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View Full Version : Declines In Quality....?



ST911
06-18-08, 11:31
This exchange...


There is absolutely nothing wrong with Bushmaster. I would rather have it than a Colt! Why are they being hit so bad with bad publicity? Who is putting it out? Why? At one time they were considered the best! Why has that changed or has it? Magpul, it goes without saying, is quality !


If I may, humbly (or not so), suggest you look here. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642 Bushmaster today is not the same Bushmaster it was, and the playing field has gotten substantially stronger and the competition substantially steeper. It's not a good idea to be heading down while your competition is heading up.

and an old dusty AR brought to me the other day, reminded me to post the following for discussion.

It's common to see references to declining trends in quality, and mentions that manufacturers are not what they once were. In this example, Bushmaster, but this post isn’t unique to them.

Where the clones/aftermarket guns are concerned, I question whether or not much, if anything, has changed. I think we have.

Long before I got some training, took pictures, kept notes, or contemplated things beyond "kewl!, I recall malfunctions of various sorts that I hadn't yet learned to diagnose or differentiate. I recall dialing windage knobs all the way left to zero. I recall guns going back to manufacturers because they didn't work right. As always, some were better than others, but they were always there, and they were the usual suspects.

A series of events, paradigm shifts, and trends gave the type greater exposure. Depending on what you consider and how you do it, beginning in the early to mid-90s, we saw (in no particular order)…

…a variety of high profile incidents prompting inception of LE/gov patrol rifle programs.

…a shift away from traditional PCC and SMGs.

…increased accessibility and open-enrollment options for citizens in high quality training.

…increased interest in crime prevention and disaster/contingency preparedness.

…incidents prompting anti-government sentiment and preparedness.

…broader, mainstream acceptance of the type.

All producing greater demand, use volume, and performance data.

During that time interval, and especially more recently, there was also more deliberate and meaningful contemplation of many variables by industry and end-users, as well as an increase in the quality of contemplation already occurring. Newcomers brought genesis. We also got smarter.

Add now rapid information sharing via web, and we become more informed, more quickly.

Certainly, there are peaks and valleys in production quality, influenced by component availability and schedules, but are some “not what they used to be”…really?

The old dusty AR mentioned I mentioned above was little different than the same configuration produced by that manufacturer today. If not for the serial number and some subtleties, most would never know its age, in inspection or live fire.

Short: I think the bar went up, and everyone is what they always were.

rob_s
06-18-08, 11:48
You may well be right. I thought I once posted a thread here about "what is wrong with Bushmaster?" but can't seem to find it now so maybe I didn't.

In short, the ban expired, the competition grew really deep, and more consumers that had access to the product meant more consumers that were educated about the product, which meant that newcomers needed to make a better product to make a splash.

During the ban you had the "ABC" suggestion you so often would read on TOS. Armalite, Bushmaster and Colt. But truthfully, who else was there? Hesse? Olympic? DPMS (even though some people tried to make it "ABCD", ugh)? Then came RRA. They were making a Bushmaster quality firearm, less chrome lining, for $100 less. So the acronym became "ABC and R".

Then the ban sunset, and people started buying in droves, and companies that weren't previously selling much, started to. I thank LMT for the paradigm shift in this regard because they were the first to really start making a "Colt quality" firearm at a "Bushmaster price". So, you had to buy the upper and lower separately, but for anyone that was knowledgeable enough to want that level of quality this was a non-issue.

You can see this paradigm shift continue into the more recent players like S&W, Sabre, and most recently Charles Daly. Daly is especially interesting because they actually went to the source and asked the end users what they wanted to see. 10 years ago do you think most of these people would have had a clue as to what MPI, or HPT, or good staking was? I know I didn't, and even though I worked at a gun shop at the time I know that none of my customers did either.

The current state of the commercial AR market is a perfect example of the increased quality of a product in a free-market. It's refreshing and exciting IMHO.

The problem with Bushmaster is that they were content to rest on their laurels. I don't know if a 1995 Colt commercial M4 with fixed telestock was up to the standards of a current market 6920, but I know that Bushmaster has changed virtually not at all except to say that they may have once made a better effort to stake their carrier keys.

So you're probably right, and I probably mispoke, in that Bushmaster has stayed standing still while everyone else around them has improved and new players have come to market that offer their same quality at a lower price or better quality for the same price.

ST911
06-18-08, 11:50
So you're probably right, and I probably mispoke, in that Bushmaster has stayed standing still while everyone else around them has improved and new players have come to market that offer their same quality at a lower price or better quality for the same price.

No swipe intended, bro, just thinking out loud. :cool:

rob_s
06-18-08, 11:52
No worries, I didn't take it as such.

MassMark
06-18-08, 13:29
Though it's only mildly related, (they do not make AR's as far as I know), I call this real or imagined decline in quality: "The Post AWB Sunset Syndrome". I often use Vector and their once solid Uzi Carbines as an example. Prior to the sunset of the AWB, it was hard to imagine a better built and functioning Uzi - especially for the short money vector was offering their carbines for. The gun was great, customer service was great - all was right in the world. Post sunset, demand skyrocketed and so too did complaints about Vector. Suddenly a laundry list of issues started popping up that included, but were not limited to: rusty barrels, blast media in the receivers, canted sights, trunion problems, bad springs, bad bolts, cracked receivers, sears not engaging, etc, etc...The popular response of the day from Vector loyalists was: "Just ship it back to Vector, they have great customer service". That's fine I suppose, unless you subscribe to the theory that even at $650.00 for an Uzi - it should still function out of the box. I don;t for one pay hard earned for a rifle to have to ship it back - stellar customer service or not - that's just lunacy to me. Build it right the first time, or just simply don't build it. I have seem a similar shift in companies like Bushmaster, Rock River Arms and CMMG. RRA's were once heralded - now they seem to be popular rifles for the uninformed. I fired an early RRA and was stunned by what a sweet rifle it was - the latest example I fired was anything but.... Coincidence? Or could it be that some companies got too big for their britches and tried to keep up with demand by being un or under prepared for it. One could also at least guess that perhaps some took the approach of "profits before people" - banking that their good name would carry them through suspect, absent or shoddy quality control....Just a thought.

ToddG
06-18-08, 13:43
I think there are multiple factors at work, here.

Skintop: yes, shooters and other gun owners are becoming more savvy and particular in their wants & needs, real or imagined. This is in large part due to the Internet and places like M4C. How many people never knew the difference between barrel steels, MPI'd parts, etc. before coming here?

MassMark: yes, the sunsetting of the AWB opened the floodgates and many companies new & established chose to forego previous quality standards in favor of profits and quick sales.

But there are also other things to consider. First and foremost is the economy.
Cost of raw materials have skyrocketed over the past three or four years (this is why the "issue" seems to coincide with the AWB going away)
Cost of transporting raw materials to manufacturers and cost of transporting finished goods to distributors and dealers has skyrocketed over the past three or four years.
For many people in key historic gun-buying demographics, disposable income is becoming limited.
Gun buyers are cheap bastards and flip out when gun prices go up.

The result is that gun companies are cutting corners, sometimes severely, to keep their prices down. And the market continues to reward them for that decision. While the cognoscenti here at M4C might look down its collective nose at many of these QC-starved companies, those companies are selling plenty of guns and making plenty of money.

In the gun industry, playing to the lowest common denominator makes you the most money.

Paulinski
06-18-08, 14:18
I'm surprised how companies like Model 1 and DPMS stay in business?

Paul

cabbynate
06-18-08, 15:13
I'm surprised how companies like Model 1 and DPMS stay in business?

Paul

Is there something about DPMS I should no about?:(
I really like mine.

MassMark
06-18-08, 17:13
Is there something about DPMS I should no about?:(
I really like mine.

Hit the search feature....DPMS has also chosen to take a dump on QC...From improperly cut chambers to improperly staked, (if at all keys) and beyond...Plus, I think they outright lie about their products.

KintlaLake
06-18-08, 17:36
While the cognoscenti here at M4C might look down its collective nose at many of these QC-starved companies, those companies are selling plenty of guns and making plenty of money.

In the gun industry, playing to the lowest common denominator makes you the most money.

That needed to be said out loud.

Besides, I just won the pool on which M4C member would be the first to use cognoscenti in a sentence...

:D

R Moran
06-18-08, 18:01
BAck in 2000 I was talking to Ken Elmore of Specialized Armament at an Albuquerque gun show, and he made a comment, while I don't remember the exact words, you get the idea.

He said, Kimber will of has found out what Bushmaster found out, and Colt has known for a long time, when the demand goes up, you can't keep the quality up AND the price down.

Bob

rifleshooter
06-18-08, 18:13
BAck in 2000 I was talking to Ken Elmore of Specialized Armament at an Albuquerque gun show, and he made a comment, while I don't remember the exact words, you get the idea.

He said, Kimber will of has found out what Bushmaster found out, and Colt has known for a long time, when the demand goes up, you can't keep the quality up AND the price down.

Bob

I agree with the statment when you start getting BIG Military contracts and you have BIG production contracts for non Military rifles and handguns. you first don't want to lose any contracts so you find ways to up production and quality suffers.

When I worked at a large hydraulic valve and product company in Burbank Ca back in the 60s and the height on the Nam war. There was so much pressure from the managers at this company to get things out the door it was a fight to keep real bad units from being shipped. If you stood up for quality and stood in the way of getting stuff shipped. You got quickly taken down and if you did not go along you were fired.

I think it's the same today with the ARs so much demand so little time for real inspection. Boss says ship it all today so out gos what ever is there. You get what you get quality or not so quality.

Seems no matter how much you are required t pay you still don't get real quality every time. It's a crap shoot and it should not be this way.:mad: