View Full Version : Pmag Gen 2 vs Gen 3
I'm aware of the actual differences between the magazines, but I'm curious as to why the Gen 3's don't seem to have taken off like the older Gen2's. I see both Gen 2 and Gen 3 mags being sold at the same retailers, and the costs aren't that much different. That being said, the Gen 2's still seem to sell as well (and sometimes better than) the Gen 3 mags. Is there a reason for this that I'm unaware of?
This observation could just be limited to me and my locale, but I thought I'd check. My main concern was some kind of compatibility or limitation of the later gen PMags. I'm about to stock up on magazines and wanted to make sure I wasn't limiting myself by going the Gen 3 route.
For most the gen 2 does everything they need, and it is still $2ish less which doesnt seem like much for a single mag, but if you are buying 10 or so it adds up. I personally do prefer the gen 3 and when I purchase new that is what I grab, unless I can find gen 2's for under $10 then its stupid not to grab some.
I've found that a full 30rd capacity gen 2 seats easier than an full capacity gen 3. I haven't a clue why that is, but seeing that the gen 2 is cheaper and functions better in my rifle I won't be buying gen 3 mags any time soon.
The gen 2 seem to be generally cheaper and proven and also generally show fewer issues across a wider selection of lowers than the Gen 3s which often so issues of not dropping free in some lowers. Even among a number of my rifles my gen 3s do not always drop free while the gen 2 do.
I bought some of the very first Gen 3s nefore Sandy Hook.
I only used five of 'em but the top two rounds would try to cross each other making it impossible to load on a closed bolt and causing a bolt over base occasionally on a locked back bolt.
Sold all of that mess.
I have a Daniel Defense AR that came with a gen 2 and I recently bought 3 gen 3 mags. I plan on buying another Daniel Defense AR soon, by your experience guys should I stock up on gen 2's or gen 3's?
I have a Daniel Defense AR that came with a gen 2 and I recently bought 3 gen 3 mags. I plan on buying another Daniel Defense AR soon, by your experience guys should I stock up on gen 2's or gen 3's?
How well do the Gen 3s work in your DD? Buy the second DD and try them and go from there. Personally I like options and stock Gen 2s, Gen 3s, as well as a variety of USGI mags.
How well do the Gen 3s work in your DD? Buy the second DD and try them and go from there. Personally I like options and stock Gen 2s, Gen 3s, as well as a variety of USGI mags.
Let me go check.
How well do the Gen 3s work in your DD? Buy the second DD and try them and go from there. Personally I like options and stock Gen 2s, Gen 3s, as well as a variety of USGI mags.
Gen 3's drop free.
Gen 3's drop free.
Then I would be inclined, personally, to grab some Gen3s, just because I do like the feel and features. That is me though and considering with black friday coming up you may be able to get gen3s at some smoking hot deals. Still say that it is not a bad idea to have a variety of mags though.
Coming back to the AR platform after owning a Colt back in the late 80's I have done a lot of reading before purchasing my M4 recently.
My thinking is that the G2's were manufactured for my rifle and the G3's were manufactured to cover multiple designs.
It was obvious for me to go with the G2's cause they fit my platform and function fine and the big plus is that a shop in my area has them for $9 all day long and once in a while on sale for $8.
I did have a couple looked to be newer G2's that would not lock the bolt back and found some plastic flashing that had to be trimmed off and now they function fine.
Could not find any G2 20 rounders so I have one G3 which has been fine.
Clarence
Coming back to the AR platform after owning a Colt back in the late 80's I have done a lot of reading before purchasing my M4 recently.
My thinking is that the G2's were manufactured for my rifle and the G3's were manufactured to cover multiple designs.
It was obvious for me to go with the G2's cause they fit my platform and function fine and the big plus is that a shop in my area has them for $9 all day long and once in a while on sale for $8.
I did have a couple looked to be newer G2's that would not lock the bolt back and found some plastic flashing that had to be trimmed off and now they function fine.
Could not find any G2 20 rounders so I have one G3 which has been fine.
Clarence
The gen 3 20s were pretty well known to have reliability issues and is one of the few products that Magpul has stopped producing due to those issues. The Gen 3 20s have been fine for me, though I do prefer the profile(shorter) of the usgi 20s.
Thanks Kain;
Then I will stop my search for G2 20's and just get the G3 20's.
Clarence
Pmag prices are all over the place. Usually the Gen 2s are a buck or two cheaper because they don't come with the dust covers. Whether that's important is personal preference. Though one well known internet vendor sells a 10 pack of 30 Rnd Gen 3s cheaper than the Gen 2s. Go figure.
buckkiller35
10-04-14, 19:30
I just picked up 13 Gen 2 30 rounders for $100 delivered. That's less than $8 each.
I'm surprised nobody has said it yet , but I haven't seen any color
options for the M3 . Their all black .
You'd be surprised how many guys will buy only in a certain color .
For every guy that doesn't care about the color and actually shoots their
rifle their may be 3+ that HAVE to be color coordinated for their pics .
Yeah . I went there . Because it's TRUE .
With Magpul no longer making colored mags buy the end of this year
you might notice that some colors are already wiped out and hard
to find .
Once it's all black in M2 and M3 the more economic version will
probably still have a slight advantage but it won't be as big .
BTW -I predict an increase in the sale of Cerakote and other similar
products in 2015 .
After the election buy up insanity is over with , but not before the .22LR
insanity is over .
Thanks Kain;
Then I will stop my search for G2 20's and just get the G3 20's.
Clarence
Not a problem.
I'm surprised nobody has said it yet , but I haven't seen any color
options for the M3 . Their all black .
You'd be surprised how many guys will buy only in a certain color .
For every guy that doesn't care about the color and actually shoots their
rifle their may be 3+ that HAVE to be color coordinated for their pics .
Yeah . I went there . Because it's TRUE .
With Magpul no longer making colored mags buy the end of this year
you might notice that some colors are already wiped out and hard
to find .
Once it's all black in M2 and M3 the more economic version will
probably still have a slight advantage but it won't be as big .
BTW -I predict an increase in the sale of Cerakote and other similar
products in 2015 .
After the election buy up insanity is over with , but not before the .22LR
insanity is over .
Honestly, while I do have a few OD mags because I like the color and of course for the color coordinating pictures, otherwise your gun shui will be all ****ed up and you won't be able to effectively kill the zombies, I don't know for sure if Magpul is going to last all that long running all black unless their plan is to run the price down and basically push the low price competitors out of the market. Unless things pick back up, god forbid another panic or something, I think the slowness of sales might have magpul bringing colored mags back into production within a time. Granted, they might only be seasonal runs, but I could see it happening and would personally welcome it. Otherwise we are going to be going back to the color match threads and personally I can stand the idea of cerakoting a single mag. Maybe I'll just say **** it and rattle can all my ARs.
Straight Shooter
10-04-14, 20:59
I just picked up 13 Gen 2 30 rounders for $100 delivered. That's less than $8 each.
DO TELL, BROTHER...DO TELL....WHERE?!
Not a problem.
Honestly, while I do have a few OD mags because I like the color and of course for the color coordinating pictures, otherwise your gun shui will be all ****ed up and you won't be able to effectively kill the zombies, I don't know for sure if Magpul is going to last all that long running all black unless their plan is to run the price down and basically push the low price competitors out of the market. Unless things pick back up, god forbid another panic or something, I think the slowness of sales might have magpul bringing colored mags back into production within a time. Granted, they might only be seasonal runs, but I could see it happening and would personally welcome it. Otherwise we are going to be going back to the color match threads and personally I can stand the idea of cerakoting a single mag. Maybe I'll just say **** it and rattle can all my ARs.
I agree .
From a purely capitalist standpoint I'm not sure their decision was the best .
IIUC they did so because the colored mags may have been less strong , but I think it will effect their sales .
I really liked the Foliage Green and it will be gone completely .
It seems to fit in better in the northeast then the FDE .
To me at a distance OD just looks like black and doesn't fit in yet
it's more popular .
Guess my next AR will be in FDE without FG around .
DO TELL, BROTHER...DO TELL....WHERE?!
http://www.botach.com/magpul-pmag-30-ar-m4-gen-m3-30rd-5-56mm-magazines-12-pack/
BufordTJustice
10-05-14, 14:06
I had a bunch of gen 2 rev M PMAGs that had issues with the feed lips spreading in my patrol car's trunk in the summer.
I think Magpul shot themselves in the foot by offering the gen 2 mold in the newer gen 3 polymer formula.
I personally prefer the gen 3, but the gen 2 /rev M with the newer polymer formula is difficult to turn down for less than $10.
I have a local place that sells me gen 3 30 rounders for $11 so that's what I buy.
JBecker 72
10-05-14, 14:21
I only have 3 gen 3 mags and none of them will drop free in any lower I've tried so far. I'm sticking with the cheaper 2's.
I had a bunch of gen 2 rev M PMAGs that had issues with the feed lips spreading in my patrol car's trunk in the summer.
I think Magpul shot themselves in the foot by offering the gen 2 mold in the newer gen 3 polymer formula.
I personally prefer the gen 3, but the gen 2 /rev M with the newer polymer formula is difficult to turn down for less than $10.
I have a local place that sells me gen 3 30 rounders for $11 so that's what I buy.
The melt point in the polymer of the PMag is no where near a point where the polymer polymer will yield in a car. Even one in the AZ desert. For example here is a Gen M3 fully loaded 180 degrees hot soak video.
http://youtu.be/M3Exl10-hE0
Our 9th test video is a Hot Weather Feedlip Drop test. We baked fully loaded USGI Tan Follower and PMAG GEN M3 magazines at 180 degrees Fahrenheit for 96 hours to test feedlip retention before dropping them five feet onto concrete. We then tested the dropped magazines in full auto live fire with an HK 416.
Playlist of all the videos in this series-
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLLtq9scclwKVYVSGUsrOsprdHo_TKJt7
I bought some of the very first Gen 3s nefore Sandy Hook.
I only used five of 'em but the top two rounds would try to cross each other making it impossible to load on a closed bolt and causing a bolt over base occasionally on a locked back bolt.
Sold all of that mess.
Some early PMag gen 3s 20 rounders had issues seat with certain round combinations. Took us about a month of testing with different ammo types till we could duplicate it. This was early on and the issue was resolved in tooling so all new M3 20 rounders do not have this issue of not being able to seat.
Coming back to the AR platform after owning a Colt back in the late 80's I have done a lot of reading before purchasing my M4 recently.
My thinking is that the G2's were manufactured for my rifle and the G3's were manufactured to cover multiple designs.
It was obvious for me to go with the G2's cause they fit my platform and function fine and the big plus is that a shop in my area has them for $9 all day long and once in a while on sale for $8.
I did have a couple looked to be newer G2's that would not lock the bolt back and found some plastic flashing that had to be trimmed off and now they function fine.
Could not find any G2 20 rounders so I have one G3 which has been fine.
Clarence
This is correct. The PMag Gen M3 was designed to be compatible with many more platforms than the Gen M2 version such as the HK SA80A2, HK416, IAR, FN SCAR and IMI Tavor. They are also stronger in extreme temperatures along with having grip and marking capabilities. Most AR15 users do not want to pay extra for those features seeing the Gen M2 magazine is the version proven in large scale fielding in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
I do not want to get off topic here so mods delete or move if needed.
My background is over 30 years of automotive mechanics and now forensic mechanical failure analysis in the automotive industry.
Therefore I like to analyze things for cause of failure.
Question is what were and cause of the gen2 20rd magazine problems ?
Not that it matters cause the gen3 20 rounder that I have has been flawless to date.
I have extensively tested 14 gen2 30 rounders to be good to go and ordered 15 dust covers to put away into an ammo can completely loaded for the just in case situation. Just want to protect them from the moving and banging around that may happen while in the can and storage.
The top two rounds getting crossed over I could not duplicate by natural means, only way was to reach in and grab the second round and physically pull it up above the top round to replicate it. So to me it is a non issue with the magazines that I have in my possession.
Clarence
BufordTJustice
10-05-14, 17:49
The melt point in the polymer of the PMag is no where near a point where the polymer polymer will yield in a car. Even one in the AZ desert. For example here is a Gen M3 fully loaded 180 degrees hot soak video.
http://youtu.be/M3Exl10-hE0
Our 9th test video is a Hot Weather Feedlip Drop test. We baked fully loaded USGI Tan Follower and PMAG GEN M3 magazines at 180 degrees Fahrenheit for 96 hours to test feedlip retention before dropping them five feet onto concrete. We then tested the dropped magazines in full auto live fire with an HK 416.
Playlist of all the videos in this series-
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLLtq9scclwKVYVSGUsrOsprdHo_TKJt7
I don't know what to tell ya. The feedlips on my rev M PMAGs spread on me. The gen 3's have been fine.
EDIT: My 2008 Impala has the exhaust running directly under the trunk. Couple that with my radio transmitter being in the trunk and having weeks of near 100 degree days and you have a recipe for elevated temps. Further, I work day shift. This means going all day with the sun hammering down on my trunk lid.
All I know is the gen 3's have been rock solid.
I don't know what to tell ya. The feedlips on my rev M PMAGs spread on me. The gen 3's have been fine.
EDIT: My 2008 Impala has the exhaust running directly under the trunk. Couple that with my radio transmitter being in the trunk and having weeks of near 100 degree days and you have a recipe for elevated temps. Further, I work day shift. This means going all day with the sun hammering down on my trunk lid.
All I know is the gen 3's have been rock solid.
Sun exposure on metal will not do it but exhaust heat might. Send them to us and we will inspect them and then replace them.
The materials used in Gen2 and the M3s have similar melt temps so both should behave close to same in this regards.
BufordTJustice
10-05-14, 18:29
Sun exposure on metal will not do it but exhaust heat might. Send them to us and we will inspect them and then replace them.
I didn't fault the mags for it. My trunk gets so hot I can't touch it with my bare hands.
Those mags have long since been sold during the Newton scare. I'm pretty well stocked up on the gen 3's though. I appreciate the offer. I think the gen 3's are possibly the best mag on the market. The only other one that competes with it is the Lancer AWM. Nobody else is even close for my hard use.
I do not want to get off topic here so mods delete or move if needed.
My background is over 30 years of automotive mechanics and now forensic mechanical failure analysis in the automotive industry.
Therefore I like to analyze things for cause of failure.
Question is what were and cause of the gen2 20rd magazine problems ?
Not that it matters cause the gen3 20 rounder that I have has been flawless to date.
I have extensively tested 14 gen2 30 rounders to be good to go and ordered 15 dust covers to put away into an ammo can completely loaded for the just in case situation. Just want to protect them from the moving and banging around that may happen while in the can and storage.
The top two rounds getting crossed over I could not duplicate by natural means, only way was to reach in and grab the second round and physically pull it up above the top round to replicate it. So to me it is a non issue with the magazines that I have in my possession.
Clarence
The issue on the early 20 round M3 was "extreme transposition" of the rounds (with particular small case size) causing a failure to seat when inserting the magazine on a closed bolt. Transposition position of the rounds is normal due to the round stack curvature and does not affect the magazine function.
Here is the full range test report posted a month ago on this subject...
***Previous Posted Report***
I haven’t jumped in here ‘til now because we do in fact take every customer issue very seriously, and we wanted to do some additional testing of past and current product in order to have the most complete and absolute information. Although we looked at this exact occurrence in the PMAG30 in initial pre-release testing and again back when we looked at the PMAG20, we cleaned off the calendar and got busy at the range.
We’ve spent the last few days re-validating lab and range testing regarding the GEN M3 magazine and the behavior of the top two rounds, which we call “transposition”, just to make sure that nothing had changed, and that current results matched previous efforts. All molds, variants, and sizes have been looked at.
Since this thread got me out of the office and on the range, which I generally appreciate, I’ll give you the long version, so everyone that wants to wade through it will have the complete picture. Bear with me, it’s all relevant.
If you get bored with my rambling at any point, you can skip to the “Cliffs Notes” summary at the end.
The GEN M3 project began when we had accumulated significant enough advances in certain technologies to make a meaningful difference in some performance aspects, and to achieve universal fitment with Colt/M16/M4 and compatible platforms as well as platforms with the HK416/SA80 magwell. Although we already had a great track record in combat use and in many of these categories with the GENM2 or MREV PMAG, we never stop improvement efforts. Some of the aspects that we sought and achieved improvement on were drop-free performance in min-spec magwells, improved stiffness, strength, and durability, improved performance in cold weather to -60 deg F, improved performance in dust and grit, and overall feeding reliability.
These efforts resulted in a magazine that has been successful in achieving our goals, and that we are confident is the most reliable and durable magazine available. We’ve got over a quarter of a million rounds downrange at this point, it’s been through field trials with military units, it’s in law enforcement service, it’s been downrange, it is used by many of the most successful competitive shooters and trainers in the world, and we continually test for QC.
OK…this is where we tie this in to the issue at hand. I’ll talk about what you are seeing, and then I’ll tell you what our test results show. This requires us to share more about the PMAG than we’d like, but here goes…
Dust and grit are enemies of firearms and magazines in general. In current conflicts, as much or more so, than in any previous operational environment, these factors can be deadly if your gear can’t take it. The GEN M2 PMAG works very well in dust/grit tests, but we wanted to improve this with the Gen M3. Friction or drag on the stack/follower/individual rounds on the way to the chamber is what makes grit stop guns, and the PMAG combats this in numerous ways. Relevant to the current topic of discussion is the fact that we minimize the contact that the round has with other surfaces as much as possible. Less surface contact equals less drag. Feeding into the chamber is as important as when riding up the stack in the mag body. To minimize drag/friction, we minimize contact with mag/other cartridge surfaces while still completely and resiliently controlling feed geometry. To do this, you have to flirt with instability to some extent, and get the mix just right. Too much contact equals great control without optimized drag. Too little contact equals minimal drag and a mag that won’t feed worth a darn because presentation isn’t controlled. It’s a fine line. We’re always looking for ways to improve, but this is the best way we’ve found to do it, and it works very, very well.
This transposition is rare in other magazines, but can occur in some of the samples we’ve tested, probably due to tolerance variation more than design intent due to the inconsistency of its occurrence. It may occur with a flick, a smack, or extended carry in a pouch depending on the sample, but is generally less likely than with a PMAG.
All PMAGs play this balancing act very well, and especially in the GEN M3, this manifests itself in what may appear to be the rounds at the top of the stack having some “freedom”. With various manipulations of a loaded mag, you may indeed be able to induce this partial “transposition” of the top two rounds to a lesser or greater extent, depending a great deal on ammunition type/shoulder size. Smaller diameter ammunition shoulders, even a few thousandths, may allow this to occur more readily than larger diameter, but still in-spec ammunition. On a few of the PMAG20 GEN M3 magazines, there was enough of a tolerance stacking issue where you could indeed, with the right combination of gun, ammo, and mag, induce a failure that would not allow seating, but we have not seen that since the fix for those affected mags, or in any other magazines across the entire line, without deliberately setting up a failure by prying up the round with a tool, to the same extent that you can do that in any other magazine, and believe me, we’ve tested a lot of combinations. The PMAG20 was long ago corrected, and we monitor this in QC with all mags.
As long as loaded rounds do not to creep forward enough to catch the front edge of the mag when you try to insert it (possible with any magazine…try it) you should have no problem inserting and locking the magazine on a closed bolt, regardless of the position of the rounds with respect to this transposition occurrence. The required force may increase a bit, but we’ll get to how much in a minute--certainly nothing unreasonable. The first time the bolt starts rearward, the stack self-corrects, if it hasn’t already self-corrected on insertion. If I had a nickel for every time we’ve tested this on the GEN M3 mags to prove it, I’d be typing this from a hammock in Fiji.
To illustrate what I’m talking about, I’ll cover some of our testing.
In the lab, we assemble magazines from every line, deliberately induce a transposition with a variety of ammunition, and then measure insertion force on a closed bolt with a fixture and a force gauge. FWIW, the normal force required to seat a fully loaded PMAG on a closed bolt, depending on firearm and ammunition, is around 14-17lbs. The worst cases of transposition induced by any method other than using a tool to deliberately pry a round up require a closed bolt seating pressure of 28-31lbs, and most are less. You may say, “Whoa, there…that’s double!” However, when you put it in context, it changes a bit. The seating force required to seat an ideal condition USGI loaded with 28, 29, or 30 rounds (We baseline all 3 loading conditions) averages 15-21 lbs, and when we set up transpositions on the USGI by impacts to the magazine, flicking, or in some cases prying as with the worst case deliberate PMAG transpositions, the force varied from 32-47lbs, with some outliers in the 50’s and 60’s. The transposition occurs more readily in most, but not all combinations of PMAG and ammunition, than in other magazines, as it should…because this is a side-effect of our intended geometry. However, in magazines where it occurs more easily, it also CORRECTS more easily, and the force variability is smaller. This should put the numbers in perspective, and yes, we have people who spend days at a time beating, flicking, slapping, dropping and abusing magazines and then putting them into rifles using a force gauge. We wouldn’t be what we are without them.
On the range we do variations of this in actual usage as well as in set ups that are more regimented. The Product Management/Dynamics portion of this testing this week, to exhaustively vet the issue with our crew personally prior to writing this, went something like this:
Loaded magazines, samples from each line, tac reloading: Fire 2 rounds, tactical reload, fire 2 rounds, etc. Between tactical reloads, magazines were handled in a manner that attempted to deliberately induce the transposition.
Load magazines fully. With an already loaded chamber, deliberately set up a transposition. If we couldn’t get it by other means, we’d pry the round up with another loaded round or knife blade until we got a nasty one. Insert and lock the mag, assessing required force. Fire 3 rounds. Remove magazine. Repeat setup and firing until mag empty.
Load mags. Place in plate carrier. Do “burpees”, run sprints, roll on ground, slap mag pouches, chest bump, etc., then tac reload repeatedly to cycle through mags in carrier to see to what seating forces we’d see and see if we could unintentionally get transpositions. Repeat with various numbers of rounds in magazine, below maximum capacity.
Here’s what I can tell you about the PMAG GEN M3. In the thousands of times we’ve deliberately set these transpositions up previously, and in the hundreds of times today, not in ANY case have we been able to cause a malfunction of the firearm. EVERY time, it has fired, ejected, and fed flawlessly from a deliberate attempt to get the nastiest condition possible.
The only time that significant force was required to seat the mag was when the transposition had to be forcibly created with a prying tool in a specific magazine/ammunition combination. In these combinations, unintentional transpositions or transpositions using any method besides prying were simply not possible, and had to be forced—just like you can do with any other magazine. All other seating forces were in line with the previous ranges in lab testing. (Regardless of seating force, once again…100% reliability in function)
In tactical reloading/closed bolt reloading, in actual usage or field/range testing, we have NEVER seen a case where this issue prevented magazine insertion. Increased force required tending toward the higher end of the previously discussed range, occasionally? Yes, but it’s not something you notice more than casually when using a sound push/pull mag swap, unless you are specifically looking for it.
So…is there a safety of use or reliability issue? No, if the magazine is inserted and locked in the rifle the magazine will run normally.
“Cliffs Notes” summary if you got tired halfway through:
The occurrence referenced by the OP is a side effect of design geometry that aids magazine function in adverse conditions by minimizing round contact with other surfaces at and near feeding position.
The only “negative” implications of this “transposition” effect is an occasional increase in closed bolt seating force over “ideal” round stack conditions. This seating force may vary slightly based on ammunition tolerances and magwell size in the host firearm, but in all but willfully deliberate setups requiring the use of a prying tool, falls well within the realm of normal closed bolt insertion pressures for USGI and other competing magazines. I can bore you with standard deviations from the mean, etc., but I’ll spare you the pain.
Although this transposition naturally occurs more rarely in USGI and other magazines, it can be induced in many samples through rough handling without prying, and it can indeed be induced with a prying tool, just like in the forced setups we had to do in many of our PMAG test combinations. These transpositions, especially in a USGI, may appear less significant, but may require much more force to seat when they occur.
In THOUSANDS of deliberate setups, at no time has this occurrence EVER caused a failure to feed or function in all of our body of testing.
With the exception of the previously corrected batch of GEN M3 20rd mags, in no case, in our entire body of testing of PMAGs (or any other mags, for that matter) has a transposition caused an inability to seat the mag unless the transposition was so difficult to induce as to require a prying tool of some sort, and be completely out of the realm of anything we’ve ever seen occur through any other means. This type of transposition is duplicatible in ANY AR-pattern magazine.
What we are going to do:
Although we have not seen any incidences in a vast body of testing where this occurrence creates any functional concern, we will set in place a tighter tolerance level in the area of the Gen M3s that allows this transposition to happen in order to address the perception of a problem. This will resolve any issue of noticeably higher force to insert a magazine in the most extreme cases, and even further reduce the likelihood of unintentional occurrence of transposition that affects insertion in any meaningful way. The vast majority of Gen M3s already fielded are already within this tolerance, and our ongoing testing shows that we do not lose any adverse condition function with magazines on the tighter end of this acceptable window, so there is no reason to not clamp it down a bit.
Anyone with Gen M3 magazines that require more force than they feel is acceptable or normal to insert can contact us for a one for one replacement with Gen M3 magazines that will be tested to be within the tighter end of the tolerance range. Those who are comfortable with the insertion characteristics of their existing magazines can rest assured that there are absolutely zero reliability or functional concerns.
R,
Duane
Mr. Fitzpatrick;
Thank you so much for your detailed explanation to my question.
Just a heads up I posted earlier of a gen2 30 round mag that I had to remove a sliver of plastic flashing because it would not lock open on the last round.
Instead of PMAG MOE as my others it has PMAG 30 M with a rougher texture to the mag compared to the PMAG MOE.
Just took a razor knife and took a sliver off of the right rear upper edge in the V or U section where the flashing was at to keep it from contacting the bolt stop which prevented the follower to raise all the way up under spring tension.
Clarence
BufordTJustice
10-06-14, 06:36
RichFitz, I feel remiss for not thanking you for reaching out in this thread. Magpul has some of the very best customer service of any company in any industry, on top of making top quality products.
I truly appreciate you taking the time to respond with substantive information and real solutions.
The gen [2] 20s were pretty well known to have reliability issues and is one of the few products that Magpul has stopped producing due to those issues. The Gen 3 20s have been fine for me, though I do prefer the profile(shorter) of the usgi 20s.
When I researched mags a little while back there were enough reports of the Gen2 20's either failing to lock the bolt back on empty or failing to feed (usually with the 2nd to last round out of the mag) that I decided to use my one Gen2 20 at the range only, and of course not buy any more.
Then I had a failure to feed on the second to last round out of that mag (Colt 6920 and Federal XM193, only malfunction of any kind that rifle has had in 2,900 rounds). So I definitely avoid the Gen2 20 round PMAGs now. NHMTG 20 rounders are excellent by all reports, and mine have been great
FYI Straight body 20 round PMags were Gen 1. There were no Gen 2 versions of this mag and it's replacement was the Gen 3 curved 20 rounder.
The primary issue we had with the Gen 1 mags was the bolt not locking back due to the tilting follower in the straight wall design.
I still like the original 20s. Never had any lock back problems on any of ours, and wouldn't care if we did. They're good prone shooting mags.
RichFitz, I feel remiss for not thanking you for reaching out in this thread. Magpul has some of the very best customer service of any company in any industry, on top of making top quality products.
I truly appreciate you taking the time to respond with substantive information and real solutions.
You are very welcome. I have to deal with TOS General Discussion Board which makes this a welcome break.
I still like the original 20s. Never had any lock back problems on any of ours, and wouldn't care if we did. They're good prone shooting mags.
I never had the issue either but we had reports and could duplicate it in the lab. I have tried to resurrect the straight 20 but so far no luck.
I never had the issue either but we had reports and could duplicate it in the lab. I have tried to resurrect the straight 20 but so far no luck.
I bet the issue was with over gassed carbines... Excessive bolt speed will out run the follower's ability to push the bolt catch up in time.
JBecker 72
10-06-14, 08:44
Maybe I'll send my 3 gen 3's in for replacement then. I've tried them in a Colt, BCM, RRA, Stag, Aero Precision, and LMT and they stick in all of them.
Beat Trash
10-06-14, 08:47
I own 2 of the Gen2 20 rd PMAG's. They came with a Colt 6720 I bought a few years ago. For my needs, a 20 rd magazine is only useful when bench shooting off of a table at the range.
My AR shooting centers around LEO Patrol Rifle/duty usage, protecting the homestead, training, and relieving stress at a plinking range. For all of these purposes, a 30 rd magazine works better.
I've owned Gen1, Gen2 and Gen3 PMAGs. I had an issue with about a dozen of the Gen1 magazines that spread on me over time. I called MagPul about this issue (this was shortly after the introduction of the Gen2 magazine). When I explained the issue to the customer service rep, all he said was, "Hmm... That shouldn't have happened. Send them in and I'll replace them".
Guys, that is how a company creates a loyal customer.
I haven't had issues with the Gen2 m revision magazines I've used since they came out. I bought some Gen3 magazines and received them just before the craziness caused by Sandy Hook started. I really liked the improvements made over the Gen2. Subtle, but noticeable. I ordered several more once they became available and rotated them into my training and duty magazines.
Recently I unloaded a few of my duty magazines and discovered that two of my Gen3 mags no longer dropped free. They did when placed into service. These magazines still drop free in a Colt 6920, but in three of my DDM4's, they don't (One of which is my duty rifle). And once again, they dropped free when placed into service.
I placed these two mags on top of the safe and replaced them with new ones. I had planned on dedicating these two magazines for training only. No big deal, magazines should be considered a wear item in my opinion, whether pistol or rifle magazines. But I got to wondering, so I sent an email to MagPul's Tech email. I explained the issue and I asked one simple question, "Which design is stronger and less likely to spread over time, the Gen2 or the Gen3?" I got a reply back stating in simple terms that the Gen3 is an overall stronger design. I also got an offer to replace the two magazines that I had issue with.
People like to complain and b*tch about a product the moment they have an issue with it. It's human nature I guess. My experience with these two Gen3 magazines is NOT enough to turn me off of them. I keep about 10 PMAG's fully loaded at any one time. Some spend their life in a trunk, living in a bag that goes back and forth from a personal vehicle to a marked vehicle. Even though these two mags didn't drop free, they still functioned. I used them to shoot an annual state qualification course with.
There may be another magazine out there that can complete with the PMAG as far as function and durability. But They would have to do so while still having a company's customer service policy centered around a "No BS excuses" attitude of standing behind their product. Until then, I'm staying with MagPul.
Right now, if you shop around you can find both the Gen2 and Gen3 magazines for under $10.00. I have a bunch of Gen2 magazines still in the wrapper, and would not hesitate to use them in a heartbeat. I have no intention of dumping them. But for the extra buck or two, the subtile differences the Gen3 brings to the table is worth it to me. As I buy new magazines, they will be Gen3's.
On a side note, all of my PMAG's are black, as they match the black lower receivers. If I change the color of the receivers, then I'll paint some magazines to match!
Maybe I'll send my 3 gen 3's in for replacement then. I've tried them in a Colt, BCM, RRA, Stag, Aero Precision, and LMT and they stick in all of them.
That shouldn't be the case, and we'll be glad to swap them out.
On drop free:
There's no free lunch. I've posted before on our theory of magazine design, and how repeatable, correct geometry is king, as well as why our polymer behaves the way it does--no matter what, feed lip geometry won't change as it will with metal mags or those with metal lips, metal reinforcements, or even softer, more flexible polymers.
Part of that geometry needs to be the fit in the mag well and the degree to which magazine movement inside the mag well affects presentation. Too much slop, and you can end up outside the realm of ideal or even acceptable geometry when shooting from magazine monopod or other magazine contact. So, we aim to be drop free...but we try to cut it as close as we can. Our tolerance variations are extremely small, but mag wells on the small side of mil-spec, thick or rough ano, cerakoted lowers, etc., can stack up to create a bit of drag.
Usually, with the M3 and an in-spec, but small mag well, a couple dozen insertions is all it takes to wear off the tiniest bit of texture, and it's drop free from there. If not, we'll gladly swap them out.
The GEN M3 updates addressed a few concerns from the GEN M2...it actually drops free from most smaller mag wells better (barring outliers), it is plenty durable at extreme cold (-60F), the mag catch area is more stout to address wear concerns on magazines which stay in service for a loooong time, the compatibility with 416/IAR, and plenty of other little details. The GEN M2 is a great, proven magazine, but having seen the testing first hand, I'm all GEN M3, all the time.
The reliability of the GEN M2 is extremely high by any measure. The reliability of the GEN M3 is borderline ludicrous. Tens of thousands of rounds with the only stoppages limited to bad primers or rifle parts breakage is not easy to achieve. Anyone can make a box of metal or plastic and have it survive rough handling tests, drops, or feed reliably enough that it appears to work well in statistically small sample sizes of rounds. Working everytime, all the time, at levels of performance which make magazine geeks like us giddy takes a lot of time evaluating high speed film, a mountain of brass, and a lot of freakishly smart folks, among other things.
The end of colors announcement was largely a supply chain thing, and with the move to a much larger facility in WY and the capabilities that brings once settled, who knows what might make sense on color options for both M2 and M3? It is definitely something we look at continuously, and we are constantly testing new materials, designs, and features--hundreds of material and design experiments just since the release of the GEN M3, in a variety of colors and properties.
vicious_cb
10-06-14, 11:37
Threads like this are why I continue to buy magpul products. Ive had to use their customer service maybe 5-6 times since the introduction of the first pmag for various odd ball defects some of which were purely cosmetic but I was still taken care of none the less.
thebarracuda
01-31-15, 22:39
That shouldn't be the case, and we'll be glad to swap them out.
On drop free:
There's no free lunch. I've posted before on our theory of magazine design, and how repeatable, correct geometry is king, as well as why our polymer behaves the way it does--no matter what, feed lip geometry won't change as it will with metal mags or those with metal lips, metal reinforcements, or even softer, more flexible polymers.
Part of that geometry needs to be the fit in the mag well and the degree to which magazine movement inside the mag well affects presentation. Too much slop, and you can end up outside the realm of ideal or even acceptable geometry when shooting from magazine monopod or other magazine contact. So, we aim to be drop free...but we try to cut it as close as we can. Our tolerance variations are extremely small, but mag wells on the small side of mil-spec, thick or rough ano, cerakoted lowers, etc., can stack up to create a bit of drag.
Usually, with the M3 and an in-spec, but small mag well, a couple dozen insertions is all it takes to wear off the tiniest bit of texture, and it's drop free from there. If not, we'll gladly swap them out.
The GEN M3 updates addressed a few concerns from the GEN M2...it actually drops free from most smaller mag wells better (barring outliers), it is plenty durable at extreme cold (-60F), the mag catch area is more stout to address wear concerns on magazines which stay in service for a loooong time, the compatibility with 416/IAR, and plenty of other little details. The GEN M2 is a great, proven magazine, but having seen the testing first hand, I'm all GEN M3, all the time.
The reliability of the GEN M2 is extremely high by any measure. The reliability of the GEN M3 is borderline ludicrous. Tens of thousands of rounds with the only stoppages limited to bad primers or rifle parts breakage is not easy to achieve. Anyone can make a box of metal or plastic and have it survive rough handling tests, drops, or feed reliably enough that it appears to work well in statistically small sample sizes of rounds. Working everytime, all the time, at levels of performance which make magazine geeks like us giddy takes a lot of time evaluating high speed film, a mountain of brass, and a lot of freakishly smart folks, among other things.
The end of colors announcement was largely a supply chain thing, and with the move to a much larger facility in WY and the capabilities that brings once settled, who knows what might make sense on color options for both M2 and M3? It is definitely something we look at continuously, and we are constantly testing new materials, designs, and features--hundreds of material and design experiments just since the release of the GEN M3, in a variety of colors and properties.
Necro post I know.... But such a good post by Duane on the gen3 pmags, coupled with the release of the new sand colored pmags, I thought I'd bump it for anyone who missed it the first time.
You are very welcome. I have to deal with TOS General Discussion Board which makes this a welcome break.
It is wonderful having real experts and a respectful conversation. One of the reasons this is my go to site.
It is wonderful having real experts and a respectful conversation. One of the reasons this is my go to site.
Agreed. As a retailer, I get more info like that here than pretty much anywhere else.
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