View Full Version : Lee Full-Length .223 Resizing Die v. SAAMI Specs
Okay, let me start by saying I'm sure this topic has been done to death, but my searches didn't turn up what I'm looking for. If someone can point me to the thread(s), that would be great.
Assuming otherwise, though, here's my problem.
I have been reloading for one rifle for several years. I have the Lyman gauge for .223 and a Lee Full-Length .223 Resizing Die. All of my factory (Hornady) and milsurp (IMI, Winchester, Guat) ammo drops into the gauge perfectly, so I know the gauge is good. However, my reloads don't. When I first encountered this, I contacted Lee and was told:
Our full length sizing
die is designed not to size all the way back to SAAMI min because we
have found that most chambers are large enough to make this unnecessary.
Doing so overworks the brass. Check to see if the cases you sized in our
die chamber freely in your gun. If they do go ahead and reload them.
They will be a better fit in your gun's chamber and probably make more
accurate ammunition.
The rounds chambered freely in my gun, and always have, so I pretty much dropped the subject.
Now, however, I want to use my ammo in a second gun. I really don't want to have to check both guns every time I want to shoot. And the more I read and learn, the more I'm convinced the case gauge method is more sound.
So here's my question: Is there a way to use the Lee die so it meets SAAMI specs? I'm guessing the gauge is SAAMI-spec, but it doesn't specifically say so. And I'm guessing the Lee die cannot meet SAAMI specs. If true, what other die choices do I have?
Many thanks in advance.
You're talking about an AR-type rifle, correct? I'm curious why your reloads aren't dropping into the gauge. Large base diameter maybe? At any rate, you're right, you need to size cases back to a case gauge to ensure reliable operation in multiple guns. I'm not familiar with the Lee die but if it's not squeezing cases down enough to fit into the case gauge then I don't think there's any way to make it do so (assuming your shoulder bump is adequate).
The Dillon sizing die is all I've used and I would recommend it. All Dillon dies are small base, FYI.
I have some RCBS dies that are the same way. When adjusted all the way down with the shell holder touching the die, they do indeed size to SAAMI specs, but that wasn't enough for one of my rifles (shorter headspace). It's like RCBS, Lee, Hornady, etc. are made idiot proof preventing you from over sizing the brass, which is bad for more than just brass life. I needed just a few more thousandths of adjustment for one of my rifles, so I bought a Redding sizing die that can be adjusted to size waaayyy beyond SAAMI specs. Redding and Forster dies work the same way.
If you get the Redding die, be sure to get the carbide expander. Makes a world of difference.
Also, get a Hornady Headspace Gage Kit. They are light years better than the Lyman guages foir measuring headspace. The Lyman guages are great for a quick drop checks, but they don't actually measure anything. Every chamber is different, so you really should measure for each chambers headspace and size to the tightest chamber.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479704/hornady-lock-n-load-headspace-gage-5-bushing-set-with-comparator
A case gage is not a reliable indicator for whether or not your cases are properly sized unless it is cut with the same reamer that cut your rifle's chamber. They serve as excellent visual "Quick-check" devices.
A mass-produced drop-gage (Lee, Dillon, Wilson, etc.) can tell you if the shoulder was set back within a minimum and maximum range but not whether the case body was sized correctly -- that will take a set of calipers and something like a Stoney Point - Hornady gage and comparator.
Brass also has some "Spring-back," from the smallest dimension you squeeze it to.
If you have two (or more) rifles in 5.56 / .223 you'll have to shoot a factory-loaded cartridge from each rifle and mic both cases (or a case from each rifle or carbine you own). Once you've determined which rifle or carbine has the tightest chamber you'll need to figure out whether or not your sizing die (full-length, body-only, or small base) sizes your cases enough to fit. That rifle or carbine can be used as your "Drop gage," since if your rounds will fit THAT gun they'll fit in ALL your guns.
You then size all cases using that die to ensure you have complete compatibility in all guns without worrying (or labeling) whether or not your handloads fit "Rifle only", "Carbine only", "Mid-length only", "SBR only", or "Brand XYZ only."
A generic small base die is good for getting cases back to minimal/close-to-virgin-unfired dimensions. Why wouldn't you want to load and fire close-to-factory dimension ammo?
Brass is a consumable item. With careful loading and annealing you can get up to 20 (or a few more) firings. The military doesn't care about hand loading and only needs the weapon to operate as designed. For those of us who pay for our ammo and components we wish to get optimum precision and service from each and every case -- but I throw out questionable ones before even risking a case separation.
Whytep38
Don't over think the issue, a 5.56 military chamber is .002 larger in diameter and has longer headspace settings than a SAAMI commercial chamber. Meaning a standard .223 full length die is going to size your AR15 cases smaller in diameter in comparison to a .223 chamber. My small base die only makes my cases .0005 smaller in diameter "BUT" it sizes further down the case returning it to minimum factory base diameter. And I only use my small base die when I buy once fired or range pick up brass and size these once and then use my standard die.
And the only time my cases do not drop into my Wilson gauge is when the rim has an extraction ding in it preventing the case from entering all the way, if this happens the damaged section of rim is hit with a small fine file to remove the ding.
This hang up can be doubled checked by turning the case 180 and sticking it in the gauge base first, if it sticks the rim is the cause of the problem and not the shoulder.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge003_zps317ba01a.jpg
My Wilson gauges are semiretired and I only use them as a finial check before putting the cartridges in their plastic storage boxes. My main gauge is the Hornady cartridge case gauge, I measure the fired cartridge case length and set my die for the minimum shoulder bump. And when loading for two or more rifles you resize all the cases for the shortest chamber.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge002_zpscc227fb8.jpg
The above methods work for me "BUT" we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and no two chambers and reloading dies are exactly the same and to be 100% sure your reloaded rounds chamber a small base die may be needed.
I have two AR15 rifles, a A2 HBAR and a 16 inch carbine along with a .223 bolt action rifle with a 26 inch heavy barrel and I have all my bases covered. ;)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg
Don't over think the issue, a 5.56 military chamber is .002 larger in diameter and has longer headspace settings than a SAAMI commercial chamber.
Colt's FIELD II dimension - the maximum allowable HS for a 5.56 chamber - is 1.4736". The max HS for a SAAMI .223 chamber is also 1.4736" as evidenced by two different drawings. The max HS of a 5.56 chamber is no longer than the max HS of a .223 chamber. See dimensions circled in red:
ETA: The military GO dimension is 1.4646" which is indeed 0.001" longer than the SAAMI min. of 1.4636". So a 5.56 chamber COULD have a HS 0.001" longer than a .223 chamber. There is still a 90% overlap in the two specs.
http://i.imgur.com/ov8jD0C.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8IhZqX1.jpg
The base diameters vary slightly but only two common manufacturer's .223 reamers vary significantly from the 5.56 variety where the base diameter is concerned.
http://i.imgur.com/wevL5ZY.jpg
Does your live ammo eject from the gun if you rack a live round out of the chamber without firing? If yes, then you're probably getting enough shoulder bump... but if the ammo won't gauge, you don't know if you're getting TOO much bump which will kill your brass.
A lot of people poo poo on small base dies, but I like mine. It's the Dillon carbide. You might not be getting the case fully squeezed down.
In my opinion, if the factory ammo drops in the gauge, your reloads should too. I load ammo that may be shot in any of 20 guns, so It had better gauge ok. I use the Dillon case gauge and everything I load will drop in.
Thanks for the info, gents. A lot of good stuff.
I have the Hornady headspace gauge kit, but I no longer use it based on the info in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?152787-223-Shoulder-bump&highlight=
My live ammo does eject from the gun when I rack a live round out of the chamber without firing. So it seems that because I'm feeding just two rifles, rather than a whole bunch, I'm probably better off adjusting my dies to fit the tightest chamber, which will then allow me to feed both without issue.
EDIT: For clarity, I don't let the bolt slam home on the round. Instead, I ease the bolt forward and then finish by using the forward assist. I'm also careful not to use too much pressure, just enough to get the extractor claw over the rim like you would for a GO, NO-GO, or FIELD gauge. If I get undue resistance - and I err on the side of safety - I stop.
I'm probably better off adjusting my dies to fit the tightest chamber, which will then allow me to feed both without issue.
That's effectively what I do by setting my die to the case gauge (for shoulder bump). I've not found it to be an issue at all. This did not work very well for .308 bolt gun. In that realm, I got a lot of premature case separation.
Eric D.
Sorry but military chambers are traditionally always fatter and longer than commercial chambers, below shows the base diameter being .002 larger and why military cartridge cases are harder in the base to better withstand the larger chambers.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556and223chambers_zps5ee6a6c4.gif
Below are the headspace settings for the .223 and 5.56 which clearly show that the GO and NO-GO for the 5.56 M-16/AR15 are "LONGER".
And the SAW maching gun has a even larger diameter chamber and even longer headspace settings and "WHY" reloaders complain about buying once fired SAW brass.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspace_zps21917d6a.jpg
The SAAMI headspace figures you posted are the minimum and maximum headspace allowed "BUT" the GO and NO-GO gauges are different between civilian and military standards.
On top of this I have two 5.56 AR15 rifles and a .223 bolt action rifle and I know for a fact the headspace settings on the AR15 rifles are longer.
Below my Colt Field II headspace gauge. ;)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge006_zps3cdabdf4.jpg
Below the Colt gauge in my "calibrated" Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge_zps14d3b71f.jpg
Below a fired case from my AR15 rifle with the shortest chamber and longer than a civilian SAAMI NO-GO gauge, my other AR15 measures 1.4685 which again is longer than the civilian NO-GO gauge. And my .223 fired brass measures 1.4655 which shows that military chambers are traditionally longer and fatter than there civilian counter parts.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge005_zps20685e73.jpg
And for grins and giggles the .308 vs the 7.62 which shows the military 7.62 chamber being .0025 larger in diameter than the .308.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/183911_zps5aff5dc9.jpg
And the GO and NO-GO settings are both "LONGER" for the M14 rifle also.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/m14chamber_zps93174da1.jpg
And my point being civilian cases gauges like the Wilson case gauge are the shorter civilian headspace settings. And a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge gives you the actual fired length of your case to adjust your dies for the proper shoulder bump. Meaning using the Wilson type .223 gauges will cause you to over resize you cases and shorten their case life.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/gauge002_zpsd2792ffa.jpg
And below is headspace maximus the British .303, minimum military headspace is .064 and maximum is .074 with the civilian NO-GO gauge being .067
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspcegauges_zps7e649c49.jpg
And a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge gives you the actual fired length of your case to adjust your dies for the proper shoulder bump.
Agreeing with BigEd, which is why you have to check all your chambers.
If you can get away with it, pushing case shoulders back only .002" will get you proper feeding and minimal case stretching. More than .003" and you start asking for case thinning and separations.
Dillon says in a 2008 post in their Q&A board that their dies are small base. My personal experience with their dies on my personal 1990 550B is that the shellplate is too thick for me to work cases shot in .mil 5.56 chambers down to safe dimensions where I don't risk a slam-fire in a match or commercial .223 chamber.
And what good is a Wilson case gauge when you can't drop a fired case in the gauge and find out your fired length. And all the Wilson type gauges tell you is if your resized case fits between a SAAMI civilian GO and NO-GO gauge.
Below is a extreme example of military and SAAMI chamber and cartridge case dimensions, and don't tell me about it being a rimed .303 cartridge because when resized the case shoulder will be used and not the rim for headspacing.
Below Remington doesn't even know where to put the shoulder of the case.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/short_zps78ac9e38.jpg
And the British Commonwealth military does.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/mil-surp_zps40dfaedb.jpg
And below the distance the case is sticking above the Wilson SAAMI gauge is how much longer the military chamber is than its commercial civilian version.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/100_1637_zpsdd85ab06.jpg
Bottom line, if your resized .223/5.56 case is resting at the lowest acceptable reading on a Wilson type case gauge your cases can have over .006 head clearance and the shoulder will have been pushed back too far during resizing.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/HEADCLEARANCE-a_zps1a9a1011.jpg
And when the cartridge is fired it will have to stretch that .006 to reach the bolt face when fired and cause short case life and case head separations.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/HeadClearance_zpsf30a3af1.gif
Fired 5.56 case
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge005_zps20685e73.jpg
Same case with .003 shoulder bump
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge004_zps4465b7bc.jpg
A new unfired Federal XM193 cartridge
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspacegauge002_zpscc227fb8.jpg
I ran into the same issue. I purchased a RCBS small base die, which resolved the problem. When setting up the die, I pull down the press handle and screw the die down until it touches the shell plate carrier. I then back out the die one full turn and resize a piece of brass. If the brass will not drop freely into my Wilson case gauge, I turn in the die roughly 5 degrees at a time until the brass does fit the gauge.
I am not finished with set up just yet. I run a second piece of brass through the die and check it to make sure it goes into the case gauge, but not too far.
I have not run into .223 brass springing back, but I have had to run certain brands of .308 brass through the resizing stage twice before it fits the Wilson gauge due to the brass springing back.
I love the pictures bigedp51. Thank you.
My personal experience with their dies on my personal 1990 550B is that the shellplate is too thick for me to work cases shot in .mil 5.56 chambers down to safe dimensions where I don't risk a slam-fire in a match or commercial .223 chamber.
What, in that scenario, could cause the slam fire?
When setting up the die, I pull down the press handle and screw the die down until it touches the shell plate carrier. I then back out the die one full turn and resize a piece of brass. If the brass will not drop freely into my Wilson case gauge, I turn in the die roughly 5 degrees at a time until the brass does fit the gauge.
I am not finished with set up just yet. I run a second piece of brass through the die and check it to make sure it goes into the case gauge, but not too far.
I'll do that but with an average of 5 or so pieces. Brass just has different spring back from case to case. So one case will be perfect, and the next one is a tad different.
What, in that scenario, could cause the slam fire?
Military Lake City range pickup brass from known US Government weapons (M4, Colt 723, Colt 733, and Commandos) sized in a Dillon .223 die on a 550B. Trimmed on a Gracey. Loaded while in the standing position (pair firing) at Quantico Range 4 into a National Match AR (Douglas blank, Merchant National Match barrel) built by Gunnery Sergeant Tom Kivlehan, Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion, Quantico. Our coach with his spotting scope was seated between me and the number one shooter.
Imagine all our surprise when, as I let the bolt carrier group go forward, the rifle fired (in battery, thank God) because the lower portion of the case was not sized far enough down the body -- same as the remaining 49 rounds in the box.
I've used an RCBS small base die ever since. I cannot risk an accidental firing or stoppage during competition, let alone around any other person. My hand loads are now as close to factory ammo as I can personally produce -- annealed before every sizing, small-base sized (on a single-stage press, where the whole case body gets sized), and trimmed on a Giraud. They fit in a wide variety of my own (and my son's) personal rifles and carbines (both Camp Perry guns and plinking blasters).
Shoulders are generally pushed back .002".
I don't have to be picky or selective as to which weapon the ammo fits into (unless I dork something up like drop a powder charge too low to cycle a 20-inch match or DM rifle, but function through mid-length guns. NOTE: 23.5 of N135 under a 77-grain Match King doesn't cycle my personal 20-inchers with both match and 5.56 .mil chambers).
I still drop-test sized and trimmed cases into a Dillon gage (out of habit) every once in a while just to check.
I still drop-test sized and trimmed cases into a Dillon gage (out of habit) every once in a while just to check.
Sinister
All my case gauges are Wilsons and I have never thought of them as a method of measuring case body diameter because they are so much larger than the sized case diameter. Do you think the Dillon rifle case gauges are more like pistol gauges and conform more to the body diameter of the case. The reason I ask is I also use the Wilson gauge to check my finished loaded rounds and wished it conformed more to chamber diameter for the plunk test in the gauge.
If any of you reading this have Dillon gauges please feel free to respond, my credit card is telling me to purchase one.
Great Information Wow
Answered questions to problems found when reloading that I have not seen or read in any manual.
Keeping this thread for future rereading.
Thanks Again
Keeping this thread for future rereading.
Future rereading is forbidden without the express written consent of the NFL. They own the material here! ;)
You posted one example of a reamer that has a 0.002" larger base diameter. Take another look at my comparison between MULTIPLE reamers. The GO/NO-GO dimensions are completely arbitrary and, according to an industry professional here, the military doesn't use the NO-GO gauge. At any rate, all that the difference in the NO-GO dimensions proves is that the military has a wider window of acceptable HS for that gauge, not that all 5.56 chambers are longer than .223 chambers. You cannot unequivocally declare that 5.56 military chambers have longer HS across the board (I don't care about 7.62, .308, .303 or whatever - my argument revolves around 5.56). It all comes down to how deep a machine operator cut an individual chamber relative to another one. It's possible that ONE single 5.56 chamber could have a longer HS than ONE other .223 chamber but the converse of that is equally possible. Your sample of two ARs compared to one .223 is just that - two samples. I could also make the argument that your measurement of fired 5.56 cases contains error due to additional case stretching during extraction because of residual chamber pressure.
Eric D.
Sorry but military chambers are traditionally always fatter and longer than commercial chambers, below shows the base diameter being .002 larger and why military cartridge cases are harder in the base to better withstand the larger chambers.
How do you know this? I haven't seen any product description that says this explicitly. That's my one gripe about case gauges - you don't know what specs they're made to. IMO, it makes more sense to cut the high and low steps on a case gauge to reflect the minimum and maximum cartridge HS dimensions as opposed to minimum and maximum chamber HS dimensions. I can tell you the difference between high and low steps on my Dillon case gauge, as best as can be measured with my caliper, is 0.005". The difference between min and max cartridge HS according to the SAAMI spec is 0.007" so taking into account manufacturing tolerances for the case gauge itself, 0.005" is reasonable.
And all the Wilson type gauges tell you is if your resized case fits between a SAAMI civilian GO and NO-GO gauge.
Eric D.
You need to read up on military chambers, you also need to measure the fired base diameter of cases fired in a M16/AR15 chamber and a .SAMMI .223 chamber and compare the expansion difference and forget your posted information.
And last but not least some of us used the M16 when it had the jamming problem and just one of the fixes was to enlarge and chrome the chamber. The first M16 chambers had a base diameter of 0.3769 and the chamber and bore were not chromed lined.
So do some more reading about the history of the M16 rifle and "ALL" military chambers compared to civilian SAAMI chambers and their diameters and headspace lengths. The military diameter of the 5.56 chamber is larger in diameter than their civilian counterparts like "ALL" military chambers are.
And Eric D. I'm not trying to be insulting but the first M16 rifles were a POS and jammed all the time and it took three Congressional hearings to straighten out the mess. I'm 65 years old and I never thought I would own a AR15 rifle because of all the problems we had with the early versions. I now have two of them because of my two sons influences and buying one for me as a Christmas gift.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/blackrifle_zpsdc047115.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Casehardness-a_zps14dbe0fd.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/556milbrass_zpsebfa3b7a.jpg
And mil-spec requirments are not civilian SAAMI "guidelines". ;)
And I did some checking on the web after asking my question about the Dillon case gauge vs the Wilson case gauge, The Wilson case gauge has a base diameter of the maximum chamber diameter of the .223 and the JP Enterprises case gauge is cut to the smallest .223 chamber diameter. Meaning many fired cases from AR15 rifles were fired in larger diameter chambers and the fired case will not drop into the Wilson gauge. (Because they had more room to expand)
And you did ask "How do you know this?" and my answer is "experience" and reloading for over 47 years.
Eric D.
You need to read up on military chambers, you also need to measure the fired base diameter of cases fired in a M16/AR15 chamber and a .SAMMI .223 chamber and compare the expansion difference and forget your posted information.
Why would anyone need to read up on this crap or waste their time measuring the base on fired cases. Absolutely ridiculous waste of time.
Set your die up, and rock out! I've scrounged every rag ass piece of brass I could get my hands on. When I come upon one that requires excessive sizing, I shit can it.
My opinion is that there's a balance between the art and science when it comes to making good ammo. Obsessively measuring every God damned thing with calipers has NEVER done anything to improve my ammo at all. Trusting the feel of the press and dies is infinitely more valuable to me.
Why would anyone need to read up on this crap or waste their time measuring the base on fired cases. Absolutely ridiculous waste of time.
Set your die up, and rock out! I've scrounged every rag ass piece of brass I could get my hands on. When I come upon one that requires excessive sizing, I shit can it.
My opinion is that there's a balance between the art and science when it comes to making good ammo. Obsessively measuring every God damned thing with calipers has NEVER done anything to improve my ammo at all. Trusting the feel of the press and dies is infinitely more valuable to me.
markm
I see you live in Arizona so do the forum a favor, when your drinking Mexican Tequila try not to suck on the lemon for so long, its effecting your postings and makes you look like a grumpy old man.
And the best thing about reloading is when I sit at my reloading bench I'm the only one in charge of the process.
And now some gauge humor, and "The Story of the Enfield Inch", just prior to 1912 the Australians asked the American company Pratt and Whitney to help setup and supply the manufacturing equipment to build the British Enfield rifle in Australia. BUT Pratt and Whitney had a problem with the the blue prints and the British inch, the problem was in different parts of the UK the inch equaled in length to so many grains of barley, so many kernels of corn, so many grains of wheat etc. And Pratt and Whitney had a hard time figuring out just how long a British inch was to build the machinery using American gauge standards. In the end the problem with the British inch was solved, Pratt and Whitney built the manufacturing equipment and the Australians proceeded to build the finest and highest quality Enfield rifles ever made.
And Pratt and Whitney did this for the Australian by using gauges and not using "feel" and kernels of corn. ;) (or "X" amount of sucked on lemon peels) :rolleyes:
No amount of reading is going to change the fact that the HS specs for 5.56 and .223 overlap. Meaning it's entirely possible for a .223 chamber to have a longer HS than a 5.56 chamber and vice versa. The only possible way for 5.56 chambers to be universally longer than .223 chambers is to have zero overlap in the specs. I.E. a .223 spec of 1.4636"-1.4676" and a 5.56 spec of 1.4680"-1.4736".
You need to read up on military chambers, you also need to measure the fired base diameter of cases fired in a M16/AR15 chamber and a .SAMMI .223 chamber and compare the expansion difference and forget your posted information.
I was specifically talking about your statement "...and all the Wilson type gauges tell you is if your resized case fits between a SAAMI civilian GO and NO-GO gauge.". Unless your experience involves subjecting a Wilson case gauge to a battery of metrological inspections, actually dropping GO and NO-GO gauges into the case gauge and verifying they are even with the max and min, or explicit disclosure from the manufacturer it serves no purpose in answering my question.
And you did ask "How do you know this?" and my answer is "experience" and reloading for over 47 years.
You do make a valid point here. I will do things my way and you can do them yours.
And the best thing about reloading is when I sit at my reloading bench I'm the only one in charge of the process.
And the best thing about reloading is when I sit at my reloading bench I'm the only one in charge of the process.
And we are in charge of our own processes. ...And have success doing so. If you weren't such a miserable old jerk, people might listen to some of your ideas. There are many ways to achieve success in handloading. And there are some guys here who approach it nearly the exact opposite of me and are equally successful.
I'm really at the point where I skip over your brainless posts with excessive pics, charts, and imagines. They're just pretentious bullshit.
SeriousStudent
10-06-14, 21:33
And we're done here.
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