View Full Version : 9mm SBR Build Questions
OK, all. I'm currently wading through all of the 9mm AR threads, trying to do my own research, but some of them are old enough that the info may not be current. Here's what I'm trying to do:
I'm looking to build a 9mm AR SBR (probably do it as a pistol first and register it as an SBR). I have a 9mm can on order already to go with it. I'm currently trying to decide if I want to go the Glock mag route (I have a supply of G17 mags already) and do a dedicated lower like the DDLES or the Lone Wolf, or if I want to do a standard lower, install a Hahn block, and use Colt/Metlaform mags. I'm aware that DDLES is having availability issues, so that practically limits me to the Lone Wolf. The lower in question will be dedicated to the 9mm SBR (regardless of whether it is a standard lower with a removable block or a 9mm-specific lower). My concerns are:
1. Reliability. First and foremost, I don't like wasting time and money on projects that continue to be ongoing works in progress. I want the damned thing to work. Period. I'm willing to pay the money up front to ensure that. The gun will need to run with 147gr HPs, as well as your standard 115/124 gr ball ammo.
2. I want to build my own uppers (I know how to do this for 5.56 and .300 BLK already, so any sort of proprietary "you have to buy our uppers and we don't supply parts" jack***ery is a non-starter.
3. LRBHO. This isn't an absolute must-have, but it sure is nice, in order to be consistent with my other ARs.
4. Magazines. I already have Glock mags. In order to get the other stuff I want (reliability, commonality with other parts, LRBHO) I'm willing to buy the Colt/Metalform mags.
Which way do you think I should go, and, perhaps more importantly, what am I not thinking about that is important?
Thanks,
Mike
When I decided on parts for my build, I went with a dedicated CMMG 9 mm stripped lower. Complete lowers are also available for reasonable prices. The dedicated lower costs less than a standard lower and mag block. The upper is done but I haven't finished the lower yet.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411551095/CMM+STRIPPED+LOWER+9MM
I'm in the process of a 9mm ar pistol build.
One thing to keep in mind about Glock magazine compatible lowers is that DDLES is out of business. While Jon was very accommodating to me, apparently there were some issues. Quarter Circle 10 (http://www.qcircle10.com/glock-small-frame-lower.html) has taken over their machinery and production. Based upon some IG posts from XProducts, it looks like like QC10 will be rebranding these lowers for other companies as well (http://instagram.com/p/tyfe_hPwB7/). The DDLES style lowers will be popping up in a bunch of different places.
XProducts
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz267/edmateo50/1412557878_zps2bf24b5e.jpg
I was also looking at JP Rifles. Their GMR13 looks promising. They will start selling the lowers by themselves soon.
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz267/edmateo50/1412557909_zpsb0385325.jpg
(CA legal version)
Thank you!
Does the CMMG have a LRBHO? Is there a consensus on the reliability of the two different systems (Colt or Glock mags)?
I really like the look of those DDLES/QC10 lowers. Appearances aside, though, practical considerations are more important to me.
Thanks!
Mike
I believe they both do. On the DDLES style, there is a small strip of metal that connects the front of the Glock mag follower to the traditional AR bolt release. It does require a special spring that they provide.
I haven't seen pics of the internals of the JP lower.
Special spring for the glock mag, or spring for the bolt catch?
Spring for the bolt catch
What about the KPOS http://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-pistol-to-carbine-conversion-kit/id-266/2nd-gen-pdw-conversion-kit-for-glock-9mm-models-.html I've kinda kicked around 9mm SBR, I also have every thing Glock/mags stacked deep as well as can. Just giving out suggestion (not tryin to drift thread, as it says 9mm SBR build, and OP hasn't bought lower/upper yet) that uses Glock mags and might be a little less expensive. Hopefully people with insight both pros/cons can weigh in.
D.O.A.F.S.
10-05-14, 20:43
I went through this a year ago looking to do the same thing, build a reliable 9mm sbr. Having the glock mags already may change things a little, "maybe." I looked into building one as well and honestly till I added up what I thought I needed it was close to the same money as a Colt 6951. Grant has them in stock for $1050. I just did a Form 1 on it, shot and enjoyed it with 16 inch barrel till the paperwork cleared and then installed the 10 inch BCM barrel that I bought from Grant. The Colt has ran flawless with anything I've ran through it, and I couldn't be happier. It just seemed to me that with 9mm builds some guys had good luck and some not so much. With the Colt you have the warranty if by chance you have problems, with a build your on your own. I just wanted one that would run rite out of the box, but that's just me.
The only problem with the 6951 is that I like the upper and the lower, but everything in front of and behind them would get tossed. ;) So, instead of comparing the cost of the 6951 to a home build, I'd be using the 6951 as my start point and adding money from there. No go.
OK, that's overly dramatic ... I'd yank the parts and sell them, but still, I'm starting money behind and ending even more money behind.
Mike
D.O.A.F.S.
10-05-14, 21:05
The only problem with the 6951 is that I like the upper and the lower, but everything in front of and behind them would get tossed. ;) So, instead of comparing the cost of the 6951 to a home build, I'd be using the 6951 as my start point and adding money from there. No go.
OK, that's overly dramatic ... I'd yank the parts and sell them, but still, I'm starting money behind and ending even more money behind.
Mike
I hear you... I just added a CTR stock and moe grip at first then when I did the barrel swap installed a DD Lite rail.
The only problem with the 6951 is that I like the upper and the lower, but everything in front of and behind them would get tossed. ;) So, instead of comparing the cost of the 6951 to a home build, I'd be using the 6951 as my start point and adding money from there. No go.
OK, that's overly dramatic ... I'd yank the parts and sell them, but still, I'm starting money behind and ending even more money behind.
Mike
Thankfully Grant has a lot of the 9mm components in stock. I ordered my upper, buffer and buffer spacer from him. Brownells had the Colt bolt carrier group in stock as well. Originally I was just going to use my pistol upper occasionally and bought the YHM mag adapter. 50 rounds later, I ordered a dedicated lower from QC10.
As far as bolt carriers go, I believe JP Rifles is one of the few that sell a carrier properly ramped for Glock mags. I will probably send my Colt to ADCO to have it ramped as well.
Ignoring cost, is there an advantage to using Glock mags over Colt mags? Which system is more reliable?
I just finished my 9mm build. I almost went with the Lone Wolf, but decided at the last minute I would give Quarter Circle 10 a shot. I called QC10 and immediately received an answer from Russ who I believe is the owner. Very nice guy, very informative, great customer service. I emailed him my dealers FFL info and ordered the lower. Received it 3 days later. The Lone Wolf does not have a LRBHO. QC10 does and I have read mixed reviews about it working or not through the previous DDLES name. To me that was not a deal breaker, as I figured I would be able to tweek it if needed. Mine worked 100% out of the box with the supplied spring from QC10. I run mine mostly suppressed and it functions perfect. I just posted a build list and a pic on here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159011-Dedicated-9mm
Ignoring cost, is there an advantage to using Glock mags over Colt mags? Which system is more reliable?
Difficult to answer unless you have experience with both. Hopefully someone who has experience with each will come along.
The Metalform (Colt OEM maker) 32 rounders can be found around $30 if you are patient. I picked up 3 from CDNN and they still have them ($29.99).
I will try and pick up some of these off brand lowers and build some 9mm AR's using as man Colt parts as possible.
IWI has said to me that their 32rd mags work with the Colt system. I have not tested this though. These mags would be another option.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=TSM932B
C4
yeah, in theory, the Glock mag compatability is a bonus, as I already have G17 mags. However, lets be realistic ... I won't be happy until I have 33 rounders, so I'm buying mags anyway.
D.O.A.F.S.
10-06-14, 09:30
I will try and pick up some of these off brand lowers and build some 9mm AR's using as man Colt parts as possible.
IWI has said to me that their 32rd mags work with the Colt system. I have not tested this though. These mags would be another option.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=TSM932B
C4
Grant can you verify the function of these mags in a Colt? If they do run I would be interested.
Grant can you verify the function of these mags in a Colt? If they do run I would be interested.
Yep, is on my things to do list.
C4
Same here
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I got a DDLES lower a year ago and am very happy with it. I had used the colt system for 15 years or so with registered m16 lowers and DIAS. I completely made the switch to glock mag lowers and am happy. The only thing better about the colt setup is ease of mag loading with the double feed colt mags. The DDLES LRBHO worked great after I relieved a smidge from my ancient colt bolt. Newer bolts do not contact the stock bolt stop catch like my old bolt did. The ergonomics and angle of the DDLES lower are superior IMHO. My DIAS works great with it too. I want to buy the QC large frame lower too. Anyone want a nine CNC grease gun lower?
Do you think the difference was in the mag system, or the design of the lower? I understand that some factors are inseperable (for instance, the angle), but some are ... QC10 makes both Colt and Glock lowers. If you had to start over, and had an ample supply of both Glock and Colt magazines, would you buy a QC10 Glock or QC10 Colt lower?
thanks, I find your opinion to be very helpful.
Mike
If you want ease of loading, then go with the Colt mag version. It's a proven system. I started out with a 635 setup - I bought a SMG parts kit and used this with a Colt M16 lower. Later on, I sold this upper and went with a custom upper with a flat top, float tube, short barrel, and a suppressor that telescoped under the float tube. Again, I used this setup with a Colt M16 lower, so it was just an updated subgun.
If you want compatibility between your subgun and your sidearm, then go with the Glock mag system. In my newer setup, I have an EXTREMELY short 3-lug barrel and use a modified MP5K fore-grip with a custom piece/barrel nut/rail. The k-grip is very close to the front take down lug. From the front of the upper receiver forward, it looks like an MP5K. As such, when I used it with a standard AR lower with the DIAS or with the M16 lower, there was no room to hook my thumb behind the k-grip and the front of the magwell. I rested my thumb to the side. But then I got the DDLES lower, and its rearward sloping angle of the front of the magwell allows me to hook my thumb behind the foregrip. The LRBHO functions 100%. I like the Glock 33 rnd mags too. For me, this setup is much more 'modern'.
And from an aesthetic standpoint, the Glock mag at a raked angle and the raked angle of the front of the magwell just look nicer/newer/more modern to me. The lines are clean and sexy. It's a beautiful design. To me, the tried and true Colt system is a bit dated and slightly awkward in appearance and concept.
I sold all of my Colt mags too - I had 9 pre-94 32 rounders and 1 20. Every time I go to the Creek, including this coming weekend, I just buy another Glock 33 rnd mag to add to the pile.
Do you think the difference was in the mag system, or the design of the lower? I understand that some factors are inseperable (for instance, the angle), but some are ... QC10 makes both Colt and Glock lowers. If you had to start over, and had an ample supply of both Glock and Colt magazines, would you buy a QC10 Glock or QC10 Colt lower?
thanks, I find your opinion to be very helpful.
Mike
If you want ease of loading, then go with the Colt mag version. It's a proven system. I started out with a 635 setup - I bought a SMG parts kit and used this with a Colt M16 lower. Later on, I sold this upper and went with a custom upper with a flat top, float tube, short barrel, and a suppressor that telescoped under the float tube. Again, I used this setup with a Colt M16 lower, so it was just an updated subgun.When you say "ease of loading," do you mean ease of loading the magazine, or ease of inserting the magazine into the gun?
And from an aesthetic standpoint, the Glock mag at a raked angle and the raked angle of the front of the magwell just look nicer/newer/more modern to me. The lines are clean and sexy. It's a beautiful design. To me, the tried and true Colt system is a bit dated and slightly awkward in appearance and concept.See, I think I actually like the "straight stick" look a little better, but not so much that it would trump practical considerations. I was hoping that there was some technical consideration that put one system ahead of the other, but that seems not to be the case.
They're about the same with regard to reliability?
They're about the same with regard to magazine durability?
They seem about the same in the use department ... yes? No?
Thanks again, it is very helpful to have the input of someone who has actually used both.
Mike
hmm...the resurgence of ddles lowers as circle 10 has me very interested.
Are these Glock mag lowers compatible with Colt 9mm upper?
I believe the bolt needs to be relieved to clear the mag. I think that's the only mod required, but I (obviously) don't own one.
bigpighunter
10-07-14, 06:46
Yes, the bolt needs to be cut to fit the glock feed lips which ADCO does for a fee and they also sell them. JP ent. Sells them also and heard great reviews about them. QC10 also has bolts for sale now and barrels.
When you say "ease of loading," do you mean ease of loading the magazine, or ease of inserting the magazine into the gun?See, I think I actually like the "straight stick" look a little better, but not so much that it would trump practical considerations. I was hoping that there was some technical consideration that put one system ahead of the other, but that seems not to be the case.
They're about the same with regard to reliability?
They're about the same with regard to magazine durability?
They seem about the same in the use department ... yes? No?
Thanks again, it is very helpful to have the input of someone who has actually used both.
Mike
Ease of loading magazines. They're double feed, so you can just jam rounds straight in the top. But with Glock and other single feed mags, you have to slide the rounds in from the front. Single feed mags are just not as easy to load.
There is no technical consideration that puts one system ahead of the other. They function in a similar manner.
I notice no difference in reliability. Both systems are utterly reliable.
Glock magazines might not be as durable as Colt mags - the steel on Colt mags is pretty thick. But I've never had a problem with Glock mags. They are universally accepted.
I cannot say about department use, other than that the Colt mags will not work in any known pistol.
Standard bolts require a minor cut/relief to the bottom in order to work with single feed Glock mags.
Additionally, some bolts may require more of a relief on the bottom to clear the bolt stop catch as the DDLES LRBHO device sits under a stock bolt stop catch and displaces it a bit - thus causing contact with some bolts. It's a 1 minute job with a dremel to relieve the spot that catches.
The Glock system looks like it was meant to work as a system, like it was meant to be that way. The Colt system is what it is - an expedient method to adapt something to something else.
Are these Glock mag lowers compatible with Colt 9mm upper?
Yes, they should be. We setup a dealer account with circle 10 and will offer packages with their lowers.
C4
Yes, they should be. We setup a dealer account with circle 10 and will offer packages with their lowers.
C4
That is great news!! I ordered one online from them this week. If it works out, I will order my next one through G&R! These lowers seem great for pistol builds.
Grant, just in case you were planning on offering a CA option, Raddlock offers a simple mag lock for the Glock pattern lowers.
That is great news!! I ordered one online from them this week. If it works out, I will order my next one through G&R! These lowers seem great for pistol builds.
Grant, just in case you were planning on offering a CA option, Raddlock offers a simple mag lock for the Glock pattern lowers.
Cool. We generally just remove the mag catch (all together) and let customers install whatever they like.
C4
Nytcrawler93
10-09-14, 11:02
Personally, I would use the Glock compatible or splurge for the Sig MPX....
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I am very tempted to get a glock lower myself. I just put together a 9mm setup using a mag block. I only bought one colt mag so far just to test out the system. Colt mags are nice, but I have tons of glock mags and also have several happy sticks ready to go with my self defense ammo. The simplicity of using one mag system is really appealing. I may just have to sell off the mag block and the mag and get one of these.
i have no glock mags so im going with colt style and a mag block
Personally, I would use the Glock compatible or splurge for the Sig MPX....
That MPX looks cool. No damned way I'd run a blowback 9mm AR. If I did a sub gun, I'd better be able to shoot is fast (low recoil).
Yes, they should be. We setup a dealer account with circle 10 and will offer packages with their lowers.
C4
Welp. This is just awesome. I'm in for one.
Grant, when are you going to have the circle 10 package available?
Thanks!
D.O.A.F.S.
12-03-14, 14:30
I will try and pick up some of these off brand lowers and build some 9mm AR's using as man Colt parts as possible.
IWI has said to me that their 32rd mags work with the Colt system. I have not tested this though. These mags would be another option.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=TSM932B
C4
I know with moving things have been crazy for you but did you ever get confirmation on the IWI mags working in a colt? I would be interested in 5 or so if they do.
I know with moving things have been crazy for you but did you ever get confirmation on the IWI mags working in a colt? I would be interested in 5 or so if they do.
They work.
C4
D.O.A.F.S.
12-03-14, 15:20
They work.
C4
Thank You Sir! Order inbound Friday
Waiting patiently on circle 10 lower kits... Hint nudge lol
Yes, they should be. We setup a dealer account with circle 10 and will offer packages with their lowers.
C4
I'd also like more info on this as well. I was about to order a lower from QC10 and piece everything together from other sources, but you have some good packages....
Late to the party, but at least I made it...
I'm currently in the parts - gathering stage of a 9mm AR pistol build. I looked long and hard (Phrasing!) at the two systems. I decided to go with the Colt pattern for two reasons, 1) aesthetics. I prefer the look of the straight mags better. And 2) I found out a company called GPI Manufacturing make a forged slimline 9mm AR lower that's significantly cheaper that the QC10 lowers.
I really love the looks of the QC10 lower, but at almost $300, it was a bit hard to justify, financially.
I should get my lower Saturday (God willing!) or Monday.
ETA: Got my lower Monday.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/halo2304/Guns/2015-01-12183031_zps0f4c558e.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/halo2304/Guns/20150112_173653_zps06c39030.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/halo2304/Guns/20150112_173639_zps8a841c17.jpg
I'm looking into a QC10 9mm lower the Glock mags are what got me interested. I was looking for a 9mm SBR BBL today. Grant your Colt upper looked like the way to go. I have a stripped Colt A1 9mm upper I may end up using. Do you guys have photos and updates on your builds? Grant did you ever add the 9mm lowers from CQ10? I couldn't find them. Do you have 10.5" Colt 9mm bbls?
I'm looking into a QC10 9mm lower the Glock mags are what got me interested. I was looking for a 9mm SBR BBL today. Grant your Colt upper looked like the way to go. I have a stripped Colt A1 9mm upper I may end up using. Do you guys have photos and updates on your builds? Grant did you ever add the 9mm lowers from CQ10? I couldn't find them. Do you have 10.5" Colt 9mm bbls?
+1"......
I'm looking into a QC10 9mm lower the Glock mags are what got me interested. I was looking for a 9mm SBR BBL today. Grant your Colt upper looked like the way to go. I have a stripped Colt A1 9mm upper I may end up using. Do you guys have photos and updates on your builds? Grant did you ever add the 9mm lowers from CQ10? I couldn't find them. Do you have 10.5" Colt 9mm bbls?
We have the lowers, but a re out of the Colt short barrels in 9mm currently.
C4
Waiting on some hardware for the PWS rail, I somehow misplaced the hardware. CMMG lower, 7.5" barrel with Kmights CQB flash hider. Nothing special, do plan to SBR it if we ever get out of IL
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/faawrenchbndr/9mm%20AR%20build/b4552fa774a0e369ae130b6a5ffa188b.jpg
Late to the party, but at least I made it...
I'm currently in the parts - gathering stage of a 9mm AR pistol build. I looked long and hard (Phrasing!) at the two systems. I decided to go with the Colt pattern for two reasons, 1) aesthetics. I prefer the look of the straight mags better. And 2) I found out a company called GPI Manufacturing make a forged slimline 9mm AR lower that's significantly cheaper that the QC10 lowers.
I really love the looks of the QC10 lower, but at almost $300, it was a bit hard to justify, financially.
I should get my lower Saturday (God willing!) or Monday.
ETA: Got my lower Monday.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/halo2304/Guns/2015-01-12183031_zps0f4c558e.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/halo2304/Guns/20150112_173653_zps06c39030.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/halo2304/Guns/20150112_173639_zps8a841c17.jpg
I was thinking about a bottom loading Hahn mag block. They retail for over $200 I found one at Brownells for $171.43. But at that point I was thinking I should just get a dedicated lower and. It sue one of my SBR's of course there is another $200 stamp too. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/caliber-conversion-kits/ar-15-m16-9mm-drop-in-conversion-blocks-prod1548.aspx
Grant,
For the life of me I cannot find the QC10 lowers. If you could PM me I have a few questions.
For the life of me I cannot find the QC10 lowers. If you could PM me I have a few questions.
Message sent
Grant,
For the life of me I cannot find the QC10 lowers. If you could PM me I have a few questions.
They are not on our website. Call to order.
C4
hk, didn't get a PM
Grant, I have some questions basically concerning SBR and transfer. I am in Wa State and right now SBR's are attainable but their are some hoops. That's why I was requesting a PM so I could bounce some ideas your way.
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