View Full Version : Is the VP9 the death of the P30?
Before the release of the VP9 the P30 sold like hotcakes, however now that the VP9 is out its seems that the P30's just sit on the shelf. So when you look at both pistols why would anyone still pick the P30 over the VP9 unless they were strictly looking for a DA/SA action? I mean I've seen VP9's go for $549.99 which is $250 less than I've seen P30's for sale anywhere. So will the VP9 be the death of the P30?
Hunter Rose
09-26-14, 02:46
So when you look at both pistols why would anyone still pick the P30 over the VP9 unless they were strictly looking for a DA/SA action? ...So will the VP9 be the death of the P30?
Kind of answered your own question. Not everyone wants or is comfortable with a striker fired pistol of the Glock/VP9 layout. There's still plenty of people, especially AIWB concealed carriers, who prefer DA/SA, LEM, or manual safety equipped pistols for the extra margins of safety provided. I personally won't get a VP9 until they release a manual safety version.
The VP9 will definitely take a large bite out of P30 sales (it being significantly cheaper as wll as "the new hotness" helps too), but the P30 is not going anywhere.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-26-14, 07:12
I doubt it. H&K sort of makes a gun for every category. P30 for your double action types, and for those who otherwise might select a Glock with a NY trigger for safety reasons (std LEM). The Vp9 is for folks who like the simplicity and don't mind the safety compromises of a striker, but don't want to deal with the QC drama of a Glock or Smith.
P30's were selling like hotcakes? I see some portion of the forum populations have them. I sure don't see many out in the wild. There was a 45C at the Hack class I attended though.
I know P30 and HK45s were tough to find in the NE but I'm not sure if thats a result of price, marketing, HK not shipping a lot of them, etc. I recall almost every LGS having some variation of the USP both new and used in there display cases. I also noticed they were sitting there for quite a long time as opposed to other manufactures guns. I'm surprised the USP is holding its own in the face of the P2000 series, HK45 series and P30 line. It would seem logical for HK to drop or reduce the USP line, IMO. From what Ive read and seen, the VP9 is definitely going to be a "family" of guns (compact , long slide/ tactical, different cal. etc.)
I'm still good with my P30 - I'm sure some people who would buy a P30 will consider / buy a VP9 now but those who want DA/SA, SA w/safety, or LEM will still go P30.
Before the release of the VP9 the P30 sold like hotcakes, however now that the VP9 is out its seems that the P30's just sit on the shelf. So when you look at both pistols why would anyone still pick the P30 over the VP9 unless they were strictly looking for a DA/SA action? I mean I've seen VP9's go for $549.99 which is $250 less than I've seen P30's for sale anywhere. So will the VP9 be the death of the P30?
I would have thought so, but we are still selling P30's so I don't know.
C4
wildcard600
09-26-14, 08:56
I know P30 and HK45s were tough to find in the NE but I'm not sure if thats a result of price, marketing, HK not shipping a lot of them, etc. I recall almost every LGS having some variation of the USP both new and used in there display cases. I also noticed they were sitting there for quite a long time as opposed to other manufactures guns. I'm surprised the USP is holding its own in the face of the P2000 series, HK45 series and P30 line. It would seem logical for HK to drop or reduce the USP line, IMO. From what Ive read and seen, the VP9 is definitely going to be a "family" of guns (compact , long slide/ tactical, different cal. etc.)
Some people still want a USP for what it is and dont desire the "upgrades" of the newer pistols. Why would some one buy a 1911 when their are newer designs available ?
IMO
gtmtnbiker98
09-26-14, 09:49
I own several HK pistols to include the P30 and VP9. The P30 is my issued sidearm for duty use and I use the VP9 for gun games. I carry AIWB when not in uniform, so a hammer is a must. The P30 is my do all platform and the P2000SK is my discreet carry pistol. They all have their place.
Back to the topic, nobody here can tell you whether or not the P30 will remain an item in the HK catalog. Only HK can answer specifics like that and guess what, they won't tell you. It is a safe assumption that the VP9 has impacted P30 sales, how could it not?
JBecker 72
09-26-14, 10:24
After owning many striker guns I have come to the realization that I prefer DA/SA guns better. I also own a P30 and really like it. Would love to get the long slide V3 someday.
I guess it really is too early to tell, and does HK ever discontinue a product? After all the USP is still in production, and its 2 generations old now.
PatrioticDisorder
09-26-14, 11:16
I guess it really is too early to tell, and does HK ever discontinue a product? After all the USP is still in production, and its 2 generations old now.
P7M8 was discontinued and is still reasonably popular...
brickboy240
09-26-14, 11:25
From it's price point and all the reviews from those that already bought one...I'd say it might even nip at the heels of the Glock 17.
...seriously
The P-30? I have no desire to spend 900 dollars on a d/a-s/a 9mm.
-brickboy240
I own several HK pistols to include the P30 and VP9. The P30 is my issued sidearm for duty use and I use the VP9 for gun games. I carry AIWB when not in uniform, so a hammer is a must. The P30 is my do all platform and the P2000SK is my discreet carry pistol. They all have their place.
Back to the topic, nobody here can tell you whether or not the P30 will remain an item in the HK catalog. Only HK can answer specifics like that and guess what, they won't tell you. It is a safe assumption that the VP9 has impacted P30 sales, how could it not?
Do you think that the VP9 will be much more successful in the LE sales than the P30 was/is?
C4
From it's price point and all the reviews from those that already bought one...I'd say it might even nip at the heels of the Glock 17.
...seriously
The P-30? I have no desire to spend 900 dollars on a d/a-s/a 9mm.
-brickboy240
I conpletely agree. A gen 4 17 goes for $539-ish around here. Would I spend $10-30 more for a VP9? Absolutely.
I think HK still makes the USP series so I would think they'll stay in the line for now.
Was the automatic transmission the death of the manual transmission ? Nope. But what do most people prefer to have and use ? IMHO, I believe the preference in trigger types has pretty much
paralleled it in the last 15 years or so.
I think that if any H&K pistols are going to get the axe the P2000 is the most likely candidate. Between the P30 and VP9, the P2000 is the odd ball unless you want a compact or sub-compact. If the P30 and VP9 continue to sell well and the demand for K/SK models grows, I think it's likely that they will release at least one. With compact models for either the P30 or VP9, at that point there's very little point to continue manufacturing or buying P2000s outside of contractual obligations.
I also doubt that the USP line is going anywhere. Yes, it is "old" and some would say outdated, but it's also well established and reputable, not to mention readily identifiable. I don't think it's going anywhere for a while, though the Mk.23 may end up going the way of the dodo sooner rather than later.
JBecker 72
09-26-14, 16:22
If HK made a P30SK I wouldn't have bought a P2000SK. That's for sure.
teutonicpolymer
09-26-14, 16:33
I am way over DA/SA guns. That being said if HK took their DA/SA guns and made them striker fired like they sort of did with the P30 and VP9 then that would be great. I would really love to see a striker fired P2000.
MountainRaven
09-26-14, 19:59
I think that's a resounding no.
I do think the VP9 will cannibalize some P30 sales. But I think it will also eat into M&P and Glock sales - sales that the P30 was frankly unlikely to really touch - too.
As others have eluded to, I think the P30 will stick around. For institutional users who don't trust anything that's single-action only (as the VP9 is), who want something with a manual safety, and/or who want a pistol that is double-action only the P30 is an excellent choice and certainly fills the gap left by the VP9. And if your poison is .400-diameter and not .355-diameter, the P30 is pretty much the only game in town (in H&KSpiderBatManGripLand).
There is no perfect H&K - only perfect H&Ks.
Aside: The P7 was discontinued because it was becoming incredibly expensive to manufacture. It's still a cool gun and I still miss my PSP, but I don't blame H&K for discontinuing it. Now maybe they could make a single-stack polymer-frame VP9 the same size as the P7 and call it the VP7... hmm....
dookie1481
09-26-14, 21:47
I conpletely agree. A gen 4 17 goes for $539-ish around here. Would I spend $10-30 more for a VP9? Absolutely.
Unless a dealer is HK direct or in some awesome buy group, they aren't selling VP9s for $550 and making any money.
I would say, judging by Slickguns list of in stock vendors (http://www.slickguns.com/product/hk-vp9-64999), that $600-650 is a more realistic price.
JBecker 72
09-26-14, 21:54
$650 seems to be the current going rate in my area for the standard model. About $75 more than a gen 4 17.
HK isn't exactly quick to discontinue handguns, the USP line wasn't killed by its arguably superior successors, and I've seen no evidence that P30s around the country are just sitting on shelves. The ones that pop up here locally get snagged pretty quickly, at least.
Contribution margin, sales cannibalization and sales projections are things most good Companies put a lot of effort into before introducing a product and setting its price point. Assuming HK is more than an engineering firm I would have to say the answer is pretty firmly no. I do not, however, have any insights into their business plan so perhaps the answer is yes and they have plans around that issue.
I know I will be keeping my VP9 and P30.
IMHO, they are not quick to introduce or quick to pull. My P30's will remain in the stable. The P30 has an amazing history of durability. Which HK enjoys that reputation. HK is doing exactly what they wanted, charging into the striker fired market. I bet they do get LE contracts due to familiarity of striker guns and better price point of an HK built gun.
There are also the cocked and locked crowd still loving their 1911 and P30. In a couple years, I might grab the new design, but I won't ditch my P30's , or HK45 / C. I'm glad HK put more heat in this market. I dig my MNP's and competition helps us all.
PB
The VP9 will kill the P30 like the Glock killed the 1911 or the P30 killed the USP.
People like what they like and will continue to buy them. Unless those items negatively impact the bottom line smart companies will continue to offer products that people want to buy.
As far as LE sales go, the Glock 17 goes for $425, $400 if you wait for the annual Glock days sales. I'm not aware of a specific LE VP9 price, but $425 is a far cry from $650.
JohnnyDollar
09-27-14, 12:26
I think HK's decisions on which guns to introduce or discontinue are driven more by military and police wants and needs and less by the civilian market. And world wide, not just in the US. In the case of the VP9 it happens that demand in the m&p markets and civilian markets coincide. As long as the P30, USP, or any other model is in demand in the military and police markets HK will still make it.
So...if you were advising somebody on a HK to buy, if they said they wanted a 9mm handgun, why would you advise them to buy the P30? I've got no dog in this fight. I've owned a number of HKs, including the VP9 and I would not be able to advise anyone buy a P30 over a VP9.
You'd advice a P30 to those who want hammer, those who want manual safety or cocked and locked option, those who want similar trigger system between larger and subcompact guns, and those who are reluctant to buy a gun that's been out just two months, and "out" is a bit of exaggeration since local availability here is far inferior to P30, let alone Glocks.
I was left completely underwhelmed by the VP9. It is clear where the trade-offs were made to cut costs and put the VP9 at its current price point. Personally I don't care for this type of magazine release and the VP9 ergo's do not fit me in that I cannot effectively release the slide with my support hands thumb on the VP9, whereas the P30 is much more conducive, however that is a personal issue / preference of mine. I will note that the durability of the levers, especially the ambi side of the weapon seems to be lacking in thought and engineering, for cost savings, but true durability we be played out with time and may put that concern to bed. Also while I do like a striker fired pistol, I do not care for a hard reset so I was not "amazed" by the trigger but again just another preference.
I can get a Glock for around $440 out the door and LE Agency pricing is better than individual LEO pricing. Even S&W LEO or LEA pricing is excellent. For the VP9, availability and costs of parts for ongoing maintenance and accessories, costs of magazines, I don't really see the VP9 being a big mover and shaker in the LE world. It may have a certain niche on a individual or smaller agency level, but to be a real contender it will need to win over major metro PD's and IMO that would be a big hurdle given the competition and all the factors.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-27-14, 17:11
I personally prefer the VP9 because I find the trigger to be much better, and the gun is faster, for me, on a timer. However, if I was equipping a police department I would prefer the P30 with standard LEM trigger since the LEM has a much bigger margin of error for administrative handling and I like the fact that you can ride the hammer during reholstering to detect "whopsiedaises."
teutonicpolymer
09-27-14, 18:41
I think HK's decisions on which guns to introduce or discontinue are driven more by military and police wants and needs and less by the civilian market. And world wide, not just in the US. In the case of the VP9 it happens that demand in the m&p markets and civilian markets coincide. As long as the P30, USP, or any other model is in demand in the military and police markets HK will still make it.
This is probably why HK is so close to bankruptcy
gtmtnbiker98
09-27-14, 18:58
Do you think that the VP9 will be much more successful in the LE sales than the P30 was/is?
C4Given the price point, if the VP9 was available at the time I chose the P30 for the department, I would be hard pressed to not pick the VP9. The shootability and price point is hard to over look, my only reservation would be track record. I have approaching 70,000 rounds on the P30 Series since 2009, so I'm still comfortable with the P30 and really enjoying the "Veep."
The price will get more looks due to price; however, when we chose the P30, we didn't consider price since we "were" a SIG agency, prior.
Patriot328
09-27-14, 19:11
I was left completely underwhelmed by the VP9. It is clear where the trade-offs were made to cut costs and put the VP9 at its current price point. Personally I don't care for this type of magazine release and the VP9 ergo's do not fit me in that I cannot effectively release the slide with my support hands thumb on the VP9, whereas the P30 is much more conducive, however that is a personal issue / preference of mine. I will note that the durability of the levers, especially the ambi side of the weapon seems to be lacking in thought and engineering, for cost savings, but true durability we be played out with time and may put that concern to bed. Also while I do like a striker fired pistol, I do not care for a hard reset so I was not "amazed" by the trigger but again just another preference.
.
Just out of curiosity, do you have small hands? I have the large inserts in and can hit the slide release with my strong hand thumb easily and can also hit the mag release with my trigger finger no problem.
I have had numerous striker fired pistols and the vp9 seems to have the best "out of the box" trigger. Is it a 3lb CZ or 1911 trigger? Nope, but it's pretty good.
I have had numerous striker fired pistols and the vp9 seems to have the best "out of the box" trigger. Is it a 3lb CZ or 1911 trigger? Nope, but it's pretty good.
I would compare the VP9 trigger to that on the Walther PPQ. I actually sold my Walther because the trigger was so light and had such a short reset, that sometimes i went bang-bang when I only wanted to go bang. I actually prefer (or have simply become accustomed to) the trigger on my Glock 34.
Just out of curiosity, do you have small hands? I have the large inserts in and can hit the slide release with my strong hand thumb easily and can also hit the mag release with my trigger finger no problem.
I have had numerous striker fired pistols and the vp9 seems to have the best "out of the box" trigger. Is it a 3lb CZ or 1911 trigger? Nope, but it's pretty good.I meant to say, as a right hander I prefer to use the primary hands thumb to release the slide, but I think you got that part, but yes I do have short fingers. I can manipulate the magazine release and I use my primary hands middle finger as opposed to the index finger but this type of magazine release has always been far from my favorite type. As for the slide stop as a release, I do not like to break my primary grip to release the slide or the magazine release and with the Gen4 Glock as an example I can reach the magazine release and slide stop without shifting my hand, which is why I didn't like the Gen3 Glocks as much as I cannot hit the magazine release unless if I shift the weapon or the slide stop without the extended stop.
With the VP9, I cannot reliably hit the slide stop with my thumb even with the smallest grip size and honestly I do not care for the recessed release as opposed to the P30 design where the release is easily manipulated and feels a heck of a lot more robust IMO. Put on gloves and the VP9 slide stop is even more difficult to manipulate. As for the trigger a hard reset is not my preference, which is why I don't prefer certain Glock spring combos that many others run, however the Glock trigger is easily manipulated / altered and the standard stock 5.5 with a Glock is a good trigger and gets even better quickly enough.
I am not a VP9 hater as it is a good weapon, but I still prefer the ergos of other pistols in this class that come in a good bit cheaper for my price and availability of holsters, etc and again cost of mags is also a factor. If you have the mags already great, but a new pistol plus 2-3 extra mags, holsters etc and you get into the VP9 for a good chunk of change and that is prior to any other pistol alterations / modifications. With all of the "internet hype" revolving around this pistol, even I was drooling and was in that line to buy one without even handling it. I don't impress easily but I am always looking for that new thing that improves my game, so I honestly was expecting a heck of a lot more when I finally got some time with one. If the weapon suits the shooter and costs are not a problem, the VP9 is a heck of a pistol. For myself I am still searching and the VP9 is not my personal game changer.
My P30 is not going anywhere.
I think it is more likely they would kill the USP before the P30.
At least there is a clear DA/SA vs striker comparison (P30 vs VP9) the USP is basically the same exact gun as the P30 with a worse rail. (i know there are other subtle difference but they are very subtle)
Also, LEM is just hands down my favorite trigger system. Striker can probably be run faster no doubt, but PERSONALLY I just love what LEM offers as a daily use trigger. I am very comfortable with it.
Seems like they should cut down to the P30/2000/HK45 series and VP series and finally stop production of the USP.
Amurr
I don't think H&K will stop production of the P30
Anytime soon ! ... at least I hope not im wanting
A P30 light lem in 40 cal someday so maybe
Grant can help me out with that when im ready
To buy !
Cervantes
Mauser KAR98K
09-28-14, 22:26
My P30 is not going anywhere.
I think it is more likely they would kill the USP before the P30.
At least there is a clear DA/SA vs striker comparison (P30 vs VP9) the USP is basically the same exact gun as the P30 with a worse rail. (i know there are other subtle difference but they are very subtle)
Also, LEM is just hands down my favorite trigger system. Striker can probably be run faster no doubt, but PERSONALLY I just love what LEM offers as a daily use trigger. I am very comfortable with it.
Seems like they should cut down to the P30/2000/HK45 series and VP series and finally stop production of the USP.
Amurr
From my understanding, the USP is still one of their top sellers.
The P30 isn't going anywhere with it being a hammer and manual safety alternative to the VP9. You have shooters, such as myself, that have trained, or in my case, grew up with 1911s. I carry either my P30 or USP45 hammer down, safety up. It is also an added bonus when reholstering.
My P30 is not going anywhere.
I think it is more likely they would kill the USP before the P30.
At least there is a clear DA/SA vs striker comparison (P30 vs VP9) the USP is basically the same exact gun as the P30 with a worse rail. (i know there are other subtle difference but they are very subtle)
Also, LEM is just hands down my favorite trigger system. Striker can probably be run faster no doubt, but PERSONALLY I just love what LEM offers as a daily use trigger. I am very comfortable with it.
Seems like they should cut down to the P30/2000/HK45 series and VP series and finally stop production of the USP.
Amurr
USP/USPC appears to be built a little more robust then the p30 and all the others. It's the only one that was ok'd from hk for +p/+p+ ammo. Long live the USP!
brickboy240
09-29-14, 14:22
I forgot about LE pricing.
For us civvies...around here the Glock 17 sells for$ 469-$489 and the VP-9 is $599.
Many stores sell G17s for $525 or thereabout.
Not a huge difference.
-brickboy240
USP/USPC appears to be built a little more robust then the p30 and all the others. It's the only one that was ok'd from hk for +p/+p+ ammo. Long live the USP!
Just to be clear, I ain't hatin' on the USP it's a beast.
brickboy240
09-29-14, 15:39
If HK is still making the USP pistols...chances of the P-30 going away are damn slim.
-brickboy240
I agree with many of the other posters in this thread.
I bought the VP9, almost immediately, because I am a staunch advocate of striker fired pistols. As much as I love the VP9 and its ergonomics, trigger pull and overall package, I really prefer my USP. It feels more solid and works really well with my prior training. It is my only DA/SA gun and for a while I ran it in SAO with a 5+6 detent plate, but decided that an external safety would cause more training confusion, as I left the 1911 world years ago. I run it V3 now, and the DA pull is very, very easy to manage and I have found that I am not slower to put lead to target with the DA trigger pull. The USPs DA pull is better than my Glock 42s stock pull.
What I don't understand, as much, is the draw to the P30 and HK45. I know people call them "upgraded USPs," but I definitely don't agree with that assessment. I still consider the USP to be HKs flagship.
I love the USP; I love the robust design
Mauser KAR98K
09-29-14, 20:39
USP/USPC appears to be built a little more robust then the p30 and all the others. It's the only one that was ok'd from hk for +p/+p+ ammo. Long live the USP!
Hey...that's my line (well, on HKPro, that is).
I agree with many of the other posters in this thread.
I bought the VP9, almost immediately, because I am a staunch advocate of striker fired pistols. As much as I love the VP9 and its ergonomics, trigger pull and overall package, I really prefer my USP. It feels more solid and works really well with my prior training. It is my only DA/SA gun and for a while I ran it in SAO with a 5+6 detent plate, but decided that an external safety would cause more training confusion, as I left the 1911 world years ago. I run it V3 now, and the DA pull is very, very easy to manage and I have found that I am not slower to put lead to target with the DA trigger pull. The USPs DA pull is better than my Glock 42s stock pull.
What I don't understand, as much, is the draw to the P30 and HK45. I know people call them "upgraded USPs," but I definitely don't agree with that assessment. I still consider the USP to be HKs flagship.
I love the USP; I love the robust design
This.
The VP9 is new, and the only one I know to go past 3,000 rounds is on this board. The USP, however, is a proven system not only in the field (German Army), but Federal has theirs with something North of 200,000 or 300,000 rounds (USP45), and like others have noted, the USP is in it's second generation model with very few upgrades and tweaks from the original pistol. One being the firing pin. Every generation of the pistol has made it better on platform that was fantastic to begin with in regards to robustness, reliability and accuracy. Can't say that with Glock. It seems their latest generation model comes with problems that the previous generations didn't have.
The P30 and the HK45, though, are right up there, the VP9 starting to cut its teeth. Time well tell what HK will do, and how well the VP9 does. Europe is getting the SFP9, which has some different design features than the US VP9. For instance one picture I have seen looks to have a notch where a manual safety would go. HK also has plans to expand the VP to other calibers and different sizes. But it being HK, don't hold your breath until it comes out. Why they have such a low percentage of weapons the produce coming out as dudes is for a reason. Remington rushed the R51 and that thing was a flop like no other. The quality control was non-existent. HK delayed the VP9 from being unveiled multiple times because it wasn't quiet right. I can respect a company that does that.
Long Live the USP!
dookie1481
09-29-14, 20:47
What I don't understand, as much, is the draw to the P30 and HK45. I know people call them "upgraded USPs," but I definitely don't agree with that assessment. I still consider the USP to be HKs flagship.
Some of us don't have hands the size of dinner plates.
I have the VP9, P30 V3 and P2000. All in 9mm. My favorite is my P2000.
I carry IWB at the 3 o clock position. For me a DA/SA is a must for carry.
I view my striker 9mm's "fun" guns. The VP9 is an excellent handgun, but I like my P series guns more.
Hey...that's my line (well, on HKPro, that is).
This.
The VP9 is new, and the only one I know to go past 3,000 rounds is on this board. The USP, however, is a proven system not only in the field (German Army), but Federal has theirs with something North of 200,000 or 300,000 rounds (USP45), and like others have noted, the USP is in it's second generation model with very few upgrades and tweaks from the original pistol. One being the firing pin. Every generation of the pistol has made it better on platform that was fantastic to begin with in regards to robustness, reliability and accuracy. Can't say that with Glock. It seems their latest generation model comes with problems that the previous generations didn't have.
The P30 and the HK45, though, are right up there, the VP9 starting to cut its teeth. Time well tell what HK will do, and how well the VP9 does. Europe is getting the SFP9, which has some different design features than the US VP9. For instance one picture I have seen looks to have a notch where a manual safety would go. HK also has plans to expand the VP to other calibers and different sizes. But it being HK, don't hold your breath until it comes out. Why they have such a low percentage of weapons the produce coming out as dudes is for a reason. Remington rushed the R51 and that thing was a flop like no other. The quality control was non-existent. HK delayed the VP9 from being unveiled multiple times because it wasn't quiet right. I can respect a company that does that.
Long Live the USP!
Sorry Mauser. I do read HKPRO, a well. That thought came into my head on this post, but I'm sure, subconsciously, it's from reading one of your other posts. I won't use it again. I'll say something like "forever usp" [emoji41]
I have a P30S in 9mm (DA/SA) as well as two P2000s, a DA/SA and an P2000sk model with the "light" LEM trigger---both also 9mm---they ain't goin' nowhere---am I going to buy a VP9? Of course…!
Mauser KAR98K
09-30-14, 15:36
Sorry Mauser. I do read HKPRO, a well. That thought came into my head on this post, but I'm sure, subconsciously, it's from reading one of your other posts. I won't use it again. I'll say something like "forever usp" [emoji41]
Nah, it's cool. Spread it around!
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