Suggestions for a 14.5 upper

[TexanInCali]

Hi all,

I'm considering what to get as an upper for my second AR. My first is a BCM SS410 16" KMR upper with a lower I assembled myself. I've been very pleased with it.

I have another stripped lower I'd like to build up. So far, my inclination is to go with a Noveske 14.5 Afghan upper.

Honestly, I don't have a particular mission or purpose for this build. As I'm fairly new to ARs, I want to try out different brands and general configurations to gain experience. The main reason for considering a 14.5 is simply to try a shorter setup without straying into NFA territory.

I'd appreciate any suggestions for other brands I might try. I'd like to try something besides BCM, simply to try out other quality brands. I'm willing to spend up to $2,000 on just the upper. I realize that's high, but I'll spend it if need be.

Thanks,
T

[Sasahara]

Hi all,

I'm considering what to get as an upper for my second AR. My first is a BCM SS410 16" KMR upper with a lower I assembled myself. I've been very pleased with it.

I have another stripped lower I'd like to build up. So far, my inclination is to go with a Noveske 14.5 Afghan upper.

Honestly, I don't have a particular mission or purpose for this build. As I'm fairly new to ARs, I want to try out different brands and general configurations to gain experience. The main reason for considering a 14.5 is simply to try a shorter setup without straying into NFA territory.

I'd appreciate any suggestions for other brands I might try. I'd like to try something besides BCM, simply to try out other quality brands. I'm willing to spend up to $2,000 on just the upper. I realize that's high, but I'll spend it if need be.

Thanks,
T

Thats some budget you have for just an upper. Why not just go for it and grab a KAC then? Plenty left over for an optic.

[joeyjoe]

Exactly. With a budget like yours, Id be headed straight to Knights Armament. SR15 E3 Mod 1. Done. You can then chop the barrel and pin + weld flash hider if you are really into that. A lot of people will tell you to move away from a 14.5 pin + weld setup. And there are some very good reasons to go 16 inch. However, As long as you have a great rail/forearm and you know exactly what muzzle device you need, I don't see a problem. My favorite carbine is a BCM 14.5" BFH w/ 12" centurion C4 rail and permanent battle comp. Wouldn't want to change a thing. Given the fact that the KAC SR15 mod 1 comes with an incredible rail (URX 3.1), I see no problem chopping that thing down to 14.5. The main problem people run into is buying an upper with a crappy rail and a muzzle device they end up not really liking. Anyways...KAC.

[snakedoctor]

The Gen III Noveske uppers look damn good. Rog tac has a deal on some 14.5's right now

[TMS951]

Check out this link, I bought a Vltor VIS with a noveske 18"SS SPR barrel and a Young mfr. National match chromed BCG for about 1149$. At that time Noveske was trying to sell almost the same upper for 1600$.

http://www.pkfirearms.com/Noveske_Custom_Uppers/83/c

You can get tons of uppers from them with Noveske barrels and different rails. Three examples of in stock uppers:

Noveske 16 Inch Lightweight - Geissele 13 Inch MK4 Rail 979$ w/ bcg
Noveske 16 Inch Lightweight - KAC URX III 12.5 Inch Rail 979$ w/ bcg
Noveske 14.5 Inch Afghan - Vltor VIS KM-12 Keymod Rail 1119$ w/ bcg

They will upgrade the BCG to a Young NM for something like 30$

I have been very happy with my upper and with PK firearms.

[2nd.amendment]

Lots of quality options depending on what you like from simple and reliable like a Colt 6921 or LMT Basic upper (both have FSBs and carbine length gas systems) or Noveske Basic/MOE uppers (similar but mid-length with FSB) to the more expensive options with free float rails like KAC, Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT MRP, Hodge Defense, Rainier Arms.

Since you have a SS410 upper, it seems like a chrome lined upper might be a nice contrast. Honestly, if I were you, I would look hard at the BCM ELW uppers, even though you said not BCM. The ELW uppers with KMR would give a very different feel than your current upper and are pretty much the lightest upper going without building it yourself.

There are a ton of other options too, so it will really just depend on what you want. Things to consider include
-gas system (carbine or mid-length)
-Lopro gas block or FSB
-Slick rail or quad rail
-Barrel - stainless, chrome-lined, nitrided, stainless & nitrided . . .

If you can narrow those down somewhat or identify particular things to you like, a particular rail, for example, it will make it easier.

[davidjinks]

I would go with a straight up Colt 14.5" upper, get it pinned, add a KAC M4 RAS and take the extra 1200 bucks and invest in ammo and mags.

[Grizzly16]

I'm sure some will hate this but have you considered a pistol build? An 10.5/11.5 barrel is amazing compared to a 16/17" upper for in house/vehicle work. The pistol avoids NFA but gets you a short barrel.

[LewP]

After building a "tubby" I'd be thinking about a lightweight. To see how the folks on the other side of the tracks live. Scopes and SS barrels are cool...but there are other alternatives for different purposes.

[TexanInCali]

Thanks for the responses folks. At this stage, I'm researching, so this is all good food for thought.

[TexanInCali]

After building a "tubby" I'd be thinking about a lightweight. To see how the folks on the other side of the tracks live. Scopes and SS barrels are cool...but there are other alternatives for different purposes.

Thats my thinking on going with a 14.5. I want to try out a shorter, lighter rifle. Surprisingly, my SS410 BCM isn't all that heavy due to the KMR. The whole thing comes in at 7 lbs with irons. Still, I want to try a completely different feel.

[TehLlama]

Short? Light? BCM ELW 14.5" Middy with KMR13 - basically the lithe version of the upper you've already got; but you can run the control layout identically and use this as a training analog for your recce setup.
It'll feel plenty different, especially with some differentiation on the optics (Aimpoint H1/T1 on the ELW, a low powered variable on the SS410).

[PatrioticDisorder]

Exactly. With a budget like yours, Id be headed straight to Knights Armament. SR15 E3 Mod 1. Done. You can then chop the barrel and pin + weld flash hider if you are really into that. A lot of people will tell you to move away from a 14.5 pin + weld setup. And there are some very good reasons to go 16 inch. However, As long as you have a great rail/forearm and you know exactly what muzzle device you need, I don't see a problem. My favorite carbine is a BCM 14.5" BFH w/ 12" centurion C4 rail and permanent battle comp. Wouldn't want to change a thing. Given the fact that the KAC SR15 mod 1 comes with an incredible rail (URX 3.1), I see no problem chopping that thing down to 14.5. The main problem people run into is buying an upper with a crappy rail and a muzzle device they end up not really liking. Anyways...KAC.

Not the way to go, KAC advises against chopping a 16 barrel to 14.5, there are many differences between a stock KAC 14.5 vs. 16 including the gas port. KAC 14.5 ship with a beaker buffer, it would be a better idea to get a 14.5 KAC upper, barrel has a heavier profile and dimpled and that barrel while a smidge heavier is widely reported to yield better accuracy than a 16" mod 1. Right now I'm waiting for Mod 2 14.5 & 11.5 upper, I hope they are out sometime early 2015 because I'd like to snag 1 or 2 of each for myself.

[SpeedRacer]

14.5" BCM ELW middy would be an excellent choice. If the "no BCM" thing is firm, I'd look into Daniel Defense as well. I have a 14.5" LW midlength DD rifle that is my go to, I absolutely love the way it handles. You can custom build it through DD's website, if it's available their new keymod rail would probably be the way to go.

I personally have no problem with pinned uppers, just make sure you pick a good rail and muzzle device and resist the urge to tinker and there's no reason not to.

[Rayrevolver]

A Sig brace + KAK super tube or Phase 5 Hex2 make the pistol a viable option IMHO.

I tried the 14.5 thing for a while and got out of it because of the pinned muzzle device. If you already have a 16 i would try a 10.5 - 12.5 range.

[trauma]

KAC 14.5 dimpled upper with a pinned MAMS.
https://www.boltcarrier.com/uploaded/thumbnails/db_file_img_302_720x720.jpg

[SkiDevil]

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=Noveske+afghan

There are no uppers or complete rifles listed on the Noveske website, but several are listed on Gunbroker. I would recommend picking-up the complete rifle. There is one listed with the NSR rail for $2K. Mine has the SWS rail, and is a little on the heavy-side. You may want to take a look at one before buying.

One thing to keep in mind is that both the upper and complete rifles will regularly turn up on various forum exchanges like AR15.com, Calguns, here M4Carbine.net, etc. I think many are re-sold because most don't realize that the stainless rifles are heavier than the standard chrome lined barreled rifles.

I would try to utilize a reputable dealer myself or just wait until one is back in stock on the Noveske website. Ranier Arms carries alot of their products too (Their site says the Afghan rifle is in stock, but with the Switch Block only).

Good luck.

https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4444

[krm375]

As far as other brands go, I kinda would look at the opposite route, stick to you you have BCM is a solid company, look at their 14.5 options, stay with the KMR rail and just go shorter on the barrel. Keeping like minded uppers mean that if you need to do it you can bastardize one to make the other work should the need arise. I heard a warrior princess once say "Two is one and one is none"

[Wake27]

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=Noveske+afghan

There are no uppers or complete rifles listed on the Noveske website, but several are listed on Gunbroker. I would recommend picking-up the complete rifle. There is one listed with the NSR rail for $2K. Mine has the SWS rail, and is a little on the heavy-side. You may want to take a look at one before buying.

One thing to keep in mind is that both the upper and complete rifles will regularly turn up on various forum exchanges like AR15.com, Calguns, here M4Carbine.net, etc. I think many are re-sold because most don't realize that the stainless rifles are heavier than the standard chrome lined barreled rifles.

I would try to utilize a reputable dealer myself or just wait until one is back in stock on the Noveske website. Ranier Arms carries alot of their products too (Their site says the Afghan rifle is in stock, but with the Switch Block only).

Good luck.

https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=4444

As another member mentioned, ROGTac has a decent amount of their stuff in right now.

[Iraqgunz]

You really aren't shedding weight or length when you look at them side by side. You are however adding extra cost and handicapping yourself down the road should you decide to make a change. You live in Cali which also complicates the issue. As reluctant as I am to say it, I would either look at a well-built AR pistol with a Sig Brace or something like a MK12 or something unique.


Thats my thinking on going with a 14.5. I want to try out a shorter, lighter rifle. Surprisingly, my SS410 BCM isn't all that heavy due to the KMR. The whole thing comes in at 7 lbs with irons. Still, I want to try a completely different feel.

[TexanInCali]

You really aren't shedding weight or length when you look at them side by side. You are however adding extra cost and handicapping yourself down the road should you decide to make a change. You live in Cali which also complicates the issue. As reluctant as I am to say it, I would either look at a well-built AR pistol with a Sig Brace or something like a MK12 or something unique.

I considered an SPR MK12 type build originally and still like the idea. I ended up going with the 16" SS410 mostly because the 18" wasn't available. Would you recommend going with something like the following?

http://www.precisionreflex.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1046643&CAT=4824

Or would something like the new DD MK12 be any better or worse?

Overall, what difference would I see with the MK12 from the 16" SS410? The BCM is already way more accurate than me. My teen daughter nails cloverleaf 5 round holes at 100yds with iron sights off a bipod. I can keep it around 1.5 to 2 moa.

I'm not sure if I can do a pistol build with this stripped lower. It was purchased in California and the paperwork said long gun. I've been told I cannot legally make a pistol with that lower. Not sure if that's true as I didn't pursue the issue.

Thanks, T

[TexanInCali]

I'm very intrigued by KAC products. I've only seen them a few times, but have never fired one. However, a lot of people on this site just love them. Am I right in thinking this might be something better suited to buy as a complete rifle instead of mating the upper with a regular Spikes lower or does it really matter?

I shoot lefty due to cross eye dominance, so one of those KAC ambi lowers would be nice. We're planning a move back to Texas next year, so I'd wait to get a complete rifle then. I don't want to buy any more long guns in California.

[Iraqgunz]

I wouldn't buy that, but that's me. For 1500.00 I can build or get an entire carbine/rifle with the exact specs I want. The difference you will see would mostly be in the little additional muzzle velocity which would give you a little more in the terminal ballistics dept.

What are you doing with this? Are you shooting competition? Shit and giggles? TEOTWA?


I considered an SPR MK12 type build originally and still like the idea. I ended up going with the 16" SS410 mostly because the 18" wasn't available. Would you recommend going with something like the following?

http://www.precisionreflex.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=1046643&CAT=4824

Or would something like the new DD MK12 be any better or worse?

Overall, what difference would I see with the MK12 from the 16" SS410? The BCM is already way more accurate than me. My teen daughter nails cloverleaf 5 round holes at 100yds with iron sights off a bipod. I can keep it around 1.5 to 2 moa.

I'm not sure if I can do a pistol build with this stripped lower. It was purchased in California and the paperwork said long gun. I've been told I cannot legally make a pistol with that lower. Not sure if that's true as I didn't pursue the issue.

Thanks, T

[TexanInCali]

I've been shooting since I was a kid, but this would only be my second AR, so at this point I'm looking to learn and try out different configurations. It may be a little aimless, but I've enjoyed my first at bat with the platform and would like to gain experience with a variety of setups.

I've seen many seemingly knowledgable members discuss the 14.5, and the Noveske Afghan in particular, in good terms, which piqued my curiosity, but by no means am I married to that idea.

I'd like to take some AR specific training classes as part of the process. I'm not sure if the 16" SS410 would be the ideal tool, but it should work for a few classes. It's reasonably light thanks to the KMR.

Also, I know my limitations, so I'm not ready to build an upper. I'll leave that to the pros.

[AztecViking]

I shoot lefty due to cross eye dominance, so one of those KAC ambi lowers would be nice. We're planning a move back to Texas next year, so I'd wait to get a complete rifle then. I don't want to buy any more long guns in California.

Good call on waiting to buy the KAC lower until you move. You really cannot utilize the full benefit of the ambi lower in California due to the bullet button law.

[vicious_cb]

I've been shooting since I was a kid, but this would only be my second AR, so at this point I'm looking to learn and try out different configurations. It may be a little aimless, but I've enjoyed my first at bat with the platform and would like to gain experience with a variety of setups.

I've seen many seemingly knowledgable members discuss the 14.5, and the Noveske Afghan in particular, in good terms, which piqued my curiosity, but by no means am I married to that idea.

I'd like to take some AR specific training classes as part of the process. I'm not sure if the 16" SS410 would be the ideal tool, but it should work for a few classes. It's reasonably light thanks to the KMR.

Also, I know my limitations, so I'm not ready to build an upper. I'll leave that to the pros.

The afghan is a stainless steel match grade barrel. You already have a BCM stainless match grade barrel. Not really sure why would go for such a similar upper since their capabilities pretty much overlap.

[Wake27]

The afghan is a stainless steel match grade barrel. You already have a BCM stainless match grade barrel. Not really sure why would go for such a similar upper since their capabilities pretty much overlap.

Agreed. Your whole reasoning for not wanting another BCM is because you want something different but the Afghan is the same flavor, just a different brand. Get either a Noveske CL or some other CL - not another stainless. Especially for classes and high volume shooting. No sense shooting out a precision barrel on shots where it doesn't even make a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TehLlama]

I'll dogpile in and agree you don't want something so close to what you already have; and also point out that IG really nailed more of the point.
As much as I'd argue my suggest of a lightweight otherwise identical 14.5" ELW KMR unit is the best short term choice (and still probably totally viable as a spare upper for it), there is plenty of merit in looking into a pistol length (for current setup) AR to use right now, and then look at running that upper on an SBR once you're back in actual free America.
I'd argue you have something that would virtually obsolete a full Mk12 setup (I have a Centurion Mk12 barreled upper, and I don't see myself using it anytime my HCS Recce (16" version of same barrel) is an option unless I want t leave a different optic on the SPR and be done with it. That 16" SS Recce you have with a 5-6" can on it will be glorious as precision 5.56 rifle, Pappabear and MarkM have shown that those setups in the right conditions are capable of pushing the limits of 224 caliber maglength projectile external ballistics just fine.

So I'd aim for something handier - ideal answer (and this is quite close to what I have) would be to have both a 14.5" ELW KMR setup (with MB for compliance is fine) as a very light/handy/travel ready setup, and an 11.5" KMR or similar upper on either a pistol or SBR lower (more on compliance with derpy legislation than anything else between those). I have put a ton of time into what exact setup I'd run if I had to start completely over right now, and that exact trio is what I'd run - what I have is really close (URX 3 handguards are still awesome, I'll happily pay more for a MUR-1A upper, and building my own A5RE based lowers worked well).

[TexanInCali]

Thanks again to all the folks providing feedback and suggestions. I am taking it all under consideration.

Honestly, the heart of the problem is that there are so many great things one can do with a stripped lower. It took me many months of researching and asking questions, stupid and otherwise, before I decided on the BCM 16" SS410 I ended up getting. It's been such a great all around gun, ridiculously accurate at 100-200yd, while being light enough for my 12 year old son to shoot offhand comfortably. BCM build quality appears to be outstanding as far as I can tell. Now, I'd like something else great for my second AR.

As I mentioned, NFA options are out for me until I move back to America. I don't believe I can use this stripped lower for a pistol build as it was listed as "long gun" for DROS (California paperwork).

As some have noted, moving from a 16" SS barrel to a slightly different length SS barrel probably won't give me much difference. Given that my BCM is already very accurate and has some decent reach as mentioned by TehLamma, I don't see going for a longer distance build anytime soon.

That puts me right back at a 14.5 with pinned muzzle device, albeit something other than an SS Afghan. As Iraqgunz mentioned, that has some potential future limitations and gunsmithing costs.

Besides a BCM 14.5 ELW, what else is worth looking at? My only real reason to get something other than a BCM is to simply try out other top quality makers, but with the deals they have it's hard to say no.

This Noveske Gen III 14.5" Light Carbine Upper, 13.5" NSR Rail, Surefire SFMB (http://www.rogtac.com/noveske-g3-lclp-nsr-sf.html) is $1,495. The BCM equivalent is $600 less and over a pound lighter, making the Noveske hard to justify. I could buy a nice Aimpoint for the price difference.

[Wake27]

Thanks again to all the folks providing feedback and suggestions. I am taking it all under consideration.

Honestly, the heart of the problem is that there are so many great things one can do with a stripped lower. It took me many months of researching and asking questions, stupid and otherwise, before I decided on the BCM 16" SS410 I ended up getting. It's been such a great all around gun, ridiculously accurate at 100-200yd, while being light enough for my 12 year old son to shoot offhand comfortably. BCM build quality appears to be outstanding as far as I can tell. Now, I'd like something else great for my second AR.

As I mentioned, NFA options are out for me until I move back to America. I don't believe I can use this stripped lower for a pistol build as it was listed as "long gun" for DROS (California paperwork).

As some have noted, moving from a 16" SS barrel to a slightly different length SS barrel probably won't give me much difference. Given that my BCM is already very accurate and has some decent reach as mentioned by TehLamma, I don't see going for a longer distance build anytime soon.

That puts me right back at a 14.5 with pinned muzzle device, albeit something other than an SS Afghan. As Iraqgunz mentioned, that has some potential future limitations and gunsmithing costs.

Besides a BCM 14.5 ELW, what else is worth looking at? My only real reason to get something other than a BCM is to simply try out other top quality makers, but with the deals they have it's hard to say no.

This Noveske Gen III 14.5" Light Carbine Upper, 13.5" NSR Rail, Surefire SFMB (http://www.rogtac.com/noveske-g3-lclp-nsr-sf.html) is $1,495. The BCM equivalent is $600 less and over a pound lighter, making the Noveske hard to justify. I could buy a nice Aimpoint for the price difference.

Noveske does have the double CL barrels, which in theory should mean twice the barrel life. They are also wildly regarded for being exceptionally accurate. I honestly have no proof of either though. Are you checking out the KAC vs Noveske Gen III thread that is running parallel to yours? It may help. I don't know how many ARs you want, I honestly never thought I'd even buy one because I figured I'd get more than enough time on them in the Army (clearly I was young and naive...), but here's my path that isn't all that dissimilar to yours: started with a factory Noveske CL that was incredible and I loved but the more I shot it, the more I realized what I wanted and didn't want, and unfortunately it had what I considered to be some serious drawbacks (short rail because of switch block). I sold it and went to a BCM BFH w/ Centurion 12" rail and BCM comp. I friggin love that thing but wanted another and it was too heavy for my wife so I bought a BCM ELW-F w/ KMR and BCM comp. Its welterweight fun and a great rifle, but the lack of weight made the recoil significantly more noticeable. I always said I'd buy another Noveske and now that I have one great AR for myself and one great AR for my wife, I need at least one backup. If I never had the Noveske, I don't know that I'd be itching to get another one so bad, but it was just one sick rifle. I am now in the slow process of saving for a BCM/Noveske love child made exactly the way I want with all of the nicest parts. After that, I'll probably want to at least try a KAC based on everything from the thread I mentioned, so beware before reading it.

Long story short - With BCM's deals right now, it is very hard to argue against anything they offer. If I didn't already have two, I would have taken advantage of their sale already. I think you should get a BFH 14.5" barrel with BCM comp and 13" KMR rail. There are only two reasons I am saying that over the Noveske you listed - the BCM comp is much better suited to all around usage than the SF (though that could be changed with a gunsmith) and I think the true aesthetic beauty of a Gen II or III Noveske upper is somewhat wasted on a regular lower.

ETA - now depending how different you want to go, this (http://www.rogtac.com/noveske/uppers/5-56mm/chrome-lined-hammer-forged-barrels/14-5-barrel/noveske-lcmoe-bc1-5.html) upper is also an option.

[SkiDevil]

Thanks again to all the folks providing feedback and suggestions. I am taking it all under consideration.

Honestly, the heart of the problem is that there are so many great things one can do with a stripped lower.

Now, I'd like something else great for my second AR.

As some have noted, moving from a 16" SS barrel to a slightly different length SS barrel probably won't give me much difference.

Besides a BCM 14.5 ELW, what else is worth looking at? My only real reason to get something other than a BCM is to simply try out other top quality makers, but with the deals they have it's hard to say no.

This is the Noveske model that I would take a look at for a 14.5 light-weight carbine. It would be a great rifle for taking classes.

https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2776

I wanted something different to the match grade rifle barreled ARs, so I went with this LMT model with a 14.5 barrel.

http://www.lmtstore.com/complete-weapon-systems-firearms-guns/complete-gas-weapons/defender-standard-patrol-model-16.html

A light-weight rifle is a joy to shoot and carry. I was going to get the Noveske light-weight 14.5 MOE carbine, but I couldn't find one at the time and really wanted a carbine length gas system.