View Full Version : Do I need pic rail the entire top of a handguard?
I'm slowly beginning another build. I'm also coming close to analysis paralysis with regard to which free floated handguard to use. I'm in no way married to Keymod or M-lok. In researching the countless options I've noticed some companies are offering systems where there is only picatinny rail on top at the end where an iron sight would traditionally be placed.
Here is the MI example.
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1264
SLR Rifleworks also has a similar design.
http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=66_71
None of my rifles (duty or personal) have a laser and if they did I could attach them on the side or in place of a BUIS at 12 o'clock. To date I have used that location only for a light, flip up sight or both. I haven't ever used the top rail between the muzzle end and the upper receiver. In addition I end up having to add something to protect the rail and my hand.
With that in mind, I see no logical reason I'd need the rail to run the entire length of the handguard. But for some reason it feels wrong to go that route. Thoughts??
.46caliber
09-10-14, 20:08
Use a thumb over top grip? If so, a naked top might be more comfortable. In addition to those rails above, the ALG EMRs are naked with separate co-witness pieces for adding an iron.
Saves weight, makes a more comfortable over top grip. And with the modularity, you can add rail where you need it.
I was looking at the same options you were. Price and the barrel nut setup led me to choose the ALG EMR.
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I don't use thumb over. But if I add a section of rail won't it be taller than an integrated rail?
A keymod top rail actually makes a lot of sense if you have no use for a 1913 rail on top. I imagine there are obvious weight gains with keymod at 12 o'clock. However, with the transition from 1913 rail on top of the upper receiver to keymod on the rail would be a lot more aesthetically pleasing to use a one piece rail/upper.
Is anyone working on a keymod front sight? Would it hold a zero as well as a 1913 front sight?
F-Trooper05
09-10-14, 20:36
Are you just trying to save as much weight as possible? IMO the rail on the top might not always be necessary, but it doesn't really hurt anything either. And who knows, you might decide to rock a pressure switch or DBAL/PEQ15 some day. (Full disclosure: all of my guns still rock quad rails).
If you aren't going to use it, you don't need it. Save the onces, I have the SLR and it is really good! I don't miss the full pic rail on top either.
.46caliber
09-10-14, 21:06
I don't use thumb over. But if I add a section of rail won't it be taller than an integrated rail?
For the EMR, there are two different add-on rail pieces. One size is for mounting around the perimeter for things like VFGs, lights or off-sets. The other is a co-witness height that will line up level with the rail on top of the upper receiver.
ALG may be working on a longer piece for running an iron and a light in the 12 o'clock.
I don't know if the MI or SLR offerings have add-on pieces for the top rail.
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I don't see why you would need the rail all the way on top but FWIW, the BCM 13 inch KMR is lighter than either of the rails you mentioned
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR13-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr13.htm
TacticalMark
09-10-14, 22:30
I think you already answered your own question. What is the purpose of your new build?
Is anyone working on a keymod front sight? Would it hold a zero as well as a 1913 front sight?
KAC has a keymod front flip sight for their urx4, but I'm not certain that it's the proper height for a traditionally-placed front sight, as I think it's designed to be a 45° / offset set. Worth a look.
birdkiller
09-11-14, 02:46
I think it depends on how you set up your sling/sight/light. I had a JP hand guard with only enough rail for the front sight, and it limited my options. I changed it out for the MI SSK, with full top rail. This opened up enough room for my front sight and a 12 o'clock X300 mount. I run my sling in the built in sling mounts, but if your hand guard doesn't have one, its easy to mount a sling off the top rail as well. If all you will ever want to mount on top is your sight and you want to try something different I'd say mess around with one of the options you mentioned, but if you think it may be a possibility I don't see what it takes away to have the full length rail.
I like the top rail so I can check perfect alignment with the upper.
I think you already answered your own question. What is the purpose of your new build?
Are you just trying to save as much weight as possible? IMO the rail on the top might not always be necessary, but it doesn't really hurt anything either. And who knows, you might decide to rock a pressure switch or DBAL/PEQ15 some day. (Full disclosure: all of my guns still rock quad rails).
The rifle doesn't really have a specific mission/purpose. I already have a precision 5.56 rifle, and a SBR for HD (and both see use in competitions/classes). This rifle is more of a fun build because I can. I'm not trying to make it crazy light (as in no forward assist, pencil bbl), but if I can shave ounces in places where they aren't doing anything other than adding ounces... I just want to know what, if anything I'm giving up by going down that path.
I can always mount a laser on the side, or at 12 o'clock (moving the light offset to the right) if I do that. I see a quality laser as a viable backup to an optic, so I'd probably ditch BUIS if I did that. I am also not a big fan of pressure switches - or more to the point, cables on my rifles. Is anyone making an M-Lok or Keymod direct mount setup for lasers yet?
For the EMR, there are two different add-on rail pieces. One size is for mounting around the perimeter for things like VFGs, lights or off-sets. The other is a co-witness height that will line up level with the rail on top of the upper receiver.
ALG may be working on a longer piece for running an iron and a light in the 12 o'clock.
I don't know if the MI or SLR offerings have add-on pieces for the top rail.
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Interesting. I'm still not sure I'd need them (and the ALG seems to have no top rail at all, making a co-witness height option necessary), as there is top rail at the front.
ETA: the ALG doesn't come in a 15" model which eliminates it anyway.
I don't see why you would need the rail all the way on top but FWIW, the BCM 13 inch KMR is lighter than either of the rails you mentioned
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR13-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr13.htm
It is lighter - until you add the QD sockets on the BCM. The MI comes with them already.
I like the top rail so I can check perfect alignment with the upper.
Would the segment of rail at the point where the upper meets the handguard be sufficient? Or would you need the entire top rail to be sure?
Yeah.. just a little section is good... I mean.. it's not a deal breaker... just nice to be able to align them perfectly.
I must have a top rail because that's where my front BUIS and light mounts go. I guess I could go Keymod for the light and just use the pic rail for the front BUIS... MI, stop releasing lighter rails! As soon as I buy your lightest, latest and greatest, you come out with something lighter and better!
Yeah.. just a little section is good... I mean.. it's not a deal breaker... just nice to be able to align them perfectly.
Cool - thanks. That's what I was thinking, but this will only be my 3rd build so I still have much to learn.
I must have a top rail because that's where my front BUIS and light mounts go. I guess I could go Keymod for the light and just use the pic rail for the front BUIS... MI, stop releasing lighter rails! As soon as I buy your lightest, latest and greatest, you come out with something lighter and better!
LOL! To be fair, the versions I'm considering from MI and SLR have rail at the end for a light/BUIS. They just do away with the rail between there and the upper receiver.
I think you answered the question yourself. If you only need a top rail for mounting a front BUIS, and aren't going to be mounting an offset light, sling mount, offset red dot, IR laser, clip-on NV, or any other accessory, you might as well skip it and enjoy lighter weight and a more comfortable grip.
Or you could just buy a quad rail and never have to worry about anything ever again.
Or you could just buy a quad rail and never have to worry about anything ever again.
Lol! Anytime I'm feeling nostalgic I can bust out my duty rifle. It has that old technology. ;)
I'm hoping Gear Sector releases their new handguard sooner than later. I've been super impressed with everything they've made so far.
Lol! Anytime I'm feeling nostalgic I can bust out my duty rifle. It has that old technology. ;)
I'm hoping Gear Sector releases their new handguard sooner than later. I've been super impressed with everything they've made so far.
1913 rails are so old school that they're still the standard and still work better than modular Keymod stuff.
Get with the times...
1913 rails are so old school that they're still the standard and still work better than modular Keymod stuff.
Get with the times...
Not really sure if you're being funny/sarcastic or serious. A quad rail either gives me a cheese grader feel or I have to add more weight and bulk covering the rails. A quad rail handguard is not even being considered. I'm only trying to determine if there is value in a full length top rail.
I'm sorry your lily soft hands can't touch a rail. You're really missing out on a lot simplicity and durability.
I'm sorry your lily soft hands can't touch a rail. You're really missing out on a lot simplicity and durability.
Aww... That's cute. When you're ready to have an adult conversation and stop acting like an 8th grader, we'll be here.
.46caliber
09-14-14, 12:19
Back to topic, OP there has been some updates on the ALG EMR that I wanted to make sure you're aware of.
The MLOK variant has been revised to include machined flats at the attachment points to ensure compatibility with all accessories. A rep of ALG also noted they are planning to release a 15" but no ETA.
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I have no need for the entire top rail on almost all of my rifles and I decided to try out the above 15" SLR solo lite rail. I do have a KMR but the SLR is a good bit less expensive albeit a couple ounces more, but that is not an issue in my case. A top rail delete can save some weight, even BCM could cut down weight even more if they wished. Maybe more important than the pure weight savings is that it also allows the thumb to be a bit lower profile with a thumb over bore grip in relation to the sights / sight picture and it does feel more correct to me with this type of grip. The SLR does have a section that aligns to the receivers top rail to ensure correct timing of the rail so that is not an issue. I do feel that the BCM rail has a better barrel nut attachment design, but I don't expect much problems from the SLR rail for its intended use on the rifle that it is mounted on.
I will note that I am not digging the ultra lite rifle builds and I have built a few for myself. I think the ultra light rails are good trade offs in weight, allowing for a barrel profile and type that I prefer as I am not digging the very light weight profile barrels. I am also noting that with all of these ultra light rails, there is no doubt that the "tactical glove" market has greatly increased their sales as a result of the new minimalist rails. ;)
Back to topic, OP there has been some updates on the ALG EMR that I wanted to make sure you're aware of.
The MLOK variant has been revised to include machined flats at the attachment points to ensure compatibility with all accessories. A rep of ALG also noted they are planning to release a 15" but no ETA.
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Thanks. I haven't made a final decision yet so we'll see what ALG and Gear Sector bring out. At this point I'm not married to either KM or M-Lok.
I have no need for the entire top rail on almost all of my rifles and I decided to try out the above 15" SLR solo lite rail. I do have a KMR but the SLR is a good bit less expensive albeit a couple ounces more, but that is not an issue in my case. A top rail delete can save some weight, even BCM could cut down weight even more if they wished. Maybe more important than the pure weight savings is that it also allows the thumb to be a bit lower profile with a thumb over bore grip in relation to the sights / sight picture and it does feel more correct to me with this type of grip. The SLR does have a section that aligns to the receivers top rail to ensure correct timing of the rail so that is not an issue. I do feel that the BCM rail has a better barrel nut attachment design, but I don't expect much problems from the SLR rail for its intended use on the rifle that it is mounted on.
I will note that I am not digging the ultra lite rifle builds and I have built a few for myself. I think the ultra light rails are good trade offs in weight, allowing for a barrel profile and type that I prefer as I am not digging the very light weight profile barrels. I am also noting that with all of these ultra light rails, there is no doubt that the "tactical glove" market has greatly increased their sales as a result of the new minimalist rails. ;)
Good to know - thanks. I agree about the uber-lightweight builds. This build has a medcon bbl from RA which I feel is a great balance in terms of rigidity and weight.
If the rifle was a SBR with a 10 or 11 inch handguard I'd be more inclined to get a full length top rail. I am curious if there will be more heat mirage in front of the optic with a handguard that has M-lok or KM openings on top.
I have a handguard with vents in the top and when things get hot, there is definite mirage from the heated air pouring from them.
I am a minimalist when it comes to my rifles and I have no rails on any of my handguards. I may go with a short section for a light on my HD ARs if I ever replace the MOE handguards with a FF tube
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/ARPile002_zpsfe1ba810.jpg
I have a handguard with vents in the top and when things get hot, there is definite mirage from the heated air pouring from them.
I am a minimalist when it comes to my rifles and I have no rails on any of my handguards. I may go with a short section for a light on my HD ARs if I ever replace the MOE handguards with a FF tube
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/ARPile002_zpsfe1ba810.jpg
Hmm.. that solidifies my decision to stick with a top rail on my SPR upgrade. For the build I'm discussing in this thread I may wait for more reviews of the MI and SLR 15" handguards.
Is the mirage distracting all the time or do you only notice it during slow, precision shooting? Thanks!
Only during precision fire using higher magnification and only after the barrel gets hot. If I were to put some speed tape inside the handguard to cover the top vents, I think it would solve the problem. When the mirage becomes noticeable at the range, I take it as a sign to let things cool a bit.
I'm sure you can find non-railed forearms that don't have top vents. The point is, if you want a top rail, get one. If you don't, don't. A top rail is not needed. Neither is a wrong choice. If this choice keeps you from finishing your rifle so you can take it out shooting, you're over thinking it
Only during precision fire using higher magnification and only after the barrel gets hot. If I were to put some speed tape inside the handguard to cover the top vents, I think it would solve the problem. When the mirage becomes noticeable at the range, I take it as a sign to let things cool a bit.
I'm sure you can find non-railed forearms that don't have top vents. The point is, if you want a top rail, get one. If you don't, don't. A top rail is not needed. Neither is a wrong choice. If this choice keeps you from finishing your rifle so you can take it out shooting, you're over thinking it
Makes sense - thanks. I'm not over thinking anything. Just doing research. This build is nowhere near ready and isn't being held up by this decision. Like others I've done, I buy parts for a build every few months to spread the cost as I don't have the ability to purchase everything at one time. I have the upper/lower, stock, and just got the bbl this week. While reviewing the various options for handguards I noticed several makers offering them without, and it hit me I've never used the rails in that area to mount anything.
I have a handguard with vents in the top and when things get hot, there is definite mirage from the heated air pouring from them.
Have rifle with the same prob Mist and at times it can get quite annoying.
-Jax
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