View Full Version : Islamic State "not Islamic", says Obama
wild_wild_wes
09-10-14, 20:39
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/10/full-text-of-president-barack-obamas-special-address-on-combating-the-islamic-state-isis-isil/
The public wakens to the threat from the Islamic State and wants something to be done about it; Obama responds by reversing his current policies and going along; i.e., "leading from behind".
Moose-Knuckle
09-10-14, 21:55
Why of course the Islamic State is not Islamic, just like he isn't . . .
BoringGuy45
09-10-14, 22:05
Well, if we're going to be fair about it, the Puritans were not really Protestant Christian, and the Crusaders were not Catholic.
I swear, he spends more time defending Islam than he does defending America.
Averageman
09-10-14, 22:17
Well now, he should know all about it.
Yes, he really is that dumb. I think by now Valerie's teleprompter is hot wired into the dumbass' brain. His mouth says the stupidest things and his brain is still thinking about ESPN.
Obama saw the poll numbers and had to appear to do something. He knows that most numpties out there have a very short attention span and will lose focus when something more entertaining comes along.
As an aside, I'm got a good laugh from my wife during the speech. Tonight my son (who is 2 1/2) walked in on me watching Obama's speech. He came in with toys in tow to ask me the names of the different characters in the Cars movie. He looked at the TV pointed at Obama and said "what's his name?" My wife, following behind him, said "Useless". I said "Useless?" She said "That is the nicest name she could think of for him (Obama) that our son could repeat."
The problem with that is the term "innocent" has not been defined.
Deuteronomy talks about wiping out entire ethnic groups, but they were all guilty of "detestable things".
It's not "Islamic", per se. It's Wahabbist which wages war on Islamic nations. They've yet to do anything but wage war on Islamic nations. However, they do provide the perfect cover for waging war on Assad now...
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
wild_wild_wes
09-11-14, 11:20
I swear, he spends more time defending Islam than he does defending America.
Many people have not figured out that his true enemies are certain types of Americans, and anything else is a distraction to him
Doc Safari
09-11-14, 11:47
I swear, he spends more time defending Islam than he does defending America.
Bingo. And placing Muslim Brotherhood cronies in high places in our government, smuggling arms to his Islamic buddies in the Mideast, going against Israel every chance he gets....
Could the evidence be any more clear that this guy is at the very least a Muslim sympathizer?
I'm anxious to see if this "war" against ISIS is mostly token attacks on things that don't amount to a hill of beans, or if he really gets with it and kicks their ass.
Anyone care to make any bets?
Bingo. And placing Muslim Brotherhood cronies in high places in our government, smuggling arms to his Islamic buddies in the Mideast, going against Israel every chance he gets....
Could the evidence be any more clear that this guy is at the very least a Muslim sympathizer?
I'm anxious to see if this "war" against ISIS is mostly token attacks on things that don't amount to a hill of beans, or if he really gets with it and kicks their ass.
Anyone care to make any bets?
I don't think ill be taking you up on that. I work too hard for my money to lose it.
It's not "Islamic", per se. It's Wahabbist which wages war on Islamic nations. They've yet to do anything but wage war on Islamic nations. However, they do provide the perfect cover for waging war on Assad now...
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Wahhabi is not Islam? That's funny because many consider it the most "correct" and orthodox form of Islam and the primary source of Wahhabi is Saudi Arabia which is the "mecca" for Islam. It is a sect of Sunni Islam. They call themselves "Salafi" because they practice the earliest, original form of Islam.
I can't think of a sect of Islam that doesn't wage war on other sects. Iranian Shia and Iraqi Sunni mulsims fought for nearly a decades. Are you saying they weren't Muslims?
That is like me saying Chan or Mikkyo aren't Buddhism simply because they are different sects of Buddhism.
brickboy240
09-11-14, 14:49
Where are the leftist peaceniks that denounced any military actions by Bush?
...awful quiet aren't they?
Moose-Knuckle
09-11-14, 15:15
Where are the leftist peaceniks that denounced any military actions by Bush?
...awful quiet aren't they?
Even Barry's left most advisors are telling him that he has to do something, mid terms are in a couple of months. This is all about politics, not the safety of We the People.
Wahhabi is not Islam? That's funny because many consider it the most "correct" and orthodox form of Islam and the primary source of Wahhabi is Saudi Arabia which is the "mecca" for Islam. It is a sect of Sunni Islam. They call themselves "Salafi" because they practice the earliest, original form of Islam.
I can't think of a sect of Islam that doesn't wage war on other sects. Iranian Shia and Iraqi Sunni mulsims fought for nearly a decades. Are you saying they weren't Muslims?
That is like me saying Chan or Mikkyo aren't Buddhism simply because they are different sects of Buddhism.
Well those who are experts in Islam would tell you (as they've told me) and from what I've researched is that is NOT "the most correct". Fundamentalist? Yep. That's what the Salafists believe.
Speak with a learned Muslim that's not from Saudi Arabia and even a Saudi If he's NOT in Saudi Arabia and he'll also tell you most vehemently that Wahabbism and Salafism are heretical.
If you study the history of Wahabbism you'll find that it is a British-nurtured and funded sect from Day One in their goal of dividing and conquering.
Just the facts.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Doc Safari
09-11-14, 15:28
Even Barry's left most advisors are telling him that he has to do something, mid terms are in a couple of months. This is all about politics, not the safety of We the People.
Barry is a Muslim, but is beholden to the Dems that helped him get into power. He helped get weapons to Syrian rebels (now ISIS), and that is what lead to the whole Benghazi scandal. It was "Fast & Furious" middle east style. Now he's conflicted: he's got to save the dems' bacon or the Congress will melt into Republican hands bigger than in 1994. At the same time he doesn't really want to harm his Muslim warriors that he sympathizes with.
So....what's an amateur president to do?
Do you already see the answer?
He has to appear to "do something" while not really turning back the tide of ISIS or its gains, except as token "victories". He only has to keep the American people thinking we're going to really kick butt until after the November election.
Then he will grant amnesty to milliions of illegal aliens. He will suddenly "lose his enthusiasm" for going after ISIS. He ends up putting millions more Americans at risk.
Yes, I'm biased. I believe he hates this country and would grant amnesty to Ebola if he thought it would hurt the US--a country he considers a colonialist imperialist evil run by those greedy white people that only want to starve his homies in Third World countries.
"White Folks Greed runs a World in Need" is a phrase out of his own mouth. I know Media Matters claims he was simply quoting Jeremiah Wright in the audio version of his book. This is the same Jeremiah Wright he tried to distance himself from while running for president even though he attended the "reverend's" church for years. The fact is that Barry believes it just as much as Wright or he wouldn't have made it a point to quote it.
We have our "Manchurian Candidate" in the White House.
I question whether American will survive two more years with this man.
Moose-Knuckle
09-11-14, 15:32
Barry is a Muslim, but is beholden to the Dems that helped him get into power. He helped get weapons to Syrian rebels (now ISIS), and that is what lead to the whole Benghazi scandal. It was "Fast & Furious" middle east style. Now he's conflicted: he's got to save the dems' bacon or the Congress will melt into Republican hands bigger than in 1994. At the same time he doesn't really want to harm his Muslim warriors that he sympathizes with.
So....what's an amateur president to do?
Do you already see the answer?
He has to appear to "do something" while not really turning back the tide of ISIS or its gains, except as token "victories". He only has to keep the American people thinking we're going to really kick butt until after the November election.
Then he will grant amnesty to milliions of illegal aliens. He will suddenly "lose his enthusiasm" for going after ISIS. He ends up putting millions more Americans at risk.
Yes, I'm biased. I believe he hates this country and would grant amnesty to Ebola if he thought it would hurt the US--a country he considers a colonialist imperialist evil run by those greedy while people that only want to starve his homies in Third World countries.
"White Folks Greed runs a World in Need" is a phrase out of his own mouth. I know Media Matters claims he was simply quoting Jeremiah Wright in the audio version of his book. This is the same Jeremiah Wright he tried to distance himself from while running for president even though he attended the "reverend's" church for years. The fact is that Barry believes it just as much as Wright or he wouldn't have made it a point to quote it.
We have our "Manchurian Candidate" in the White House.
I question whether American will survive two more years with this man.
You sir are on point and I agree with all of the above.
Even Barry's left most advisors are telling him that he has to do something, mid terms are in a couple of months. This is all about politics, not the safety of We the People.
Considering he is pushing off the immigration/border bill until after the mid-term elections, the ENTIRE COUNTRY should see straight through this.
The History of Wahhabbism
http://fas.org/irp/eprint/iraqi/wahhabi.pdf
And this...
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/sleeping-with-the-devil-how-u-s-and-saudi-backing-of-al-qaeda-led-to-911.html
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
If you study the history of Wahabbism you'll find that it is a British-nurtured and funded sect from Day One in their goal of dividing and conquering.
Just the facts.
No, that's just a conspiracy theory.
Makes me feel bad to defend the Brits.
No, that's just a conspiracy theory.
Makes me feel bad to defend the Brits.
Then you've not delved very deeply into it...
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Links to... Great Britain (actually the Crown not the British people).
https://kanaanonline.org//articles/00361.pdf
And this video...
http://thepoisonappleoftheworld.com/wahabism-the-cancer-within-islam-created-by-british-spy-hempher/
As with everything do your own study. I was told this back in 1991 but did not understand it. I was told by others in 1995 but it did not sink in until I became familiar with the writings of Zbigniew Brzezinski.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Then you've not delved very deeply into it...
Believe me, I am aware of the shady stuff the Brits have done, but this isn't one of them.
Also, always check your sources.
Kana’an Electronic Bulletin is a joint effort of al-Mashriq al-A’mil Center for Cultural and Development Studies (Ramallah – Occupied Palestine) and Palestine Research and Publishing Foundation (USA). It is edited by the collective efforts of Ibrahim Makkawi, Adel Samara, and Masad Arbid. Kana’an Electronic Bulletin welcomes contributions that serve the pan-Arab (qawmi) project that aims at the realization of Arab unity, development, and socialism.
Well those who are experts in Islam would tell you (as they've told me) and from what I've researched is that is NOT "the most correct". Fundamentalist? Yep. That's what the Salafists believe.
Speak with a learned Muslim that's not from Saudi Arabia and even a Saudi If he's NOT in Saudi Arabia and he'll also tell you most vehemently that Wahabbism and Salafism are heretical.
If you study the history of Wahabbism you'll find that it is a British-nurtured and funded sect from Day One in their goal of dividing and conquering.
Just the facts.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
And by the same token Wahhabi's don't consider others to be Muslims. Sunni's kill Shia and Shia kill Sunni and they are both willing to kill anyone else who doesn't subscribe to their specific brand of Islam.
That they don't agree with each other is not evidence of them being legitimate Muslims. Wahhabi is without a doubt an Islamic sect, one of many who all consider themselves the "true Islam."
The History of Wahhabbism
http://fas.org/irp/eprint/iraqi/wahhabi.pdf
And this...
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/09/sleeping-with-the-devil-how-u-s-and-saudi-backing-of-al-qaeda-led-to-911.html
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Actually the history of Wahhabi is easily researched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement#Muhammad_ibn_Abd-al-Wahhab
The founder, Mohammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab started the movement around 1740. He was legitimized by an alliance with the House of Saud in 1744.
The ruler of nearby town, Muhammad ibn Saud, invited ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab to join him, and in 1744 a pact was made between the two. Ibn Saud would protect and propagate the doctrines of the Wahhabi mission, while ibn Abdul Wahhab "would support the ruler, supplying him with `glory and power.`" Whoever championed his message, ibn Abdul Wahhab promised, `will, by means of it, rule and lands and men.
This established the first Saudi state and secured Wahhabi as the primary form of Islam known as the Salafi revivalist movement.
I don't see any evil British Empire people at work yet.
Believe me, I am aware of the shady stuff the Brits have done, but this isn't one of them.
Also, always check your sources.
Oh, cannot a Palestinian state the truth?
Perhaps you've already made up your mind. If so. Fine. There are hundreds of links, books, too, if you care to dog into it. Other sources claim the exact same thing, including one British (European not Arab...) guy's memoirs.
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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
Oh, cannot a Palestinian state the truth?
That's not what I was alluding to. More so the last sentence. "It must be someone else's fault we xxxxx don't get along."
Their agenda is as clear as day.
Perhaps you've already made up your mind. If so. Fine. There are hundreds of links, books, too, if you care to dog into it. Other sources claim the exact same thing, including one British (European not Arab...) guy's memoirs.
The [I]Memoirs of Mr. Hempher is fiction. It was more than likely written by an Ottoman Turk. Islam was the unifier in the Ottoman Empire. Arab nationalism would be very dangerous to such an empire.
The irony here is that today you have Arab nationalists defending a work written to undermine Arab nationalism.
montanadave
09-12-14, 09:39
Back on topic, here's a snippet from an article published the The Atlantic's website yesterday which offers (to me, anyway) an accurate appraisal of the President's national speech on ISIS (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/obamas-speech-on-isis-in-plain-english/380021/):
Qua speech, Barack Obama’s address Wednesday on the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria was surprisingly terrible: a disorganized mess, insincere and unconvincing. To appreciate just how bad and bizarre it was, compare the president’s speech announcing a new air campaign in Iraq and Syria to Dwight Eisenhower’s 1958 statement on his decision to intervene in Lebanon with 14,000—14,000!—troops. The statement contains no chest-thumping about America’s leadership in science and medicine. No pivot to the auto industry and medical research. Eisenhower simply explained what had been done, and why.
There was no such declarative clarity in Obama’s speech last night. Has any past president announced military action with such ambivalence and unease? “Mr. President,” one imagines a reporter shouting, “how sure are you that you’re doing the right thing?” “On a scale of 1 to 10?” Obama replies. “About a 6.”
. . .
In plain English: We don’t really have a plan. We don’t have a definition of success. We see some evildoers and we’re going to whack them. They deserve it, don’t they?
And sure, ISIS does deserve it. The group is a nasty collection of slavers, rapists, thieves, throat-slitters, and all-around psychopaths. The trouble is: so are the people fighting ISIS, the regimes in Tehran and Damascus that will reap the benefits of the war the president just announced. They may be less irrational and unpredictable than ISIS. But if anything, America’s new unspoken allies in the anti-ISIS war actually represent a greater “challenge to international order” and a more significant “threat to America’s core interests” than the vicious characters the United States will soon drop bombs on.
The question before the nation is, “What is the benefit of this war to America and to Americans?”
That was the question the speech left unanswered. And the ominous suspicion left behind is that the question was unanswered because it is unanswerable—at least, not answerable in any terms likely to be acceptable to the people watching the speech and paying the taxes to finance the fight ahead.
We're playing Whack-A-Mole in a part of the world which is brimming with the most ****ed-up, irrational, psychopathic, homicidal, genocidal, suicidal moles on the planet. Having a plan entails being able to envision a solution. I don't see any solution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNsltQXTVU
It is time once again.
http://thecrusadesproject.wikispaces.com/file/view/knights_templar_174125828.jpg/207205254/knights_templar_174125828.jpg
montanadave
09-12-14, 10:32
It is time once again.
http://thecrusadesproject.wikispaces.com/file/view/knights_templar_174125828.jpg/207205254/knights_templar_174125828.jpg
Because the crusades worked so well the first dozen or so times? Be sure to write and let the rest of us know how things are going.
Because the crusades worked so well the first dozen or so times? Be sure to write and let the rest of us know how things are going.
If you done any amount of research, and don't think we're in need of a culling of the herd, then there's nothing I can say to convince you.
They are at war with the "infidels" and many apologists are clueless as to what this means. Wait'll it hits our shores again and come talk to me then.
montanadave
09-12-14, 12:10
If you done any amount of research, and don't think we're in need of a culling of the herd, then there's nothing I can say to convince you.
They are at war with the "infidels" and many apologists are clueless as to what this means. Wait'll it hits our shores again and come talk to me then.
Let's not get off on the wrong foot, here. I've done my research. No need for snark or condescension.
We have a very limited number of radical Islamists and more than a few just plain social nihilists embedded within a Muslim population of over a billion people which is largely moderate but, because of a variety of cultural and religious reasons, is unwilling to move forcefully to eradicate the cancer within. We also have more than a few governments and multinational players who profit immensely from this perpetual war on terror and the fear and paranoia it fosters.
And we haven't even touched upon the religious, social, cultural, and economic reasons which compel young people as divers as Afghani goat-****ers to American honor students to one day toss aside their former lives, strap a bomb to their ass, and head out to parts unknown on some deluded jihad.
Again, I don't see anyone putting forth any reasonable solutions, much less the methodology to arrive at this as yet undefined solution. And, no, I don't think global genocide of Islamic peoples is a viable solution.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-12-14, 16:12
Let's not get off on the wrong foot, here. I've done my research. No need for snark or condescension.
We have a very limited number of radical Islamists and more than a few just plain social nihilists embedded within a Muslim population of over a billion people which is largely moderate but, because of a variety of cultural and religious reasons, is unwilling to move forcefully to eradicate the cancer within.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/09/04/myth-tiny-radical-minority
The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2008/02/27/muslim-survey-challenges-west/
A new Gallup poll is being touted as a “challenge” to western misperceptions of Islam. The survey was done on three continents and took six years to complete, and as the French news agency AFP reports, we’ve all been a little alarmist over here: “About 93 percent of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews.”
Seven percent of 1.3 billion leaves us with . . . 91 million radical Islamists. And to think we were concerned!
Let's not get off on the wrong foot, here. I've done my research. No need for snark or condescension.
We have a very limited number of radical Islamists and more than a few just plain social nihilists embedded within a Muslim population of over a billion people which is largely moderate...
I don't think global genocide of Islamic peoples is a viable solution.
I wasn't trying to be condescending, snarky or start an argument. I should've been less confrontational, agreed, please accept my apology.
After doing quite a bit of research on the topic I don't agree with your assertion that there is a very limited number of "radical Islamists". It doesn't match up from what I've seen with my own eyes.
I am tired of the bullshit propaganda and the protected classes of Muslim/Islam, blacks and any other "minority" who gets away with beating people, murder, quite literally, rape, kidnapping, torture and countless many other crimes due to being from a protected class.
Whiskey_Bravo put some good info out, I'd suggest reading those articles to start. Be well.
Doc Safari
09-12-14, 17:20
The entire problem with the Muslim countries is that there just isn't enough Uranium 235 in the air.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-12-14, 17:32
The entire problem with the Muslim countries is that there just isn't enough Uranium 235 in the air.
The problem with Islamic countries....
28476
montanadave
09-12-14, 19:19
I wasn't trying to be condescending, snarky or start an argument. I should've been less confrontational, agreed, please accept my apology.
No worries and no need to apologize. It's a immensely frustrating situation. Doubly so, I would imagine, for those who have had skin in the game and suffered personal losses related to this ongoing and unending global war on terror.
But, again, I just don't see any viable options being put on the table. And if there are 93 million Muslims in the world sufficiently radicalized to strap a bomb on their ass, shout "allahu akbar," and blow the shit out of as many Westerners as they can, then it's probably game over anyway. "Politically radicalized" in the eyes of a pollster and volunteering as a suicide bomber is a pretty big leap.
To rid the Islamic world of this cancer is necessarily an inside job. It cannot be imposed by outsiders at gunpoint; at least not without disastrous consequences for everyone involved. And I'm certainly not holding my breath for any resolution of all the internecine conflict and dysfunction which afflicts and divides the Muslim community.
Perhaps the only solution is the unimaginable. I sincerely hope not and, if that proves to be the case, I hope I'm not around to witness it. Einstein is credited with stating, "We cannot solve our current problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." The world is desperately need of some new ideas.
montanadave
09-12-14, 19:52
And if anyone required additional evidence as to how ****ed up this whole situation is, the moderate Syrian rebels President Obama recently said the United States would train, arm, and support have signed a truce with ISIS, who (if memory serves) President Obama pledged the United States would "degrade and destroy." (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140912/syria-rebels-non-aggression-pact-near-damascus)
And if anyone required additional evidence as to how ****ed up this whole situation is, the moderate Syrian rebels President Obama recently said the United States would train, arm, and support have signed a truce with ISIS, who (if memory serves) President Obama pledged the United States would "degrade and destroy." (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140912/syria-rebels-non-aggression-pact-near-damascus)
Of course. Almost makes one wish Obama had just minded his business and kept his focus on Iraq instead of trying to make Syria a "nice place" which is the same retarded shit we attempted in Iraq over 10 years ago.
Interesting: Suspect says he murdered New Jersey teen as revenge for U.S. military killings in Middle East (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/suspect-killed-n-teen-vengeance-military-article-1.1911964)
Ali Muhammad Brown is accused of killing a 19-year-old in New Jersey and three men in Washington State. According to court documents, the 29-year-old claimed he wanted to kill the teen as an act of 'vengeance' to retaliate for U.S. military action in the Middle East...
Moose-Knuckle
09-13-14, 10:53
Interesting: Suspect says he murdered New Jersey teen as revenge for U.S. military killings in Middle East (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/suspect-killed-n-teen-vengeance-military-article-1.1911964)
But some guys on the internet told me that Islam is a religon of peace . . .
But some guys on the internet told me that Islam is a religon of peace . . .
I think, as Americans, many people only look inward to our own country. People should take a look at France, Britain, Sweden, etc. and the amount of problems they've experienced and are currently experiencing. The riots in France over the past few years, the unchecked rapes and killings, etc.
I know you know but they're are lots of people who aren't as aware.
Moose-Knuckle
09-13-14, 11:01
I think, as Americans, many people only look inward to our own country. People should take a look at France, Britain, Sweden, etc. and the amount of problems they've experienced and are currently experiencing. The riots in France over the past few years, the unchecked rapes and killings, etc.
I know you know but they're are lots of people who aren't as aware.
Word my brother.
since again the photography world is %98 radical lefty progressives they seriously view Europe as some sort of utopian paradise and think all that stuff is just propaganda by fox news ?
the recent riots they agree with since Israel is such a horrid country for killing all those innocent people ! and when you mention the rocket attacks they say well its the Israelis that are killing everyone not Hamas who want peace !
mention the Islamic problems and they blame whites here and say we are just islamaphobes !!
you can't win sadly half the country is gone dead in the head brain washed and beyond repair sadly
I think, as Americans, many people only look inward to our own country. People should take a look at France, Britain, Sweden, etc. and the amount of problems they've experienced and are currently experiencing. The riots in France over the past few years, the unchecked rapes and killings, etc.
I know you know but they're are lots of people who aren't as aware.
I think, as Americans, many people only look inward to our own country. People should take a look at France, Britain, Sweden, etc. and the amount of problems they've experienced and are currently experiencing. The riots in France over the past few years, the unchecked rapes and killings, etc.
I know you know but they're are lots of people who aren't as aware.
The problem is that this is a very complex issue, not a black/white, either/or issue. Too many people will not acknowledge this either.
The main issue in many European countries, including my own, is a failed integration policy. And a failed immigration policy, but that is a different topic.
Minority immigrants have not been integrated properly, to where we now have city neighborhoods where the majority of people who live there are minority immigrants.
In Oslo, you have elementary schools where you can find classes with only one ethnic Norwegian child. 30 years ago, when I started elementary school there were no minority immigrant children. The first minority immigrant in my class started when we were in 4th grade.
The main problems we have with minority immigrants is crime and welfare abuse. Crime is mostly gang related (pakistani, vietnamese, turkish) and drug related (somali, balkan immigrants), with some random violent crimes interspersed (mostly refugees from violent upbringings). None of these issues can be attributed to Islam, even though many are muslim. There are many other factors at play, as to why they do what they do. For example, most pakistani immigrants in Norway are from rural areas, which in Pakistan are more conservative and traditionalist than many of the more urban centers. This has caused some issues with honor killings, arranged marriages etc.
Most of the immigrants responsible for rapes and random murders are people who quite frankly should have never been allowed to set foot on norwegian soil, seeing as they had so much "luggage" from their upbringing and general background. It would not take a genius to see that these people would have issues adapting to society.
The most troubling issue, that has become more and more prevalent over the last 15 years, approximately, are the levels of appeasement our previous liberal government went to, in order to help integrate minority immigrants. Instead of enforcing language requirements, work requirements and so forth, we have had to make adjustments at several levels in order to "not offend" or in order to "not exclude". Examples of these are allowing religious head wear while in uniform (military), cancelling of Christmas activities in kindergarten and elementary school levels, minority quotas for certain studies and professions etc.
Last time I checked we were not supposed to sacrifice our values in order to integrate minorities into our society.
Arctic1: good post. You hit on the real problem with liberalized immigration policies. When my ancestors came to the US from Germany, they came here because they wanted to be Americans. Speaking German was verboten as they worked hard to assimilate in their new country.
Many of the immigrants that you describe in Norway, and we see here in the US, have no desire to assimilate to their new country and adopt the customs of their new home. To them, it is as if they simply moved across the street.
Last time I checked we were not supposed to sacrifice our values in order to integrate minorities into our society.
And that is how it was supposed to work here too. Guess what? You guys are also screwed.
And that is how it was supposed to work here too. Guess what? You guys are also screwed.
I many ways we have an immigration problem, yes. It costs society a lot of money, with a single minority immigrant costing $685,000 during their lifetime.
We have great cultural issues in the school system and at the workplace, because of different opinions/understandings of what "acceptable behaviour" is. Several ethnic norwegian families are removing their children from schools where classes are mostly made up of minority immigrants. I just read an article this morning that the school that my son is supposed to go, when he starts school in a few years, has a 60% majority of non-ethnic norwegian students.
A proper debate is very difficult, as the racism card is used before you can blink; primarily by two crowds:
-Minority immigrants themselves
-Idealists who are so concerned with unprejudiced that they have lost all critical sense
I don't like they way things have developed over past 15-10 years, but fortunately we have a new government who I hope will take steps to correct the issue.
An interesting article, that shows the issue:
http://m.thelocal.no/20140828/mohammed-is-most-popular-name-in-oslo
The thing is though, while I am vehemently opposed to appeasement of minorities by way of changing our way of living as opposed to actually setting requirements for them and enforcing these requirements, I don't see muslims as a group threatening our society. At the same time, muslim extremist violence is the largest threat to Norway, and western society in general.
Arctic1: good post. You hit on the real problem with liberalized immigration policies. When my ancestors came to the US from Germany, they came here because they wanted to be Americans. Speaking German was verboten as they worked hard to assimilate in their new country.
Many of the immigrants that you describe in Norway, and we see here in the US, have no desire to assimilate to their new country and adopt the customs of their new home. To them, it is as if they simply moved across the street.
Yup, instead of having immigrants properly integrated and assimilated, we now have small homogenous minority communites where their ethnic/religious identity is more important than being a Norwegian.
There have been several incidents recently in a neighborhood in Oslo with a large/majority population of minority immigrants, with homosexual couples who have publicly displayed affection (basically holding hands) being brutally assaulted and beaten.
Now, I know that many here disagree with homosexuality; personally, I couldn't care less whether or not someone likes boys or girls, it's something I can't be bothered to really put a lot of effort into debating or caring about.
One newspaper went to this neighborhood to do a follow up of these incidents, and interviewed some minorities. A couple of them actually said that norwegians should respect that this was THEIR community, and to not do gay stuff while there. If they did, they should expect this to happen.
The_War_Wagon
09-15-14, 06:56
Why of course the Islamic State is not Islamic, just like he isn't . . .
He should know! :rolleyes:
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/notamuslim01.jpg
I many ways we have an immigration problem, yes. It costs society a lot of money, with a single minority immigrant costing $685,000 during their lifetime.
We have great cultural issues in the school system and at the workplace, because of different opinions/understandings of what "acceptable behaviour" is. Several ethnic norwegian families are removing their children from schools where classes are mostly made up of minority immigrants. I just read an article this morning that the school that my son is supposed to go, when he starts school in a few years, has a 60% majority of non-ethnic norwegian students.
A proper debate is very difficult, as the racism card is used before you can blink; primarily by two crowds:
-Minority immigrants themselves
-Idealists who are so concerned with unprejudiced that they have lost all critical sense
I don't like they way things have developed over past 15-10 years, but fortunately we have a new government who I hope will take steps to correct the issue.
An interesting article, that shows the issue:
http://m.thelocal.no/20140828/mohammed-is-most-popular-name-in-oslo
The thing is though, while I am vehemently opposed to appeasement of minorities by way of changing our way of living as opposed to actually setting requirements for them and enforcing these requirements, I don't see muslims as a group threatening our society. At the same time, muslim extremist violence is the largest threat to Norway, and western society in general.
Give it time.
http://youtu.be/C2GSHG7IO-8
http://youtu.be/C2GSHG7IO-8
That was ****ing depressing. Not only was it explained who these people are, there were those two stupid bitches that suggested the one reporter was actually a Mossad agent. At least a couple guys told him to **** off and die.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-15-14, 22:49
The one person even signed it after he said "with only slightly more beheadings".
People....
Give it time.
How do you quantify your assessment?
When can one definitively and objectively state that muslims are a threat to society?
How will this threat-phase manifest?
As I stated above, there are major challenges with regards to immigration, integration/assimilation and "affirmative action" towards minorities at the cost of sacrificing our own values and tradition.
If that is your idea of threat, then I agree that we are there.
Extremist islamist terrorism; check, a definitive threat.
If you are thinking of the muslim population unifying around a common goal of implementing sharia law and muslim rule, and would be willing to fight the norwegian goverment in order to reach that goal I would say that is pretty damn unlikely.
How do you quantify your assessment?
When can one definitively and objectively state that muslims are a threat to society?
How will this threat-phase manifest?
How long did it take for a group of disgruntled civil war vets to become the KKK?
How long did it take for black racists (many of the Muslim) to use the cover of the "civil rights" movement to organize their violent hate groups which took hostages and changed the very nature of our University system and how history and many other subjects are taught?
How long did it take a bunch of uneducated rednecks to form the "new Klan" of the 70s and then the "skinhead" movement of the 80s?
Keep in mind religion played a minor role in their unification, it was mostly just hate and resentment. Factor in a religion that demands complete submission, one that followers are literally willing to die and kill for....and well the next thing you know people are being killed for offensive cartoons and sidewalk cafes regularly explode.
There is no exact time frame nor is there an exact formula, but there is a noticeable pattern.
How long did it take for a group of disgruntled civil war vets to become the KKK?
How long did it take for black racists (many of the Muslim) to use the cover of the "civil rights" movement to organize their violent hate groups which took hostages and changed the very nature of our University system and how history and many other subjects are taught?
How long did it take a bunch of uneducated rednecks to form the "new Klan" of the 70s and then the "skinhead" movement of the 80s?
Keep in mind religion played a minor role in their unification, it was mostly just hate and resentment. Factor in a religion that demands complete submission, one that followers are literally willing to die and kill for....and well the next thing you know people are being killed for offensive cartoons and sidewalk cafes regularly explode.
There is no exact time frame nor is there an exact formula, but there is a noticeable pattern.
So you are just making statements without any real data to back it up.
I did not ask because I thought you knew the answer, I asked because you make a normative statement that does not match reality. And in your above post you reference terrorism and extremist movements, both of which I agree are threats to society. At this moment in time, the terrorist/extremist threat is greater from muslim extremists than left wing and right wing extremists.
People often claim that muslims (or their ancestor) have been acting this way for 2000 years, so it should be nothing new that they will resort to violence. Well, if this is the ultimate goal of the world's muslims, to dominate the world through force, isn't it about time that the majority got on board? Yes, there is a pretty big estimate on how many radicalized muslims there are. But, as someone else pointed out, there is a difference between being politically extremely conservative and strapping on a suicide bomb vest or crashing planes into buildings. Some people cannot see the forest for the trees.
A norwegian is at the top of the list for racial, religious or political crimes comitted by a single individual. In the world. Anders Behring Brevik killed 77 people and injured 319. This places him at number 82 on the list of terrorist attacks based on death tolls.
He was a Christian, right wing anti-islamist. He wanted to change our government's policies regarding immigration, and he feared "Creeping Sharia". He killed his own countrymen, most of them children, because he hated Islam.
There is no doubt however, that extremist Islamists are the worst perpetrators when it comes to terrorism. Anyone who claims otherwise is delusional.
Man has always been violent; if you look at it rationally, motivation really does not matter at the end of the day. If someone is trying to kill me, I am not going to be more or less pissed off based on their ideological motivation. Looking at it from a preventative perspective, motivation is very important. If you want to prevent radicalization, you need to look at the factors driving people to these extremes and combat them. If your solution is based off of an assumption that Islam is bad, and that the only solution is to turn the ME into glass, you really do not understand the complexity of the problem. (Your and you being general terms, not aimed at anyone).
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-14, 08:59
If you are thinking of the muslim population unifying around a common goal of implementing sharia law and muslim rule, and would be willing to fight the norwegian goverment in order to reach that goal I would say that is pretty damn unlikely.
They are already probably living in the same neighborhoods correct? If they haven't already, they will begin to implement sharia law under the radar just like they are doing in the UK. Intimidation and threats are what they use to enforce sharia in those neighborhoods. Disagree or bring attention to it and islamophobic and or the racism card will be played.
No need to fight the government in any type of open fight. See examples in London, France, and Dearborn, Michigan.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-14, 09:11
Looking at it from a preventative perspective, motivation is very important. If you want to prevent radicalization, you need to look at the factors driving people to these extremes and combat them. If your solution is based off of an assumption that Islam is bad, and that the only solution is to turn the ME into glass, you really do not understand the complexity of the problem. (Your and you being general terms, not aimed at anyone).
What preventative measure do you suggest? Many of the most radicalized, violent, blood thirsty islamic jihadist have been born or raised in western countries to middle class people, educated in western universities, and have the freedom to practice what ever religion they want. Take the most recent dick cutting peoples heads off(from London), or the large number of people leaving western Europe and the US to fight for ISIS. What preventative measures are there when they have been given the chance at freedom in a western country, financial opportunity, and religious freedom.
They are already probably living in the same neighborhoods correct? If they haven't already, they will begin to implement sharia law under the radar just like they are doing in the UK. Intimidation and threats are what they use to enforce sharia in those neighborhoods. Disagree or bring attention to it and islamophobic and or the racism card will be played.
No need to fight the government in any type of open fight. See examples in London, France, and Dearborn, Michigan.
I don't see how small groups of muslims that practice Sharia will affect my life or my security situation. If they regulate their own through Sharia, while it is not something I want happening here, it poses no threat to our society.
If they go outside the laws of the country they are in, then the government will take legal action.
Sharia is a lot more than medieval forms of punishment for crimes.
Many aspects of Sharia are similar to conservative Christian views.
Remember, the goal of the extremist Islamists is to have full power over all the people, not just muslims.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-16-14, 10:00
I don't see how small groups of muslims that practice Sharia will affect my life or my security situation. If they regulate their own through Sharia, while it is not something I want happening here, it poses no threat to our society.
If they go outside the laws of the country they are in, then the government will take legal action.
Sharia is a lot more than medieval forms of punishment for crimes.
Many aspects of Sharia are similar to conservative Christian views.
Remember, the goal of the extremist Islamists is to have full power over all the people, not just muslims.
OK, if you are cool with sections of your country no longer abiding by your laws that's cool. If you are ok with neighborhoods becoming no-go zones for non muslims, I am ok with that as well. Your government will take very little action, just like the governments in the US, UK, and France take almost no action when it comes to the areas and neighborhoods that sharia is being defacto enforced. Do some Google research on practically no go areas in the UK, France, and hell even some sections of the US.
The difference between sharia and conservative Christian views are many, but I would think the largest being the conservative law being forced on you and the punishment scale?
And yes I know what the extremist goal is, and the easiest way to do that is to take small footholds first and expand from there. What is the most popular boys name in London?
What preventative measure do you suggest? Many of the most radicalized, violent, blood thirsty islamic jihadist have been born or raised in western countries to middle class people, educated in western universities, and have the freedom to practice what ever religion they want. Take the most recent dick cutting peoples heads off(from London), or the large number of people leaving western Europe and the US to fight for ISIS. What preventative measures are there when they have been given the chance at freedom in a western country, financial opportunity, and religious freedom.
It is a pretty common understanding regarding extremism and radicalization, that it is very hard to stop the true ideologists from emerging. Some people will interpret things in their own way, and develop their specific flavor of extremism.
There is also often a disconnect between social background and ideology of these main players. As you say, many comes from well off families, have higher educations and are generally intelligent people.
Where an effort can be made, is towards the main category of people who is radicalized by these ideologists. This is by no means an easy task, as requires a consolidated effort across several layers of society;
-Family
-Friends
-School officials, teachers and classmates
-Leaders and friends at pastime activities
-Health care institutions
and so forth
They need to educate themselves on indicators for radicalization process. When several indicators are seen/experienced over time, appropriate people should be notified. These indicators can be, but not limited to:
-Increased societal withdrawal
-New friends
-Sudden changes in behavior
-Change of dress/grooming
-Sudden change in political views/more pronounced political activity -> negativity towards one's country
This is not Islam-specific, but is relevant across all types of extremist movements.
Radicalization is not an either/or state, it is a process that can be compared to being in a tunnel. A person that is in a radicalization process is usually somewhere in the dark, and can be moving back and forth between the entrance (non-radical) and exit (radical).
It is during this period that outside influence by the right people can increase the chance of the individual coming back out of the tunnel through the entrance, with the radicalization process stopped.
Many of the ones who are "targets" for radicalization by the ideologists are usually young men who have not yet found their place in society, who often feel that they do not fit in. This can often result in them acting out, misbehaving, as they lack structure in their life. By being approached by perhaps a charismatic leader, who is confident and offers them a place in a group that offers structure, and maybe has values and ideals that appeal to parts of them, they are often easily swayed.
Again, this is a very complex process and issue, and requires a great deal of effort.
Our intelligence communities does a very good job with keeping track of these elements in Norway, and relatively often have "conversations" with people who are in the process of being radicalized.
OK, if you are cool with sections of your country no longer abiding by your laws that's cool. If you are ok with neighborhoods becoming no-go zones for non muslims, I am ok with that as well. Your government will take very little action, just like the governments in the US, UK, and France take almost no action when it comes to the areas and neighborhoods that sharia is being defacto enforced. Do some Google research on practically no go areas in the UK, France, and hell even some sections of the US.
The difference between sharia and conservative Christian views are many, but I would think the largest being the conservative law being forced on you and the punishment scale?
And yes I know what the extremist goal is, and the easiest way to do that is to take small footholds first and expand from there. What is the most popular boys name in London?
Exactly where in my post did I say I was "cool with it"?
I think I specifically said I did not want it in my country. But you seem to have missed my point though. Can the implementation of Sharia in muslim communites be viewed as subversion? Sure. Does it increase the divide between these communities and the rest of society? Yes. That is still does not make the practice of under the radar sharia a threat to the society at large or to non-muslims on a large scale.
I cannot speak for other governments, but we prosecute, jail and/or deport immigrants are are guilty of crimes that are born from religion and/or tradition.
I do not know what the most popular name in London is, but if I google it it is probaly Mohammed -> and it was. It is the same in Oslo.
That is most assuredly indicative of a failed immigration and integration policy. Is it de facto evidence of a consolidated effort by muslims all over the world to slowly conquer it? I think not, Occam's Razor and all....
So you are just making statements without any real data to back it up.
Correct, I did not go research the numbers for you. But I am aware of the events and their outcome and if truly interested you could easily look into it. Some people can see the threat right in front of them, know all about the threat, but at the same time don't want to be prejudiced so they see the threat as something less.
ignorance and burying your head won't stop it from taking over inch by inch and you must have NO clue about history !!!! sad how many folks today know nothing about history or seem to ignore it
and look at many countries with mostly muslim population its like well over %80 believe in Sharia control and law and that is there goal
and the gov won't take legal action in Europe for much longer and even today many are shoved aside !!! they will be in the system and stop it from happening like is happening now in our country with immigration as a example
this we can all get along BS is just that pull your head out they want to kill you !
those that do not are OK with the bad guys killing you ! and they won't lift a finger to help you because they believe its there destiny so are OK with people strapping on bombs etc... most folks are NOT OK but pretty much ALL muslims are OK with it !!! big difference
something like %98 of all muslims believe they will control the earth and all mankind will live UNDER them
sorry Sharia is nothing like conservative Christian views !!!!! what a IGNORANT view point
sorry Christians do not believe if you leave the religion you should be killed !!!! they do not believe you should be stoned to death for being gay or committing adultery !
they do not believe in slavery or treating women as 3rd class citizens and not letting them do anything etc..... the list goes on and on !!!
I don't see how small groups of muslims that practice Sharia will affect my life or my security situation. If they regulate their own through Sharia, while it is not something I want happening here, it poses no threat to our society.
If they go outside the laws of the country they are in, then the government will take legal action.
Sharia is a lot more than medieval forms of punishment for crimes.
Many aspects of Sharia are similar to conservative Christian views.
Remember, the goal of the extremist Islamists is to have full power over all the people, not just muslims.
Can the implementation of Sharia in muslim communites be viewed as subversion? Sure. Does it increase the divide between these communities and the rest of society? Yes. That is still does not make the practice of under the radar sharia a threat to the society at large or to non-muslims on a large scale.
And this is where I think you are simply being naive. You seem to believe this is as far as it will go. IF sufficient numbers exist or are permitted to exist you will end up with the same problems that France and other countries experienced.
It will never become as bad as say....Yemen simply because there isn't enough cultural support. But France got pretty bad before they slammed on the brakes and said "enough is enough" and they still have a problem to this day, even if they have clamped down on it quite a bit.
If you think it can't really happen in Norway, I bet nobody thought it could happen in the Netherlands but we all remember Theo Van Gogh. His last words were "Mercy, mercy! We can talk about it, can't we?" before he was shot several more times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29#Murder
Then there was Kurt Westerguard of Demark who was the subject of multiple assassination attempts over a cartoon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Westergaard
Then there was Lars Vilks of Sweden who also drew offensive cartoons who was the subject of many plots to assassinate him and a bombing in Stockholm resulted.
When you have people willing to kill over cartoons, movies and books, it doesn't take too many to pose a threat to the populace in general. It took TWO people to cause the Boston marathon bombing in our country. In order to prove we treated everyone equally we made Nidal Hasan a Major in the US Army and charged him with the psychological care of our servicemen despite many indicators that he was a potential security threat. In addition to those shot directly in an act of "workplace violence" who knows how many people suffering from things like PTSD that he harmed mentally.
Moose-Knuckle
09-16-14, 17:16
Anyone following this thread should perform a search engine check on "Muslim immigrant gang rape" in Europe, specifically the UK and Sweden.
It's really a very simple issue when you boil it down. In EVERY society on the planet, some of the things these filthy savages do are taboo. The probelm arises when they proclaim some righteousness via religion or culture, and people not involved in the depraved behaviors either give them a pass completely, or refuse to openly denounce them and fight against it.
I couldn't possibly give a damn less what religion or culture they identify with, the appeasers and deniers are the real problem. The savages can only operate with impugnity via the cover provided by these sniveling cowards. The solution to this problem is for people everywhere across the globe to put their foot down and say "ENOUGH!". Either suit up and join the fight, or shut your ****ing piehole and get out of the way while we take care of business. If someone wants to complain about righteous people taking up arms against savagery, they'd better be willing to say it while standing between us and them. All the nattering naybobs of negativity that hide behind their keyboards need to be collectively ignored. After all, they're too much of a pansy to do anything but whine and complain, so why should anyone care what they have to say?
We keep hearing that Islam is a religion of peace. Yet they kill more of each other than all the Christians, Jews, Bhuddists and Aethists they kill combined. If the religion of Islam wants to allow the killing of fellow Muslims, fine. Just don't do it on our soil and don't allow your petty little fratricide to spill over to our citizens. When that happens, all the protestations of the "non-violent" Muslims should fall on deaf ears. Either go kill these savages yourselves or keep quiet while we take care of the business you neglected.
Who was that directed at?
Who was that directed at?
If you're talking about my post? Everyone...
@SteyrAUG:
Just curious, but since you are so quick to dismiss the views of others and attributing it to naivety, what in your background and experience qualifies you to comment on extremism, terrorism and radicalization? Formal training that qualifies your comments as more than mere conjecture?
For the sake of disclosure, I have had a job where duties involved:
TESSOC threat assesments
This meant keeping updated on the current situation and threats against the Norwegian Defense Forces as well as domestic and foreign threats to Norway.
To do this I worked closely with the Defense Security Agency, Police Security Services and Military Intelligence, including weekly threat updates.
Information provided was classified, and thus involved more detail than what is publicly released.
Briefings and updates:
I regularly held briefings regarding security issues and threats to commanders and troops, and would also advise the unit commander on these issues
In order to serve in this capacity, I went through formal training. During this training we went through background material for all of the above threats, and why and how they are rated as they are. The instructors were from the same communities as listed above. We also covered radicalization in great detail, as this related to my specific job. We received briefings from the relevant entities, most of it classified. They covered current activities by the intelligence communities both abroad and at home., current threats and so forth.
I have also, as mentioned previously, been deployed to muslim countries for a total of 19 months. For 7 of those months one of my main responsibilites was to gather intel on a village in our AO; I did this through interaction with locals, as well as covert activities in order to map out information specified in the CCIR.
Thus, I feel that I am pretty qualified to comment on these issues, and make rational assessments rather than emotional ones. I understand the complexity involved with terrorism, extremism and radicalization, and how these issues are affected by both local politics, national politics and geopolitics. I understand how many extremist groups think, how they work, and their motivations.
You can think that I am naive, that I refuse to see the threat because I don't want to appear predjudiced, that I am a naysayer or any other characterization you like. If you do, you would be wrong.
@SteyrAUG:
Just curious, but since you are so quick to dismiss the views of others and attributing it to naivety, what in your background and experience qualifies you to comment on extremism, terrorism and radicalization? Formal training that qualifies your comments as more than mere conjecture?
For the sake of disclosure, I have had a job where duties involved:
TESSOC threat assesments
This meant keeping updated on the current situation and threats against the Norwegian Defense Forces as well as domestic and foreign threats to Norway.
To do this I worked closely with the Defense Security Agency, Police Security Services and Military Intelligence, including weekly threat updates.
Information provided was classified, and thus involved more detail than what is publicly released.
Briefings and updates:
I regularly held briefings regarding security issues and threats to commanders and troops, and would also advise the unit commander on these issues
In order to serve in this capacity, I went through formal training. During this training we went through background material for all of the above threats, and why and how they are rated as they are. The instructors were from the same communities as listed above. We also covered radicalization in great detail, as this related to my specific job. We received briefings from the relevant entities, most of it classified. They covered current activities by the intelligence communities both abroad and at home., current threats and so forth.
I have also, as mentioned previously, been deployed to muslim countries for a total of 19 months. For 7 of those months one of my main responsibilites was to gather intel on a village in our AO; I did this through interaction with locals, as well as covert activities in order to map out information specified in the CCIR.
Thus, I feel that I am pretty qualified to comment on these issues, and make rational assessments rather than emotional ones. I understand the complexity involved with terrorism, extremism and radicalization, and how these issues are affected by both local politics, national politics and geopolitics. I understand how many extremist groups think, how they work, and their motivations.
You can think that I am naive, that I refuse to see the threat because I don't want to appear predjudiced, that I am a naysayer or any other characterization you like. If you do, you would be wrong.
I think the fact that I haven't had all that training and the associated indoctrination is what keeps me from being naive. My background and experience in this matter is watching what has actually happened to places over the decades.
I think the fact that I haven't had all that training and the associated indoctrination is what keeps me from being naive. My background and experience in this matter is watching what has actually happened to places over the decades.
Associated indoctrination? :rolleyes:
I just am dumbfounded as to how you can interpret my view on this matter like you do, unless you deliberately ignore what I actually write and agree with you on, and just find the small paragraphs where you can disagree.
Well, since it seems I am doing a poor job of being clear and concise, here is the run-down:
-Muslim extremists a threat to western society? YES!
-Would I like to wipe ISIS/ISIL/IS/Nom de jour, AQ, al-Shabaab and their ilk off the face of the earth? YES!
-Consolidated effort by the world's muslims to infiltrate western society in order to covertly assume control? NO!
-Does my country, and others, have an immigration policy and integration effort problem with non-western immigrants? YES!
-Would I like to restrict immigration by non-westerners? YES!
-Would I like to implement a trial period for non-western immigrants? YES!
-Would I like to implement stricter requirements for being granted resident status (language requirements, educational requirements, work force expectations)? YES!
-Would I like to jail and/or deport immigrants who commit crimes during this trial period, and fail to comply with the above requirements? YES!
-Would I like our government to stop using appeasement and affirmative action as an integration strategy, at the cost of our traditions and values? YES! (thankfully we have a new government since last year who are not pushovers)
-Would I like all non-western immigrants to actively try to conform to our values and way of life, rather than bring theirs with them? YES! (this includes the likes of Sharia)
I personally don't get too emotionally wrapped up in what specific ideology extremists subscribe to, at the end of the day. I don't go around worrying that random muslims I pass will suddenly stone me to death or blow himself up. It does not work that way. These things are not random acts.
Associated indoctrination? :rolleyes:
I just am dumbfounded as to how you can interpret my view on this matter like you do, unless you deliberately ignore what I actually write and agree with you on, and just find the small paragraphs where you can disagree.
I have found your error and I can help you.
We DO agree on the vast majority of points you raised. You seem to have a definite grasp on the problems that exist and the potential threats they pose.
We DISAGREE on your final conclusion, which includes views such as this:
That is still does not make the practice of under the radar sharia a threat to the society at large or to non-muslims on a large scale.
I "personally" find such conclusions naive. This means even though you and I are largely looking at the same information, I have arrived at a different conclusion than you have. It's not that I'm ignoring the things you say, it's not that I don't understand we agree on many of the "risk factors", it's a matter of me believing they are a greater "eventual threat" than you believe they will be.
And it is solely your conclusions, and not the bulk of your points, that I disagree with.
I hope that helps and please understand I've very much simplified things to avoid confusion, not because I'm trying to talk down to you. Things can sometimes get lost in transmission on the internet so I'm just trying to be really, really clear.
Associated indoctrination? :rolleyes:
I just am dumbfounded as to how you can interpret my view on this matter like you do, unless you deliberately ignore what I actually write and agree with you on, and just find the small paragraphs where you can disagree.
I have found your error and I can help you.
We DO agree on the vast majority of points you raised. You seem to have a definite grasp on the problems that exist and the potential threats they pose.
We DISAGREE on your final conclusion, which includes views such as this:
That is still does not make the practice of under the radar sharia a threat to the society at large or to non-muslims on a large scale.
I "personally" find such conclusions naive. This means even though you and I are largely looking at the same information, I have arrived at a different conclusion than you have. It's not that I'm ignoring the things you say, it's not that I don't understand we agree on many of the "risk factors", it's a matter of me believing they are a greater "eventual threat" than you believe they will be.
And it is solely your conclusions, and not the bulk of your points, that I disagree with.
I hope that helps and please understand I've very much simplified things to avoid confusion, not because I'm trying to talk down to you. Things can sometimes get lost in transmission on the internet so I'm just trying to be really, really clear.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-18-14, 20:02
I don't see how small groups of muslims that practice Sharia will affect my life or my security situation. If they regulate their own through Sharia, while it is not something I want happening here, it poses no threat to our society.
This is the other thing I think people are having a hard time with. You said you have no problem with Sharia in your country as long they keep it to their neighborhoods(we were talking about Sharia being implemented in neighborhoods in some western countries), and that it poses no threat and doesn't bother you because it doesn't effect your life.
I believe it poses a threat, and part of that threat is their desire to spread. If they left their home country looking for a change they would not bring Sharia law with them. There is no room for Sharia in the US, or anywhere else in the west for that matter, even in select neighborhoods. Even if you don't care, children that have no choice are being born into sharia law even though they are citizens of what should be a free country.
Moose-Knuckle
09-18-14, 20:24
This is the other thing I think people are having a hard time with. You said you have no problem with Sharia in your country as long they keep it to their neighborhoods(we were talking about Sharia being implemented in neighborhoods in some western countries), and that it poses no threat and doesn't bother you because it doesn't effect your life.
I believe it poses a threat, and part of that threat is their desire to spread. If they left their home country looking for a change they would not bring Sharia law with them. There is no room for Sharia in the US, or anywhere else in the west for that matter, even in select neighborhoods. Even if you don't care, children that have no choice are being born into sharia law even though they are citizens of what should be a free country.
Why move from a third world s**t hole just to make the new place founded by evil white devils into exact same s**t hole inwhich you fled from? It boils down to they want what we have and they are willing to take it and we are allowing them too, well at least our governing bodies.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-18-14, 20:35
Why move from a third world s**t hole just to make the new place founded by evil white devils into exact same s**t hole inwhich you fled from? It boils down to they want what we have and they are willing to take it and we are allowing them too, well at least our governing bodies.
I agree 100%. And I also know that they are not content in just have a couple of blocks of a neighborhood "theirs". Their goal is to expand and dominate one way or the other.
This is the other thing I think people are having a hard time with. You said you have no problem with Sharia in your country as long they keep it to their neighborhoods(we were talking about Sharia being implemented in neighborhoods in some western countries), and that it poses no threat and doesn't bother you because it doesn't effect your life.
I believe it poses a threat, and part of that threat is their desire to spread. If they left their home country looking for a change they would not bring Sharia law with them. There is no room for Sharia in the US, or anywhere else in the west for that matter, even in select neighborhoods. Even if you don't care, children that have no choice are being born into sharia law even though they are citizens of what should be a free country.
Therein lies the rub that Arctic isn't yet seeing. Movements such as this never reach equilibrium. There is no homeostasis where homo sapiens are involved. If you get caught in YOUR country but in THEIR neighborhood doing something against Sharia Law, they're not at all unlikely to administer some street justice in accordance with their belief system. Even if not, eventually their children or their children's children will expand their sphere of influence. Did the pilgrims stay on Plymouth Rock? Did Germany stay within their borders? Napoleon? Any of the VERY long line of Middle East rulers dating back to Antiquity?
Saying it can't or will not effect you is what I'd call exceedingly naive. :(
MountainRaven
09-18-14, 21:13
Why move from a third world s**t hole just to make the new place founded by evil white devils into exact same s**t hole inwhich you fled from? It boils down to they want what we have and they are willing to take it and we are allowing them too, well at least our governing bodies.
Why do liberals leave blue states and promptly try to bring about change in their new homes that led to the very reason they left the blue states in the first place?
I don't think Arctic is saying that he thinks that Sharia law should override the laws of Norway, the UK, or the US or anywhere else. I think he's saying that he doesn't mind if a community (meaning a group of like-minded people, not necessarily a neighborhood) chooses to live under Sharia law - with the understanding that they are still subject to national, state, and local laws. Just as American Catholics, Amish, Scientologists, Mormons, Free Masons, &c. are subject to the rules and laws of their faiths and organizations, but are not exempt from American laws.
Meaning... Arctic doesn't approve of Muslim Norwegians assaulting and battering people who violate Sharia law any more than I approve of Catholics burning Protestants for heresy.
Moose-Knuckle
09-18-14, 21:37
Meaning... Arctic doesn't approve of Muslim Norwegians assaulting and battering people who violate Sharia law any more than I approve of Catholics burning Protestants for heresy.
Well immigrant Muslim gang rapes, assaults, etc. do happen currently however it's been about six centruries since the Catholic Church has immolated anyone.
I don't think Arctic is saying that he thinks that Sharia law should override the laws of Norway, the UK, or the US or anywhere else. I think he's saying that he doesn't mind if a community (meaning a group of like-minded people, not necessarily a neighborhood) chooses to live under Sharia law - with the understanding that they are still subject to national, state, and local laws. Just as American Catholics, Amish, Scientologists, Mormons, Free Masons, &c. are subject to the rules and laws of their faiths and organizations, but are not exempt from American laws.
Meaning... Arctic doesn't approve of Muslim Norwegians assaulting and battering people who violate Sharia law any more than I approve of Catholics burning Protestants for heresy.
This is so weak the term "grasping at straws" would even fail to describe. No Catholics anywhere in the world are burning Protestants at the stake, today or at any time in the past century at the very least. No hands being chopped off for stealing bread, no women stoned to death for adultery.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions I suppose but some are rightfully far, far less credible than others and this is a blatant example as to why.
MountainRaven
09-18-14, 22:09
Well immigrant Muslim gang rapes, assaults, etc. do happen currently however it's been about six centruries since the Catholic Church has immolated anyone.
This is so weak the term "grasping at straws" would even fail to describe. No Catholics anywhere in the world are burning Protestants at the stake, today or at any time in the past century at the very least. No hands being chopped off for stealing bread, no women stoned to death for adultery.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions I suppose but some are rightfully far, far less credible than others and this is a blatant example as to why.
OK, since we're going to be pedantic, let me put it another way: He's as much for Muslims in Western countries attacking people who have violated Sharia law as I am for the murder of people accused of witchcraft. Which does still happen.
This is the other thing I think people are having a hard time with. You said you have no problem with Sharia in your country as long they keep it to their neighborhoods(we were talking about Sharia being implemented in neighborhoods in some western countries), and that it poses no threat and doesn't bother you because it doesn't effect your life.
I believe it poses a threat, and part of that threat is their desire to spread. If they left their home country looking for a change they would not bring Sharia law with them. There is no room for Sharia in the US, or anywhere else in the west for that matter, even in select neighborhoods. Even if you don't care, children that have no choice are being born into sharia law even though they are citizens of what should be a free country.
No, I did not say that. I said I specifically did not want it here. You claiming something else is a strawman.
I have no doubt in my mind that there are muslims who want sharia across the board. But this is the minority, at least here in Norway.
I agree that under the radar enforcement of sharia undermines our society's values, traditions and laws.
However, I do no see it as very likely that some sharia advocates will start stoning ethnic Norwegians.
I'll gladly eat crow if I end up being wrong, but at this point in time Sharia advocates is a non-issue. At least here.
There many more pressing concerns with non-western immigration to my country.
This is so weak the term "grasping at straws" would even fail to describe. No Catholics anywhere in the world are burning Protestants at the stake, today or at any time in the past century at the very least. No hands being chopped off for stealing bread, no women stoned to death for adultery.
Everyone is welcome to their opinions I suppose but some are rightfully far, far less credible than others and this is a blatant example as to why.
Are you saying that I lack credibility on this topic?
OK, since we're going to be pedantic, let me put it another way: He's as much for Muslims in Western countries attacking people who have violated Sharia law as I am for the murder of people accused of witchcraft. Which does still happen.
And ironically enough the people who are "mostly" having witch trials are...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/salem-comes-to-saudi-arabia/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/29/indonesia-workers-in-saudi-arabia-are-on-trial-for-witchcraft-some-facing-the-death-penalty.html
http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/11/24/saudi-arabia-witchcraft-and-sorcery-cases-rise
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Saudi_Arabia
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Yemen
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Palestinian_Authority_Area
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Kuwait
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_India
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Belgium
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Algeria
And what these events, and many more, all have in common isn't that it's just a "few bad apples" or a small minority of "radicals" who don't practice "true Islam." The reality is that in our "modern world" there is ONE major religion which is still conducting witch trials and putting people to death for being witches. In Saudi Arabia, and many other countries, Sharia is the law of the land and they enforce witch laws with the same dedication that we enforce laws regarding sexual assault.
Moose-Knuckle
09-19-14, 03:22
And ironically enough the people who are "mostly" having witch trials are...
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/salem-comes-to-saudi-arabia/
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/29/indonesia-workers-in-saudi-arabia-are-on-trial-for-witchcraft-some-facing-the-death-penalty.html
http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/11/24/saudi-arabia-witchcraft-and-sorcery-cases-rise
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Saudi_Arabia
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Yemen
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Palestinian_Authority_Area
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Kuwait
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_India
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Belgium
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Witch_Hunts_-_Algeria
And what these events, and many more, all have in common isn't that it's just a "few bad apples" or a small minority of "radicals" who don't practice "true Islam." The reality is that in our "modern world" there is ONE major religion which is still conducting witch trials and putting people to death for being witches. In Saudi Arabia, and many other countries, Sharia is the law of the land and they enforce witch laws with the same dedication that we enforce laws regarding sexual assault.
I was about to respond to the witch trial thing with a similar response but see that you have addressed the matter.
And I don't see anyone here supporting these activities or practices at all....
Secularized Westerners simply can not comprehend what we are up against here:
People who are so fanatically devoted to their religious views they are more than ready, willing and able to kill people to spread their beliefs and conquer territory to impose religious law wherever they go.
Only at our peril do we not realize this.
No offese to "Arctic," and he may well be a real big-shot in Norway, but he obviously has not a real clue about what this is all about.
Are you saying that I lack credibility on this topic?
Interpret as you will, but if it were the case it wouldn't be the first time. The two things that stand out in my memory were your assertion that police here in America wouldn't use or have not used helicopters for speed enforcement and what imposing adversaries Muslim fighting forces were. Both were proven false (except maybe the Pershmerga) and actually there was a third incident I can't seem to recall right now but will if you choose to push the envelope.
So while respected and even appreciated your opinion isn't infallible by any means. Beyond that though and even more troubling is you almost come off as either a mouthpiece or sympathizer for Islam and at this point in history I don't think that is going to sit well with most here.
The_War_Wagon
09-19-14, 07:44
And I don't see anyone here supporting these activities or practices at all....
Well... that makes one... :rolleyes:
MountainRaven
09-19-14, 09:38
And ironically enough the people who are "mostly" having witch trials are...
And what these events, and many more, all have in common isn't that it's just a "few bad apples" or a small minority of "radicals" who don't practice "true Islam." The reality is that in our "modern world" there is ONE major religion which is still conducting witch trials and putting people to death for being witches. In Saudi Arabia, and many other countries, Sharia is the law of the land and they enforce witch laws with the same dedication that we enforce laws regarding sexual assault.
While thousands are murdered in Africa by Christians in witchcraft trials... and it has gotten so bad in South Africa that the police have told village chiefs and healers that they will be held to account for anyone murdered after being accused of witchcraft.
Whiskey_Bravo
09-19-14, 10:18
Why are we talking about witchcraft in Africa now?
28588
Interesting stuff in the news.
2 Afghan police officers vanish during visit to Georgetown. (http://dccrimestories.com/afghan-police-officers-disappear-visit-georgetown/)
Two Afghan nationals training with the Drug Enforcement Agency disappeared while visiting Georgetown over the weekend, and authorities still do not know their whereabouts.
The two men were police officers with Afghanistan Ministry of Interior Affairs, described by law enforcement officials as the equivalent of the DEA in the United States. The group had been training at the Quantico Marine Corps Base for about a month to combat drug trafficking. They graduated Thursday and are scheduled to leave the country Friday...
40 American ISIL Fighters Have Already Returned to the United States (http://freebeacon.com/national-security/dem-rep-40-american-isil-fighters-have-already-returned-to-the-united-states/)
Rep. Tim Bishop (D., N.Y.) warned during a recent speech that up to 40 radicalized U.S. citizens who have fought alongside the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant (ISIL or ISIS) have already returned to the United States, where they could pose a terrorist threat.
Bishop claims that of the 100 or so Americans who have traveled to the Middle East to join ISIL’s ranks, some 40 have returned...
Four Terrorists Captured on US Border on September 10 – Day Before 9-11 (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/09/breaking-islamist-terrorists-captured-on-us-border-on-september-10-day-before-9-11-video/) Video at link.
Congressman Jason Chaffetz broke this shocking news Wednesday that four known terrorists were apprehended at the US border in Texas on September 10 – the day before the 13th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks.
Chaffetz questioned Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson on whether he is “aware of any apprehensions of suspected or known terrorists.”
Johnson dodged the question.
Tonight, Rep. Chaffetz told Megyn Kelly there were four terrorists arrested crossing the US border in Texas on September 10...
Why are we talking about witchcraft in Africa now?
28588
Because people can't sustain a rational conversation, that's why.
When the "witch burners" organize themselves with heavy weapons and great training and raise an army of 31,000 men, intent on conquering Africa for Islam, talking about them in this thread may be of some relevancy. Otherwise, it's just a case of idiots being idiots.
Averageman
09-19-14, 12:02
I'm not sure how giving "Moderate" Muslims fighters in Syria guns to fight ISIS is going to fix the problem.
"Moderates" seem to remain moderate only until they get arms and gather in large groups. Shortly upon having a tactical edge they seem to radicalize their cause and fight against anyone and everyone else who is less powerful in tribal warfare. The situation quickly becomes worse and they then begin to export terror, take/kill hostages and threaten the West with terrorist attacks.
Add these contents to a martinni shaker, add ice, shake and pour in to a frosted glass and add a couple of big olives. Repeat as often as twice a decade.
It would appear to me the only thing Muslims understand is a serious beat down followed by a Dictator who is crazy enough to kill everyone who opposes him. Giving these guys a democracy is like trying to teach algebra to a Chimp.
It seriously looks as if we are going to continue down this path until we either commit to total warfare on the scale of WWII or just give up.
I'm not sure how sitting down with the Russians and the Chinese and coming up with an agreement to end this shit wouldn't be a better idea.
While thousands are murdered in Africa by Christians in witchcraft trials... and it has gotten so bad in South Africa that the police have told village chiefs and healers that they will be held to account for anyone murdered after being accused of witchcraft.
Are those Africans who have converted to Christianity but still engage in witch hunts? Or are you talking about European or American Christians who go to Africa to kill witches? If it's the latter I'd love to see your "by the thousands" numbers and sources.
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