View Full Version : Noveske Gen III VS. KAC SR-15 Mod 2
I am looking to purchase my first high end AR-15 and I have narrowed it down to:
Noveske Gen III http://www.shopnoveske.com/collections/rifles/products/noveske-recon-rifle
KAC SR-15 Mod 2 http://www.knightarmco.com/portfolio/sr-15-iws-e3-carbine-mod-2/#!prettyPhoto
What I wanted to know is how the accuracy, wight, reliability, ext. compare between the two. Also from the owners of either why you chose to go with the rifle.
This isn't going to be all that helpful, but: the Mod2's are not out in numbers just yet, aside from that the biggest differences are barrel profile as far as performance, the handguard/lower/sights are the next biggest difference in feel.
The GenIII Recce is going to be a stainless barreled very precise setup, but heavier mostly due to the barrel (and a little bit due to the SWS rail vs. others). The flared lowers are awesome, I picked up a few as chainsaw lowers and right now I've condensed to running the Noveske lowers myself and the SR15 lowers for my wife.
The KAC runs a lighter profile CHF/CL barrel, but one which is remarkably accurate. The handguards and ambi features of the lower I'd argue are far superior, and the intermediate gas system is also extra awesome.
Other more confusing options:
[What I'd go with]
BCM KMR Recce Upper on Noveske Stripped GEN3 Lower w/ Colt LPK, GSSA-E/G2S-E + Ambi parts as needed (Norgon AmbiCatch, BAD Selector) add KAC Offset Folding Sights
KAC SR15 Mod1 - same awesome barrel, more available (I personally prefer the URX3.1 13.5" handguard)
Or the money-is-no-object build: MSTN Custom Noveske 16" Intermediate Barreled Upper, MUR-1S, URX3.1(or KMR/URX4) KAC Offset Sights; Noveske Gen3 Lower as above - take the best parts of both and roll with that.
Both companies make outstanding products, you really can't go wrong either way.
If you're running it like a combat carbine, take the KAC from those two choices. If you're running it like a precision rifle, take the Noveske.
Both can be used in both roles. Both are reliable, accurate enough, etc. The Noveske will be a bit more accurate, the KAC arguably more reliable due to the bolt. The KAC will be much lighter.
I have a Mod1 and an equivalent Noveske upper. Both are great, but have different uses. I try not to waste the Noveske's SS barrel life in run and gun competitions at 25m (and I do worse because of the weight), but I would rather shoot it at 500m than the KAC.
Id also recommend MSTN
and look at the new vltor rifles...the best specs including noveske barrels
I have a Noveske Afghan with the SWS rail and it is very similar to what you are considering with the model linked.
The only negative point that I can make about the rifle it's heavy. Otherwise, the Stainless Noveske rifles are extremely accurate.
My primary range rifle is a custom upper built on the 16" Recon barrel and it has been a great shooter with just about any .223 or 5.56 rounds shot through the gun. With 55gr .223 reloads I am getting 1" groups at 100 yards using a 4X scope.
I didn't keep a log for the barrel but my rough estimate is approx. 5K rounds, mostly 55 gr FMJ.
The rifle pictured is over 12 Lbs.
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeandShortDot106.jpg (http://s757.photobucket.com/user/SkiDevil01/media/NoveskeandShortDot106.jpg.html)
I choose the Noveske Afghan because of my experience with the Recon barrel and I wanted a factory complete stainless rifle. My experience has been that the Noveske rifles are reliable and accurate.
The only ammo mine don't like are the PMC .223 55gr FMJ loads. Lastly, the dozen or so people who have shot my Noveske rifles always comment on the accuracy.
If you are looking for a general purpose, accurate rifle, the model you are looking at would be a great choice. Otherwise, if weight is a factor, then check-out one of the Chrome lined barreled models with the new rail.
I can't offer any opinions on the Knight's carbines.
Depending on what you want to do with the rifle, I can't see you going wrong with either choice. I honestly don't think you have to spend quite so much to get the same/similar results though, FWIW.
Thanks for the input! I don't anticipate shooting more than 150-200yds. Does any one have pictures of accuracy?
Not sure exactly what you're after with regard to 'pictures of accuracy'. With Mk262 or other good loads, the SR15 16" barrels are capable of pretty consistent 1.25" 5rd groups at 100yd in my experience, which is way more than adequate.
If you're staying within 200yd, then I'd be short list looking at:
KAC SR15 (Mod1/Mod2) - of the two you listed this one might make the most sense.
BCM ELW Profile Barrel KMR Uppers (Very similar to the URX4 options, same concept of a barrel that is a tack driver for its weight class)
Daniel Defense V5LW or V11 LW (These are very reasonably priced for what they are, you'd be remiss to not at least take a look).
and other similar options.
Again, BCM has a reallly attractive option, there are some really solid options from Centurion, Noveske, and others with regard to lightweight profile very precise rifles, but most any good CHF/CL setup is quite accurate within that distance regime, my DD V5LW out to 250 is more accurate than it needs to be despite having a mediocre optic for precision work (TR24RT), so having a super precise Afghan/Recce type barrel would be mostly added weight until you're really trying to stretch the legs on that setup. To be completely honest a Colt 6720 would probably meet your accuracy needs; if you do want a complete rifle setup there are some great choices.
I would have to agree with TehLlama, the Daniel Defense rifles are very well made guns and priced right. Not to mention, the various BCM models, particularly with the sales/ deals currently being offered.
If you are looking at using the rifle a shorter ranges under 200 yards then I would buy a Colt 6920 or DDM4 variant. Either could be modified at a later date should your requirements and skill exceed the capability of the rifle.
P.S. Search under Trident's postings, because he did some accuracy testing using a DD light-weight barrel. You might be surprised of the capability that a quality rack grade rifle such as a Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense will provide with optics, good ammunition, and a competent shooter.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?111488-Evaluating-Daniel-Defense-s-14-5-quot-CHF-LW-5-56-barrel
For the range stated, go with the KAC.
I definitely love Noveske, but you could check out a Hodge as well... Apparently they're pretty solid rifles.
This carbine is 110% solid and built from top of the line components. You can do a search of the accuracy that has been reported by the end users. With the money you save you can get some mags and ammo.
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=107
Both are good rifles but you will not regret it if you go with the Noveske. It is an outstanding rifle. Get the Noveske and you will never look back.
-Intermediate gas system
-KAC cam pin size
-KAC rounded lugs
KAC is my choice
http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s571/cal1979/kac2_zpsaf7e8742.jpg (http://s1306.photobucket.com/user/cal1979/media/kac2_zpsaf7e8742.jpg.html)
Vote for the Noveske...the two I have had were truly magnificent rifles. Craftsmanship is unrivaled IMO.
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Or the money-is-no-object build: MSTN Custom Noveske 16" Intermediate Barreled Upper, MUR-1S, URX3.1(or KMR/URX4) KAC Offset Sights; Noveske Gen3 Lower as above - take the best parts of both and roll with that.
If you want a Noveske built rifle this is what I would do ^.
I built one like it myself, but of course you don't get the Noveske Secret Unicorn Giz Build when you do it yourself. I'm sure Noveske builds a rifle better than I can.
I like the medium profile Noveske steel barrel, I'd rather have a slightly heavier barrel and make up the weight difference with a light rail.
So here is what I did twice:
Noveske Gen II (nearly the same as GenIII) lower
DD LPK (you'd be better off using a Colt LPK)
Geissele trig. you choose
BAD selector
LMT RE (I like this RE) but if you don't mind more length get the Vltor A5
H2 buffer
I used the B5 SOPMOD
MUR upper
Noveske medium profile steel barrel (would work fine for you since you're shooting 150-200 max)
BattleComp muzzle device. Or pick your favorite.
BCM or your favorite BCG
BCM KMR forearm
I ended up with a very nice shooting rifle. With a slight rearward balance.
You could have Noveske brew something similar with Noveske parts if price is no object.
This is a tough decision, but luckily there is no Bad choices.
I have owned 2 SR15's, a Legacy and a Mod 1. Both were amazing, and were 100% reliable, including suppressed. There is a special feel about the KAC rifles that no other rifle has, its more than the sum of its parts. Between the smooth shooting and the nimble handling it is IMO the best out of the box fighting carbine on the market. However the BCM ELW uppers with the KMR are pretty damn close.
I have also owned a couple Noveske's, however none of the gen 3's. They have always been more accurate than I, and have also been uber reliable. They also grouped slightly better than My SR15's, but in handling it is no comparison, the KAC wins. I'll be honest, I do not think the Gen 3's are worth the asking price, sure they are beautiful and shoot amazingly, but I just cant see myself spending more for something that'll i'll still have to spend cash upgrading the trigger and adding ambi controls.
I mentioned the BCM ELW uppers, I would take a serious look at these as well, BCM may not have the 'boutique' reputation like Noveske and KAC do, but I feel their quality is every bit as good.
As IG posted, the Sionics Rifles are an excellent offering for a great price. I haven't owned one yet, but I have put some rounds through them and they may group every bit as well as the Noveske rifles do at nearly half the cost.
They both make amazing rifles.
I had a noveske rogue hunter and the fit and finish was superb.The rifle was a great shooter and noveske really pay attention to small details when putting something together.
My vote however goes to the sr15,Its the one rifle For the money you cant build.I 100% absolutely dont regret spending the money on one and plan to buy atleast one more this year.I love the facts its a complete soft shooting package straight out of the box
superstratjunky
09-20-14, 20:12
This carbine is 110% solid and built from top of the line components. You can do a search of the accuracy that has been reported by the end users. With the money you save you can get some mags and ammo.
http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=107
This, & good advise too. But if your going to spend money, you might as well get something capable of longer range accuracy. Not saying you'll use it, but it'd be nice if it were there.
Not sure what you are saying. You do realize that barrel length doesn't equal accuracy right? You do realize that an M4 Colt carbine can accurately hit beyond 500 yards with the right shooter, ammo, etc...
This, & good advise too. But if your going to spend money, you might as well get something capable of longer range accuracy. Not saying you'll use it, but it'd be nice if it were there.
bigheadcal
09-21-14, 00:04
if the mod 2 is anything like the mod 1...Go KAC
Definitely would go with the Knights Armament rig. Im partial to the mod 1 (because of the URX 3.1 rail), but the mod 2 will, no doubt, be a solid carbine (haven't run a mod 2, personally).
Not sure what you are saying. You do realize that barrel length doesn't equal accuracy right? You do realize that an M4 Colt carbine can accurately hit beyond 500 yards with the right shooter, ammo, etc...
Exactly.
What are you actually needing this Rifle to do for you? Your General Purpose HD/SHTF Rifle? Patrol Carbine? Range Plinker? DMR/Tactical Rifle Competitions?
Basically, what are your Goals and Expectations?
Both companies make outstanding products, you really can't go wrong either way.
Excellent advice!
KAC.
It offers innovation and aesthetics. The Noveske has aesthetics but functionally offers nothing different or better.
This is a big preference situation. The Noveske will weigh more. That's one basic difference. Aside from that consideration I really would just think out what it is you want to do; what you prefer. As it was said, can't go wrong with either in terms of how hard you can "run" them.
I wouldn't be looking at this situation thru a Brand Filtered Lens, but rather, a Features & Benefits Lens. Both Manufacturers are obviously Top Notch, and command Premium Prices.
Stainless Barrel vs. Chrome Lined
Heavier Weight Profile Barrel vs. Lighter Weight Profile
Proprietary Barrel Extension & Bolt vs. Milspec Barrel Extension & Bolt
Billet vs. Forged Receivers
Ambi vs. Non-Ambi Lower
Troy BUIS vs. KAC Micro BUIS
LMT SOPMOD vs. Magpul STR
Single Stage Trigger vs. Crip & Lighter 2 Stage
Gas Block secured via Pins vs. Locking Ring
Ambi Safety Selector vs. Non-Ambi Safety Selector
Ambi Charging Handle vs. Non-Ambi Charging Handle
13.5" Keymod Rail vs. 15" Keymod Rail
I'm sure I've missed something, but you get the idea. What are your Needs and Wants? Maybe draw a Pros/Cons List.
What I want from my AR is to be light enough to be carried all day (semi-comfortably), and use as a combat rifle more than precision rifle, and will be using it in adverse dusty environment. The rifle I that I buy will stick around for a long time so I want a good one with a longer rail.
You have described the SR15.
What I want from my AR is to be light enough to be carried all day (semi-comfortably), and use as a combat rifle more than precision rifle, and will be using it in adverse dusty environment. The rifle I that I buy will stick around for a long time so I want a good one with a longer rail.
agreed. you are staring straight at the SR15, at this point.
What I want from my AR is to be light enough to be carried all day (semi-comfortably), and use as a combat rifle more than precision rifle, and will be using it in adverse dusty environment. The rifle I that I buy will stick around for a long time so I want a good one with a longer rail.
You are in fact looking for an SR-15 or something with very similar execution and design goals.
SR-15 (Mod1 or Mod2 equally awesome in that role)
DanielDefense V5LW or V11LW
BCM Complete Rifle with 16" ELW Barrel and 13/15" KMR [or can run any rail you wish]
Noveske 16" Lightweight (Rogue Hunter or Thunder Ranch type)
Or build your own unicorn (Noveske Flared lower or an ambi capable San Tan/KAC/API Gen2 offering), run the complete upper you like best. If the feature/parts set on the SR15 is what you want, it's untouchable for value. If you don't need the ambi features other lowers are more attractive/better value; if you want something different on the configuration for the upper, it's possible to get really close (I consider the DD V5LW to be the poor man's version of the Mod0/Mod1 SR15's, and the V11 upper mirrors the Mod2 SR15 - performance isn't identical and the E3 bolt setup is it's own animal, but those DD options are truly the cost conscious version benchmarked to give comparable performance). The Noveske options, like the TRS are going to be very solid accurate setups, and the BCM especially ELW/KMR is arguably the best performance per ounce unit available. Too many good options; if you're looking at buying them complete it almost comes down to the furniture/triggers/sights they ship with as much as anything else [e.g. the SR15s beg for an MOE or similar pistol grip, the BCM you'll want to hold off until places like G&R have the complete BCM Lowers w/ Mod3 GF Grip and the new GF Buttstock; DanielDefense has their own complete furniture set which I have yet to handle, etc.].
What I want from my AR is to be light enough to be carried all day (semi-comfortably), and use as a combat rifle more than precision rifle, and will be using it in adverse dusty environment. The rifle I that I buy will stick around for a long time so I want a good one with a longer rail.
You'll be happier with the lighter one, and will probably never notice the accuracy difference between the two. KAC.
justin_247
09-23-14, 10:58
Is this your first rifle?
For the kind of money you're looking at spending here, you could buy a Colt 6720 or 6920, a KAC rail, a good optic, light, sling, 10 mags, and a 1,000 rounds of ammo, and then still have money left over.
Digital_Damage
09-23-14, 16:00
With what you are describing KAC Mod2 all the way.
Vltor praetorian, I've been looking and haven't found anything that comes close
Digital_Damage
09-24-14, 10:02
I love threads where a guy asks "compare these two options" Then 80% of the responses are "x" brand or "build your own" :confused:
Thanks for the input! I don't anticipate shooting more than 150-200yds. Does any one have pictures of accuracy?
You'll be happier with the lighter one, and will probably never notice the accuracy difference between the two. KAC.
I've owned multiple SR15's and had a custom upper from Grant with a Noveske N4 barrel. There was no tangible difference in accuracy between any of them. Compared to a stainless barreled Noveske, the SR15 will offer lighter weight. For the ranges you're considering, get the KAC.
Definitely would go with the Knights Armament rig. Im partial to the mod 1 (because of the URX 3.1 rail), but the mod 2 will, no doubt, be a solid carbine (haven't run a mod 2, personally).
I'm a little late to the party, but I am very happy with my KAC Mod 1. I prefer the URX 3.1 rail as well, and according to KAC they both are 6.6lbs. You'd could save a few bucks going Mod 1, unless you really prefer the keymod rail and updated gas system. I haven't shot a mod 2 for comparison or used a keymod rail..... so I'm partial to the URX for now.
I would go with the kac. Its just a great all around rifle. I would then put a t1 on it and call it a day.
Sent On The Fly
I've had the same 2 choices I came to the conclusion ....Knights have won my vote and the mod 1 was a great rifle but I think Knights just keeps getting better over all my opinion
I never looked at KAC, but not for any bad reasons.... When I bought my rifle, I went with the Noveske N4 CHF/CL barrel with the 15"NSR rail. It was a complete upper build straight from Noveske. My lower is a SIONICS lower which is very nice (matches my upper perfectly) and I had them build it to my specs for less than anywhere else could by $200+. Both places have terrific customer service and products.
I should mention that my goals with my gun were similar to yours. If you are not looking for "super accuracy" I would consider having the life of the CHF/CL barrel from Noveske over the rest.
Plus, I have to say that I think the Noveske rifles are hands down the sexiest thing I have ever seen in the rifle industry... That has to count for something right?
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I would agree Noveske do make some outstanding product never had the opportunity to run an NSR. I've seen YouTube reviews I must say It was awesome!
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After shooting Knights rifles for years, I vote Knights. I love how light my SR15 Mod 1 is, as was my legacy SR15. The guns have run flawlessly for me and are very accurate. One cool thing is when people pick my rifle up for the first time and they remark on how light it is and ask if it's an airsoft/toy gun... Noveske would be a great choice for a rifle as well, but from the applications you are describing the Knights would be the way to go.
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