View Full Version : Have you used your AR for more than just paper punching?
mastiffhound
09-30-14, 21:12
Shooting the breeze at lunch today we got into a discussion about actual use or training to use your AR/s for some purpose other than just so you can be one of the "cool kids" that has one.
Out of 10 of us all have at least 1 or more ARs.
None of us compete in 3 gun or shooting sports.
6 out of ten use it for home or property defense.
Out of those 6 only 3 have actually taken a carbine class, I have yet to take one but I live in the country so I can practice drills on my own. Still, I'm looking at taking a class just for the experience.
Out of those 6 also, only 2 have actually used ARs for varminting/hunting/protecting crops or livestock from invasive species or predators, myself being one of the 2
So out of a sampling of 10 only 5 have have actual experience shooting under some sort of stress be it from a class or hunting varmints/predators. It's kind of disappointing that only 50% have actually used their ARs for something that could possibly make them a better shooter.
The one guy of the 6 that had neither taken a class or hunted kind of got snippy saying that a class or shooting a raccoon at 50 or 60 yards is easy. He was referring to a raccoon on my property that I had to shoot a while ago that was acting strangely going in no particular direction in the middle of the day. I'm pretty sure it was rabies. I wanted to put it down fast before my dogs got to it, they all have their shots but I don't chance stuff. It took 6 shots with the 6th being a lung hit, it never moved in one direction long enough to get a good bead. Most guys would just say "1 shot 1 kill baby" but usually they're full of it. An animal the size of a small house cat moving in every direction with no way to lead it with your heart pounding is a damn hard shot even at 50-60 yards. After some good natured ribbing about his difficulty hitting a 10" gong at 100 yards the last time he was out with us made him re-examine his stance.
Anyways, I'm wondering how many of us here have actually took some sort of training or at least hunted with their AR. I'm doing a poll because I'm curious how many use their AR for more than just plinking.
I guess your question could also be narrowed down to who have served in the Armed Forces, and those who have not. For present and formers Service members, the AR platform was a tool, and part of the job. I touched an AR type of weapon the first time in basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, Summer of 1978. The weapon was an M16A1. I enjoyed the weapon platform and thought it was the coolest rifle I had ever shot. I was 18 at the time and got my Expert rating that Summer. While as an Army Aviator early on I carried an XM177 CAR in my aircraft, and a Colt 1911 as a sidearm. Didn't buy my first private purchase AR until 1988, and that was an AR15A2 HBAR. Since then I've purchased lots of ARs in various configurations and from a couple of different makers (Colt, LMT). I use a Colt 6920 on horseback as a varmint rifle. Nice personal defense weapon as well.
mastiffhound
09-30-14, 22:06
I guess your question could also be narrowed down to who have served in the Armed Forces, and those who have not.
Absolutely, I would consider serving in the Armed Forces as taking a class at the very least, my brother was a much better shot after basic. He said a lot of guys he went into basic with had never fired a rifle so you have (I would think) at the very least a decent shooting class.
turnburglar
09-30-14, 23:45
In basic they covered the fundamentals of marksmanship, but nothing like a good class. Of course after basic, the real war fighters get much more in depth.
Also: not to knock your friends arrogance towards "classes" and doing drills on your own: you don't know what you don't know. I'm sure a real instructor would blow your mind.
I went through infantry OSUT about three years ago and fired less than 200 live rounds through an M4. Next to nothing was taught because supposedly everyone would learn at their units. Military service does not even equal weapon familiarity in a lot of cases, sad as it is.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've used a 20 inch Colt Competition HBar for hunting varmints. Haven't taken a class yet, but I've been shooting with a local LEO and he's been helping me correct a couple bad habits. Never fired a shot in anger and the only gun I carried during my service in the Air Force was a rivit gun. I've done a lot of plinking over the years and my only competition shooting has been a few local Service Rifle matches with my Garand
Unfortunately, I have never been in class. I think I would hold them up. Look at my name, I'm a wrench not a warfighter.
I went through infantry OSUT about three years ago and fired less than 200 live rounds through an M4. Next to nothing was taught because supposedly everyone would learn at their units. Military service does not even equal weapon familiarity in a lot of cases, sad as it is.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If I didn't deploy, I still wouldn't have formal training paid for by Uncle Sam on any weapon besides a keyboard and an M9.
When people say "oh I trust the military to be proficient in firearms" I want to laugh in their face. I trust most combat arms folk to be proficient in firearms, but that's it. And not even all combat MOSs. There's so much more to combat than shooting straight with a rifle.
That being said, in my free time, I shoot 2 gun competitions, I've taken a carbine course, and one of my ARs sits by my bed for home defense.
This doesn't apply to me, but I have to ask: are insurgents considered varmints? Are criminals considered predators?
Eurodriver
10-01-14, 06:43
Military service, outside of the Marine Corps, does not even equal weapon familiarity in a lot of cases, sad as it is.
Fixed it for you, sir.
Anyone in the Marine Corps in the last decade (whether their MOS starts with 03 or not) has taken at least several, full day, Table 2, 3, and 4 classes along with unknown distance ranges and of course their standard 200-500 known distance range qualification. These include actual live fire at timed, rotating targets (as well as the same at night with NVGs and PEQ15s). Every. Single Marine. Once you look at Victor units it seems they spend half their lives at the range (and the other half at the armory)
My only beef with this system is that aside from Tables 1 and 2, there is no pass or fail. I wish they would set more standards for failure to stop drills and actually develop a scoring metric for these tables. You review your hits and everyone tries for their best, but obviously there will be loads of slackers unless failing will result in consequences.
It may not equal a $500, 20 person class, taught by LAV. But you sure as shit know your way around a weapon. This isn't an Army vs. Marines bash, but there is a significant difference that must be mentioned.
Interesting factoid: Failure2Stop was instrumental in developing this program.
My first exposure to AR's was in the Army in 85. Since then I've owned a few. I hunt with mine, use them for HD and have taken 4-5 classes. As a versatile weapon they are awful hard to beat. The 1st rifle I taught my son to shoot was one of my AR's. He was 8 and it's his favorite weapon to hunt with.
wildcard600
10-01-14, 07:18
Can't operate without classes brah....
Most .mil, that are actually highly proficient with Small Arms, didn't get that way on Uncle Sam's dime. It's because they cared enough to do it on their own time. An exception may be SOF Personnel in Direct Combat Roles.
No classes yet, can't really take time off for travel/class/travel. Maybe next year.
Otherwise my AR is for HD, 3 gun, and if I can find some land it'll be for coyotes too.
A Taurus Judge with .410 in the cylinder is a home Defense gun. AR's are for fixing up and showing off like a custom motorcycle or some such.
I am taking classes next year. I do have mine ready for HD(though its not my first choice), and have taken it on varmint hunts.
A Taurus Judge with .410 in the cylinder is a home Defense gun. AR's are for fixing up and showing off like a custom motorcycle or some such.
Markm, Town Pontificator
http://foxystale.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Walter1.jpg
:sarcastic:
3ACR_Scout
10-01-14, 11:33
I took a carbine class 10 years ago prior to my first Iraq deployment because I felt like I hadn't been trained at all by the Army beyond qualification - I'm Armor, and back then my Platoon Sergeant told me, "Sir, you don't need to be messing around with the M4. That's the driver's weapon." Death Before Dismount... I learned a lot from that first class, especially about the limitations of Army load bearing equipment from that time period, tactical reloading, and transitioning weapons. It was a Tactical Response course, and I later questioned some of the things I learned there, but it was a decent start towards improving myself, and it was certainly better than anything I had learned in the Army up to that point. I was able to take a lot of lessons from that class and combine them with my own experiences to create a better reflexive fire class for my guys a few years later. Since them, the Army had made a lot of improvements when it comes to training Combat Arms soldiers, and I most recently went through several days of training with some NCO instructors who had obviously adopted much more contemporary techniques and methods than I'd seen in the military before. Many of the students were completely unfamiliar with many aspects of shooting, such as sight-over-bore (I watched a bunch of people repeatedly shoot the board in the 9-hole drill), so we still have a ways to go, but it's getting better. Unfortunately, those techniques are still not universally taught, and as others stated, you really only see them in Combat Arms or if you are going through specialized predeployment training for certain assignments.
I'm grateful for the Army training I've had in recent years though, because the arrival of our two kids has put a damper on my freedom to get away for a multi-day training course. I've had a number of leave periods in the past few years that have yet to coincide with an available class, but I keep looking for one.
Dave
I have thousands of rounds through an AR shooting prarie dogs. I have also shot a bunch of coyotes. I don't feel like I need a class to hunt varmints and four legged predators.
Many of the students were completely unfamiliar with many aspects of shooting, such as sight-over-bore (I watched a bunch of people repeatedly shoot the board in the 9-hole drill), so we still have a ways to go, but it's getting better.
It's amazing how that is SO lost on SO many shooters.
Rayrevolver
10-01-14, 14:12
I did 6 total days, 3 pistol only, 3 pistol/carbine. In 2008. Now I make shooting sounds in the basement mostly. Pew pew.
Recently shot a USPSA side-match with a M&P 15/22 + RMR. That was a blast and hope to try some 2/3 gun down the road.
First: I'm a hunter without being a Fudd. I have 2 AR's that I shoot a lot including a boatload of pistols and shotguns.
As a kid, I was taught not to shoot anything I wasn't willing to eat.
That said, why shoot prairie dogs, crows or even coyotes, unless they're causing problems?
If they are, shoot them, but the ones I see most often aren't causing problems.
Me, I just can't see killing for killing sake. Hell, I even carry off and let go venomous snakes I find in my yard, rather than kill them. They eat a lot of rodents.
School me.
Am I missing something?
BTW: I've killed mucho, deer, ducks, geese, doves, quail, but I did eat em all.
Use my AR for everything, one of the reasons I got into the platform. Just switch upper for intended purpose. Was slow to take classes at first, but now I try to take at least a couple (or more depending on funds/schedule) a year. Hit the range every other weekend, and a competition every couple of months. As far as hunting, I don't go as much as I used to, but still try and go a couple of times each season. I enjoy the nature & peace and quiet aspect (married with children) more than killing/harvesting (last year made it to the deer stand and realized I completly forgot rifle in the SUV, oops). A gun is a tool, at least thats how I view it, however you wanna swing your wrench is up to you. And I call my rifle "Hippie Kicker", not Charlene.;)
mastiffhound
10-01-14, 21:53
This doesn't apply to me, but I have to ask: are insurgents considered varmints? Are criminals considered predators?
Well, from what I've read and seen insurgents are always poking their heads out and popping up out of holes so I guess they're varmints or at least varmint like. Some criminals are classified as predators, sexual predators and many call other criminal types two legged predators. I guess in a way LE hunts these types down so I guess they could be considered predators. Mills Lane would probably allow it!
I agree to an extent with the "Don't shoot it if your not going to eat it" theory, but hogs and coyote, at least where I live, tend to cause enough problems to warrant killing them (especially the hog)... I will say if you live on a lot of land that's over run with jack rabbits, those make for damn good moving target practice with a carbine/handgun due to there small size. Pushes you to be more accurate while also working on speed. Sounds silly but it actually helped me quite a bit since moving targets aren't so common. It allowed me to acquire a skill a might not have other wise. That's the only reason I shoot them, honestly.
First: I'm a hunter without being a Fudd. I have 2 AR's that I shoot a lot including a boatload of pistols and shotguns.
As a kid, I was taught not to shoot anything I wasn't willing to eat.
That said, why shoot prairie dogs, crows or even coyotes, unless they're causing problems?
If they are, shoot them, but the ones I see most often aren't causing problems.
Me, I just can't see killing for killing sake. Hell, I even carry off and let go venomous snakes I find in my yard, rather than kill them. They eat a lot of rodents.
School me.
Am I missing something?
BTW: I've killed mucho, deer, ducks, geese, doves, quail, but I did eat em all.
Prairie dogs, crows or even coyotes, wild hogs cause many problems.
Prairie dogs destroy farm land and livestock can break legs, coyotes will go after new born calves and deer. Wild hogs will eat fawns, and destroy farming land. Crows destroy crops.
I don't belong to a hunting club as I have 70 acres of my own but I will not let coyotes or wild hogs pass and there is open season on them all year long. Yes we eat the wild hog s or give them to families in need.
A hunting club not far from me has in its bylaws that if you pass on killing a wild hog or coyote while hunting you will kicked out of the club.
Wild hogs and coyote are that bad here and is the same for other places.
As for your snakes I love the taste of a good rattlesnake!
I was lucky that my father was a WW2 Infantry Solider. He shot expert with everything he carried to include the M1 Rifle, M1 Carbine, 1911, M1 Submachinegun, and Watercooled .30 cal machinegun. He landed on DDay and finished the War. He served until 1962 when he retired.
He taught me the use of the rifle, noise discipline, cover and concealment, stalking and shooting positions. He taught me how to hunt and survive. This was the most valuable training I received. From some one who survived to tell his tale. Later as I met those who served with him I learned from them also.
When I first joined the Army we were still using M16A1 rifles, the 1911. When I went through Basic and AIT at Ft. Benning it was a breeze. As time progressed I got a few high speed schools in the Army. I have killed with the M16 series of weapons and there was no doubt when I did it.
I left the Army in 91 and didn't buy a AR till 2006. I don't hate the M16 or AR series of rifles I just didn't see the need. What I had then still worked as it does now. What changed was the different calibers you can have by swapping the upper, the magazine and bolt.
I have two ARs now and both have taken deer. Its legal here in Alabama and our deer are not as large in the Northern or Western States. My longest shot is at 120m. The 55 grain soft point works well here as doe the Winchester 64 grain.
When time and money permit I plan to have uppers in 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC.
What has helped was my father and the vets I met while in service. Most of them were from Vietnam time frame and I learned a lot from them that helped me down South.
Other things I learned;
The 5.56 will kill, it has its limitations but so does other weapon systems.
Combat is different than hunting. I've taken shots in combat that I would not take in hunting unless I was in dire straights.
Most rifles are more accurate then the people that shoot them. This includes an old m16A1 I was first issued. When I learned to use the rifle correctly this thing could shoot!
People have unrealistic views in life to include what a weapon will or will not do. So often in combat what men believe counts for as much as what is true.
Some people are just damn hard to kill and some will just lay down and die.
There we have it.
I do use the AR Carbine for home defense also. 2 mags loaded with frangible. Since I live in the boonies my family has contingency plans should a home invasion occur.
For those who don't have any training its up to you. If you feel fine with out it great. If you feel you need or want it whether you had any training before go for it. Research the schools and see what they have that fits your needs.
Keep your powder dry.
I was lucky that my father was a WW2 Infantry Solider. He shot expert with everything he carried to include the M1 Rifle, M1 Carbine, 1911, M1 Submachinegun, and Watercooled .30 cal machinegun. He landed on DDay and finished the War. He served until 1962 when he retired.
He taught me the use of the rifle, noise discipline, cover and concealment, stalking and shooting positions. He taught me how to hunt and survive. This was the most valuable training I received. From some one who survived to tell his tale. Later as I met those who served with him I learned from them also.
When I first joined the Army we were still using M16A1 rifles, the 1911. When I went through Basic and AIT at Ft. Benning it was a breeze. As time progressed I got a few high speed schools in the Army. I have killed with the M16 series of weapons and there was no doubt when I did it.
I left the Army in 91 and didn't buy a AR till 2006. I don't hate the M16 or AR series of rifles I just didn't see the need. What I had then still worked as it does now. What changed was the different calibers you can have by swapping the upper, the magazine and bolt.
I have two ARs now and both have taken deer. Its legal here in Alabama and our deer are not as large in the Northern or Western States. My longest shot is at 120m. The 55 grain soft point works well here as doe the Winchester 64 grain.
When time and money permit I plan to have uppers in 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC.
What has helped was my father and the vets I met while in service. Most of them were from Vietnam time frame and I learned a lot from them that helped me down South.
Other things I learned;
The 5.56 will kill, it has its limitations but so does other weapon systems.
Combat is different than hunting. I've taken shots in combat that I would not take in hunting unless I was in dire straights.
Most rifles are more accurate then the people that shoot them. This includes an old m16A1 I was first issued. When I learned to use the rifle correctly this thing could shoot!
People have unrealistic views in life to include what a weapon will or will not do. So often in combat what men believe counts for as much as what is true.
Some people are just damn hard to kill and some will just lay down and die.
There we have it.
I do use the AR Carbine for home defense also. 2 mags loaded with frangible. Since I live in the boonies my family has contingency plans should a home invasion occur.
For those who don't have any training its up to you. If you feel fine with out it great. If you feel you need or want it whether you had any training before go for it. Research the schools and see what they have that fits your needs.
Keep your powder dry.
Grey Wolf,
Just some food for thought. I didn't know this until recently, because I had never given it thought. Frangible ammo will absolutely and utterly kill your bore in short order. Maybe you should consider a different HD load out or at least keep the use of it to a minimum.
Thanks for your service.
-Ryan
Grey Wolf,
Just some food for thought. I didn't know this until recently, because I had never given it thought. Frangible ammo will absolutely and utterly kill your bore in short order. Maybe you should consider a different HD load out or at least keep the use of it to a minimum.
Thanks for your service.
-Ryan
Depends on the frangible round. The thin jacketed stuff like you find in the XM line and Barnes MPG aren't harmful in my experience.
MSparks909
10-02-14, 11:13
I've taken 2 carbine classes and 4 handgun classes in the past 2 years. Regularly shoot USPSA and 3-Gun. I'm also an avid hunter; mostly waterfowl, but I have taken deer and hogs with my ARs before. Use one of my ARs for home defense, but it lives under the bed. My go-to bump in the night gun is my VP9 with an Inforce APL, which is on the nightstand.
I mostly use my AR for paper punching for two reasons, one is that it overall is cheap to shoot, especially with ammo coming back down in price and the fact that in the Twin Cities area, I don't have a lot of outdoor ranges to utilize for distance steel targets. I have taken a class that was extremely informative, but didn't stray to far off of the basic Marine learns. I would like to take another, more advanced but with winter around the corner in MN, options are dwindling.
I mostly punch paper, mostly out to 100 yards, farther once in awhile but not much. No hunting or varmint control. Have taken one 'carbine class' (so far) (most of my training has been with handguns), also Appleseeds from time to time.
My first exposure to AR's was in the Army in 85. Since then I've owned a few. I hunt with mine, use them for HD and have taken 4-5 classes. As a versatile weapon they are awful hard to beat. The 1st rifle I taught my son to shoot was one of my AR's. He was 8 and it's his favorite weapon to hunt with.
Toujours pret, always ready!
I have mine mostly for Second Amendment purposes, but I also have a carbine for home defense, I train/take classes with them (which I see as being much more about 2A than self defense), I hunt hogs with them, and I do some competition... mostly cross country Run 'n Gun events like at Pecos and Buckholts/BattleRoad down in Texas, and the one in Pawnee, Oklahoma that I organize... that is mostly about 2A as well the way I see it.
As far as killing animals goes, I do it both for food and for fun. More for fun than anything... they are good to eat, but if it were just about eating, there are a lot easier ways!
Mine had a primary duty of home defense and classes. I also use it to give new shooters exposure to the platform. Once I get out of the police academy (9 weeks left!) it will become my duty rifle and live in the trunk.
BufordTJustice
10-04-14, 00:22
I bring mine to work, have hunted feral hog, and use it for HD at my bedside. Some agency schools as well.
First exposure to the AR was with an M16A1 during basic in 83.
I use the AR for everything long gun related now.
Taken 2 rifle classes.
Killed 5 deer... 3 of which were over 160 pounds. None of them made it over 25 yards before bleeding out. Use it for non-food item hunting as well... Hogs and canine style varmints are indiscriminately killed here in GA, but their numbers continue to grow even with 24/7 hunting allowed.
Use it as my primary defense/patrol rifle here on the farm. Try to always have one with me in the truck.
My bolt guns are now my paper punching tools.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.