wallet while they're checking your ID, then run off with it. I've had money, knives, and flashlights stolen from me by the police. Each time I'm let go. Each time I call the police department. Each time I'm given a phone number that leads to a phone that never stops ringing. Lots of crooked LEOs in my city.
I'm just wondering why you're handing over your whole wallet to have your license verified. I would accept the license only, not the wallet, to prevent just this kind of accusation.
Have both heard and read that a significant portion of US paper money tests positive for various drugs - especially cocaine. Is there enough residue for a pooch to alert on? If so - we're all screwed:)
john
Probably not. I wondered about that myself and left a big was of money in a center console once while they were training a dog in a Yukon xl, dog never hit on the console, but did find every container.
Handlers can get their dogs do do anything they want, if you get busted getting your dog to have a false indication, not only are you toast, the dog, but also every case that dog/ handler has been involved in.
They still do it, but now that people are recording everything it's getting harder to get away with it.
I think there is a site called cop busters or something where a former k9 officer has posted videos of officers showing the reward toy to get the dog to indicate.
Well honestly, it's usually because I'm the only Asian in a predominantly Hispanic and white neighborhood. It hasn't happened in a long time - mostly when I was a teenager and in my early 20s. It's regular routine in this town to make you step out of the vehicle to get patted down no matter if you're doing anything wrong, have a valid license and insurance, or what. At least that used to be my case. I dressed pretty conservatively, was always calm and collected, and was never found of any wrong-doing. The police have this city on lockdown. It's always has been this way. Now that I have a few gray hairs in my beard they tend to leave me alone, especially since all of the white people moved to the other side of town and Katrina victims have moved in. The cops are pretty racist around here. I guess I've gone from high-priority target status to target-of-opportunity status. But yeah - about the wallet thing - I was 17 and didn't know any better. The knives and lights were taken on patdowns that should NOT have occurred. I have always been polite and 100% compliant with LEOs and am not a law-breaker. You guys would have no idea unless you lived here and weren't 100% white.
Did you actually read any of the stuff? Like the lady who was paid in cash from a real estate transaction and it was seized?
I also recommend you read how things went down in that Texas township.
Google Estelline, Texas and look at those numbers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3184015/posts
You will be fine.
If you are withdrawing from a bank account, have the receipt. If you are selling something a receipt is a good idea too.
The whole seizure thing is really media nonsense, does it happen, yea it does, but not the way they say it goes down.
Eurodriver
09-12-14, 20:53
Answer: As much as you want.
3400 does not playa make, padawan. Or did I make a mistake in counting...;)
Eurodriver
09-12-14, 21:16
3400 does not playa make, padawan. Or did I make a mistake in counting...;)
it's pretty damn hard to get more than 30-40 bills to show individually in your hand like that. Still, I'm smart enough not to brag about cash flow on a forum like this. Some guys dump that much (way more than 3400) on a single AR15 and a 1911.
SWATcop556
09-12-14, 23:23
You make a lot if money. Congrats.
I don't. Big deal.
Seizures are an effective way to disable criminal organization when utilized lawfully. Just like anything else they get abused.
Answer: As much as you want.
I flash mines to the LEOs to remind them how much money they don't make.
Pure class right there. Mamma must be proud.
Voodoo_Man
09-13-14, 05:33
Did you actually read any of the stuff? Like the lady who was paid in cash from a real estate transaction and it was seized?
I also recommend you read how things went down in that Texas township.
Google Estelline, Texas and look at those numbers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3184015/posts
I have read that and if it is 100% true per the media's account then yes it is messed up.
However, the media has obvious ethical flaws and I have yet news articles that are more fact than sensationalized made up news.
I have been involved in seizures, hundreds of them, they never go down this way, or the way the media seems to report about, and nothing I do is unique in any way.
Eurodriver
09-13-14, 06:04
You make a lot if money. Congrats.
I don't. Big deal.
Seizures are an effective way to disable criminal organization when utilized lawfully. Just like anything else they get abused.
I had every intention of adding a disclaimer to the bottom of that, but got distracted with unwrapping tootsie rolls. I was just trying to make a funny, but without the edit I can see how you'd take offense.
LE makes pretty damn good money in these parts (starting pay is a few k a year short of a new CPAs pay) And I have a buddy with Suffolk County NY who makes 6 figures starting. Jokes on me if I think I make more money than you.
Think of it as an attempt at being an inverse of the type of post J Dub would make ;) regardless, I apologize to LE for that comment.
it's pretty damn hard to get more than 30-40 bills to show individually in your hand like that. Still, I'm smart enough not to brag about cash flow on a forum like this. Some guys dump that much (way more than 3400) on a single AR15 and a 1911.
Yes. If not more.It just reminded me of the 17 dollars now thats gangsta meme. Just giving you shit man...
Moose-Knuckle
09-13-14, 11:01
S**t, I wished I had that kind of money to even worry about lol.
Alpha Sierra
09-13-14, 11:43
I wonder if the two troopers shot in PA last night had been engaging in this sort of highway robbery?
SWATcop556
09-13-14, 13:23
I wonder if the two troopers shot in PA last night had been engaging in this sort of highway robbery?
Give me a break dude. You choose to take an event where someone lost their life and even hint that they were "engaging in this sort of highway robbery" without any info to back up a jackass comment like that?
Voodoo_Man
09-13-14, 13:29
Give me a break dude. You choose to take an event where someone lost their life and even hint that they were "engaging in this sort of highway robbery" without any info to back up a jackass comment like that?
Another funeral, another family that gets that call in the middle of the night, another brother lost and one in the hospital that will hopefully recover...definitely joke worthy material.
Then maybe forget the news accounts and look at the class action lawsuit that was filed against Tenaha, for what they did.
Or maybe the fact that a jury believed that woman's story and awarded her over 75K.
I have read that and if it is 100% true per the media's account then yes it is messed up.
However, the media has obvious ethical flaws and I have yet news articles that are more fact than sensationalized made up news.
I have been involved in seizures, hundreds of them, they never go down this way, or the way the media seems to report about, and nothing I do is unique in any way.
Voodoo_Man
09-14-14, 06:51
Then maybe forget the news accounts and look at the class action lawsuit that was filed against Tenaha, for what they did.
Or maybe the fact that a jury believed that woman's story and awarded her over 75K.
I was speaking about the media linked article and nothing more. If there is official police paperwork available to the public I'd like to see it for their reason of seizure.
Then maybe forget the news accounts and look at the class action lawsuit that was filed against Tenaha, for what they did.
Or maybe the fact that a jury believed that woman's story and awarded her over 75K.
I agree. People don't realize that there have been several lawsuits concerning this over the last ten years, most if not all of them have resulted in pretty hefty awards to the plaintiff.
After I file a FOIA I will post it here if that will convince you.
I was speaking about the media linked article and nothing more. If there is official police paperwork available to the public I'd like to see it for their reason of seizure.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-15-14, 12:44
http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/09/12/time-for-civil-asset-forfeiture-laws-to-meet-the-same-fate-as-jim-crow/
Time For Civil Asset Forfeiture Laws To Meet The Same Fate As Jim Crow
Recent forbes article on the subject. I see no place for forfeiture laws that place the burden of innocence on the accused(or in some cases not even accused). If we are still protected by the constitution it shouldn't matter how much money I have on me if I am stopped for a traffic stop or busted tail light. The money is legal and it should be up to the law enforcement to prove I was doing something wrong, not the other way around.
Do forfeiture laws snag a lot of assholes moving money or goods attained through less than legal ways? I am sure they do, but they are also "stealing" from innocent people and forcing citizens to prove they are innocent to get their property back and I don't see how anyone could support that.
Vietnamese guy in Louisiana was heading towards the coast to go buy a fishing boat ($75K IIRC) when he was stopped and his money stolen.
Lucky for him they had a dash cam that showed the initial seizure, and another dash cam that showed the Chief taking the money, then claiming no money had been seized.
As far as drug dogs go, a good handler can get the dog to "alert" giving cops a probable cause.
What cops don't think about is the number of pissed off potential jurors they are creating every time they do something like this.
Keep the forfeiture laws, but make the seizing agency liable for legal fees in addition to the seized money.
Voodoo_Man
09-16-14, 09:31
After I file a FOIA I will post it here if that will convince you.
I dont need convincing. When I worked narc I went through seizures everyday sometimes, it was never the way the media says it happens and we never had any issues doing it. So id like to get actual police documentation rather than read media stories which are almost always false.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-14, 09:50
I dont need convincing. When I worked narc I went through seizures everyday sometimes, it was never the way the media says it happens and we never had any issues doing it. So id like to get actual police documentation rather than read media stories which are almost always false.
Police documentation of them seizing money they shouldn't have seized? I doubt they would document that.
On a little more serious note, just because the department or group you worked with didn't do it doesn't mean it never happens anywhere. I assume that the vast majority of LEO in the US would not do it, but there are far to many cases and stories of seizures happening to innocent people for me to believe that it isn't a problem. Even if they get their money back, but they had to hire a lawyer and fight it in court for a year or two doesn't mean it's ok.
Remember, we should be basing things on "Innocent until proven guilty".
A quick video that illustrates the problem.
http://youtu.be/Y6MT_YLO5yg
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-14, 10:08
A quick video that illustrates the problem.
Great video, thanks for posting.
Eurodriver
09-16-14, 10:19
A quick video that illustrates the problem.
http://youtu.be/Y6MT_YLO5yg
Great video - shows how racist all of these laws are and why cops are so eager to keep them on the books.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-14, 10:30
Although I have no doubt racism can play into it, I believe it is more about the money and going after those that are least likely to fight back. If that happens to be an old black lady or an old white lady I don't think it really matters.
Averageman
09-16-14, 12:06
It would seem to me the only color that matters is Green.
The way these laws are written is allowing corruption to run rampant.
Voodoo_Man
09-16-14, 12:52
Obviously I am looking at it from my experience and point of view, but id like to see their reason for taking the property. They have to fill out paperwork in reference to it, I want to see that paperwork.
As ive stated before, I highly doubt the problem is as large as the media makes it out to be.
Im guessing its some weird local law that got overturned since this happened or something of that nature, assuming of course.
How about stealing $1 MILLION from a lady. Is that blown out of proportion? http://www.thedailysheeple.com/cops-ordered-to-return-over-1-million-seized-from-innocent-woman-and-fed-gov-ordered-to-pay-nearly-40k-in-legal-fees_022014
Averageman
09-16-14, 13:06
Obviously I am looking at it from my experience and point of view, but id like to see their reason for taking the property. They have to fill out paperwork in reference to it, I want to see that paperwork.
As ive stated before, I highly doubt the problem is as large as the media makes it out to be.
Im guessing its some weird local law that got overturned since this happened or something of that nature, assuming of course.
If you go back up to that video at the end of it there is a follow on video that is about 45 minutes in length explaining how this is being misused in Tennessee.
On I40, the claim is the east bound lanes bring the dope in and the west bound lanes take the money out. The seizure laws were being so misused the east bound lane was dramatically less enforced than the "money" lane. The surrounding counties had an agreement to allow various departments get in on the action even if the highway didn't go through their county.
I'm not anti law enforcement by any means, I just think this is being misused and the video is pretty clear about it.
ForTehNguyen
09-16-14, 22:09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU_nh51FU14
Belmont31R
09-17-14, 00:04
You make a lot if money. Congrats.
I don't. Big deal.
Seizures are an effective way to disable criminal organization when utilized lawfully. Just like anything else they get abused.
The problem with civil asset forfeiture is that this is legal abuse.
Not the same as an authority or power or right that gets abused. This is legalized theft. Threw due process and all of our other rights out the window because its cool to drive around in a drug dealers car. But this measure does not follow any standard legal doctrine. In a class all of its own. Like locking a kid up in a room, telling them no is going to watch, and telling them if they eat some of the candy no one is going to really care.
Abuse of a good authority implies abuse would actually really be an isolated incident. This is systematic and Im sure theres a ton of pumped up police officers out there that enjoy taking people's property. But there opinion is one side of this, and if we LEO's decide what is right this country would be a far different place.
Averageman
09-17-14, 10:17
Abuse of a good authority implies abuse would actually really be an isolated incident. This is systematic and Im sure theres a ton of pumped up police officers out there that enjoy taking people's property. But there opinion is one side of this, and if we LEO's decide what is right this country would be a far different place.
The part that really made the point to me was the truck driver with 200K in the trailer being coached as to how to give up the money and not be arrested. It was clear the negotiations were being made under the threat of calling in the Fed's.
Either give up the money and walk away with your truck and trailer or I will call the Fed's and it's going to be a lot different story when they find the money.
platoonDaddy
09-19-14, 15:38
Just watching Alaskan State Troopers on National Geographic: Troopers requested permission to search the vehicle and the lady denied them access. Prior to receiving a search warrant, they then confiscated ladies purse, man's jacket and other items from the car and inserted into evidence bag The man & lady were then allowed to leave the scene. Sometime later back at the station, they received the search warrant and then searched the items in the evidence bag.
If they didn't have a search warrant, are they allowed to demand you turn over items? How is that legal?
Just watching Alaskan State Troopers on National Geographic: Troopers requested permission to search the vehicle and the lady denied them access. Prior to receiving a search warrant, they then confiscated ladies purse, man's jacket and other items from the car and inserted into evidence bag The man & lady were then allowed to leave the scene. Sometime later back at the station, they received the search warrant and then searched the items in the evidence bag.
If they didn't have a search warrant, are they allowed to demand you turn over items? How is that legal?
Prevention of evidence tampering. They also will do knock and talks, if they smell weed or something they won't let you back in the house and will wait for a warrant. Or tow your car and wait for warrant etc.
If they didn't have a search warrant, are they allowed to demand you turn over items? How is that legal?
I don't how it's legal, but if they don't have enough PC to search it then and there without permission, they shouldn't be able to confiscate it in my opinion.
Eurodriver
09-19-14, 16:09
Just watching Alaskan State Troopers on National Geographic: Troopers requested permission to search the vehicle and the lady denied them access. Prior to receiving a search warrant, they then confiscated ladies purse, man's jacket and other items from the car and inserted into evidence bag The man & lady were then allowed to leave the scene. Sometime later back at the station, they received the search warrant and then searched the items in the evidence bag.
If they didn't have a search warrant, are they allowed to demand you turn over items? How is that legal?
That's interesting. I watched one episode where they knew there was illegal stuff going on and they had good intel but couldn't find probable cause and had to let the guys walk. It made me a little happy inside
Your story removed that happiness. Prevention of evidence tampering seems kind of bogus and along the lines of forfeiture. What happens if nothing is found?? Do they give your stuff back ?
I don't how it's legal, but if they don't have enough PC to search it then and there without permission, they shouldn't be able to confiscate it in my opinion.
I'm not 100% on this, and I don't know alaskan law, but I'm assuming that they have "articulable facts" for PC, but either (a) require a warrant by law to search container/residence/vehicle or , (b) just want to cover themselves and get a warrant.
maybe an alaskan LEO can give us some insight.
That's interesting. I watched one episode where they knew there was illegal stuff going on and they had good intel but couldn't find probable cause and had to let the guys walk. It made me a little happy inside
Your story removed that happiness. Prevention of evidence tampering seems kind of bogus and along the lines of forfeiture. What happens if nothing is found?? Do they give your stuff back ?
Yes. I'm sure it still requires some sort of a hassle though
Voodoo_Man
09-19-14, 16:30
I saw the episode you guys are talking about.
The trooper looked into the vehicle and observed what he believed to be narcotics or some form of narcotic paraphernalia. Based up on his observations he confiscated those items and applied for a search warrant for those items. That was something that by Alaska state law needed to be done. In my AO, if I saw narcotics or some form of narcotic paraphernalia, it would enough for a warrant-less search of those specific items. The way the trooper did it is perfectly legal and the text book way of doing it - the other route he could have went was to hold the entire vehicle for a search warrant, not just the articles of clothing/bag.
"Prevention of evidence tampering" is a no-BS legit reason. Before the laws changed locally we had to sit on a vehicle, even if we found narcotics (through consent, plain view or otherwise) and wait for a search warrant. Now a days, if I see narcotics, it is PC to search the rest of the vehicle. If I find more I can either keep going or stop and wait for a warrant (which is what we do to error on the side of legal caution). It is also a reason to enter a property without a search warrant, but like everything else, you need to have facts to explain why the officer did that, in respect to vehicles that is simple, mobility.
I saw the episode you guys are talking about.
The trooper looked into the vehicle and observed what he believed to be narcotics or some form of narcotic paraphernalia. Based up on his observations he confiscated those items and applied for a search warrant for those items. That was something that by Alaska state law needed to be done. In my AO, if I saw narcotics or some form of narcotic paraphernalia, it would enough for a warrant-less search of those specific items. The way the trooper did it is perfectly legal and the text book way of doing it - the other route he could have went was to hold the entire vehicle for a search warrant, not just the articles of clothing/bag.
"Prevention of evidence tampering" is a no-BS legit reason. Before the laws changed locally we had to sit on a vehicle, even if we found narcotics (through consent, plain view or otherwise) and wait for a search warrant. Now a days, if I see narcotics, it is PC to search the rest of the vehicle. If I find more I can either keep going or stop and wait for a warrant (which is what we do to error on the side of legal caution). It is also a reason to enter a property without a search warrant, but like everything else, you need to have facts to explain why the officer did that, in respect to vehicles that is simple, mobility.
thanks for clearing it up, thats what I figured was going on.
On topic video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks
IN New York, apparently any amount is subject to theft (I mean forfeiture).
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-allegedly-1-300-cash-man-pocket-article-1.1967792
Voodoo_Man
10-09-14, 06:01
IN New York, apparently any amount is subject to theft (I mean forfeiture).
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-allegedly-1-300-cash-man-pocket-article-1.1967792
While I don't believe anything any "daily" rag says about any LE entity, they mention a call for a "man with a gun" towards the bottom, which would give the officers responding a legitimate reason to be there and possibly investigate those who are around that area matching the description give over police radio.
Furthermore, allegations of theft are just that, allegations. I cannot say how many times I have heard of officers being accused of stealing money or the like from people they stopped legally. The news/media likes to make it very one sided and burn the officers right away without investigation. Often times when IA gets into the investigation the complaining party cannot produce any record of having that money on their person (bank slips, a boss saying he was paid that money that day, etc). BTW "construction workers" don't have brand new Timberland sneakers and "fresh" clothing after dark hanging around on the corner....just an observation.
Often times when IA gets into the investigation the complaining party cannot produce any record of having that money on their person (bank slips, a boss saying he was paid that money that day, etc).
But that's the whole point. Some cops allegedly stop people, ask if they have cash on them, then ask them to prove that the cash is legal. If they can't, they confiscate it. So of course when IA checks on them they can't prove they had it... If they could, it wouldn't have been taken in the first place. I mean possibly not, but usually proof of having the money is proof that it's not illegal drug money.
Voodoo_Man
10-09-14, 07:57
But that's the whole point. Some cops allegedly stop people, ask if they have cash on them, then ask them to prove that the cash is legal. If they can't, they confiscate it. So of course when IA checks on them they can't prove they had it... If they could, it wouldn't have been taken in the first place. I mean possibly not, but usually proof of having the money is proof that it's not illegal drug money.
I can tell you from personal experience that whenever officers did exactly that they not only were suspended but the money returned, in fact I only heard of two, one was suspended for around 20 days the other was fired and charged with theft.
The situation which I was referring to was the post made by Iraqgunz, in that article. That alleged theft and accusation against an officer.
On topic video:
That's got some gems in it.
I can tell you from personal experience that whenever officers did exactly that they not only were suspended but the money returned, in fact I only heard of two, one was suspended for around 20 days the other was fired and charged with theft.
The situation which I was referring to was the post made by Iraqgunz, in that article. That alleged theft and accusation against an officer.
No, no, no. That's the wrong answer. The correct answer is nothing is ever done to any of those meanie cops, and if something was done, it was enough. Bottom line. No sense in trying to say otherwise...
The Civil Forfeiture thing has been going on long before 911. It was brought to us during Bush's time as a tool to fight the war on drugs. It allowed local law enforcement agencies to seize and keep monies and property during drug arrests and to keep the assets, even if charges were not pressed. It's a law that needs to be overturned
Going all the way back to the OP's description of his vehicle, the bag with tools, flashlight, etc. could be all Law Enforcement needs for PC: "Burglary Tools". Secondly, if this is a systemic problem, who in their right mind would be carrying a large amount of cash in your vehicle? If you need to make a large dollar amount purchase in person, use a cashier's check. The documentation of specific incidents indicates there is a problem with Law Enforcement that makes them no better than a strong arm robber, except they carry a badge with legal authority. I think this sort of activity has been around for a lot longer than since 9/11. We're in the information age and now every little or big incident gets exposure on the web, or the 5 o'clock news.
Reagans Rascals
10-10-14, 01:24
I was arrested in Texas 4 months ago as a friend and I were driving through the state. We were stopped on suspicion of drunk driving because we had been driving for 19 hours, were fatigued and had no cruise control as we made our way through the hills, therefore our speed was considered "not stable" as in fast and slow fast and slow. When pulled over we were both asked to get out of the vehicle, my CCW was unloaded, holstered and underneath my seat. It being a small car (FRS) and I myself being a large man, I was required to slide the seat all the way to the rear to get out, thus exposing my weapon. And although I have a Virginia CCW, which has reciprocity with Texas, I was promptly arrested and booked for "UCW with a License"... unlawful carry of a weapon with a license, because my weapon was "in plain sight."
This took place on a Friday night. My weapon was seized as evidence and I sat in jail until Monday morning at which time I was arraigned and told I would either have to bond out or go to county. I bonded out on 5k. I asked for my weapon back and was told it was evidence and I would be required to forfeit regardless of outcome. I retained an attorney and then began the waiting game.
4 months later, still waiting for charges to make it to the CP's office, my lawyer tells me they never charged me. The County Prosecutor found no grounds to charge me and flushed the case. So here I sit, $1020 for bond, $2000 for a lawyer, my weapon taken and in the end I was never charged with a crime..... My lawyer is still currently fighting the good fight to get my Sig Sauer Scorpion Carry TB 1911 with TLR-1S light and Statureman Kydex Holster returned to me...
Legal extortion does exist.... I have experienced it first hand... I have lost at least $3020 and 3 days of my life in jail.... close to $5000 if my weapon is in fact not returned...
and as a result of it all... I missed the funeral I was driving to attend and I'll never go to Texas again in my life...
That's a pretty sh**ty law IMO. Damn... Hopefully you get your weapon back.
I was arrested in Texas 4 months ago as a friend and I were driving through the state. We were stopped on suspicion of drunk driving because we had been driving for 19 hours, were fatigued and had no cruise control as we made our way through the hills, therefore our speed was considered "not stable" as in fast and slow fast and slow. When pulled over we were both asked to get out of the vehicle, my CCW was unloaded, holstered and underneath my seat. It being a small car (FRS) and I myself being a large man, I was required to slide the seat all the way to the rear to get out, thus exposing my weapon. And although I have a Virginia CCW, which has reciprocity with Texas, I was promptly arrested and booked for "UCW with a License"... unlawful carry of a weapon with a license, because my weapon was "in plain sight."
This took place on a Friday night. My weapon was seized as evidence and I sat in jail until Monday morning at which time I was arraigned and told I would either have to bond out or go to county. I bonded out on 5k. I asked for my weapon back and was told it was evidence and I would be required to forfeit regardless of outcome. I retained an attorney and then began the waiting game.
4 months later, still waiting for charges to make it to the CP's office, my lawyer tells me they never charged me. The County Prosecutor found no grounds to charge me and flushed the case. So here I sit, $1020 for bond, $2000 for a lawyer, my weapon taken and in the end I was never charged with a crime..... My lawyer is still currently fighting the good fight to get my Sig Sauer Scorpion Carry TB 1911 with TLR-1S light and Statureman Kydex Holster returned to me...
Legal extortion does exist.... I have experienced it first hand... I have lost at least $3020 and 3 days of my life in jail.... close to $5000 if my weapon is in fact not returned...
and as a result of it all... I missed the funeral I was driving to attend and I'll never go to Texas again in my life...
Sorry to hear that.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-10-14, 09:06
I was arrested in Texas 4 months ago as a friend and I were driving through the state. We were stopped on suspicion of drunk driving because we had been driving for 19 hours, were fatigued and had no cruise control as we made our way through the hills, therefore our speed was considered "not stable" as in fast and slow fast and slow. When pulled over we were both asked to get out of the vehicle, my CCW was unloaded, holstered and underneath my seat. It being a small car (FRS) and I myself being a large man, I was required to slide the seat all the way to the rear to get out, thus exposing my weapon. And although I have a Virginia CCW, which has reciprocity with Texas, I was promptly arrested and booked for "UCW with a License"... unlawful carry of a weapon with a license, because my weapon was "in plain sight."
This took place on a Friday night. My weapon was seized as evidence and I sat in jail until Monday morning at which time I was arraigned and told I would either have to bond out or go to county. I bonded out on 5k. I asked for my weapon back and was told it was evidence and I would be required to forfeit regardless of outcome. I retained an attorney and then began the waiting game.
4 months later, still waiting for charges to make it to the CP's office, my lawyer tells me they never charged me. The County Prosecutor found no grounds to charge me and flushed the case. So here I sit, $1020 for bond, $2000 for a lawyer, my weapon taken and in the end I was never charged with a crime..... My lawyer is still currently fighting the good fight to get my Sig Sauer Scorpion Carry TB 1911 with TLR-1S light and Statureman Kydex Holster returned to me...
Legal extortion does exist.... I have experienced it first hand... I have lost at least $3020 and 3 days of my life in jail.... close to $5000 if my weapon is in fact not returned...
and as a result of it all... I missed the funeral I was driving to attend and I'll never go to Texas again in my life...
Terrible experience man. I hope it all works out and you get your gun back.
I amazes me that theft by LE like this happens as often as it does. If you are not charged with anything you should get your shit back right away. Being told that this can and does happen in many states is no help, but I am sorry that it happened here in Texas. Can I ask where this happened?
Good luck getting your firearm back RR. What a sorry situation to be in. Reading of these horror stories, it makes one think more about how to operate now on America's roads and highways. When you're in your vehicle on a public road, you're on Law Enforcement's turf when it comes to traffic laws, and any interaction with them. I guess we'll have to conceal our cash better, keep our sidearms better hidden from sight, and avoid any contact with these roadside pirates. Of all the Good Guy Police Officers, it's still a very small percentage that runs roughshod over the public.
I was arrested in Texas 4 months ago as a friend and I were driving through the state...
and as a result of it all... I missed the funeral I was driving to attend and I'll never go to Texas again in my life...
The amount of people who get seriously F'ed over by the system, by people just doing their jobs, is mind boggling. I hope you get your gun back.
Reagans Rascals
10-10-14, 13:43
Terrible experience man. I hope it all works out and you get your gun back.
I amazes me that theft by LE like this happens as often as it does. If you are not charged with anything you should get your shit back right away. Being told that this can and does happen in many states is no help, but I am sorry that it happened here in Texas. Can I ask where this happened?
not far outside of Killeen/Ft. Hood area... the individuals whose car I was in, being a purple heart recipient, medically retired from the army after 3 deployments with purple heart license plates and full military stickers on the car with military ID... still was afforded no professional courtesy, his weapon being confiscated as well
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