View Full Version : Shotgun for HD: Heresy?
Elsewhere I ventured to opine that I believe a shotgun is a better HD choice than an AR and was met with criticism from AR lovers.
I've done a lot of reading, research and study on this topic, but am I truly all wet? Is the AR a superior HD weapon?
Here I have in mind a scenario of a weapon used inside a house, not picking off incoming Zombies from a hundred yards out as they move in for the kill.
Thoughts??
In my not nearly humble enough opinion, both are excellent choices depending on your preferences and level of comfort. I have both, and rotate which one is kept next to my bed ready to go from time to time. From an instantaneous incapacitation standpoint, I definitely prefer the shotgun. 00 Buckshot. Massad Ayoob has some vids out on using a .20 ga. with #4 Buckshot for persons who can tolerate less recoil but still want as close to optimum impact. The other great thing about shotguns is their versatility of loading. Concerned about over penetration? No problem, you can adjust your choice of shells accordingly. Concerned about small round size from an AR? No problem, you can use a 438 grain tactical slug, or various buckshot loads. 00B basically gets you 8-9 9mm pellets on target with one pull of the trigger. #1 buckshot still gets you plenty of penetration, many more pellets, and still large enough pellet sizes to create good wound channels. In recent years, #1 buck seems to have become a very popular choice for HD purposes. I personally still use 00 buck, but wouldn't have any concerns at all with someone going with #1.
Having said all of that, I also have no problem with use of an AR for HD (obviously). Doing so certainly has its advantages from a recoil standpoint, as well as an ammunition capacity standpoint, accuracy, etc.
If you were to set yourself up with a solid HD shotgun, I would be shocked if anyone here would lament your choice.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/
While not 100% conclusive because they obviously didnt test a TON of ammo, it to me shows that both are about equal in terms of penetration through drywall, especially with the common 00 buck and XM193 that a ton of people have. I would be interested to see what the Federal 00 with Flite Control wad would do as well as something like a 62g-64g SP(like a Gold Dot or Federal Fusion) and 75g TAP or 77g Federal(SMK). I think XM193 is generally considered a poor round for HD anyway. Even though the #8 only penetrated the 1 wall, I think its been shown to have very poor terminal ballistics through denim.
I wonder what kinds of velocity and energy each projectile had as it was penetrating each wall. Or for that matter, minimum amount of energy/speed required to penetrate drywall.
IrishDevil
09-20-14, 11:32
I have both shotgun and rifle setups for HD. I can choose whichever one seems most appropriate at the time, for the situation at hand.
The shotgun is my default social long gun, due to perceptions about "assault rifles". I will gladly pick up a rifle if needed for a situation, perceptions be damned.
JBecker 72
09-20-14, 11:40
An 18" shotgun is longer than a 16" carbine
A shotgun holds less ammo
A shotgun is harder to load
Both penetrate drywall, but a shotgun puts 9 projectiles out rather than 1 each time fired
The carbine has a wider range of capabilities
If you're good with a shotgun, go for it. I'm much more comfortable with a carbine.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=80131&sid=7508fddca951fd839ace27e709d6985c
Some info that might help in your decision making process.
Solid info, thanks. I would rather put 7 or more 9mm holes in a bad guy all at once than hope I get lucky with a 5.56 at close range, which may just icepick him and nothing else. I carry 14 rounds in and/or on the shotgun, figure that should do the trick
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Solid info, thanks. I would rather put 7 or more 9mm holes in a bad guy all at once than hope I get lucky with a 5.56 at close range, which may just icepick him and nothing else. I carry 14 rounds in and/or on the shotgun, figure that should do the trick
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
No worries. I can't fault your reasoning either. If I am clearing a house room to room, that is one thing. If I am holed up in a bedroom, its another. For the first case I would likely choose a carbine, but for the second, a shotgun is a good option, though a carbine can certainly do the job there as well.
The Shotgun or AR argument to me is akin to the Revolver vs Auto pistol argument. The Shotgun being the revolver, in that is some ways it is much simpler and has been around longer and is thus more accepted than that new fangled kids toy, and in some minds is pretty close to idiot proof(though considering I've seen people manage to **** up a single action revolver nothing is truly idiot proof). However, while it may be more simple in some respects, it is more complex in others, ergo for a pump, putting multiple rounds on target requires one to work the pump opposed to just pulling the trigger again, and again, and again until the threat is no longer a threat, as well as the reload and ability to aim it depending on the shotgun and where it patterns. Thus my comparison to a revolver. The AR can be more complex in other ways, method of operation, cleaning, and perhaps not quite a robust in digesting all manner of loads compared to a pump that will handle low power to heavy loads, it is simpler in others, putting rounds on target, the reload, ect. So what is comes down is what you have more training/are more comfortable with in my mind. Both have put plenty of people in the ground, just need proper shot placement, and a proper load helps as well. Regardless which you choose though, you must train to be effective, I don't give a shit who you are. Train and make sure the platform is in proper working order. Here is where the AR comes out ahead in my mind, since I see a lot more people willing to run drills with and train with an AR over a 12 gauge pump, partly because of ammo costs and partly because they bitch about the recoil from the shotgun.
So to sum it up, partly personal preference and what you are more comfortable. This is of course everything being equal in that you are using quality loads in each and both platforms are reliable, properly set up, ect. Changes in this, from quality of platform to training to what you are willing to do, can skew my opinion to one or the other.
Solid info, thanks. I would rather put 7 or more 9mm holes in a bad guy all at once than hope I get lucky with a 5.56 at close range, which may just icepick him and nothing else. I carry 14 rounds in and/or on the shotgun, figure that should do the trick
Well, it also depends on the type of shotgun. A pump is very reliable, but not especially ideal when the adrenalin is overwhelming. So, maybe a semi auto shotgun, but then you have the problem of maneuverability in a home anyway. Shotguns tend to be longer and harder to get around doors and halls with. Then you still have the capacity issue. Sure you may have 7 in your shotgun, but I've got 30 in my AR before a reload. Also you need to be almost as accurate with a shotgun as an AR. Many think that a shot gun spreads way more than it does. There is no doubt that a shotgun with a buckshot load is more effective at stopping the threat with a single shot, but a round of M193 is not going to 'ice pick' someone and leave them to carry on as before. A high velocity round like the m193 will make a huge cavity as it passes through. So, even if it doesn't tumble, the pain and potential injury will likely be nearly incapacitating. Then there are always follow up shots.
I was taught to believe that a shotgun is superior to a carbine for HD, but I now believe that that is incorrect for most people. Most people will spend more time shooting their ARs than their shotguns, so the average shotgun HD shooter is less likely to be familiar enough with their shotgun to use it effectively under stress.
My HD weapons are pistol and AR. In fact, I'm thinking of trimming my HD shotgun collection.
BTW - If you have a shotgun and an AR. Make sure they are empty, then pretend moving around your house looking for an intruder. Or try getting into a defensive shooting position in your bedroom with a shotgun vs. an AR.
Thanks for taking the time to offer a very helpful and thoughtful reply.
I have taken now twice a tactical shotgun class and have really learned a lot about how to use it as a fighting tool, as opposed to shooting clay.
:)
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
Failure2Stop
09-20-14, 14:33
What's your time on both to achieve 100% hits inside a 3" circle, with nothing outside (0% escapement), in the dark, at 5 yards?
What's the same with a moving target?
At the end of the day, what you use is far less important than how well you employ it. I'll beat a motherf**ker to death with my bare hands if I have to, but that wouldn't be my first choice.
Holding it at the ready? Darn fast at five yards. I will time myself next time to be more precise. :)
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I'm pretty sure many bad guys have been taken down by a 5.56 at close range, so I don't buy that argument. I used to be in the Shotgun is the Best for HD camp, but after actually trying to clear and maneuver in the shoot house at our local range it is my third pick behind Carbine/SBR #1, and a handgun as #2. As many have mentioned, even with a cylinder choke the pattern does not open up enough to account for less accuracy at close range, and I am more accurate and faster at putting rounds on target with my carbine or handgun. Also try holding a cell phone and racking a shotgun, it just doesn't work.
#1 buck using the Flite Control wad probably produces a much more effective wound profile than a .556.
That said, a shotgun is probably going to be heavier, have more recoil, take more time to get follow up shots and carry less ammunition.
Everything is a trade off. Personally, my go-to long gun is a 300 BLK AR w/Barnes black tips, but in most cases the 870 with Flite Control would be fine.
In general, I feel like the AR gives you more capability if the number of assailants is larger.
The thing is tho, most threats are likely to be met with a handgun. If I have the perceived need for a long-gun, I suspect I'd want all the gun I can get.
-john
plouffedaddy
09-20-14, 16:32
Really depends on the shooter at the end of the day. Both will get the job done very well with proper ammo selection.
When I was single I had an 870 with 8 rounds of #4 buck at the ready but now that I'm married we have an AR with 75gr TAP as the primary HD long gun as a shotgun just isn't something my 120lb wife can effectively employ (at least not as well as an AR). I don't feel I've given up anything in terms of lethality FWIW.
What's your time on both to achieve 100% hits inside a 3" circle, with nothing outside (0% escapement), in the dark, at 5 yards?
What's the same with a moving target?
At the end of the day, what you use is far less important than how well you employ it. I'll beat a motherf**ker to death with my bare hands if I have to, but that wouldn't be my first choice.
This is exactly it - I've seen too many instances of people (even here) advising somebody who goes duck hunting and can run a 12ga like none other that 'an AR is better', which for that guy it's not. I suck at running shotguns, therefore I supplement pistols with short ARs.
There are a LOT of form factor effects that can really adjust usability, and that's a bit part of how I weight ability to run a weapon system; even with my pistol gripped youth stock on my 870 the limitation on running it in tight quarters is mostly me (but the 38"+ OAL doesn't help a ton).
A center of mass hit with a 12ga on anything without armor is better, but in the time I can personally make a hit with a 12ga platform I'm done with a pair and onto a failure drill with the AR platform I have far more familiarity with.
A62Rambler
09-20-14, 17:05
Ask all the questions of yourself not just the ones about ammo. Which is easier to use at night with a light? Which is easier to use while trying to dial 911 and talk to the dispatcher? Which do I shoot the most and train with the most? Which do I have the most training on? Which to I shoot the best? Which can my family use if I'm not home? Which has easier sights to use? Which is 100% reliable? Which is legal for my area? Which is the best choice for me and my unique circumstances? etc... It varies from person to person so I don't think there's a definitive answer for everyone. I own both. I keep a handgun close and a shotgun and AR hidden away but nearby. If I have to leave my house because of a natural disaster or railroad spill, the shotgun will be locked in the safe. My neighbor doesn't even own an AR but he's proficient with his shotgun. I think we both made the right choice for each of us.
Failure2Stop
09-20-14, 17:18
Holding it at the ready? Darn fast at five yards. I will time myself next time to be more precise. :)
Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
I think you're missing the point.
100% accountability.
What is faster, what gets you where you need to be easiest?
I really couldn't care less what you use.
Either one works well when you have prepared yourself and your guns to accomplish the task at hand. Most shotguns I see on the forums have too much crap on them IMO (but I guess many ARs do as well). I have my 870P system down to 4 round side saddle and Inforce WML on the forend at 9:00. I replaced the furniture with Magpul SGA stock and MOE forend and use a factory 2 round extension. I can attach a QD VCAS if desired (Magpul forward sling mount and SGA QD sling mount for stock) and configure it as single or two point.
I prefer to be proficient with either system and able to deploy both of them effectively. I don't think it has to be one over the other. If you like the shotgun though, I think you have to work a little harder initially to become proficient. I am looking forward to a Randy Cain Shotgun 1 class this coming December along with 6 friends.
My shotgun is currently the gun next to the bed. When my Mossy 590A1 14" SBS gets out of jail, it will take over for the 870P.
Shotgun
Harder to control.
Less rounds available (think multiple targets).
Most are not fitted with lights and they are a little harder to do so than an AR (think hitting what you can see/identify).
Slower follow up shots and potential for operator induced malfunction.
AR
Less recoil which translates into more accurate shot placement.
Much higher ammunition capacity without the need to reload (failure to stop or multiple attackers).
Much easier to outfit with a light.
Assuming built properly and maintained reduced chance of malfunctions when the SHTF.
The AR is superior IMO, but it doesn't render the shotgun ineffective by any means.
I thought we were supose to be hospitable, and pack some bug spray:haha:
The weapon closest to you when you need it, is the best one. All my training has been on rifle (AR&AK) and pistol platforms and what I'm the most comfortable with, but if the shotgun is the closest, the shotty is what their gonna get;). The weapon you have at hand (even if it is just your hands) is best weapon, a lil 22lr within arms reach trumps the baddest boomstick 15ft away when your face to face with bad guy. This kinda mimics what F2S said.... And don't forget about tactical bug spray, while your being hospitable.
I prefer a silenced SBR. I'll take anything that goes boom, including a flint lock musket with bayonet, over anything that doesn't go boom. I'll take non-booming ranged instruments, including an atlatl, over non-ranged instruments.
But as far as I can tell, taking everything into account for my set of uses, there's nothing better than a short and silenced AR in 5.56 or 300blk. A shotgun would be after a rifle for the reasons IG stated, plus less over penetration of 5.56 and better performance through body armor.
Shotgun
Harder to control.
Less rounds available (think multiple targets).
Most are not fitted with lights and they are a little harder to do so than an AR (think hitting what you can see/identify).
Slower follow up shots and potential for operator induced malfunction.
AR
Less recoil which translates into more accurate shot placement.
Much higher ammunition capacity without the need to reload (failure to stop or multiple attackers).
Much easier to outfit with a light.
Assuming built properly and maintained reduced chance of malfunctions when the SHTF.
Great post!
It's just easier to "run" an AR.
The shotgun's biggest advantage is probably cost.
For the average person with no training and who never will get training,the shotgun is a viable choice.Also,as mentioned by Andrewsky,the cost factor.Doing a room by room search with any firearm for the untrained person may not be the best option.
For the average person with no training and who never will get training,the shotgun is a viable choice.Also,as mentioned by Andrewsky,the cost factor.Doing a room by room search with any firearm for the untrained person may not be the best option.
You think a gun with more weight, more recoil, arguably a more complex manual of arms, less rounds for extra chances, and probably no red dot is an easier weapon to use?
Koshinn,I don't think that a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870 in 12 gauge is heavy.Nor do I believe recoil with the self defense loads out by Federal,etc is objectionable,if it is,as mentioned there is 20 gauge.I don't find the manual of arms for a shotgun for the average person hard to understand and carry out.Capacity,yes it's less.A red dot would be great but drives the cost up.Please understand,I'm not saying the shotgun is a better choice for the trained individual,i am saying the shotgun is a very viable choice for the average home owner with little or no training that just wants to protect their family.
A shotty is better than nothing. However.....
I choose, and use either a pistol or AR. One shot with each pull off the trigger.
Remember, you're accountable for every projectile.
Hopefully Rob Haught will add his perspective.
Armor penetration follow ups, and risk of short stroking are why the ar is next to the bed. Ar is versatile, shotgun is a niche weapon.
shotgun is a niche weapon.
No, it really isn't.
From the POV of MIL/LE use, sure. From a civilian's side, it's about as versatile a firearm a person can have.
No, it really isn't.
From the POV of MIL/LE use, sure. From a civilian's side, it's about as versatile a firearm a person can have.
I am not talking about using the gun for hunting purposes, as that was not what the OP was discussing. The shotgun is optimal for very few circumstances within the "HD" category, and I reference the many reasons listed above by F2S, as I share those views.
No, it really isn't.
From the POV of MIL/LE use, sure. From a civilian's side, it's about as versatile a firearm a person can have.
If you need to kill birds and people, yes, it's versatile. But the carbine has people killing covered on all fronts.
Check out this podcast, featuring M4C member Steve Fisher of Sentinel Concepts. Steve lays it out quite nicely.
http://ballisticradio.com/2014/08/11/home-defense-or-why-steve-fisher-thinks-the-internet-is-stupid-podcast-season-2-ballistic-radio-episode-74-august-10th-2014/
Leaveammoforme
09-21-14, 18:31
I've posted this video once before but I think it would fit in on this thread pretty good.
I personally use a handgun as my goto defense but I have a carbine for back up if need be.
For only 3 payments of $9.99 and one payment of ninetyninenightynine I can send you my 24 disc set on "offensive shotgun tactics for when toys are on the floor and you only have one arm available"
http://youtu.be/xb71xae53dk
I am not talking about using the gun for hunting purposes, as that was not what the OP was discussing. The shotgun is optimal for very few circumstances within the "HD" category, and I reference the many reasons listed above by F2S, as I share those views.
I'm not saying it's versatile for hunting purposes, I'm saying it's just a generally versatile fighting gun. Is it the best? No. But it can do more than just spread shot.
If you need to kill birds and people, yes, it's versatile. But the carbine has people killing covered on all fronts.
Note where I said earlier that the AR is a better HD firearm. My point isn't that the shotgun is a bird/people gun, I'm saying that it isn't a one-trick pony. It can be as effective at 100 yards as it is at 5 yards. I'm not making a point of it being more or less effective or easier/harder to train with than an AR... Only speaking to the platform itself.
I have been shooting rifles and shotguns for over 45 years and trained on defensive shotgun techniques over the past 34 years. A carbine is suitable for a home defense weapon, but I prefer a pump action shotgun.
There are a wide variety of multiple projectile cartridges available for the shotgun and it is relatively simple to use under stress. Recoil management is reasonable utilizing the correct techniques. Attaching a flashlight is easy with or without an aftermarket mount. Empty, a shotgun with a wood stock makes a fine club, like a M1 Garand or M-14.
Outside the house, when engaging targets beyond 30 meters, a carbine would be more suitable than a shotgun. Inside the house, a well trained person with either a shotgun or carbine can get the job done.
If you are much more proficient with a carbine than a shotgun, maintain a carbine for home defense. Pick what suites you best and train with it like your life depends on it, it does.
I've been reading this and pondering.
I don't have either readily available, instead relying on pistols with WML, the long guns are in the safes.
What definitely sways me to the rifle for HD is that pesky flight control wad. My shotguns all pattern with the reduced recoils loads really well, well enough that I would feel 'comfortable' taking a head shot at a hostage taker over one of my daughter's shoulders in any room of our house if need be. But I can't control where the wad goes.
With the AR, if you don't forget your offset, you don't have that problem.
I really like both, However I most often sit an FN 45 with Surefire by my bed.
Took my shotguns out last weekend, and the flight control is quite awesome. And would be thrilled with it, But my 11.5 suppressed reigns supreme.
I really like both, However I most often sit an FN 45 with Surefire by my bed.
Took my shotguns out last weekend, and the flight control is quite awesome. And would be thrilled with it, But my 11.5 suppressed reigns supreme.
Shotgun has 3 roles:
1. Bird hunting/Clays, etc.
2. Breaching/Specialty ammo, and
3. Redneck amusement/blasting fun.
There's nothing wrong with any of those 3.
Now if you have a solid carbine that you lock up at night and run a shotgun for defense, I suggest that you might be retarded from the neck up.
A shotgun falls short of a carbine in almost every attribute of a defensive weapon...
Recoil, Muzzle blast/flash, Capacity, precision shot ability, handling, etc.... And 9 pellets of 00 buck does NOT translate into 9 bullets from another firearm. It doesn't work that way.
Elsewhere I ventured to opine that I believe a shotgun is a better HD choice than an AR and was met with criticism from AR lovers.
I've done a lot of reading, research and study on this topic, but am I truly all wet? Is the AR a superior HD weapon?
Here I have in mind a scenario of a weapon used inside a house, not picking off incoming Zombies from a hundred yards out as they move in for the kill.
Thoughts??
Can you use it for HD? Yes. Is it the best choice? Really depends on your skill level/knowledge. HD (AKA Defensive Room Clearing) requires knowledge on how to clear your home by yourself. Most people can get room clearing training with a pistol and an AR, but it is hard to find a class that specializes in SG room clearing. I have such experience and have watched lots of KNOWLEDGEABLE SG shooters fail room clearing with said weapon (for a variety of reasons). As a SG owner (Benelli M4), I am of the opinion that IF you are going to use a SG for HD, it should be an auto loader. Why you ask? Because when people are surprised/scared, they typically short stroked the pump. Thusly causing all kinds of problems (to include disassembling of the 870 to fix it). With that said, are Auto Loading shotguns AS reliable as a quality AR or pistol? The answer is no, they are not.
Next issue is the length. They are long and again, without proper training, its hard to shorten this gun up so that the barrel does not lead you into every room.
Next issue is ammo selection. 00 buck? Slugs? Bird Shot? All have their issues from over penetration, accuracy to non-lethal. Hostage situations? Not going to work out well.
Next issue is practice. Most people are going to shoot and AR or pistol WAY more than a SG. The golden rule for personal defense (CCW or HD) is to choose a weapon that you are MOST knowledgeable and skilled with. For the majority of people, this leaves the SG out.
Last bit of wisdom. I have asked many of the worlds BEST firearms instructors where the SG sits in realm of HD options and they all say the same thing. It is in last place behind an AR and a pistol.
With that said, if you say that the SG is for you then great, just make sure you get LOTS of training, realize its limitations and practice with it!
C4
For the average person with no training and who never will get training,the shotgun is a viable choice.Also,as mentioned by Andrewsky,the cost factor.Doing a room by room search with any firearm for the untrained person may not be the best option.
I have seen people miss targets with a SG all day long. Up close, a SG shoots a tight group. So it is just as easy to miss with a SG as any other weapon inside your home.
C4
Everyone seems to have hit the reasons why the AR is superior.
The way I see it:
5.56 Carbine > Shotgun > Pistol caliber carbine > PDW (4.6 or 5.7x28) > Handgun
I only put the 4.6/5.7 crappy calibers ahead of handguns because, being shouldered and having optics, they are easier to get hits and hold more ammo than handguns.
I left out 7.62, 6.8, and 300BLK because they are either too much for traditional HD, or they are still unproven due to a lack of available data. That said, I'd likely put all 3 ahead of the shotgun.
I have seen people miss targets with a SG all day long. Up close, a SG shoots a tight group. So it is just as easy to miss with a SG as any other weapon inside your home.
C4
A shotgun will also put a smaller hole in someone at close distance than most people expect.
After attending a few autopsies of gunshot wound recipients, I have formed a strong opinion about choice of defensive weapons. Internal damage from a rifle or shotgun wound is devastating. They are both much better than a handgun for disrupting internal organs and shocking the nervous system.
No, it really isn't.
From the POV of MIL/LE use, sure. From a civilian's side, it's about as versatile a firearm a person can have.
As a lethal weapon for self defense I agree it's a niche weapon. The semi-auto rifle is better for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.
Police and military firing door breachers, less lethal munitions yes it's very versatile. As a hunting weapon the shotgun is also very versatile.
It's not my first choice for HD. As for pump-action shotguns for HD no way. It's 2014, with all the advancements in technology I should not have to shuck my own shells and risk screwing it up. If I had to use a shotgun for HD it would be a semi-auto if I was staying put. If I had to move through rooms with a shotgun I'd want something much shorter and one handed like a double barrel. (As long as I had a handgun on me, too)
Otherwise I prefer a rifle over a shotgun for HD. For moving through rooms I'd prefer a bullpup rifle, short-barreled rifle, or a pistol.
Just my preference, I realize shotguns have ended a lot of lives.
A smart person will not go room to room unless necessary. If I had to do so, I would just as easily be able to do it with an AR (for example) which can be fired with one hand and supported under the arm. And it does not require a 2nd arm/hand to manipulate anything.
For the average person with no training and who never will get training,the shotgun is a viable choice.Also,as mentioned by Andrewsky,the cost factor.Doing a room by room search with any firearm for the untrained person may not be the best option.
A shotgun will also put a smaller hole in someone at close distance than most people expect.
After attending a few autopsies of gunshot wound recipients, I have formed a strong opinion about choice of defensive weapons. Internal damage from a rifle or shotgun wound is devastating. They are both much better than a handgun for disrupting internal organs and shocking the nervous system.
Even bird shot is TIGHT at close range. Which was my point about still having to aim it.
Yes the damage in immense (no doubt). Hackathorn told me that his HD weapon of choice is a HG. The reason being that it is by far the easiest to maneuver in tight spaces, easier to hide (and or lock up and get to) and can be fitted with a light and a laser easily.
For me, I have young children. So I primarily have HG's locked up around in the house so that I can be in any room have an option.
C4
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people who actually claim you "don't have to aim a shotgun" to be effective with in a HD situation. If you try to correct them, you get a bunch of people shooting at clay explaining how they don't aim it they just do their voodoo magic.
They have a hard time understanding deploying a shotgun within a range of, say, thirty feet at a human being is NOT the same as shooting at clays.
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people who actually claim you "don't have to aim a shotgun" to be effective with in a HD situation.
That is an old urban myth which refuses to die.
Another myth is that the sound of chambering a round will scare someone and they will run out of the house. I know one homeowner who knows for a fact the second myth is B.S.
I keep my shotgun ready with a full mag, open/empty chamber, hammer down, but not so that I can make "the scary noise" but so I can throw a slug in first if I determine it will be needed. Also, a safer way to keep a shotgun at the ready, IMHO.
Moose-Knuckle
09-23-14, 16:48
They are both tools in the tool box. To many guys get bent around the axle and asign some misplaced emotion to "their choice" be it carbine vs. shotgun or Ford vs. Chevy.
Guy's like Rob Haught and the late Louis Awerbuck preferred shotguns. That's not to say shotguns are right for everyone but use what you are confident with so long as you have the skillset. I use to know a guy who was a Special Forces Vietnam Veteran, he used to say something along the lines "that a shot from a rifle to a leg is a wound and a shot from a shotgun to a leg is an amputation". To each their own.
One thing I do like about shotguns is that if the need arises with the right slug you can defeat engine blocks and wheel wells.
superr.stu
09-23-14, 18:24
About the only role a "fighting" shotgun plays for me is as a truck gun during certain times of the year when deer removal permits kick in at work. I can keep one long gun in the truck instead of a shotgun for deer, and a carbine for everything else. Around the home though I would much rather use a shorter, lighter, faster, more practiced pistol or AR. Also I have much greater confidence in my wife being able to run an AR than I do her running an 12ga.
I keep my shotgun ready with a full mag, open/empty chamber, hammer down, but not so that I can make "the scary noise" but so I can throw a slug in first if I determine it will be needed. Also, a safer way to keep a shotgun at the ready, IMHO.
Wouldn't leaving a space in the mag tube be faster? you punch in the slug and cycle, chambering the slug. From what you've described you are going to have to open the action, remove the fed round from the receiver and then combat load a slug. My way seems a lot quicker - the disadvantage being you lose one round capacity if you don't need the slug.
In order to do a hasty slug select we train officers to chamber the buck and not top off the mag tube. That way they can load a slug into the tube, eject the buck and chamber a slug, then load another slug into the tube. Even though you dump a buck round, it is the same as leaving a space in the mag tube to slip in a slug. Maybe I just didn't read what you wrote correctly. :)
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work.
Shotgun has 3 roles:
1. Bird hunting/Clays, etc.
2. Breaching/Specialty ammo, and
3. Redneck amusement/blasting fun.
There's nothing wrong with any of those 3.
Now if you have a solid carbine that you lock up at night and run a shotgun for defense, I suggest that you might be retarded from the neck up.
A shotgun falls short of a carbine in almost every attribute of a defensive weapon...
Recoil, Muzzle blast/flash, Capacity, precision shot ability, handling, etc.... And 9 pellets of 00 buck does NOT translate into 9 bullets from another firearm. It doesn't work that way.
I agree with this 1000%
Take a shotgun to a room clearing course or a an IDPA type carbine match and see how worthless it is after the first few seconds.
There's no good way to mount a light on one and they're extremely slow and cumbersome to use.
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work.
I wasn't sure if I understood. If the action is open and to the rear, the hammer isn't down, it is cocked, so that kind of confused me. Therefore I thought you meant 1) action closed; 2) fired on an empty chamber (hammer down) by open/empty chamber.
Pretty damn confusing sometimes communicating by keyboard, ain't it?
wildcard600
09-25-14, 11:34
none of the suggestions are good options.
best bet is to come at them naked, smeared in feces, screaming at the top of your lungs while waving your wang at them.
Double barrel shotgun of course.
Because you know...a warning shot (or the racking/chambering sound) is enough to scare the bad guys away. :rolleyes:
A lot of posters here presume everyone has an AR. Some of us don't and will use what we do have. I chose an 870 for HD because it's what I could afford and if faced with home invaders I'll deal with them from one room. I have a handgun in .45 acp that backs up the 870 in the same room. I practice with both on a regular basis. I run thru drills simulating multiple targets at various distances from 7 yards to 20 yards with both guns used in the drills. I've shot AR types but my eyes have made them difficult to shoot accurately so I use those with which l'm accurate.
I don't think anyone presumes anything. I can't expect you to use an AR if you don't have one, can I? So obviously this discussion is geared towards this that have. I would take my G17 with Surefire X300 and Gold Dot +Ps over a shotgun. That's just me.
A lot of posters here presume everyone has an AR. Some of us don't and will use what we do have. I chose an 870 for HD because it's what I could afford and if faced with home invaders I'll deal with them from one room. I have a handgun in .45 acp that backs up the 870 in the same room. I practice with both on a regular basis. I run thru drills simulating multiple targets at various distances from 7 yards to 20 yards with both guns used in the drills. I've shot AR types but my eyes have made them difficult to shoot accurately so I use those with which l'm accurate.
A lot of posters here presume everyone has an AR. Some of us don't and will use what we do have. I chose an 870 for HD because it's what I could afford and if faced with home invaders I'll deal with them from one room. I have a handgun in .45 acp that backs up the 870 in the same room. I practice with both on a regular basis. I run thru drills simulating multiple targets at various distances from 7 yards to 20 yards with both guns used in the drills. I've shot AR types but my eyes have made them difficult to shoot accurately so I use those with which l'm accurate.
> on m4carbine.net
> doesn't have an AR
> doesn't plan on getting an AR
> joins to make this one post about not owning an AR
> logic
Also, you have bad eyes but pistols (with iron sights) and shotguns (with iron sights) are somehow harder to shoot accurately than an AR with a red dot? That makes no sense.
A lot of posters here presume everyone has an AR. Some of us don't and will use what we do have.
... and for them this discussion isn't relevant until they're looking at buying an AR... in which case I can say confidently that unless the individual in question if very well versed in the manual of arms for an 870/590/other AND have a light for that shotgun that the AR with WML/RDS is going to be a ton better in the long gun department, and regardless of which option a handgun WITH A LIGHT is still necessary. The fact that you practice running both of your weapon systems puts you WAY ahead of the curve, though I wouldn't recommend your setup to somebody who is likely to just load up the guns and then maybe give them an annual cleaning. That said, if you get the chance start working with running a good light with both of those setups (since statistically the vast majority of HD type events are going to go down at night).
A 12ga isn't the worst option for home defense (it's still a firearm, it can still be equipped with a flashlight); it's just not the best tool available...
delford,welcome to the forum.One might think initially that M4C is AR-centric but there's so much more to the forums.I think its very commendable that you know the parameters of what you want and more important,what you need.
A lot of posters here presume everyone has an AR. Some of us don't and will use what we do have. I chose an 870 for HD because it's what I could afford and if faced with home invaders I'll deal with them from one room. I have a handgun in .45 acp that backs up the 870 in the same room. I practice with both on a regular basis. I run thru drills simulating multiple targets at various distances from 7 yards to 20 yards with both guns used in the drills. I've shot AR types but my eyes have made them difficult to shoot accurately so I use those with which l'm accurate.
An 870 is a fine shotgun in my opinion. I picked up a police surplus 870 with 18" barrel from a firearm distributor years ago. You don't have to worry about which rounds will and will not cycle a semi-automatic action when selecting ammunition. If you want to use light loads to start training your spouse, the 870 will digest them and spit out the empty hulls.
If and when you can afford it, I would suggest picking up an extended magazine tube. Installation is simple and you can increase magazine capacity by 2 or 3 rounds depending on which one you purchase. An elastic shotgun shell holder that fits on the buttstock will give you access to another 5 rounds. I place 2 sided tape between the shell holder and the right side of the stock to keep the shell holder from slipping around. If you don't care about the appearance of your shotgun stock, you can use staples or thumbtacks to keep it from slipping around.
I purchased a flashlight mount that attaches to the extended magazine tube from Brownells several years ago. It works well with the Insight Technologies M3 light, which can be moved back and forth between a Glock 22 and my 870. Whether you want to permanently mount a flashlight or make it easily detachable, you should be able to come up with a mount for well under $50. If you are really strapped for cash, duct tape or zip ties can be used to attach a light.
Welcome to M4carbine.net. If and when you purchase an AR, you will find a great deal of useful information about maintenance, troubleshooting and reloading on this website.
Thanks to all for a warm welcome :) I've been visiting the net for a while and realized I hadn't joined so I did. There's a lot of useful and helpful information here. A special thanks to those who responded with good advice. I'll be getting a good flashlight to attach to the 870 and a shellholder. I do have the extender - I was able to buy the SG used from my LGS and I doubt it had been used to actually shoot. I've oiled/WD40'd it and put several hundred rounds thru it so it is much smoother. My lens replacement cataract surgery has changed my dominance from left to right somehow. With at least monthly practice on the family farm in the next county I've improved my skills by running thru the drills a shooter friend helped me with. Who knows, I may even end up with an AR :)
> on m4carbine.net
> doesn't have an AR
> doesn't plan on getting an AR
> joins to make this one post about not owning an AR
> logic
Also, you have bad eyes but pistols (with iron sights) and shotguns (with iron sights) are somehow harder to shoot accurately than an AR with a red dot? That makes no sense.
Did we really have to go there? Only four sub-forums are AR specific, shall we do away with all the rest just for you?
With at least monthly practice on the family farm in the next county I've improved my skills by running thru the drills a shooter friend helped me with. Who knows, I may even end up with an AR :)
... and that's the difference. I have my 870 kitted up with the extended magazine (flush with the 18.5" barrel), the high end Surefire foreend, and the Speedfeed 4S Youth LOP pistol grip stock - that's as dialed as I can get an HD shotgun, and it's great except for the fact that I really suck at running that setup compared to other platforms (arguable with that parts setup it's the best thing for the money, but for me and most users it's utility behind just getting a G19, X300, and then practicing with that setup).
You don't need to go super pricey on the extender - I got the stock Express 7+1 18" unit as the base for mine, back when Remmy made and sold that as the parkerized non-maritime clone of the Marine Magnum, so even that cheap extender was way more than adequate for my uses... I do need to look into shell holder arrangements for mine, but the simple answer is that I'm so retarded at running that thing compared to my double stamp 30" OAL Suppressed 5.56 SBR that I've relegated a perfectly good shotgun to a range toy right now.
Just be aware that if you have access to some decent long range and the budget to get a quality AR, the stupid things are addictive. Red dot optics make eye dominance issues a TON better (and good 2MOA units are good for accuracy out to 300yd really), so realize that around triple the cost of a good 870 setup you can have an AR that is awesome on a different level.
Back to the caliber specific discussion, there is a bit of merit to considering where the H in HD is located - suburbs overpenetration is at least an outside consideration - out in the country where nobody else lives within a stone's throw it's different (dependent on occupant count/age).
I'm still a huge fan of semiautomatic for close range fighting tools, but T2C brings up a great point of verifying which loads run properly in a semi setup (whereas I can run LV 00 Buck through a pump without worrying about that).
Originally Posted by ptmccain
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work
I wasn't sure if I understood. If the action is open and to the rear, the hammer isn't down, it is cocked, so that kind of confused me. Therefore I thought you meant 1) action closed; 2) fired on an empty chamber (hammer down) by open/empty chamber.
Pretty damn confusing sometimes communicating by keyboard, ain't it?
I've been thinking about this since you posted it and now believe maybe I wasn't direct enough. I don't understand how you do that - on any pump action shotgun that I've serviced or trained with, the action is cocked by bring the action to the rear, therefore if the action is open, the hammer is not down in the normal parlance.
Additionally, most shotguns are made to be loaded with the action closed, aside from models such as the Benelli Nova. If you bring the action to the rear another round will be feed onto the shell carrier. While it easy to remove the shell from the receiver, neither the Remington or Mossberg is designed to be magazine loaded with the action open. With the Remington, you have to really aim the shell into the tube, with the Mossberg you have the shell carrier in the way, it will not pivot out of the way as the Remington does. I have never explored loading a round into the Mossberg's mag tube through the receiver over the shell carrier; nor have I worked with the Mossberg on closing the action just enough to raise the shell carrier to load an additional shell into the tube. On the Remington you could also stick your thumb or finger up into the loading port, press in and prevent the shell from feeding as you brought the action to the rear.
All of these actions are not IAW the 'normal' manual of arms with any of these shotguns, so it is not as simple as you made it out to be.
I began my career in training .mil personnel in shotgun usage in 1975 while the training NCO for a Marine Barracks who was tasked with teaching pistol, M-14 (new boots had trained on the M16) and shotgun; I attended my first LE course in 1980 and in the ensuing 35 years became the primary shotgun instructor at our Academy. During that time I've attended numerous LE specific shotgun courses (instructor level). I run several thousand rounds a year through shotguns, about a quarter of it buck and slug.
I've never heard anyone doing what you describe, but I'm open to learn.
Did we really have to go there? Only four sub-forums are AR specific, shall we do away with all the rest just for you?
It's like buying playboy only for the articles. Sure you could... But you're missing the point.
Originally Posted by ptmccain
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work
I've been thinking about this since you posted it and now believe maybe I wasn't direct enough. I don't understand how you do that - on any pump action shotgun that I've serviced or trained with, the action is cocked by bring the action to the rear, therefore if the action is open, the hammer is not down in the normal parlance.
Additionally, most shotguns are made to be loaded with the action closed, aside from models such as the Benelli Nova. If you bring the action to the rear another round will be feed onto the shell carrier. While it easy to remove the shell from the receiver, neither the Remington or Mossberg is designed to be magazine loaded with the action open. With the Remington, you have to really aim the shell into the tube, with the Mossberg you have the shell carrier in the way, it will not pivot out of the way as the Remington does. I have never explored loading a round into the Mossberg's mag tube through the receiver over the shell carrier; nor have I worked with the Mossberg on closing the action just enough to raise the shell carrier to load an additional shell into the tube. On the Remington you could also stick your thumb or finger up into the loading port, press in and prevent the shell from feeding as you brought the action to the rear.
All of these actions are not IAW the 'normal' manual of arms with any of these shotguns, so it is not as simple as you made it out to be.
I began my career in training .mil personnel in shotgun usage in 1975 while the training NCO for a Marine Barracks who was tasked with teaching pistol, M-14 (new boots had trained on the M16) and shotgun; I attended my first LE course in 1980 and in the ensuing 35 years became the primary shotgun instructor at our Academy. During that time I've attended numerous LE specific shotgun courses (instructor level). I run several thousand rounds a year through shotguns, about a quarter of it buck and slug.
I've never heard anyone doing what you describe, but I'm open to learn.
I think he means that with a full mag-tube, and an empty chamber, with the action open... he can "combat-reload" through the ejection port with a slug if needed, or simply double-rack the action to grab the first round out of the tube.
I've always understood this to be commonly called "crusier-ready"
I think the confusing part, is when he said "hammer down" which, you are correct, isn't possible with a pump , if the action is open (at least not one I've ever seen). Although you would probably have a dead trigger... which I suppose could be misinterpreted as a hammer-down condition...
In any case, his method would get the slug into the chamber faster, assuming the slug was easily at hand. (I can port-load quicker than I can tube load and stroke) It mostly comes down to wanting it to be laying around with a round in the chamber or not... Depending on the family/household situation, it may be safer.
I think he means that with a full mag-tube, and an empty chamber, with the action open... he can "combat-reload" through the ejection port with a slug if needed, or simply double-rack the action to grab the first round out of the tube.
I've always understood this to be commonly called "crusier-ready"
I think the confusing part, is when he said "hammer down" which, you are correct, isn't possible with a pump , if the action is open (at least not one I've ever seen). Although you would probably have a dead trigger... which I suppose could be misinterpreted as a hammer-down condition...
In any case, his method would get the slug into the chamber faster, assuming the slug was easily at hand. (I can port-load quicker than I can tube load and stroke) It mostly comes down to wanting it to be laying around with a round in the chamber or not... Depending on the family/household situation, it may be safer.
Correct, this is what I'm talking about. I do this for safety and for the option of getting a slug in first.
I do not subscribe to the "scare them away with racking a round into a shotgun" theory.
I think he means that with a full mag-tube, and an empty chamber, with the action open... he can "combat-reload" through the ejection port with a slug if needed, or simply double-rack the action to grab the first round out of the tube.
I've always understood this to be commonly called "crusier-ready"
I think the confusing part, is when he said "hammer down" which, you are correct, isn't possible with a pump , if the action is open (at least not one I've ever seen). Although you would probably have a dead trigger... which I suppose could be misinterpreted as a hammer-down condition...
In any case, his method would get the slug into the chamber faster, assuming the slug was easily at hand. (I can port-load quicker than I can tube load and stroke) It mostly comes down to wanting it to be laying around with a round in the chamber or not... Depending on the family/household situation, it may be safer.
Cruiser ready as most do it: mag tube loaded, chamber empty, action locked, safety engaged (or disengaged).
Some folks do it: mag tube loaded, action unlocked (hammer dropped on an empty chamber), safety disengaged.
There is not a 'universal' way to do it. Perhaps we need to verify 'action open' because in any common pump action shotgun, if the mag tube is loaded and you bring the action to the rear, a round will feed from the mag tube. You then have to remove it from the receiver. This leaves you with a less than full mag tube. He stated mag tube full.
If the action is unlocked and closed and you bring the action to the rear, a round feeds onto the shell lift/carrier and if you combat load a slug on top of it the action won't close.
In that case the select-slug drill is: action to the rear, roll the weapon to the side allowing the fed round to fall from the receiver and combat load the slug.
This is the reason that most LE users that have slugs available leave an open spot in the mag tube after they chamber a round, it gives them the option of shoving a slug into the mag tube and chambering the slug while cycling the action.
On the clock, starting with the slug in the carrier (sidesaddle, butt mounted, belt holder), most officers are quicker getting the slug and shoving it into the mag tube, cycling and firing than they are in getting the slug, bringing the action to the rear, rolling the buck out of the receiver, combat loading the slug and firing.
Granted, this is not the same situation that he described, it is just how LE is trained to accomplish the task. Maybe he should make a video on how he does it, because, unless he is going through all the gymnastics I outlined in post #70, I'm throwing the BS flag.
Originally Posted by ptmccain
26 Inf, I leave the action open, ready to "combat load" a slug, or whatever, and I'll have six in my mag tube afterwards. Your method would appear to take a tad more work
I've been thinking about this since you posted it and now believe maybe I wasn't direct enough. I don't understand how you do that - on any pump action shotgun that I've serviced or trained with, the action is cocked by bring the action to the rear, therefore if the action is open, the hammer is not down in the normal parlance.
......................... While it easy to remove the shell from the receiver, neither the Remington or Mossberg is designed to be magazine loaded with the action open. With the Remington, you have to really aim the shell into the tube, with the Mossberg you have the shell carrier in the way, it will not pivot out of the way as the Remington does. I have never explored loading a round into the Mossberg's mag tube through the receiver over the shell carrier; nor have I worked with the Mossberg on closing the action just enough to raise the shell carrier to load an additional shell into the tube. On the Remington you could also stick your thumb or finger up into the loading port, press in and prevent the shell from feeding as you brought the action to the rear.
All of these actions are not IAW the 'normal' manual of arms with any of these shotguns, so it is not as simple as you made it out to be..........................
I've never heard anyone doing what you describe, but I'm open to learn.
Like you, I was curious and I am also open to learning. I tried it and found out very quickly that loading the 870 magazine with the action open is very difficult, as you described. The only way I could see to do this easily would be to fully load the tube, open the action (and leave it open), remove the shell that dropped onto the carrier and load that last single round back into the tube (which is not easy).
I see no benefit to this method, and actually would recommend against it. Besides leaving the action open for possible contamination with dust (or who knows what to possibly jamb the action), as well as leaving the hammer cocked, this method REQUIRES a shell to be manually loaded through the port as an initial action. As you pointed out, the OPs recommendation is not a standard in the operation of a pump shotgun.
Since an 870 is a gun I would go for in the middle of the night, relearning a manual of arms that goes against the way I have shot pump guns for many years is a NO GO for me. With this method, running the action forward without port loading leaves the chamber empty. I see this as being different from combat loading once the gun runs dry, but that's just me. When I deploy my loaded gun and I run the slide forward, I want it to chamber a round without thinking about it. Under stress, I think it would be very easy to run the slide without port loading and end up with an empty chamber. "Double pumping" requires pressing the slide release to run the slide again. Adding the need to think about running the gun and a fine motor skill like finding the slide release when deploying the shotgun is not good IMO.
Since this gun is for my home, I am fully confident that a first round of 00 buck flite control wad ammo is the correct choice and don't forsee that I will ever need a slug as the first round. IF I need a slug, it will not be until the threat is assessed. Inside my house, 00 rules. If for some unlikely reason I were to exit the home, I have time to chamber a slug.
Obviously, to each his own, but I believe this is a bad recommendation for the average individual who may choose a pump as a go to HD gun.
Correct, this is what I'm talking about. I do this for safety and for the option of getting a slug in first.
I do not subscribe to the "scare them away with racking a round into a shotgun" theory.
What criteria do you use to determine Slug vs Buck shot?
SpyderMan2k4
09-29-14, 19:06
I can't help but think the pros of that method don't outweigh the cons. Leaving the action open and empty to allow "faster" loading of a slug implies a sense of urgency (because in the event a slug is needed right off the bat, too much time would be spent doing a standard slug changeover.)
I think if there is that much urgency in getting the gun in the fight, I'd rather get it on the fight immediately, even with buck shot, even if a slug would be better, and change over when opportunity allowed. But that's just me.
Slugs for HD? Sounds serious... :D
What criteria do you use to determine Slug vs Buck shot?
(hardened) slugs for shooting through barriers, #1 buck with Flite Control wad otherwise.
-john
Leaveammoforme
09-30-14, 00:19
Slugs for HD? Sounds serious... :D
What criteria do you use to determine Slug vs Buck shot?
When the RO or MD gives the stage briefing, duh. Then you just repeat it in your head. For example: Slug, slug, buck, buck ,buck, slug, ninja roll, buck, buck, buck, buck.
On a serious note, The only time I would ever port load a shotgun is if the magazine was empty. That gets the shotgun up and running then you load or top off mag as time and cover permit. I personally see no use for slugs in a HD situation. I would not be chasing someone with a shotgun in my boxers while fumbling 2 different types of ammo. I also see a shotgun as a defensive weapon. I will not be on offense with it. If all you have is a shotgun, don't trick yourself into thinking you are gonna shoot an engine block 75 yards away as they speed away with your blender. A shotgun is like any other weapon on a empty chamber, worthless unless you have the element of surprise and cool nerves.
Like you, I was curious and I am also open to learning. I tried it and found out very quickly that loading the 870 magazine with the action open is very difficult, as you described. The only way I could see to do this easily would be to fully load the tube, open the action (and leave it open), remove the shell that dropped onto the carrier and load that last single round back into the tube (which is not easy).
.
Another way of running that with an 870 (not sure about a mossy) if you half-stroke the action, then use your thumb to push the shell back into the tube, before it drops onto the elevator, you can finish opening the action, with a full tube and an empty/open chamber.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't MY plan. (I'm much more comfortable / competent with a pistol) But it can be done.
SpyderMan2k4
09-30-14, 07:28
Another way of running that with an 870 (not sure about a mossy) if you half-stroke the action, then use your thumb to push the shell back into the tube, before it drops onto the elevator, you can finish opening the action, with a full tube and an empty/open chamber.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't MY plan. (I'm much more comfortable / competent with a pistol) But it can be done.
You can accomplish the same thing with a Mossberg but it's s little tougher. Barely open the action (probably quarter stroke), then push the shell in the tube in and hold it in while opening the action until the elevator is all the way down. If you do it too harshly or quickly you may pinch your thumb since it pretty much has to make contact with the elevator.
Another way of running that with an 870 (not sure about a mossy) if you half-stroke the action, then use your thumb to push the shell back into the tube, before it drops onto the elevator, you can finish opening the action, with a full tube and an empty/open chamber.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't MY plan. (I'm much more comfortable / competent with a pistol) But it can be done.
Yes, I forgot about that. Either way, using that technique or reloading the shell the difficult way to keep the action open and empty is not a method I would use my 870. Thanks.
You think a slug might break bones with a guy wearing a vest or plate? Can somebody throw on a plate and let their buddy hit them up. Don't forget to make a video!
I'm just going Flight control. That stuff impressed me beyond measure.
I'm just going Flight control. That stuff impressed me beyond measure.
We needed it in Nam!
When the RO or MD gives the stage briefing, duh. Then you just repeat it in your head. For example: Slug, slug, buck, buck ,buck, slug, ninja roll, buck, buck, buck, buck.
On a serious note, The only time I would ever port load a shotgun is if the magazine was empty. That gets the shotgun up and running then you load or top off mag as time and cover permit. I personally see no use for slugs in a HD situation. I would not be chasing someone with a shotgun in my boxers while fumbling 2 different types of ammo. I also see a shotgun as a defensive weapon. I will not be on offense with it. If all you have is a shotgun, don't trick yourself into thinking you are gonna shoot an engine block 75 yards away as they speed away with your blender. A shotgun is like any other weapon on a empty chamber, worthless unless you have the element of surprise and cool nerves.
Makes sense.
I did a 3Gun stage with 6 targets that were about 35yards that required one slug each. Not fun on the recoil, but the slug is accurate enough and still deadly. On the range its fine, for HD, I stick with 00.
Not heresy.
I keep my ARs unloaded and locked in a safe. The mags are out in the garage.
I keep a 18" pump shotgun at the ready, for urban home defense.
I keep my AR loaded, one in the chamber, with a mag full of Winchester 64gr powerpoints.
Not heresy.
I keep my ARs unloaded and locked in a safe. The mags are out in the garage.
I keep a 18" pump shotgun at the ready, for urban home defense.
Not heresy.
I keep my ARs unloaded and locked in a safe. The mags are out in the garage.
I keep a 18" pump shotgun at the ready, for urban home defense.
Why in the garage?
I have Ar's, a Rem 870 tactical 18.5 barrel, and a M&P 9mm (soon to have a x300/U on it!
I feel the pistol is better in my situation, have to go grab and carry my 8 month old son into out room.
If you are going to be sitting in a barricaded room, ready for an attack, I would say the AR or Shotgun would work no problem.
IF someone is in the house, I am more then likely not going to go look for them, as long as the family is safe.
ChrisCross
10-20-14, 20:19
Depending on your location shotguns might be more "acceptable" to the local establishment.
If that doesn't matter then whichever you shoot better at HD distances.... that's your answer.
Why in the garage?
Why do I keep the AR mags in the garage? Space is at a premium in the house. The ARs are locked in a safe in the house, the AR mags and ammo are out in the garage.
The Gauge is at the ready, for when the door goes Crunch at two a.m. and the thugs go marching in.
SuaSponte175
10-25-14, 16:23
Depending on your location shotguns might be more "acceptable" to the local establishment.
If that doesn't matter then whichever you shoot better at HD distances.... that's your answer.
Could have said it better myself brother.
I don't understand how someone can shoot a shotgun better than an ar unless they've never touched one before.
Why do I keep the AR mags in the garage? Space is at a premium in the house. The ARs are locked in a safe in the house, the AR mags and ammo are out in the garage.
The Gauge is at the ready, for when the door goes Crunch at two a.m. and the thugs go marching in.
Huh? How much space could ar mags take up? Am I missing something?
SeriousStudent
10-26-14, 00:06
I'm going to go ahead and put this one to bed. We have had a lot of threads in the past discussing the shotgun and it's role in home defense, along with the associated pro's and cons. I think folks have made up their minds. The OP is not going to be back to discuss this, either.
Thanks.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.