View Full Version : FBI thinks your privacy is above the law !
our gov and its powers are getting so out of control !!!!
so having privacy puts me above the law ??? scary this is what the FBI feels that if they can't get into your phone when they want that puts you above the law !!!
according to FBI Director James Comey (via The Huffington Post). Comey says that he is concerned that the two companies are "marketing something expressly to allow people to place themselves above the law."
http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/25/rbi-concerned-with-apple-encryption/
thopkins22
09-27-14, 01:49
If Apple and Google cave, I'll be very upset.
The notion that someone would market a closet that could never be opened -- even if it involves a case involving a child kidnapper and a court order -- to me does not make any sense. Because that statement from Comey makes sense. These phones are like impenetrable rape rooms.
Reagans Rascals
09-27-14, 04:08
If Apple and Google cave, I'll be very upset.
Because that statement from Comey makes sense. These phones are like impenetrable rape rooms.
thats why Apple had to step up the size with the 6+.... Americans are getting a little larger these days so we need bigger rape closets....
It gets better: “The average pedophile at this point is probably thinking, I’ve got to get an Apple phone.” If you want to maintain your privacy, apparently you are up to something...
http://news.yahoo.com/police-chief-calls-apple-phone-choice-pedophile-183213272.html
TriviaMonster
09-27-14, 08:33
I bet that moron doesn't walk around Chicago in his birthday suit, we all have stuff to hide.
And anyone who thinks a pedophile will skate by because of an iPhone is an idiot. Encryption only adds cracking time, not total security. Believe that apple has left backdoors somehow.
For starters I don't believe a single word from any government agency or corporation that states they my data is truly private. Anyone who sais that is a lying sack of poop and probably trying to entice people to do stupid stuff while thinking they are safe.
As for the FBI director and the CLEO. When they begin leading by example and opening their data to their employers and stop trying to hide behind legal loopholes I'll consider taking them seriously.
there is plenty of information that can be pulled from cellphone use or that is stored remotely. This isn't a panacea for criminals. It does mean that companies who do not wish to comply with government information requests without explanation won't be blackmailed into doing so, because they will be incapable, and it means thousands of moms across america will buy into the company products because now their photos of their kids first birthday will be secure from the man. The hyperbole is hilarious. But the reason Apple states is only part of the reason they're doing this. And the government is far from impotent when it comes to using your iPhone as a source of intel on you.
Belmont31R
09-27-14, 09:08
I imagine at some point encryption will be illegal like this. They got to the TrueCrypt and Lavabit people already.
And this isn't the first time the FBI has complained about Apple. Apparently they haven't liked iMessage's being encrypted, either. That dates back a couple years. Apple not being able to bypass the lock screen is new, though.
I think its sick they basically say that iPhones are going to be the child porn phone because of this. **** the rest of us and our rights! Is that right? I shouldn't have security, and privacy of my data according to them because some other people like to look at illegal pictures?
TriviaMonster
09-27-14, 11:17
I think its sick they basically say that iPhones are going to be the child porn phone because of this. **** the rest of us and our rights! Is that right? I shouldn't have security, and privacy of my data according to them because some other people like to look at illegal pictures?
I imagine he stole his ideas from the Brady campaign, and switched all the gun words to child porn garb.
This is the same argument over and over.
Also, LMAO that a CLEO in Chicago is worried about child porn and won't address the bigger threat of all the children being dead from gang violence and shootings in his own city.
Wtf is wrong with Chiraq leadership? Place is a damn war zone and they are worried about iPhone encryption?
Moose-Knuckle
09-27-14, 11:47
Old news guys, research FBI black bag operations. Since the days of the transvestite J. Edgar Hoover the FBI has been illegally spying on Americans in one way or another. With technology these days the work is almost done for them.
It's a known fact that AT&T lets the NSA set up shop inside their own buildings, you know the multi-story ones absent of any windows and cooling towers on top.
http://www.wired.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-klein/
Ned Christiansen
09-27-14, 12:22
[QUOTE=Belmont31R;1996625]I imagine at some point encryption will be illegal like this. They got to the TrueCrypt and Lavabit people already.
QUOTE]
Well yeah. At some point any time you're talking to a pal on the street and you're not facing a camera or your audio is not being picked up because of a truck rolling by, the next thing will be a big black van with screeching to stop in front of you.
It's outrageous what some of these people have come to think their organization is entitled to. You know GD well they their own personal privacy exempt so, yeah-- no issue there. It's the little people we need to watch out for......
One bite at a time, that's how you eat a sandwich. Express your disgust or they'll think we're OK with it.
have a buddy who works in intelligence funny he gets and his buddies get old style flip phones for work :) hahahahaha
my bud who works at Huachuca as a instructor said they can't text anymore for security reasons just on base at work :) but was security not personal or time issues ?
davidjinks
09-27-14, 14:21
**** them! **** all of them! From the agent who carries out these unconstitutional laws all the way to the assholes who write them into law all the way to the ****tards who vote these fascist pigs into office!
Know for a fact that this won't affect the enforcers only the citizens of this country! That's the truly shitty part of all of this!
It ain't just the token douchebag who is currently in office right now. All of this has been dovetailing itself for the past 60 years.
One day we will wake up to a flashlight flooded muzzle stuck in our face because these ****ers have voted themselves so much power we the people will be powerless to stop them!
The gov can get in iPhones, Google the "Dropoutjeep" program.
I don't think the director is saying nobody is entitled to privacy. I imagine his concern, like many of us in LE is that when we obtain a legal search warrant there is no way to execute it if the phone is truly unable to be cracked. If you're a criminal then you give up your privacy rights as they pertain to the tools of your criminal enterprise. People who buy specific phones or computers because they are worried about LE searching it either have a hole in their tinfoil hats, or they are engaged in criminal activity. This is especially true given the court ruling this year that any LE search of a phone requires a warrant (something I agree with btw). There's nothing wrong with wanting and expecting your constitutionally guaranteed privacy. Nobody in LE I've worked with wants to take that away. But for us to protect society as a whole, we need to be able to gather evidence from criminal activity and use it to prosecute those who live outside our rules and laws.
Old news guys, research FBI black bag operations. Since the days of the transvestite J. Edgar Hoover the FBI has been illegally spying on Americans in one way or another. With technology these days the work is almost done for them.
It's a known fact that AT&T lets the NSA set up shop inside their own buildings, you know the multi-story ones absent of any windows and cooling towers on top.
http://www.wired.com/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-klein/
Lol! Any search, even a covert "black bag" job requires a court authorization. Whether its a district federal court judge or the FISA court - the probable cause is demonstrated first. None of the people I know in that agency take invasion of privacy lightly. There are multiple levels of safeguards in place and they will (as appropriate) hang out to dry anyone who violates these laws/policies.
Belmont31R
09-27-14, 15:01
I don't think the director is saying nobody is entitled to privacy. I imagine his concern, like many of us in LE is that when we obtain a legal search warrant there is no way to execute it if the phone is truly unable to be cracked. If you're a criminal then you give up your privacy rights as they pertain to the tools of your criminal enterprise. People who buy specific phones or computers because they are worried about LE searching it either have a hole in their tinfoil hats, or they are engaged in criminal activity. This is especially true given the court ruling this year that any LE search of a phone requires a warrant (something I agree with btw). There's nothing wrong with wanting and expecting your constitutionally guaranteed privacy. Nobody in LE I've worked with wants to take that away. But for us to protect society as a whole, we need to be able to gather evidence from criminal activity and use it to prosecute those who live outside our rules and laws.
Lol! Any search, even a covert "black bag" job requires a court authorization. Whether its a district federal court judge or the FISA court - the probable cause is demonstrated first. None of the people I know in that agency take invasion of privacy lightly. There are multiple levels of safeguards in place and they will (as appropriate) hang out to dry anyone who violates these laws/policies.
Lavabit is a good example of the Feds wanting to take away people's privacy by forcing the company to give up their encryption keys.
And there is PLENTY of legitimate uses of encryption. Businesses don't want their stuff out in the open, and there are strict rules regarding HIPPA type stuff. Corporate espionage is a big deal these days. The Chinese are always trying to get info on American business including through targeted attacks. Theres documents and stuff I'd like to keep on my phone I don't want people to have access to. Nothing illegal. Just nothing I want anyone but me having access to. Because its my data, and I get to decide that. My house could get burned down to the ground, and I need digital backups of important stuff.
So, no, wanting encryption doesn't mean you're a criminal or doing something wrong. LE aren't the only ones after data.
Lavabit is a good example of the Feds wanting to take away people's privacy by forcing the company to give up their encryption keys.
And there is PLENTY of legitimate uses of encryption. Businesses don't want their stuff out in the open, and there are strict rules regarding HIPPA type stuff. Corporate espionage is a big deal these days. The Chinese are always trying to get info on American business including through targeted attacks. Theres documents and stuff I'd like to keep on my phone I don't want people to have access to. Nothing illegal. Just nothing I want anyone but me having access to. Because its my data, and I get to decide that. My house could get burned down to the ground, and I need digital backups of important stuff.
So, no, wanting encryption doesn't mean you're a criminal or doing something wrong. LE aren't the only ones after data.
I completely understand and agree. But denying LE the ability to execute lawful warrants is still an issue that I believe needs to be addressed. I don't see that agency giving up the encryption to China or Microsoft. Could it happen? Of course. We've had people sell national secrets. But for Apple to say even they cannot crack it... I can see them enabling more than just the referenced pedophiles. For the system (society) to work someone must be trusted to hold the keys.
If I had all the answers for how matters like this could best be handled, I'd be a highly paid consultant instead of a public servant.
I completely understand and agree. But denying LE the ability to execute lawful warrants is still an issue that I believe needs to be addressed. I don't see that agency giving up the encryption to China or Microsoft. Could it happen? Of course. We've had people sell national secrets. But for Apple to say even they cannot crack it... I can see them enabling more than just the referenced pedophiles. For the system (society) to work someone must be trusted to hold the keys.
If I had all the answers for how matters like this could best be handled, I'd be a highly paid consultant instead of a public servant.
If Apple has a back door into the encryption on hardware, it's only a matter of time before someone discovers it and renders all encryption on all Apple devices vulnerable.
The name of the answer escapes me at the moment, I just woke up, but something about inevitability in discovery. Iirc you can force someone to give up a safe combination because the govt has possession over it and there are a limited number of combinations, so the only factor to opening it is time. I seem to recall that encryption passwords are the same thing.
Or maybe I'm completely misremembering things because I'm groggy and on meds right now.
Eta: Nevermind, it was never settled. Safes have a 5th amendment issue regarding ownership of a key it knowledge of the combination is admitting to owning the safe. Encryption passwords have the same issue, but the case I was thinking of, Fricosu, had the government prove the defendant owned and used the laptop. But before the issue could get to the appellate level, the password was given by one of the defendants without court orders.
Belmont31R
09-27-14, 15:33
If Apple has a back door into the encryption on hardware, it's only a matter of time before someone discovers it and renders all encryption on all Apple devices vulnerable.
The name of the answer escapes me at the moment, I just woke up, but something about inevitability in discovery. Iirc you can force someone to give up a safe combination because the govt has possession over it and there are a limited number of combinations, so the only factor to opening it is time. I seem to recall that encryption passwords are the same thing.
Or maybe I'm completely misremembering things because I'm groggy and on meds right now.
Thats why Apple patches the exploits people use to jail break their phones. The same vulnerability that allows the jail break can be used for other more nefarious purposes.
And if they have a backdoor to get around the passcode then someone else can use try to exploit that. Cutting themselves out of that loop removes another vulnerable area in the OS. Granted, its at the cost of LE sending a device and warrant to them but its better securing the tens of millions of other people who aren't the subject of a warrant or NSA snooping.
I'd rather them protect the masses than someone who might have CP on their phone. But thats just me.
Moose-Knuckle
09-27-14, 15:45
People who buy specific phones or computers because they are worried about LE searching it either have a hole in their tinfoil hats, or they are engaged in criminal activity.
Here it is for you in bold text Mr. and Mrs. America, a LEO claiming that only criminals and the mentally paranoid worry about their privacy. As a law enforcement professional of eleven years I'm telling you this should trouble you.
Question, which one is really the paranoid party here; the citizen attempting/wanting to protect their privacy or the authorities who suspect everyone of something?
But for us to protect society as a whole, we need to be able to gather evidence from criminal activity and use it to prosecute those who live outside our rules and laws.
"If it saves just one child."
Yup, those pesky constitutionally protected rights just keep getting in the way of saving the sheep herd from themselves . . .
Lol! Any search, even a covert "black bag" job requires a court authorization. Whether its a district federal court judge or the FISA court - the probable cause is demonstrated first. None of the people I know in that agency take invasion of privacy lightly. There are multiple levels of safeguards in place and they will (as appropriate) hang out to dry anyone who violates these laws/policies.
LOL! It is painfully obvious that you don't know what you don't know. Black bag jobs as they were called under the tranny were ILLEGAL and none of the information compiled was admissible in court. So it kind of makes obtaining a warrant null and void don't you think.
http://www.fbi.gov/foia/electronic-reading-room/black-bag-operations-1/view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bag_operation
Thats why Apple patches the exploits people use to jail break their phones. The same vulnerability that allows the jail break can be used for other more nefarious purposes.
And if they have a backdoor to get around the passcode then someone else can use try to exploit that. Cutting themselves out of that loop removes another vulnerable area in the OS. Granted, its at the cost of LE sending a device and warrant to them but its better securing the tens of millions of other people who aren't the subject of a warrant or NSA snooping.
I'd rather them protect the masses than someone who might have CP on their phone. But thats just me.
I agree.
It's far more likely I'll have my phone stolen and then the thief uses some Apple backdoor to decrypt my data and then steal my identity. I don't have anything illegal on my phone, but it has access to certain documents and my email, which means de facto access to every website I go to, from m4c to ebenefits to my bank. Why? They send confirmation via TEXT. You can reset passwords via EMAIL.
Physical access to an unencrypted phone essentially gives you carte blanche to ruin the actual owner's life and probably make a bit of money too.
Law enforcement concerns need to be backseat to every day concerns.
And really, just rent some NSA server time for brute forcing. Most people have terrible passwords. Or use their supposed AES exploit.
Belmont31R
09-27-14, 15:55
Here it is for you in bold text Mr. and Mrs. America, a LEO claiming that only criminals and the mentally paranoid worry about their privacy. As a law enforcement professional of eleven years I'm telling you this should trouble you.
Question, which one is really the paranoid party here; the citizen attempting/wanting to protect their privacy or the authorities who suspect everyone of something?
"If it saves just one child."
Yup, those pesky constitutionally protected rights just keep getting in the way of saving the sheep herd from themselves . . .
LOL! It is painfully obvious that you don't know what you don't know. Black bag jobs as they were called under the tranny were ILLEGAL and none of the information compiled was admissible in court. So it kind of makes obtaining a warrant null and void don't you think.
http://www.fbi.gov/foia/electronic-reading-room/black-bag-operations-1/view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bag_operation
The funny thing is they can't protect society as a whole. Not even close. Theres plenty of court cases that say as much. My opinion, and that of the Supreme Court is that they can't. Saying they need this stuff to protect us AS A WHOLE is asinine. They can't do it. I'd never expect that in the first place but its not possible. I'd rather be able to choose to my own phone, and what the manufacturer offers to the best of their abilities than hinder myself because somewhere some department wants to look at someones phone because of some CP.
Basically saying my information needs to be vulnerable because someone else might have broken the law. I don't think so. Same as saying I shouldn't have self defense measures at home because someone else is getting their house searched, and so NO ONE should have defenses which might hinder the execution of a warrant. Like reinforced doors, motion lights, dogs, guns, ect. Same thing with technology. People take precautions, and saying it shouldn't exist because it might hinder LE in completely unrelated situations is laughable.
Here it is for you in bold text Mr. and Mrs. America, a LEO claiming that only criminals and the mentally paranoid worry about their privacy. As a law enforcement professional of eleven years I'm telling you this should trouble you.
Question, which one is really the paranoid party here; the citizen attempting/wanting to protect their privacy or the authorities who suspect everyone of something?
If you believe that LE is out to get you, or to access your phone and you are not a criminal... then you are the paranoid person in this discussion. I never said the rest of us cannot or should not worry about privacy. I take my oath (and the one I swore when I was on active duty) very seriously. I help protect your Constitutional rights and everyone else's every day. You and the others bashing LE in this thread would do well to go spend time with your local agencies. Go on ride-alongs, citizens academies, etc. Take the time to realize that 99% of us care just as much as you do about our rights and protecting our way of life. Sure there are bad LEO's out there - and we hate them more than you do for a variety of reasons. But so many people these days are falling prey to what they see on the web or in the media. Don't regurgitate bad information/rumors - seek out the truth yourself.
My point was not that LE should have access to everyone's telephone. My statement was that anyone who is worried about their phone being searched has a reason. Please give me a reason that "Mr and Mrs America" should be worried about LE searching his or her phone. But before you give us that reason... you can't use conspiracy theory BS.
"If it saves just one child."
Yup, those pesky constitutionally protected rights just keep getting in the way of saving the sheep herd from themselves . . .
Nice try - I never said our rights as citizens get in the way of anything. I am simply offering a more realistic interpretation of the FBI Director's viewpoint that doesn't include the Baker Act/Conspiracy Theory/The Govt is out to get us all/Black Helicopters spin on it. The fact is criminals use cellular telephones. They have evidence on those phones. If that evidence is inaccessible, then don't get upset when a drug dealer, or a kidnapper, or a murderer, or a bank robber, etc. goes free. There is and has been a legal, appropriate procedure for LE to obtain that information. If you take that away, then there are consequences. If you're okay with a criminal who hurt a family member walking free because the evidence on his phone can't be presented, then that's your right. I'm just telling everyone there is no free lunch - every thing we do or allow has a consequence.
And for the record, I welcomed the court's decision to require a search warrant for phone searches. Previously a cell phone could be searched incident to arrest. The problem I had with that was it could be used for any arrest - including traffic infractions, DUI's, etc. Those crimes are not related to cell phones. Now, if I'm investigating a gang banger who is suspected in a homicide... and we have word that he has photos/videos on his phone that prove that case, I have no problem swearing out a search warrant affidavit to get it. I don't need to get it right there on scene. Does that make my job more difficult? You bet. Does that bother me? Not in the least. I've spent my entire adult life protecting our Constitution, so excuse me if I take offense to someone who has never met me accusing me otherwise. It's you who doesn't know what you don't know.
Did you even happen to notice my signature line? It's not a sound bite or quote. It's my own words, and I use them to help liberal idiots better grasp why the 2nd Amendment is not open for compromise.
LOL! It is painfully obvious that you don't know what you don't know. Black bag jobs as they were called under the tranny were ILLEGAL and none of the information compiled was admissible in court. So it kind of makes obtaining a warrant null and void don't you think.
http://www.fbi.gov/foia/electronic-reading-room/black-bag-operations-1/view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bag_operation
I don't know huh... actually you are the one who is ignorant. Illegal "black bag" jobs are a black eye in out nation's history - history. Did you see what I wrote there? History. I thought we were talking about the here and now. Did they have iPhones in 1967? So I'm curious... other than reading about them on the internet, what experience or involvement have you had with matters like these? Have you ever served a warrant? Have you been the affiant on a warrant? I'd bet a months pay you only know what you find on the conspiracy theory sites or in Hollywood dramatizations.
From your own link: "Use by the FBI[edit]
In black bag operations, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents illegally entered offices of targeted individuals and organizations, and photographed information found in their records. This practice was used by the FBI from 1942 until 1967. In July 1966, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover ordered the practice discontinued.[3] The use of "black bag jobs" by the FBI was declared unconstitutional by the United States Supreme Court on 19 June 1972 in the Plamondon case, United States v. U.S. District Court, 407 U.S. 297. The FBI still carries out numerous "black bag" entry-and-search missions, in which the search is covert and the target of the investigation is not informed that the search took place. If the investigation involves a criminal matter a judicial warrant is required; in national security cases the operation must be approved by a secret body called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.[4]"
It ain't so much I have stuff to hide, it's I have stuff that is the business of NOBODY.
And I have a RIGHT to keep my business private. It's one of the few things I actually have a right to...unlike healthcare, other people's money, free food, free housing and things of that sort.
I also don't need to PROVE I'm not a criminal to have my rights respected, it doesn't work that way.
Moose-Knuckle
09-27-14, 19:35
If you believe that LE is out to get you, or to access your phone and you are not a criminal... then you are the paranoid person in this discussion.
If you feel that citizens have something to hide and they have to prove that they are in fact not a criminal by subjecting every aspect of their electronic personas to the likes of the FBI then you are a statist suffering from paranoia.
You and the others bashing LE in this thread would do well to go spend time with your local agencies. Go on ride-alongs, citizens academies, etc. Take the time to realize that 99% of us care just as much as you do about our rights and protecting our way of life. Sure there are bad LEO's out there - and we hate them more than you do for a variety of reasons. But so many people these days are falling prey to what they see on the web or in the media. Don't regurgitate bad information/rumors - seek out the truth yourself.
Um, just who is "bashing LE" in this thread? The fact that you immediately jump to this conclusion when people are discussing their personal rights is abysmal. I see you failed to read the whole of my post that you quoted . . .
As a law enforcement professional of eleven years I'm telling you this should trouble you.
My statement was that anyone who is worried about their phone being searched has a reason.
Wow, just wow I mean there is no point to even attempt to converse with someone with this mindset. It really goes to show just how far down the slope we have slipped.
Please give me a reason that "Mr and Mrs America" should be worried about LE searching his or her phone. But before you give us that reason... you can't use conspiracy theory BS.
LOL, "conspiracy theory BS"! Just had to go there huh? You want a reason, here is one off the top of my head . . .
“The right to be left alone—the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by a free people.”
—Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438 (1928)
Nice try - I never said our rights as citizens get in the way of anything. I am simply offering a more realistic interpretation of the FBI Director's viewpoint that doesn't include the Baker Act/Conspiracy Theory/The Govt is out to get us all/Black Helicopters spin on it.
Talk about your nice trys . . . Black Helicopters? Well you are the only one to have mentioned them in a thread about domestic spying. I don't know much about them but I have it on pretty good authority that OBL does . . .
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/Stealth_Black_Hawk_UBL_Kill_Op_2.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/Stealth_Black_Hawk_UBL_Kill_Op_2.jpg.html)
The fact is criminals use cellular telephones. They have evidence on those phones. If that evidence is inaccessible, then don't get upset when a drug dealer, or a kidnapper, or a murderer, or a bank robber, etc. goes free. There is and has been a legal, appropriate procedure for LE to obtain that information. If you take that away, then there are consequences. If you're okay with a criminal who hurt a family member walking free because the evidence on his phone can't be presented, then that's your right. I'm just telling everyone there is no free lunch - every thing we do or allow has a consequence.
Criminals also use firearms in the commission of crimes, as well as automobiles, knives, rocks, and pointy sticks. Let’s just regulate/ban all those things in the name of public safety. Where does it end?
There are consequences to eroding freedoms and rights, history is chocked full of examples of the aftermaths.
I don't know huh... actually you are the one who is ignorant. Illegal "black bag" jobs are a black eye in out nation's history - history. Did you see what I wrote there? History. I thought we were talking about the here and now. Did they have iPhones in 1967?
That is correct you don't, maybe now you do since you seem to have read a link I provided? You stated earlier that the court had to sign off on the black bag ops hence that portion of my post. Black bag operations are just ONE example. You know about the modern ones because it is the reason for this thread. Patriot Act? Whistle blower Eric Snowden? NSA rooms in AT&T buildings, data mining, the list goes on and on . . .
So I'm curious... other than reading about them on the internet, what experience or involvement have you had with matters like these? Have you ever served a warrant? Have you been the affiant on a warrant? I'd bet a months pay you only know what you find on the conspiracy theory sites or in Hollywood dramatizations.
Not much, I don't spy on Americans.
As for warrants I process a metric shit ton of warrants and PC affidavits a year on the jail/transfer side of things. I'm not an investigator nor do I execute warrants. And though I have been known to enjoy a good Hollywood dramatization from time to time you will find that I have not mentioned or linked any in this thread.
MountainRaven
09-27-14, 19:43
Illegal "black bag" jobs are a black eye in out nation's history - history. Did you see what I wrote there? History.
"The past is never dead. It's not even past."
Not much, I don't spy on Americans.
As for warrants I process a metric shit ton of warrants and PC affidavits a year on the jail/transfer side of things. I'm not an investigator nor do I execute warrants. And though I have been known to enjoy a good Hollywood dramatization from time to time you will find that I have not mentioned or linked any in this thread.
I wonder if this qualifies you for a months pay from El Cid.
I guess he could pull the "I only said 'I'd bet', not 'I bet'" card...
ForTehNguyen
09-27-14, 21:10
god forbid they knew how to fight crime before smartphones were around
Okay... perhaps I'm not being clear. Let's try this one last time. In no way am I suggesting anyone sign away their rights, or be subjugated, or anything of that nature. I value all our rights, including privacy, as much as anyone here.
I'll use myself as an example. I have a cell phone that does not have the new unbreakable IOS encryption. Therefore, LE has the ability, whether by their own techs or by sending the phone to the manufacturer, to get into my phone and retrieve files. But I don't believe I have any reason to worry about that because I am not a criminal. If I am not engaged in illicit activity, then I have no reason to be concerned that LE will ever have the slightest desire to download my phone. So, if I'm not a criminal... then the only other plausible reason for me to be concerned to the point of being upset would be if I was a conspiracy theorist. I would not ever allow LE to view my phone - not even "because I have nothing to hide." As Steyr said - it's nobody's business.
Even if the FBI gets what it wants with regard to the new iPhone, we have not lost anything in terms of privacy. We will be exactly where we are today. Nothing is being lost or given away. They still need a search warrant - period.
And yes - I can assure you based upon my own personal experiences, a court order is obtained PRIOR to any black bag jobs happening in the CONUS by any LE agency.
That's why I don't understand all the hatred and ranting over the FBI's request to Apple. They are not asking to be exempt from the proper due process of law. They are not asking for more access than currently exists with every other phone. I have plenty of good friends in that agency, and I can assure you they take the job and oath very seriously. They have no interest in violating anyone's civil rights, and are responsible for investigating LEO's who do. I cannot imagine the people in this thread saying things like "F*** the agents" have ever even met one in person.
And yes Koshinn - in addition to your legal interpretation of my "betting" words... if MK is a CO/ jailer, then it's not in any way the same thing. Anyone can read warrants/affidavits as they are posted online in most states. Processing warrants as prisoners are received/moved is not the same as going out, identifying a criminal, gathering evidence to obtain probable cause, typing an affidavit, presenting that affidavit to a prosecutor, and then swearing to a judge that it's all true under penalty of prison. Then executing the warrant during which you seriously invade a person's privacy. Even though we do so legally, we still don't take it lightly. I've even had to pull a LEO aside during a search because she was demanding the resident (who was eventually indicted) produce a "permit" for the Glock we found in the home. The resident was not a felon, and being Florida, there is no such thing as a permit for owning a gun. The LEO was educated and apologized to the resident after our private conversation. Even in her case she thought she was doing the right thing - but if any of us had discovered later that she seized the weapon under those conditions, we would have been morally and legally obligated to report it. Whether she would have just lost her job or done jail time I cannot say. That's a decision for the prosecutors.
I have no problem with my job being more difficult if it safeguards the rights of us all. But as someone who is part of the system, I don't see any danger or erosion of our rights by Apple granting the director's request. If they don't, then such is life. LE will keep doing everything we can to keep our neighborhoods safe. We'll figure out a way to get there as we always have. But nobody is asking for a waiver to our civil rights.
MountainRaven
09-28-14, 00:01
So you know Due Process is being followed because you've partaken of every single "Black Bag" since J. Edgar Hoover ended them and the Supreme Court banned them? Didn't some guy flee to Russia after publishing documents showing that isn't true?
I mean, you do realize that you're asking us to trust a government that supports international terrorist organizations, spies on its own citizens without warrants, intentionally allowed disease to spread within a target population, has tested nuclear, radiological, and chemical weapons against its own citizens without their knowledge, has tested hallucinogens on its own citizens without their knowledge, smuggled and sold drugs to its own citizens against its own laws, never met a treaty with aboriginal nations that it didn't intend to break... oh, and the only government to actually use nuclear weapons and to have used them against a civilian populace.
No, better that government should be rendered utterly incapable of violating its own laws than risk giving it the chance to do so of its own volition.
Belmont31R
09-28-14, 01:44
Okay... perhaps I'm not being clear. Let's try this one last time. In no way am I suggesting anyone sign away their rights, or be subjugated, or anything of that nature. I value all our rights, including privacy, as much as anyone here.
I'll use myself as an example. I have a cell phone that does not have the new unbreakable IOS encryption. Therefore, LE has the ability, whether by their own techs or by sending the phone to the manufacturer, to get into my phone and retrieve files. But I don't believe I have any reason to worry about that because I am not a criminal. If I am not engaged in illicit activity, then I have no reason to be concerned that LE will ever have the slightest desire to download my phone. So, if I'm not a criminal... then the only other plausible reason for me to be concerned to the point of being upset would be if I was a conspiracy theorist. I would not ever allow LE to view my phone - not even "because I have nothing to hide." As Steyr said - it's nobody's business.
Even if the FBI gets what it wants with regard to the new iPhone, we have not lost anything in terms of privacy. We will be exactly where we are today. Nothing is being lost or given away. They still need a search warrant - period.
And yes - I can assure you based upon my own personal experiences, a court order is obtained PRIOR to any black bag jobs happening in the CONUS by any LE agency.
That's why I don't understand all the hatred and ranting over the FBI's request to Apple. They are not asking to be exempt from the proper due process of law. They are not asking for more access than currently exists with every other phone. I have plenty of good friends in that agency, and I can assure you they take the job and oath very seriously. They have no interest in violating anyone's civil rights, and are responsible for investigating LEO's who do. I cannot imagine the people in this thread saying things like "F*** the agents" have ever even met one in person.
And yes Koshinn - in addition to your legal interpretation of my "betting" words... if MK is a CO/ jailer, then it's not in any way the same thing. Anyone can read warrants/affidavits as they are posted online in most states. Processing warrants as prisoners are received/moved is not the same as going out, identifying a criminal, gathering evidence to obtain probable cause, typing an affidavit, presenting that affidavit to a prosecutor, and then swearing to a judge that it's all true under penalty of prison. Then executing the warrant during which you seriously invade a person's privacy. Even though we do so legally, we still don't take it lightly. I've even had to pull a LEO aside during a search because she was demanding the resident (who was eventually indicted) produce a "permit" for the Glock we found in the home. The resident was not a felon, and being Florida, there is no such thing as a permit for owning a gun. The LEO was educated and apologized to the resident after our private conversation. Even in her case she thought she was doing the right thing - but if any of us had discovered later that she seized the weapon under those conditions, we would have been morally and legally obligated to report it. Whether she would have just lost her job or done jail time I cannot say. That's a decision for the prosecutors.
I have no problem with my job being more difficult if it safeguards the rights of us all. But as someone who is part of the system, I don't see any danger or erosion of our rights by Apple granting the director's request. If they don't, then such is life. LE will keep doing everything we can to keep our neighborhoods safe. We'll figure out a way to get there as we always have. But nobody is asking for a waiver to our civil rights.
I already mentioned that people have other interests in safeguarding their data besides keeping LE out. LE aren't the only ones who [might] have an interest in whats on someones phone, and the same route Apple takes to bypass the lock screen could potentially be used by other people who aren't Apple.
LE's interest here should not ever trump the right's of private people and businesses to decide how they safeguard their property.
The FBI has already demonstrated they will compromise the ability of non-criminals to safeguard their property when they went after Lavabit. They are not the heroes of our rights who go to work everyday thinking of ways to safeguard our rights. Our rights are there to keep them from going too far.
I'll use myself as an example. I have a cell phone that does not have the new unbreakable IOS encryption. Therefore, LE has the ability, whether by their own techs or by sending the phone to the manufacturer, to get into my phone and retrieve files. But I don't believe I have any reason to worry about that because I am not a criminal. If I am not engaged in illicit activity, then I have no reason to be concerned that LE will ever have the slightest desire to download my phone. So, if I'm not a criminal... then the only other plausible reason for me to be concerned to the point of being upset would be if I was a conspiracy theorist.
First, nothing is "unbreakable", it's just not breakable faster than brute-forcing the password, which can be relatively fast because again, people have terrible passwords. And if the password is just a 5 digit PIN or some android unlock grid pattern, the brute force would take a minute or two.
Second,
It's far more likely I'll have my phone stolen and then the thief uses some Apple backdoor to decrypt my data and then steal my identity. I don't have anything illegal on my phone, but it has access to certain documents and my email, which means de facto access to every website I go to, from m4c to ebenefits to my bank. Why? They send confirmation via TEXT. You can reset passwords via EMAIL.
Physical access to an unencrypted phone essentially gives you carte blanche to ruin the actual owner's life and probably make a bit of money too.
Law enforcement concerns need to be backseat to every day concerns.
Straight Shooter
09-28-14, 06:53
The very notion, the very idea that ANY law enforcement actually believes that they have legal,and MORAL right, to know everything I have on a phone, in my wallet, on my person, in my house or property is un-damn-believable. And "if I got nothing to hide" I shouldn't mind them knowing/looking.
Im trying to find the right curse words to use here, but Im so flabbergasted at the moment, Ill just stick to the basics and say **** YOU, **** THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON, **** THE GUYS BEHIND YOU, AND **** EVERYBODY THAT LOOKS LIKE YOU.
It just seems we are speeding towards a VIOLENT showdown on what cops think they should be able to do, and what people like me aint putting up with. You are FULL OF SHIT invading my privacy, and **** ANY OF YOU who think you should be able to. Or, that Im hiding something. Go ****in live in China or Russia or somewhere where that shit is the norm. IT AINT HERE.
davidjinks
09-28-14, 07:20
Excellent!
The very notion, the very idea that ANY law enforcement actually believes that they have legal,and MORAL right, to know everything I have on a phone, in my wallet, on my person, in my house or property is un-damn-believable. And "if I got nothing to hide" I shouldn't mind them knowing/looking.
Im trying to find the right curse words to use here, but Im so flabbergasted at the moment, Ill just stick to the basics and say **** YOU, **** THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON, **** THE GUYS BEHIND YOU, AND **** EVERYBODY THAT LOOKS LIKE YOU.
It just seems we are speeding towards a VIOLENT showdown on what cops think they should be able to do, and what people like me aint putting up with. You are FULL OF SHIT invading my privacy, and **** ANY OF YOU who think you should be able to. Or, that Im hiding something. Go ****in live in China or Russia or somewhere where that shit is the norm. IT AINT HERE.
It always amazes me at how daft most people are in regards to government reach, want, needs and desires as well as that of LE.
Straight Shooter
09-28-14, 07:24
Having just come in from a looong 12 hr shift...I don't know if you are agreeing with me, or calling me an ass.
davidjinks
09-28-14, 07:31
I'm agreeing with you.
If I was gonna call you an ass..... :)
Having just come in from a looong 12 hr shift...I don't know if you are agreeing with me, or calling me an ass.
Straight Shooter
09-28-14, 07:52
O...GOOD! Thank you sir...Im too pooped to comprehend much right now.
My point was not that LE should have access to everyone's telephone. My statement was that anyone who is worried about their phone being searched has a reason. Please give me a reason that "Mr and Mrs America" should be worried about LE searching his or her phone. But before you give us that reason... you can't use conspiracy theory BS.
How about the police erasing video evidence off of people's phones so that it can't be used to prosecute them for crimes under color of law? It happens and is not a conspiracy theory.
So you know Due Process is being followed because you've partaken of every single "Black Bag" since J. Edgar Hoover ended them and the Supreme Court banned them? Didn't some guy flee to Russia after publishing documents showing that isn't true?
I mean, you do realize that you're asking us to trust a government that supports international terrorist organizations, spies on its own citizens without warrants, intentionally allowed disease to spread within a target population, has tested nuclear, radiological, and chemical weapons against its own citizens without their knowledge, has tested hallucinogens on its own citizens without their knowledge, smuggled and sold drugs to its own citizens against its own laws, never met a treaty with aboriginal nations that it didn't intend to break... oh, and the only government to actually use nuclear weapons and to have used them against a civilian populace.
No, better that government should be rendered utterly incapable of violating its own laws than risk giving it the chance to do so of its own volition.
The incidents you mention are related to CIA and NSA operations - and I don't support them. But the FBI and its people follow the rules and have safeguards in place to avoid violating civil rights to a point that their job is more difficult. And that's okay with them and me.
As for using nukes... seriously? You would have preferred losing half a million troops invading Japan? And bombs back then were not precise enough to discriminate between civilians and military operating in the same area. They are now, and as a veteran of the USAF I can tell you I've seen strike missions aborted by commanders because the risk of collateral damage was too great. Just because some haji asshole parked his anti-aircraft gun next to a school. Your use of the bombing of Japan is disingenuous.
I never said we should trust the government. I said if you are not engaged in criminal activity, then you have no reason to worry about LE wanting to invade your privacy. It's like talking to a wall in this thread...
How about the police erasing video evidence off of people's phones so that it can't be used to prosecute them for crimes under color of law? It happens and is not a conspiracy theory.
They are the kind of LEO's who make us all look bad and they should go to prison. My coworkers and I conduct ourselves in such a manner that we don't care if we are being recorded. We also try to get rid of the shitbag cops who violate the law. We are not all like that - in fact most of us are not like that.
The very notion, the very idea that ANY law enforcement actually believes that they have legal,and MORAL right, to know everything I have on a phone, in my wallet, on my person, in my house or property is un-damn-believable. And "if I got nothing to hide" I shouldn't mind them knowing/looking.
Im trying to find the right curse words to use here, but Im so flabbergasted at the moment, Ill just stick to the basics and say **** YOU, **** THE HORSE YOU RODE IN ON, **** THE GUYS BEHIND YOU, AND **** EVERYBODY THAT LOOKS LIKE YOU.
It just seems we are speeding towards a VIOLENT showdown on what cops think they should be able to do, and what people like me aint putting up with. You are FULL OF SHIT invading my privacy, and **** ANY OF YOU who think you should be able to. Or, that Im hiding something. Go ****in live in China or Russia or somewhere where that shit is the norm. IT AINT HERE.
That is not what I said. Try reading it without your anti-govt filter clouding your judgment. Not once did I say you should not mind them looking. What I said was if you're not engaged in criminal activity, then you have no reason to expect LE to want to see your phone.
As for your vulgar and childish comments - right back at ya sport! I'm reminded why I used to avoid GD - too many anarchist morons who think the govt is always out to get them.
Just in case you're running low on supplies for headgear: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Reynolds-Wrap-Aluminum-Foil-250-sq-ft/21129696
I'm out - y'all have fun with your "the world is crumbling around us" circle jerk.
They are the kind of LEO's who make us all look bad and they should go to prison. My coworkers and I conduct ourselves in such a manner that we don't care if we are being recorded. We also try to get rid of the shitbag cops who violate the law. We are not all like that - in fact most of us are not.
I agree with you. I was just providing an example that happens all too frequently. I wasn't insinuating that all cops are like that, but there plenty who are.
MountainRaven
09-28-14, 10:59
The incidents you mention are related to CIA and NSA operations - and I don't support them. But the FBI and its people follow the rules and have safeguards in place to avoid violating civil rights to a point that their job is more difficult. And that's okay with them and me.
As for using nukes... seriously? You would have preferred losing half a million troops invading Japan? And bombs back then were not precise enough to discriminate between civilians and military operating in the same area. They are now, and as a veteran of the USAF I can tell you I've seen strike missions aborted by commanders because the risk of collateral damage was too great. Just because some haji asshole parked his anti-aircraft gun next to a school. Your use of the bombing of Japan is disingenuous.
I never said we should trust the government. I said if you are not engaged in criminal activity, then you have no reason to worry about LE wanting to invade your privacy. It's like talking to a wall in this thread...
We were using firebombs in residential areas against a populace we knew was using wood and paper to build their homes - where the most severe penalties were for arson and the most frightening specter was of cities burning, because the cities were made of wood and paper. The factories weren't - not that much raw material was getting to them and not that much war materiel was leaving.
While the popular myth is that Japan surrendered because of the nukes, the historical record does not support this myth. The Japanese had no idea what had happened and the firebombing campaigns were causing more damage. No, the nukes were a redux of the firebombing of Dresden: An effort to impress (and warn) the Soviet Union with our military capabilities. Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union declared war against Japan and because their finely honed blitzkrieg machine had gone from turning Germans into hamburger to turning Japanese into hamburger - because the Red Army destroyed the cream of the Imperial Japanese Army, the army still holding Manchuria, Korea, and much of the rest of China, in one month - and because as much as the Japanese didn't like Americans, they hated communists and Russians even more. It was a convergence of interests between Japan and the United States: They didn't want to be occupied by the Soviets, they didn't want to be communist, they didn't want Russian overlords, we didn't want them to be split in twain as was happening in Germany, we didn't want them to have so much as a toe-hold in East Asia, like the hold they had over Eastern and Central Europe. All that had to be done was for us both to agree that Japan lost the war and the US won and that was that.
Point-being now as always: Our government cannot be trusted. Give them a capability and they will use it, like a kid with a brand new hammer and absentee parents.
And I don't think you've noticed but LE is not the golden child of defending the civil liberties of We, the People. There's a reason why LE organizations and LEOs are favorite targets of groups like the ACLU.
I'm out - y'all have fun with your "the world is crumbling around us" circle jerk.
Does that mean that you're done with this forum? Because that's pretty much what GD is, here.
Japan surrendered because the Soviet Union declared war against Japan and because their finely honed blitzkrieg machine had gone from turning Germans into hamburger to turning Japanese into hamburger
Please cite your evidence this is actually fact and not revisionist history hyperbole. This was most likely a consideration, however it certainly was not the sole, nor the largest, single factor in their decision to surrender.
Please cite your evidence this is actually fact and not revisionist history hyperbole. This was most likely a consideration, however it certainly was not the sole, nor the largest, single factor in their decision to surrender.
Probably had far more to do with the fact that the Japanese were hoping the Russian might broker a surrender deal between them and the US and instead declared war and started seizing troops and territory. The Japanese might not have fully comprehended the bomb, but they understood it meant they were ****ed and there would be no single "blaze of glory" invasion from the south to sacrifice themselves to.
It was either going to be an endless campaign of destruction from the air or a US invasion from the south and a Soviet invasion in the north. Japan made the best decision based upon the few shitty cards they still had left to play.
MountainRaven
09-28-14, 13:34
Please cite your evidence this is actually fact and not revisionist history hyperbole. This was most likely a consideration, however it certainly was not the sole, nor the largest, single factor in their decision to surrender.
All history is always being revised. Otherwise we would accept that slavery is OK, persecuting Jews and Christians is OK (until you convert to Christianity), that aboriginal nations were faithless savages, &c., &c., &c.
Here's an essay (http://www.japanfocus.org/site/view/2501) with citations.
The author's conclusion:
The argument presented by Asada and Frank that the atomic bombs rather than Soviet entry into the war had a more decisive effect on Japan’s decision to surrender cannot be supported. The Hiroshima bomb, although it heightened the sense of urgency to seek the termination of the war, did not prompt the Japanese government to take any immediate action that repudiated the previous policy of seeking Moscow’s mediation. Contrary to the contention advanced by Asada and Frank, there is no evidence to show that the Hiroshima bomb led either Togo or the emperor to accept the Potsdam terms. On the contrary, Togo’s urgent telegram to Sato on August 7 indicates that, despite the Hiroshima bomb, they continued to stay the previous course. The effect of the Nagasaki bomb was negligible. It did not change the political alignment one way or the other. Even Anami’s fantastic suggestion that the United States had more than 100 atomic bombs and planned to bomb Tokyo next did not change the opinions of either the peace party or the war party at all.
Rather, what decisively changed the views of the Japanese ruling elite was the Soviet entry into the war. It catapulted the Japanese government into taking immediate action. For the first time, it forced the government squarely to confront the issue of whether it should accept the Potsdam terms. In the tortuous discussions from August 9 through August 14, the peace party, motivated by a profound sense of betrayal, fear of Soviet influence on occupation policy, and above all by a desperate desire to preserve the imperial house, finally staged a conspiracy to impose the “emperor’s sacred decision” and accept the Potsdam terms, believing that under the circumstances surrendering to the United States would best assure the preservation of the imperial house and save the emperor.
This is, of course, not to deny completely the effect of the atomic bomb on Japan’s policymakers. It certainly injected a sense of urgency in finding an acceptable end to the war. Kido stated that while the peace party and the war party had previously been equally balanced in the scale, the atomic bomb helped to tip the balance in favor of the peace party.[100] It would be more accurate to say that the Soviet entry into the war, adding to that tipped scale, then completely toppled the scale itself.
Ned Christiansen
09-28-14, 14:34
I think everyone is operating on the assumption that what Apple has said about the new product is true. It's probably a big lie. Access? They either already have it all set up and are telling us what we want to hear or will cave the minute someone tells them, "be a team player here-- or else". They are after all a very interested party in this.
montanadave
09-28-14, 15:16
Please cite your evidence this is actually fact and not revisionist history hyperbole. This was most likely a consideration, however it certainly was not the sole, nor the largest, single factor in their decision to surrender.
Article from Foreign Policy on the subject: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_didnt_beat_japan_nuclear_world_war_ii?wp_login_redirect=0
history is being changed and your idea of revising is changing !
again show proof of your Russia made them surrender cause there is no proof !!!!! sorry mr progressive you can't lie or change history when its been recorded and you can't try to LIE and say it needs to be revised and give STUPID examples
and sorry you are once again way off base with your theory of slaves ? the revision that is happening is things like Lincoln was a bad guy and did not believe they were equal which is happening now
history of slaves is what it is and the fact they ignore complete parts like all the white slaves and blacks owned slaves and look up who the first legal slave owners were to learn history !
the people I lived with in the Caribbean understood slavery much better than most all US folks I have ever talked with about it and the history of how bad slavery was in say Brazil or other places and that includes the Spanish who were the worst of all and all through Central America what the Spanish did etc...
the left wants to change all history and you can't change history but if you try to revise it to fit something else that is changing it !!!!
All history is always being revised. Otherwise we would accept that slavery is OK, persecuting Jews and Christians is OK (until you convert to Christianity), that aboriginal nations were faithless savages, &c., &c., &c.
Here's an essay (http://www.japanfocus.org/site/view/2501) with citations.
The author's conclusion:
yes exactly my point from a liberal rag backed by liberal paper promoting NEW revised history to destroy America and promote progressive socialist views !
and by a guy who is for wealth redistribution and hates business and thinks power should be taken from them and given to the gov !!!!!
Article from Foreign Policy on the subject: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_didnt_beat_japan_nuclear_world_war_ii?wp_login_redirect=0
montanadave
09-28-14, 17:02
yes exactly my point from a liberal rag backed by liberal paper promoting NEW revised history to destroy America and promote progressive socialist views !
and by a guy who is for wealth redistribution and hates business and thinks power should be taken from them and given to the gov !!!!!
Take your meds.
Aug 6 and 9th we dropped bombs !
Aug 9th Russia decided to declare war and it lasted for 3 weeks basically
they saw what we did to them and knew they were going to surrender and jumped in AFTER to try to take credit pumping there chest like they do saying see we scared them into ending the war
look at the history of WWII in Europe and Russia and what we did to help end the war
so on Aug 15th Japan surrenders
now back up about 2 days and read what the basis of Gyokuon-hōsō was about !!!!! this was the emperor saying why remember it was recored and had to be sneaked out of the palace
In the speech, Hirohito notes that the war is "Our sincere desire to ensure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia […]", but "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage".
He then cites "Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives", referring to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that occurred days before. He, however, never mentioned the Soviet invasion that had also begun a few days before. Finally, and most famously, he says: "However, it is according to the dictates of time and fate that We have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering what is unsufferable."
so straight from the emperors mouth WHY they were to surrender in a few days and the bombing was the message NOTHING about the Russians declaring war NOTHING
so sadly the Russians have not forgotten this and want to change history and sadly they are because of the socialist progressives (communists) that are now in this country and who state things like the war was ended by Russia and not the bombs !!!!
progressives or communist and left are trying to CHANGE history !!!! well lucky the transcripts of the emperors words on why is history
this is where true Americans could loose the long war with communists because they are all over disguising themselves as Americans but are not they want the downfall of this county and are still at war to destroy it sadly half our country let there guard down
inhale 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8
exhale 8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1
I feel better. Now, about that FBI privacy thing...
did not mention you just the paper is ran by a radical liberal and printed by a super liberal paper and you turn it into a personal attack ?
funny how libs act when you put facts in front of them and they get cornered knowing they are wrong they have to resort to personal attacks and name calling sad little life they must live !
Take your meds.
All history is always being revised. Otherwise we would accept that slavery is OK, persecuting Jews and Christians is OK (until you convert to Christianity), that aboriginal nations were faithless savages, &c., &c., &c.
Here's an essay (http://www.japanfocus.org/site/view/2501) with citations.
The author's conclusion:
Thanks, but he contradicts himself in that excerpt. It is as I thought and SAUG stated. Lots of things that added up to "we better surrender." The bombs were indeed quite effective at ending the war and saving a ton of young American lives.
But this is a side discussion and not really pertinent to the intent of the threat so let's just leave it be........
funny how libs act when you put facts in front of them and they get cornered knowing they are wrong they have to resort to personal attacks and name calling sad little life they must live !
Conservatives do that too. Pretty much everyone does, actually.
who started it ?
and even if some do not a excuse to do it here especially
Conservatives do that too. Pretty much everyone does, actually.
Hope this helps allay some concerns. That is not the agency we should be worrying about wanting to invade our privacy.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fbi-director-james-comey-on-privacy-and-surveillance/
kinda a update to this
A Circuit Court judge in Virginia has ruled that fingerprints are not protected by the Fifth Amendment, a decision that has clear privacy implications for fingerprint-protected devices like newer iPhones and iPads.
http://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protected-by-fifth-amendment/
Belmont31R
11-03-14, 01:58
What this all boils down to is reducing the ability of citizens to protect themselves because the government has law enforcement desires where the method of protection being used could interfere with the ability of law enforcement to do certain functions.
The same thing can be said about many other freedoms we enjoy. Guns, encryption, security cameras, door locks, windows, blinds, backpacks, witnesses, lawyers, ect.
A lot of things can get in the way of LE 'just trying to do their jobs.' I get sick of LE complaining they don't have enough dominance on force or freedom or rights get in the way of them doing their jobs. As if they are these angels of society who do no wrong and we don't need these things ourselves.
Yes, government is a balance between no laws, and the rule of law. But LE is constantly used an excuse when it comes to banning or restricting our rights. Not for even obviously dangerous things anymore. But it seems if LE has any impedance to putting people in jail its something that needs to be done away with. Now we are talking about things like encryption. On one hand we have the NSA, who is supposedly around to combat cyber terrorism and such. Yet the very people these NSA folks are supposedly around to protect get attack by the FBI for daring to protect themselves?
We have all these branches of gov who try to justify themselves, and they aren't on the same page. If we need protection in a cyber environment then we justify the NSA. If we need the NSA because of a cyber threat then its only logical that people would use encryption which is like blackout curtains of WW2. But then the FBI comes along, and says we need to take down the curtains and let the light shine bright. So we have a rabid dog chasing its own tail where the gov is making hypocrites of themselves. Of course the gov will win, and we lose. Always how it works. They, the gov, win, while we the people, lose. And we're not really any more safe now. Not by anything they have done.
And none of this is how a free and open republic is supposed to function. The founding of our country was done out in the open. We have things like the Federalist papers. People made their arguments for a certain type of government out in the open. Now we function through closed door meetings, secret courts, national security letters, secrecy by obfuscation, lying, and a downright REFUSAL to prosecute internally.
From a realistic standpoint we all need to take a step back and realize that:
1) There does not exists an encryption method that can not be broken. Given enough time and computing power EVERYTHING can be broken. Computing power is readily available. It's not like there is only one computer in the country capable of hacking an iPhone.
2) Apple is lying. Google is lying. Microsoft is lying. Pretty much they are all lying when it comes to protecting your data. They will say what it takes to make a buck and to make a buck they want your data as much; if not more than the NSA, FBI, CIA... We probably have more privacy concerns coming from them than we do from the government.
On a philosophical level I find it chilling that LE who generally swear to uphold the laws of the land, which, last I checked, included the U.S. Constitution are so willing to violate those laws when it suits their desires. If you have a warrant you can seize the device, demand the owner hand over the pass codes or simply employ a HS teenager and hack the thing. Why do you need instant and easy access that puts everyone's data, privacy and security at risk? Once you legally justify the seizure of the device what is going to change on it? Nothing if you have half a brain and isolate it. Same goes to laptops, PC's, thumb drives... If you have physical control of it via a lawfully generated search warrant you can do with it as you will. I find it awfully hypocritical that a group of people who cry foul at being broad brushed when criminal activity within their org is brought to light enjoy using such a broad brush whenever it suits them.
I posit that LEO have ample tools with which to do their jobs and the "problem" with the system doesn't lie with a lack of tools or ability to catch criminals, but rather the second half of the whole legal system coin. A court system that refuses to keep criminals away from society and often passes the buck. No amount of "tool" sharpening will solve that issue. You know what they say: it's a poor carpenter who blames his tools. Well LEO are a tool of the court system.
montanadave
11-03-14, 09:14
Big brother is here.
Whether you think it's .gov or .com, your data, all of it, is out there and anyone with the resources can access it.
The whole notion of moving "off grid" is rapidly fading away, even for those willing to go to the most desperate extremes.
Moose-Knuckle
11-04-14, 02:38
The whole notion of moving "off grid" is rapidly fading away . . .
The whole notion of the 4th Amendment has faded away along with the rest of those pesky rights.
But to what you are saying, this is the kind of think that set Ted Kaczynski off in the first place. Now he WAS totally off the grid, the Feds would have never found him had it not been for his nosey sister-in-law.
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