View Full Version : Strong hand thumb placement on Glock's - possible effect on muzzle pointing left...
Hi guys,
Naturally this will vary based on your hand/finger size but I just noticed this and wanted to bring up for discussion.
I'm right handed and I shoot with the thumbs forward modern grip.
Typically I would make the effort to align my master hand thumb as parallel to the bore as possible and of course on top of my support hand. My thumb would be resting on the gun at the rear, juts behind the slide release lever.
But recently I noticed that doing this would push my muzzle left since I was applying a right pushing force to the rear of the gun.
I made the change now to just let my master thumb rest naturally at an angle (like this \I) on my support hand instead of parallel to and touching the gun (like this |I). Removing this thumb contact has eliminated the muzzle shift. The (I) is the gun and (\) and (|) are my thumb.
My old grip never made difference when shooting slowly for groups since I could fine-tune the sight picture given the time I had, but I did shoot left under speed.
I haven't had much time to shoot with my new grip - but it seems like it would help with shooting fast since I would eliminate one obvious muscle force that acst to push the muzzle left when I'm only taking the time to get a fast sigh picture under rapid fire. I'm guessing this will be more repeatable and consistent since I have to do one less thing or exert one less force with each shot.
Any thoughts on this?
My groups used to string horizontally, so I did some research on grip. I found that some very high-level shooters keep the thumb on the frame while other very high-level shooters let it stick out into space. I tried having my thumb out in space and the stringing stopped, so I stuck with it.
Okie John
People have been trying to figure out how to shoot those things straight for almost 30 years!
I'm kidding, but whatever works for you is what you should do.
I used lots of trigger finger and a steady yank. Worked ok for me.
People have been trying to figure out how to shoot those things straight for almost 30 years!
I'm kidding, but whatever works for you is what you should do.
I used lots of trigger finger and a steady yank. Worked ok for me.
Lol. :lol::lol:
Seems that way sometimes doesn't it?
That said, I've been told, and seen a number of different grip/holds that work for this person or that. If it works use it.
Try pressing the frame with your support thumb, not too hard but firm - do this is the small space just forward of the take down lever on the frame if it's a Glock. This should help you apply counter torque from your trigger finger [as it is creating torque on the gun - left if you're a right hand shooter and right if you're a lefty] and is normally more apparent when shooting fast as trigger discipline suffers slightly at speed. Your strong hand should be as high as possible on the gun for leverage with thumb also applying some counter torque into the gun. Kind of like a light squeeze inward. I credit it to Frank Proctor, some may have done it before, but none have explained as simple as he has. YMMV.
Apex pointed out WHY you're shooting left. I disagree with applying counter pressure with the off hand thumb but he is spot on with his assessment. The reason being, you wont always have two hands on the gun so relying on the support hand to correct a trigger control issue is a no go in my book.
Do this:
Close your hand into a fist slowly as though you're going to grab a bottle of beer.
Notice how your thumb knuckle moves inward? When you bear down on the grip tang of the pistol, it is VERY easy for that thumb knuckle to influence your trigger press. To alleviate this issue, you really need to work on increasing grip pressure with your support hand so that your strong hand is free to operate with the trigger without clenching the entire hand.
My groups used to string horizontally, so I did some research on grip. I found that some very high-level shooters keep the thumb on the frame while other very high-level shooters let it stick out into space. I tried having my thumb out in space and the stringing stopped, so I stuck with it.
Okie John
Which thumb? Strong side?
Strong side thumb on frame (assuming you have a high grip) can and will trigger the slide lock. I'll have it happen to me on occasion if I don't roll my thumb out enough.
Try pressing the frame with your support thumb, not too hard but firm - do this is the small space just forward of the take down lever on the frame if it's a Glock. This should help you apply counter torque from your trigger finger [as it is creating torque on the gun - left if you're a right hand shooter and right if you're a lefty] and is normally more apparent when shooting fast as trigger discipline suffers slightly at speed. Your strong hand should be as high as possible on the gun for leverage with thumb also applying some counter torque into the gun. Kind of like a light squeeze inward. I credit it to Frank Proctor, some may have done it before, but none have explained as simple as he has. YMMV.
Hack calls this the "band-aid method". Yes it works, but it will fail you SHO and WHO.
Gotta burn reps dry firing and doing the 200.
Here is something I have taught a considerable number of people with a great deal of success. This is from the lecture we do on gripping a pistol.
1) A majority of your gripping pressure should be forward and aft. There should not be much side pressure applied with the palms. Grip the pistol high with the strong hand and press the fingers of the support hand against the fingers of the strong hand on the "front of the grip only." Use forward pressure with the firing hand and backward pressure with the support hand to control recoil. With average size hands, the drum sticks of the thumbs will meet at the back left corner of the grip for a right handed shooter.
2) You don't need thumbs to properly grip a pistol. They can either hang off the side of the pistol and point toward the target or lightly touch the side of the frame behind/below the magazine release.
3) Get a proper firing grip, position your body toward the target, close your eyes and lower the pistol. Then open your eyes, raise the pistol without moving your arms left or right. The idea is to bring the pistol up to eye level naturally. If the front sight is off to one side or the other when viewed through the rear sight, adjust your grip and repeat the process. Hint: Overgripping with the support hand will cause a right handed shooter to shoot left and undergripping has the opposite effect.
4) When "pressing" the trigger to the rear, no further pressure is applied to the grip. If you tighten your grip while "pressing" the trigger, it is called milking and it will cause your shots to move from your point of aim during the firing process.
5) If you are gripping the pistol properly, the trigger press weight will feel lighter. A light grip on the pistol with the firing hand will make the trigger press weight feel heavier.
You may have to adjust your grip slightly to facilitate a 90 degree trigger finger press. Ideally the part of the finger beyond the distal joint should be at a 90 degree angle with the part of the finger behind the middle joint of your trigger finger when the shot breaks. Another way of looking at it is that the fingernail should be at a 90 degree angle in relationship to the part of the trigger finger that lays along the strong side of the grip.
Notice I did not use the word "pull" when explaining trigger manipulation.
There are a lot of ways to explain this, but this is the way we have been successfully teaching people to grip the pistol.
That's a good read, thanks.
I've been focusing on tightening up my groups lately myself. I've also grown into getting narrower front and rear sights and that has helped.
Hack calls this the "band-aid method". Yes it works, but it will fail you SHO and WHO.
SHO/WHO isn't the same grip, but I do get what you're saying as far as a band aid method. On static single shots, trigger discipline can be easily focused on. When it's multiple [i.e. 5 shots], 'the band aid' works, since my focus is sights, recoil management, cadence, mechanics. For me as the speed required picks up, I can't be as disciplined on static shots - thus the need for a physical mechanics [band aid] to allow me to achieve the results I need. YMMV.
Another thing I noticed for me was a sympathetic response to pulling the trigger. Whether it's from anticipating recoil or just how I'm wired when I activate my index finger the thumb squeezes in as well putting pressure on the side of the gun pushing my round off. For me keeping my thumbs off the frame seems to improve accuracy so I'm sticking to it. Also doing grip strength work and focusing on isolating he trigger finger from the rest of them.
SHO/WHO isn't the same grip, but I do get what you're saying as far as a band aid method. On static single shots, trigger discipline can be easily focused on. When it's multiple [i.e. 5 shots], 'the band aid' works, since my focus is sights, recoil management, cadence, mechanics. For me as the speed required picks up, I can't be as disciplined on static shots - thus the need for a physical mechanics [band aid] to allow me to achieve the results I need. YMMV.It should be, with the exception of where you keep your thumb.
With practice of the fundamentals, you should no longer need the band-aid. Work on trigger control. You ingrain it just like your draw stroke or reloading. You'll know you no longer need the band-aid when you start throwing rounds to the right consistently, but dead on SHO or WHO.
Another thing I noticed for me was a sympathetic response to pulling the trigger. Whether it's from anticipating recoil or just how I'm wired when I activate my index finger the thumb squeezes in as well putting pressure on the side of the gun pushing my round off. For me keeping my thumbs off the frame seems to improve accuracy so I'm sticking to it. Also doing grip strength work and focusing on isolating he trigger finger from the rest of them.
Are you pulling with your distal or middle phalangeal joint? Try just moving the middle.
My groups used to string horizontally, so I did some research on grip. I found that some very high-level shooters keep the thumb on the frame while other very high-level shooters let it stick out into space. I tried having my thumb out in space and the stringing stopped, so I stuck with it.
Okie John
Yeah, if I remember correctly, Brian Enos said he doesn't let his thumbs have any input, while Rob Leatham and Dave Sevigny use their thumbs to apply pressure. I think it's an individiual thing when it comes to thumbs.
To OP - shooting left with a right hand strong hand indicates trigger snatch. You may only be seeing it at speed as most people tend to try to "shoot fast" (i.e. with their trigger finger) when trying to shoot faster. Hope that makes sense. Another way put, you might be trying to cut your time by pulling the trigger faster causing trigger snatch.
It is hard to be consistent and quantify that thumb pressure. We teach that the thumbs should be "dead" and not actively trying to steer the gun around. We get students to have proper trigger pull so as to keep gun alignment and this goes along with a requirement to shoot one handed (negating one thumb). Culprits in this tendency to shoot to the left (right handed shooter) is an active gripping hand, incorrect trigger press and incorrect finger placement on the trigger. There may be other causes as well. A good coach/instructor will be able to assess what is going on and provide assistance on how to cure it.
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