View Full Version : The great .308 debate
UPDATE: I wound up building a 308 vs. buying what was listed below. If you want to skip to the final build, go to reply #77
I plan to buy one, and only one, .308/7.62. So I want to do it right, and be done with it. I have narrowed it down to the top 3 I keep seeing pop up on threads here: LMT MWS, LaRue PredatAR 7.62, FN SCAR. The KAC sr25 is excellent but too rich for me. The purpose of the rifle will be fun at the range (inside 300 yards) and EOTW SHTF battle rifle from hell self defense. I want a 16 inch barrel and something that will require little extra work to make me happy.
I have never shot any of these (only held a SCAR in my hands), so I will be relying on those of you that have (hopefully shot all 3) for your opinions/rankings in the following areas:
1 - Weight - This is important and it hurts the LMT the most, as I believe it is at least a couple pounds heavier based on other threads I have read. Thought the weight I'm sure helps with recoil. This is another reason I'm considering the PredatAR and not the OBR, as I want a lighter rifle.
2 - Trigger - I'm told the SCAR trigger would need to be replaced. Thoughts on whether the LMT or Larue have a better trigger out of the box? I just put a SSA on my 6920 and absolutely love it.
3 - Parts/furniture flexibility - Seems the 308s have more proprietary parts based on some of your posts. Which of the 3 has the most options to customize? At some point I may want to put on a keymod rail, have more choices for mags, change the stock, extra BCG, etc...
4 - Recoil - Which has the least recoil or can be easily configured to reduce recoil?
5 - Accuracy/barrel - I assume you'd rank, LaRue, LMT, and SCAR in that order? Any thoughts on barrel life between the three?
The PredatAR 7.62 is probably the closest to what I want out of the box but I'm seeing wait times over a year for one of those bad boys. I'm betting some of you liked it a little better but weren't willing to wait and bought an LMT or SCAR?
Anyways chime in with your thoughts and let me know what I should be asking/thinking that I may have missed.
I don't have a lot of experience with AR .308s, but I do with the PredatAR. Like the HK G3, it uses a fluted chamber to improve ejection. Unlike the delayed roller blow-back on the G3, the AR DI action does NOT need a fluted chamber. As a result, both rifles are hard on brass, making for minimal reloading capability for the brass. I would say that the PredatAR is actually harder on brass than the G3. The fluting reduces friction for the case wall, which is fine when you are ejecting, but bad for the brass during ignition. The brass swells into the flutes, and since there is reduced friction on the chamber wall, the brass case head slams into the bolt face harder than a typical AR-10. The case head will actually flow into the ejector hole shearing off bits of case head during ejection. It's a good rifle otherwise, but very hard on brass. I've reloaded brass on M14s over a dozen times, but with a G3 or PredatAR I would probably only get a couple of reloads in.
trackmagic
10-06-14, 17:36
I plan to buy one, and only one, .308/7.62. So I want to do it right, and be done with it. I have narrowed it down to the top 3 I keep seeing pop up on threads here: LMT MWS, LaRue PredatAR 7.62, FN SCAR. The KAC sr25 is excellent but too rich for me. The purpose of the rifle will be fun at the range (inside 300 yards) and EOTW SHTF battle rifle from hell self defense. I want a 16 inch barrel and something that will require little extra work to make me happy.
I have never shot any of these (only held a SCAR in my hands), so I will be relying on those of you that have (hopefully shot all 3) for your opinions/rankings in the following areas:
1 - Weight - This is important and it hurts the LMT the most, as I believe it is at least a couple pounds heavier based on other threads I have read. Thought the weight I'm sure helps with recoil. This is another reason I'm considering the PredatAR and not the OBR, as I want a lighter rifle.
2 - Trigger - I'm told the SCAR trigger would need to be replaced. Thoughts on whether the LMT or Larue have a better trigger out of the box? I just put a SSA on my 6920 and absolutely love it.
3 - Parts/furniture flexibility - Seems the 308s have more proprietary parts based on some of your posts. Which of the 3 has the most options to customize? At some point I may want to put on a keymod rail, have more choices for mags, change the stock, extra BCG, etc...
4 - Recoil - Which has the least recoil or can be easily configured to reduce recoil?
5 - Accuracy/barrel - I assume you'd rank, LaRue, LMT, and SCAR in that order? Any thoughts on barrel life between the three?
The PredatAR 7.62 is probably the closest to what I want out of the box but I'm seeing wait times over a year for one of those bad boys. I'm betting some of you liked it a little better but weren't willing to wait and bought an LMT or SCAR?
Anyways chime in with your thoughts and let me know what I should be asking/thinking that I may have missed.
Consider building one. Your criteria sounds a lot like mine. In the end I determined that nothing met my criteria and budget. Rainier Arms is a great place to start. I got a few good deals via sales that were happening at the time. There is a lot of cool stuff coming out in the 308AR world right now.
trackmagic
10-06-14, 17:39
Consider building one. Your criteria sounds a lot like mine. In the end I determined that nothing met my criteria and budget. Rainier Arms is a great place to start. I got a few good deals via sales that were happening at the time. There is a lot of cool stuff coming out in the 308AR world right now.
Regarding your question #3. I would go with the SR25 (aka Gen 1 DPMS) pattern. Most of the serious manufacturers are using this profile and the majority of accessories are for these (including Pmags which work with both DPMS profiles).
S&W M&P10, while not on your list, seems to meet your criteria.
Very light. You can put a SSA on it. It's as compatible with after market parts as you can get in this platform, besides the bolt. It's surprisingly accurate for its price. And recoil can be worked on (muzzle break like the SCAR, swap on an adjustable gas block, heavier buffer, heavier spring, etc).
Consider building one. Your criteria sounds a lot like mine. In the end I determined that nothing met my criteria and budget. Rainier Arms is a great place to start. I got a few good deals via sales that were happening at the time. There is a lot of cool stuff coming out in the 308AR world right now.
I have considered this but am a bit intimidated by how much I don't know. I have never built a rifle and would need to find a gunsmith to be confident it is done right. If I have a first build it will be a 22.
I learned a lot from this thread but it also reinforced how much I have to learn:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?154622-Best-308-AR-(-2000-budget)/page2
As regards your #1 - Weight. I have an LMT MWS and do not see its weight as an issue. (I'm 5'10" and 170 lbs and 67). If I were going to be shooting off hand then maybe a little heavy. If you hang a bipod on front then it is a little less balanced. Recoil is mild - I do not like recoil - shooting the LMT MWS is a pleasure. I also carried an M-14 and M14A1 in the military - maybe that is why the weight is not an issue for me.
Eurodriver
10-07-14, 06:32
As regards your #1 - Weight. I have an LMT MWS and do not see its weight as an issue. (I'm 5'10" and 170 lbs and 67). If I were going to be shooting off hand then maybe a little heavy. If you hang a bipod on front then it is a little less balanced. Recoil is mild - I do not like recoil - shooting the LMT MWS is a pleasure. I also carried an M-14 and M14A1 in the military - maybe that is why the weight is not an issue for me.
How do you shoot it if it's not off hand?
How do you shoot it if it's not off hand?
Off hand (standing and no support). http://www.riflesilhouette.com/instructions/techniques.html For some reason I find I'm more accurate using "support".
From your list, I would pick the LaRue. The scar doesn't use popular mags which is no go for shtf, and the other is heavy as you say. You might also consider the M&P10, as its cheaper and a lot easier to get than the LaRue. Then again DPMS has the new G2 rifles which are likely to change the AR10 field just as the gen1 DPMS did. I think there are already G2 free float rails, but I haven't checked if they offer keymod yet. I chose to go with mlok personally.
I'm with TrackMagic as far as building an LR-308 setup, and leaning heavily on what Rainier Arms stocks to at least figure out approximate final cost. I'd also use taking an S&W M&P10 and adding parts to it as the benchmark for performance for cost, since that's already really close to a solid general use one and is compatible with most aftermarket parts that should make sense (i.e. upgraded furniture as needed, a handguard that works adequately, Geissele SSA/G2S or SSA-E/G2S-E, etc.).
For my part I'm waiting to see if any bigger manufacturers step into the game with an LR-308 type setup (Noveske, BCM, DD), otherwise I'll just start with an Aero Precision Receiver set, stuff it with DPMS G1 type parts, run a custom barrel and MI SS-KeyMod handguard, MagPul/KAC furniture and sights, run AXTS/BCM/BAD ambi parts and call it good.
From your list, I would pick the LaRue. The scar doesn't use popular mags which is no go for shtf, and the other is heavy as you say. You might also consider the M&P10, as its cheaper and a lot easier to get than the LaRue. Then again DPMS has the new G2 rifles which are likely to change the AR10 field just as the gen1 DPMS did. I think there are already G2 free float rails, but I haven't checked if they offer keymod yet. I chose to go with mlok personally.
The larue is the closest to what I want, thought it is the most expensive with a crazy wait time.
The m&p is a compelling value but it is 18 inch vs my preferred 16 inches and would take quite a bit of work to get it where I want it. By the time I drop in a keymod rail, trigger, new grip, stock, etc... I am probably close to 2k. If I am gonna spend that much, may as well save a little more and go with a higher end 308 from the get go or build it.
I'm with TrackMagic as far as building an LR-308 setup, and leaning heavily on what Rainier Arms stocks to at least figure out approximate final cost. I'd also use taking an S&W M&P10 and adding parts to it as the benchmark for performance for cost, since that's already really close to a solid general use one and is compatible with most aftermarket parts that should make sense (i.e. upgraded furniture as needed, a handguard that works adequately, Geissele SSA/G2S or SSA-E/G2S-E, etc.).
For my part I'm waiting to see if any bigger manufacturers step into the game with an LR-308 type setup (Noveske, BCM, DD), otherwise I'll just start with an Aero Precision Receiver set, stuff it with DPMS G1 type parts, run a custom barrel and MI SS-KeyMod handguard, MagPul/KAC furniture and sights, run AXTS/BCM/BAD ambi parts and call it good.
Let's says hypothetically I decided to build, I would certainly need some guidance on building a lightweight battle ready 308 that was following the loose 308 standard kac/DPMS gen1(assuming I did not screw up that is the basic platform...might have butchered it and shown my ignorance). From another thread I read, I could do this:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3459 For barrel
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3479. Mega upper/lower with keymod rail
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2270 BCG
Could I then go with:
http://tradingplacepawn.com/shop-online/by-brand/geissele/geissele-super-semi-automatic-ssa-trigger.html Trigger
For sights I assume magpul MBUS pro are solid. Running those on my 6920 and very happy with them.
That brings my cost to about 1750
And what about a stock? My preference would be magpul STR or something close to it. Not sure if STR would fit and if I would need mil spec or commerical spec?
What else am I missing and what are suggested quality parts for grip, receiver extension, gas block tube, misc. lower parts, etc....?
From what little I know of rifles the most important parts are barrel, BCG, and trigger. I do not want to skimp on those.
Let's says hypothetically I decided to build, I would certainly need some guidance on building a lightweight battle ready 308 that was following the loose 308 standard kac/DPMS gen1(assuming I did not screw up that is the basic platform...might have butchered it and shown my ignorance). From another thread I read, I could do this:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3459 For barrel
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3479. Mega upper/lower with keymod rail
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2270 BCG
Could I then go with:
http://tradingplacepawn.com/shop-online/by-brand/geissele/geissele-super-semi-automatic-ssa-trigger.html Trigger
For sights I assume magpul MBUS pro are solid. Running those on my 6920 and very happy with them.
That brings my cost to about 1750
And what about a stock? My preference would be magpul STR or something close to it. Not sure if STR would fit and if I would need mil spec or commerical spec?
What else am I missing and what are suggested quality parts for grip, receiver extension, gas block tube, misc. lower parts, etc....?
From what little I know of rifles the most important parts are barrel, BCG, and trigger. I do not want to skimp on those.
You might be able to cut back on the weight some more by going with an LR308 pattern receiver set and the Fortis Switch or MI SSK rail.
For the buffer system go with a VLTOR A5 receiver extension (6 or 7 position depending on the stock you get), milspec diameter stock, AR-10 action spring, and AR-15 H3 buffer.
The gas block and gas tube are the same as AR-15 parts. The LPK you get will need to be LR308 compatible (enlarged bolt catch and larger mag release).
EMOD stock is really undervalued as far as durable, heavy, effective units go, and they come for really cheap with an A5 setup - I'd certainly give that a try. Defeats some of the lightweight overall, but can help with balance. Otherwise, I'd just procrastinate and buy a used one - with the new BCM unit coming out, tons of people on this board are about to 'discover' they no longer want an otherwise perfectly good buttstock.
Limited experience with the LMT and none with the LaRue, but I love my SCAR 17S. Owned it for over three years, and it's a better weapon than I have the skill or money to truly take advantage of. Accurate, reliable, light weight, with very little recoil, and the smoothest operating system I've ever seen. The trigger may not be the best, but it's not nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. The biggest handicap the SCAR had was magazines, but the shortage of 17S/H mags seems to be over, and they're easy to find on Midway or Brownells.
The biggest handicap the SCAR had was magazines, but the shortage of 17S/H mags seems to be over, and they're easy to find on Midway or Brownells.
For my part, the worry is the WHY behind the S17 magazines being really available - it's hard not to assume that FNH-USA isn't selling as many of the complete weapons as they were hoping to. The aftermarket isn't exactly throwing magazines at it, and things like the Mossberg MVP that also use the SR25/MWS/LR308 magwell ones are becoming fairly standard.
For my part, the worry is the WHY behind the S17 magazines being really available - it's hard not to assume that FNH-USA isn't selling as many of the complete weapons as they were hoping to. The aftermarket isn't exactly throwing magazines at it, and things like the Mossberg MVP that also use the SR25/MWS/LR308 magwell ones are becoming fairly standard.
The "why" is pretty simple, production finally caught up with demand. The early, American made mags had problems, and the story goes that most got sent back when they didn't meet FN's standards. Coupled with reports of people getting some of these early, American made mags, and them not working or being rusty, this story makes sense. Once the first batches of good mags started reaching people in mid '12, the mag shortage pretty much came to an end. All of the ones I've purchased have been fine.
As for SR25 mags, there are more than a few aftermarket lowers for the SCAR designed to accept them. I've just never seen the reason. SCAR H mags work fine, and I actually like the little not-MagPul base pad on the mags.
I am going to follow this thread closely, it is relevant and similar to my decision making right now.
I recently purchased a stripped Aero Precision lower (figured I might as well get the critical and "ban-able") part and I am taking my time researching which upper to go with.
I noticed that Ares Armor has a good deal running currently on their 308 upper (pre-buy for around $800), but I am not in a rush and want to get the most bang for my buck. Of course one of the greatest advantages of the AR system is it's modularity so I can see myself having a few uppers that share a lower.
PatrioticDisorder
10-08-14, 13:39
For my part, the worry is the WHY behind the S17 magazines being really available - it's hard not to assume that FNH-USA isn't selling as many of the complete weapons as they were hoping to. The aftermarket isn't exactly throwing magazines at it, and things like the Mossberg MVP that also use the SR25/MWS/LR308 magwell ones are becoming fairly standard.
Like Alpha said, .mil required a lot of mags once FN caught up civvie market had a chance to eat. SCAR 17s still sells very well for a .308 and even if future lack of mags worried you, there are options for aftermarket lowers which is NOT the registered part of the rifle. FN will continue to back the SCAR platform for a long time to come, even if SOCOM ditched it, that would have little to no impact on the civilian side. FN is one of the oldest weapons manufacturers on the planet with plenty of government contracts (US and foreign) including many other countries running the SCAR (even poor African countries). FN also has a solid history of backing all their guns with not only warranty but parts availability. Bottom line if they support FS2000 & PS90 why would you be worried about the SCAR not being supported? I am amused by all the SCAR hatred.
OP keep in mind, any decent .308 will cost a minimum of $2,500... But then you have to factor in cost of purchasing mags, quality ammo which is pricey, good glass, suppressor, spare parts, other various accessories... Cost of the gun itself is only a fraction of the cost of ownership...:
OP, you might have expected a bias against the SCAR 17 on the "M4Carbine" forum. But, I believe the SCAR 17 is the best all around .308 rifle of this type out there. Yes, there are other fine rifles, but the SCAR is light, accurate, easy to shoot, and robust. I like it so much I have two now. Add a Geissele Super SCAR trigger and you have a very accurate weapon. I'm not a pro like a lot of the amazing folks on this forum, and I'm not even a great shot, but I can put 7 out of ten shots in a less that one MOA hole at 100 yards with just a bipod on the bench with American Eagle M1A ammo (not expensive).
The recoil impulse is excellent for a .308 and if you carefully choose your optics the rifle can be very light. Starts at less than 8 pounds. The magazines are not an issue and there have been some aftermarket attempts to make mags, but just buy the factory ones. This is also very modern piston driven design not a piston driven adaptation of a DI rifle. The rifle has been well vetted and is very reliable. Sales of the 17 seem to have been very good for an expensive rifle, it is still hard to find a SCAR 17 FDE rifles sometimes.
Limited experience with the LMT and none with the LaRue, but I love my SCAR 17S. Owned it for over three years, and it's a better weapon than I have the skill or money to truly take advantage of. Accurate, reliable, light weight, with very little recoil, and the smoothest operating system I've ever seen. The trigger may not be the best, but it's not nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. The biggest handicap the SCAR had was magazines, but the shortage of 17S/H mags seems to be over, and they're easy to find on Midway or Brownells.
I completely agree.
For my part, the worry is the WHY behind the S17 magazines being really available - it's hard not to assume that FNH-USA isn't selling as many of the complete weapons as they were hoping to. The aftermarket isn't exactly throwing magazines at it, and things like the Mossberg MVP that also use the SR25/MWS/LR308 magwell ones are becoming fairly standard.
I think it makes little sense to compare a cheap consumer rifle like the Mossberg MVP to a really fine rifle like the SCAR 17. They are different markets. Besides, SCAR 17 mags are now readily available. As are all kinds of accessories. Why would companies spend large amounts of money to develop SCAR lowers that take Magpul mags if FN wasn't selling very many rifles?
I'm partial to the LMT MWS. it's competitively priced, has exceptional quality, and uses sr25 magazines. want a short barrel? want a different caliber altogether? swap barrel in 10 seconds. I love the quad rail, but the slick side will save a bit of weight.
Like Alpha said, .mil required a lot of mags once FN caught up civvie market had a chance to eat. SCAR 17s still sells very well for a .308 and even if future lack of mags worried you, there are options for aftermarket lowers which is NOT the registered part of the rifle. FN will continue to back the SCAR platform for a long time to come, even if SOCOM ditched it, that would have little to no impact on the civilian side. FN is one of the oldest weapons manufacturers on the planet with plenty of government contracts (US and foreign) including many other countries running the SCAR (even poor African countries). FN also has a solid history of backing all their guns with not only warranty but parts availability. Bottom line if they support FS2000 & PS90 why would you be worried about the SCAR not being supported? I am amused by all the SCAR hatred.
Far from disliking it - just pointing out the reasons to my why the Scar17 magazine isn't going to be a standard which new weapon systems adopt. The SCAR really had the ability to be a dominant player if it wound up with some more barrel diversity, and aftermarket versions of parts; but for short, light, reliable, accurate .308's it's still basically untouchable. Because it's still a single source weapon (with some cool aftermarket stuff like triggers and extended handguards having come along), there's isn't a budget version, so it's competing directly with the LMT offering that seems to have a lot of the same features going for it, but without as much seeming future-proofing since the 5.56/300blk conversions haven't caught on. I'm not saying magazine production being caught up with demand has been bad, just that sales may not have met long term goals since a lot of people are holding back on joining the .308 market, and lots of other players have moved into the market space of 2-3k rifles.
The MVP comparison has little to do with rifles that actually compete for really usable semiautomatic 308's; just illustrates that the SR25 type magazines are seeing adoption well beyond LR308s, and may continue to do so which will probably solidify at least the magwell portion of the 308 the market converges on. The LMT has the same barrel change party trick, but there are actually 6.5CM and really varied length barrels actually readily available.
I don't know why you need to change the barrel in ten seconds, but the SCAR barrel is held by 6 accessible screws and barrels can be changed in less than 5 minutes. I believe there is a short barrel available for the SCAR. And of course you could have one cut.
I don't buy rifles because I like their magazines.
There are a lot of very positive reviews on the SCAR out there as well.
I don't know why you need to change the barrel in ten seconds, but the SCAR barrel is held by 6 accessible screws and barrels can be changed in less than 5 minutes. I believe there is a short barrel available for the SCAR. And of course you could have one cut.
I don't buy rifles because I like their magazines.
There are a lot of very positive reviews on the SCAR out there as well.
My point was that it's easy.
"Liking" a magazine is not a factor, availability and price are.
I love the SCAR H, but I'd still get the MWS first.
Sent from the 9th annual International Player Haters' Ball
Briman1001
10-09-14, 13:36
Following this as I am also researching my first .308 purchase. How does the LMT at around $2,300 compare to a Scar 17 at $2,500 or even a HK MR762A1 at $2,999?
In what way? What do you intend to use it for? You can look up the specs, but you need to decide what the primary purpose is for the rifle. I like the SCAR for an all around rifle. It does quite a few things well, but if I wanted a rifle just for long range shooting I might pick a different rifle.
There are also a lot of reviews of these rifles out there.
My point was that it's easy.
"Liking" a magazine is not a factor, availability and price are.
I love the SCAR H, but I'd still get the MWS first.
Sent from the 9th annual International Player Haters' Ball
I intended to be a little provocative, but did not intend to offend.
I don't get the need for a super fast barrel change. I think someone called it a "party trick", personally It seems like a nice idea, but am I going to keep a short barrel and sniper barrel and then change the optics to go with it? No, but then I'm not an operator and if I was I'd have two rifles instead of changing out barrels.
As far as mags are concerned, I can see wanting to share mags with another rifle you may have, but buying a single rifle I wouldn't care. Mags in .308 are a small part of the cost too. 25 rounds of .308 cost more than a magazine so big deal .308 is expensive to shoot.
I like all of the rifles considered here, I just think that the SCAR has a bit of an advantage for what I want to use it for. It is a good all around rifle. So we have different views, no big deal.
PatrioticDisorder
10-09-14, 14:41
Far from disliking it - just pointing out the reasons to my why the Scar17 magazine isn't going to be a standard which new weapon systems adopt. The SCAR really had the ability to be a dominant player if it wound up with some more barrel diversity, and aftermarket versions of parts; but for short, light, reliable, accurate .308's it's still basically untouchable. Because it's still a single source weapon (with some cool aftermarket stuff like triggers and extended handguards having come along), there's isn't a budget version, so it's competing directly with the LMT offering that seems to have a lot of the same features going for it, but without as much seeming future-proofing since the 5.56/300blk conversions haven't caught on. I'm not saying magazine production being caught up with demand has been bad, just that sales may not have met long term goals since a lot of people are holding back on joining the .308 market, and lots of other players have moved into the market space of 2-3k rifles.
The MVP comparison has little to do with rifles that actually compete for really usable semiautomatic 308's; just illustrates that the SR25 type magazines are seeing adoption well beyond LR308s, and may continue to do so which will probably solidify at least the magwell portion of the 308 the market converges on. The LMT has the same barrel change party trick, but there are actually 6.5CM and really varied length barrels actually readily available.
I don't think many .308s sell well compared to 5.56 guns in general, cost of ownership in the .308 market is enormous compared to 5.56 which isn't cheap and .308 is a luxury for many of us, not really a need, but allow me to make a couple of points. I still don't think you have to worry about support for the SCAR platform and I still think it sells well compared to other .308s.
1. SCAR mags work great in the gun, I actually prefer these over Pmags for the SCAR but will be buying the Stryker SEAL after market lower that utilizes scar mags for it's added strength. The Handl lower has people covered well who want to use pmags.
2. LMT is a nice rifle in it's own right and I'm generally a big LMT fan but it is not without it's minuses as well. No adjustable gas block and some guys reporting issues shooting suppressed with the MWS kinda turned me off to it a little, but otherwise I agree it's a nice option for those who prefer AR ergos and manipulation if the KAC ECC/ACC is too pricey.
3. There may be many other .308 offerings from 2-3k, but the only other id consider is the MWS.
Mags in .308 are a small part of the cost too. 25 rounds of .308 cost more than a magazine so big deal .308 is expensive to shoot.
An amusing but utterly accurate point - running the mags one-time-use with Federal GMM only ups the cost of each trigger pull by a percentage.
It's more of a case that I think some more of the market will pick up - obviously not to 5.56 AR platform adoption levels, but the first really solid offering that isn't competing directly with existing platforms that have been adopted by worldwide militaries (SCAR-H, LMT MWS) in that 2.5-2.8k price range, but offers something clearly better than the $1500-$1800 stuff that runs, but lacks the refinement of something most people are wanting when looking at something that's going to set them back a buck or more with each trigger pull (blasting berms at 50ft doesn't require a .308, but doing things where the .308 cartridge excels tends to require at least a somewhat precise barrel and the pricier ammunition... why not run a gun that feels like it's making performance from that setup).
The MWS has some added possibilities that an adjustable gas block can be ran on that really well (since the removable barrel means the adjustable block doesn't have to be super-accessible), which gets more use out of the barrel changing capability. It's basically the standard to compare everything else against in the price range most people looking to pick up a .308 setup (myself included) are looking at, the only reason I'm looking at building an LR308 instead of buying a slick-sided MWS is that within the narrow capability set I intend to use mine for, I think I can build something lighter that is comparable on performance. I don't consider the SCAR to be the comparison standard because it's a different animal in many ways - it's light compared to the precision setups, heavy compared to the simplistic setups, and the cost is only offset by the awesome added features like the folding stock if those actually get used.
I'm really close to the OP with regard to what I was looking at, I did wind up with a PredatOBR 7.62, but sold it with zero rounds down the pipe because it was very expensive for what I wanted to do with it, and swapping out the small parts to what I really wanted to run would have been a significant added cost (swapping trigger, furniture, charging handle). I think we're at the point where there might be an obvious good answer (in the same way that between the BCM KMR equipped uppers, KAC SR-15 Mod1/2, DD V5/V11, and Noveske GenIII offerings the high performance portion of the 5.56AR market is spoiled for excellent choices)... the SCAR is unlikely to be that answer, for reasons that go well beyond my simply pointing out differences in control layout and magwell; the MWS is likely to be a large part of that 'good answer', but if something a bit less modular (i.e. just 16" free floated standard handguard on the same lower from LMT even) could be done cheaper and run really well, then we're looking at a winner. The floating wildcard is whether the LR308 (DPMS Gen1) spec is the one that gets condensed to or not, it seems CMMG, PSA, AeroPrecision, and others are convinced that's the case, but there are still outliers like the RRA, DPMS G2, and POF that still manage to get market share despite looking like technological dead ends to me.
Spare parts come from where?
Spare mags come from where and cost how much?
At some point building 2 PSA "AR-10"s for the cost of one SR 7.62 yields spare platforms and x2 weapons in the fight. If it is compared to the SCAR I can build 3 - with my cheapo PSA doing 95% of what the gold plated SCAR does, I guess I am not seeing a need for that last 5% of precision/capability. I have better access to spare parts and PMAG are everywhere.
Two is one, and one is none.
YMMV
USMA84DAB
Well I am probably more torn than ever on what to do. I think I have eliminated the SCAR but am giving consideration to LMT, Larue, or building. Build would be a good learning experience but expensive if I screw it up.
JoeStrummer
10-09-14, 21:04
Limited experience with the LMT and none with the LaRue, but I love my SCAR 17S. Owned it for over three years, and it's a better weapon than I have the skill or money to truly take advantage of. Accurate, reliable, light weight, with very little recoil, and the smoothest operating system I've ever seen. The trigger may not be the best, but it's not nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. The biggest handicap the SCAR had was magazines, but the shortage of 17S/H mags seems to be over, and they're easy to find on Midway or Brownells.
What he said, add a Geisselle and your cooking with gasoline
I went through this buying process a few weeks ago. Primary use is to replace a Noveske 5.56 and Browning A-bolt 308 for spot n' stalk hog hunting on the ground in the thick palmetto groves here in central FL. It will also be used for deer and general plinking.
I thought about building, as I just helped a buddy build his AR-10 to replace his bolt gun for the same purpose, but sourcing the exact parts I wanted was shaping up to be a PITA, so I decided to research factory rifles.
Larue variants - I didn't want to wait years for a rifle, so I quickly stopped considering them.
KAC - I live close to those guys, have shot with a few of them at carbine competitions, but at 5k, I just can't justify the price.
SCAR 17s - Clearly the lightest, but that's about all I cared for. I wasn't a fan of the stock or the trigger. I felt like it needed a rail extension, and then there's the proprietary mags. I know the trigger can be replaced, but that adds cost. A rail extension can be added, but again that adds cost and weight and now I'm messing with it's greatest attribute. I just personally prefer the AR platform, so I was looking for reasons not to buy a SCAR, which told me the rifle isn't for me.
I read good things about P308's and REPR's, but I'm a DI guy at heart.
I ended up buying an LMT MWS. Currently, I'm not interested in the caliber swapping ability of the MWS, so I put no value in that. Accuracy reports with a wide range of bullet weights in factory ammo are excellent, and since I don't reload simply due to time, this was important. The two stage trigger isn't exactly a Geissele, but it can be worked with for sure. Plus, I have an SSA I can drop in if need be. $17 Gen3 Pmags, check.
From the mounds of reading I did, the only recurring gripe on the MWS is weight. A few people had over gassing issues when shooting suppressed, but a heavier buffer has been found to be the cure. The listed weight also includes the LMT BUIS, and since hog hunting is a one way range, I won't be needing BUIS's, so those came off. Overall, the MWS is about a pound heavier than other comparable AR-10 variants, some more, some less, but I figured I'd just leave my purse at home and deal with it. With a Trijicon TR24 in an LT SPR-E mount, a few rail panels/LT index clips, TD QD stubby, and empty mag it's 11.7 pounds of pure pig medicine.
The MWS is also the cheapest of all the others I considered, added bonus. For me, the positives far outweighed the negatives, no pun intended.
It's really just personal preference.
What about the Colt LE/SP-901 ? Have you considered it ? Not as heavy as the LMT and it uses PMAGS.
What about the Colt LE/SP-901 ? Have you considered it ? Not as heavy as the LMT and it uses PMAGS.
For that kind of money I would want more. Best price I see on the colt is 2k.
I am actually doing research now and looking at building one. For about 2k I can get a bad ass rifle that has exactly what I want. I may just go that route.
Limited experience with the LMT and none with the LaRue, but I love my SCAR 17S. Owned it for over three years, and it's a better weapon than I have the skill or money to truly take advantage of. Accurate, reliable, light weight, with very little recoil, and the smoothest operating system I've ever seen. The trigger may not be the best, but it's not nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. The biggest handicap the SCAR had was magazines, but the shortage of 17S/H mags seems to be over, and they're easy to find on Midway or Brownells.
I agree...I don't get all the hate on the SCAR17S trigger. The thing is manufactured as a "battle rifle" not a super light triggered sniper rifle. I think it's great for what it is and it's very accurate. You mentioned length...one other to consider maybe is the 14.5" barreled POF .308 rifle. Same price range and very accurate. There are a few PD SWAT teams that are using the 14.5" model as their sniper rifle. A little lighter than the SCAR17...I think. Bottom line, I think you'd probably be very happy with either the LaRue, a SCAR or whatever. I don't know or read about many rifles these days that are lousy. I think most if not all manufacturers have gotten the bugs worked out of the AR-10 type model.
Well since none of the original 3 I was considering quite seemed to match what I wanted, I have committed to building. Figure it will be a good learning experience as well since I've never built one. I just ordered the Mega arms MATEN Keymod extended set. I found a great deal here: http://www.capitolarmory.com/mega-arms-mkm-maten-keymod-upper-lower-set.html
$655 for the extended rifle set seemed like a no brainer given the reviews I have seen on it.
I'm still debating barrel, as I admit I have no clue what to look for, other than I want 16 inch and reasonably light weight. This was brought up in another thread:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3459
I am leaning towards SSA-E trigger: http://tradingplacepawn.com/shop-online/by-brand/geissele/geissele-super-semi-automatic-enhanced-ssa-e.html
Here's a LPK minus the trigger. I can't find a LPK minus the grip, as I would prefer a different grip: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/308-lower-parts-kit-sku231000250-27207-53387.aspx
There is no official mil-spec BCG. I was told about this one but no idea if it is a quality piece: http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=291
I suppose I could pay out the yin-yang for an LMT BCG, but not sure it is worth the $$: http://www.lmtstore.com/bolts-carriers-groups/bolts-carriers-and-groups-complete/lm308d.html
This BCG is in the mid-range: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1413131451/dpms-bolt-carrier-assembly-lr-308-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Zero clue here on if price difference on those BCGs means anything. Not exactly like buying from BCM, Colt, or DD, where you can buy it and know it is good.
Now that I've committed to building, feel free to chime in with thoughts. I'm a noob and this is my first build. I'll pay a little extra to make this a nice rifle. My goal is to build it for less than I'd spend on an LMT MWS and wind up with a better rifle, or at least better to me!
The MWS has some added possibilities that an adjustable gas block can be ran on that really well (since the removable barrel means the adjustable block doesn't have to be super-accessible), which gets more use out of the barrel changing capability.
Except the MWS has a proprietary barrel extension and some crazy method of attaching the gas block that basically cannot be undone.
This means it's basically impossible to retrofit an LMT barrel with a new gas block and you can't take an off the shelf .308 AR barrel and use it with an MWS.
Some people used to custom machine LMT barrel extensions, no idea who does it anymore though.
Except the MWS has a proprietary barrel extension and some crazy method of attaching the gas block that basically cannot be undone.
This means it's basically impossible to retrofit an LMT barrel with a new gas block and you can't take an off the shelf .308 AR barrel and use it with an MWS.
Some people used to custom machine LMT barrel extensions, no idea who does it anymore though.
Marvin Pitts (Nefarious Arms) does LMT conversions. Service/price is listed on his 2014 service list.
The so-called "fix" is to replace the buffer spring, sell the 16" barrel and replace with an 18 or 20" barrel and have it cut to 16-17" depending on suppressor. The mod provides rifle(ish) length gas system instead of carbine(ish).
I swap barrels between a 13.5" with KAC mams pinned and a 17.25" and optics depending on what I'm doing. No problem with the 13.5" with carbine gas system and the KAC 762 QDC CQB suppressor.
http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a578/hjmpanzr/515b2f2757d10fea917597c8757eca36_zpsbe18db63.jpg
PatrioticDisorder
10-12-14, 19:42
Marvin Pitts (Nefarious Arms) does LMT conversions. Service/price is listed on his 2014 service list.
The so-called "fix" is to replace the buffer spring, sell the 16" barrel and replace with an 18 or 20" barrel and have it cut to 16-17" depending on suppressor. The mod provides rifle(ish) length gas system instead of carbine(ish).
I swap barrels between a 13.5" with KAC mams pinned and a 17.25" and optics depending on what I'm doing. No problem with the 13.5" with carbine gas system and the KAC 762 QDC CQB suppressor.
http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a578/hjmpanzr/515b2f2757d10fea917597c8757eca36_zpsbe18db63.jpg
The problem with doing all that... You're now close to SR-25 money...
The problem with doing all that... You're now close to SR-25 money...
Only if you're adding the cost of the surefire and KAC Suppressors (assuming you're referring to an ECC).
PatrioticDisorder
10-12-14, 21:27
Only if you're adding the cost of the surefire and KAC Suppressors (assuming you're referring to an ECC).
ECC being a thing of the past I think a better comparison would be to the upcoming ACC.
The Colt 901 is compatible with standard AR uppers, and occasionally available for under $2000. I would get that if iwas getting a .308 auto.
I just bought this:
http://www.capitolarmory.com/mega-arms-mkm-maten-keymod-upper-lower-set.html
I am now committed to building one. None of what I saw is exactly what I want. I want one very nice 308 and building gives me a chance to no compromise. It should also be a great learning experience.
The high end options of Laure, LMT, SCAR, SR-25 are all excellent. But I don't want to spend that kind of $$ and have to change the rail, stock, etc... to get it the way I want. In doing the research I can spend less than any of those cost and get a 308 just like I want it.
english kanigit
10-13-14, 15:43
I've been following this thread with great interest as I am currently trying to answer the same question. I regularly do 'Run&Gun' competitions, a bit of hog hunting and I wouldn't mind having something around with a bit more horsepower behind it than 5.56. It would really be nice to not have to just look at the targets at 600, 700 and further during some of the matches and then just move along because my equipment can't do it. What I'm after is essentially a 'heavy carbine' that is perfectly at home in the 0-500 range but capable of hits on man-sized targets to 800 should the need arise. My priorities in decreasing order of importance are reliability, weight and accuracy. Further points such as suppressor optimization (I have a SF 762SOCOM-MINI that I will want to use.), minimal proprietary parts and track record are also important. For the gun I'm trying to stay at or below $3k which pretty much rules out LaRue and KAC...
The options I've been considering are thus:
SCAR 17 - Awesome gun. Light weight, known developmental track record with incremental improvements. I really dig the folding stock as I travel a lot and I've found this feature supremely useful on my AKs. Also, the gas system being designed for use when suppressed is a definite positive. Mag cost is irrelevant to me. One problem that I see is that if I had one I would want to chop it down to the 'CQC' variant... after that I'm not sure if it's really capable of doing what I would want out of a .308. I've had trigger time on a buddy's both suppressed and unsuppressed. It was very favorable to me.
LMT MWS - I've been taking a hard look at this one, especially the slick version. The down side to me is that it's a heavy bastard. By all accounts these guns are superbly well made and accurate but I don't know how suitable it would be to schlep one over 10ks of hills and roads or up steel towers and over CONEX containers especially with a can on it.
COLT LE-901 - I've wanted one of these terribly since they first came out. I actually got to shoot one of the first ones that hit a dealer's shelf and liked it quite a lot. The price is down to $2k now which is reasonable. The whole "5.56 upper compatibility" thing is meaningless to me. I'm trying to find if there's something a bit more streamlined though...
DIY MegaBlaster 9000 - I like doing things myself but I have only the most basic knowledge pertaining to .308s ARs. If Noveske still made a 7.62 switchblock this would be a no-brainer for me.
Adams Arms .308 - Somebody who is pretty locked in about these things and operates a lot of training strongly suggested that I look into this option. It's finally listed on the AA website, sorta, so now I guess that it's a contender. Unfortunately they don't yet have a lot of details out on it.
Ek
PatrioticDisorder
10-13-14, 16:23
Pp
I've been following this thread with great interest as I am currently trying to answer the same question. I regularly do 'Run&Gun' competitions, a bit of hog hunting and I wouldn't mind having something around with a bit more horsepower behind it than 5.56. It would really be nice to not have to just look at the targets at 600, 700 and further during some of the matches and then just move along because my equipment can't do it. What I'm after is essentially a 'heavy carbine' that is perfectly at home in the 0-500 range but capable of hits on man-sized targets to 800 should the need arise. My priorities in decreasing order of importance are reliability, weight and accuracy. Further points such as suppressor optimization (I have a SF 762SOCOM-MINI that I will want to use.), minimal proprietary parts and track record are also important. For the gun I'm trying to stay at or below $3k which pretty much rules out LaRue and KAC...
The options I've been considering are thus:
SCAR 17 - Awesome gun. Light weight, known developmental track record with incremental improvements. I really dig the folding stock as I travel a lot and I've found this feature supremely useful on my AKs. Also, the gas system being designed for use when suppressed is a definite positive. Mag cost is irrelevant to me. One problem that I see is that if I had one I would want to chop it down to the 'CQC' variant... after that I'm not sure if it's really capable of doing what I would want out of a .308. I've had trigger time on a buddy's both suppressed and unsuppressed. It was very favorable to me.
LMT MWS - I've been taking a hard look at this one, especially the slick version. The down side to me is that it's a heavy bastard. By all accounts these guns are superbly well made and accurate but I don't know how suitable it would be to schlep one over 10ks of hills and roads or up steel towers and over CONEX containers especially with a can on it.
COLT LE-901 - I've wanted one of these terribly since they first came out. I actually got to shoot one of the first ones that hit a dealer's shelf and liked it quite a lot. The price is down to $2k now which is reasonable. The whole "5.56 upper compatibility" thing is meaningless to me. I'm trying to find if there's something a bit more streamlined though...
DIY MegaBlaster 9000 - I like doing things myself but I have only the most basic knowledge pertaining to .308s ARs. If Noveske still made a 7.62 switchblock this would be a no-brainer for me.
Adams Arms .308 - Somebody who is pretty locked in about these things and operates a lot of training strongly suggested that I look into this option. It's finally listed on the AA website, sorta, so now I guess that it's a contender. Unfortunately they don't yet have a lot of details out on it.
Ek
I've crunched the numbers and you can make 155gr AMAX work with a Mk6 CMR-W or VCOG with a 13" CQC barrel for the SCAR 17s out to 500 yards (even 600 yards is close), the trajectory can get very close with the right zero. Frag range should be 350+ yards with 155gr AMAX out of 13" CQC barrel, good enough for my needs.
168gr AMAX out of 16" standard barrel will fly damn close to the trajectory out to 1,000 yards but goes transonic between 950-1000 yards.
Will_Power
10-13-14, 21:55
As long as we're talking about 7.62 NATO dreams, here's something that has interested me, but I don't know if it's feasible.
I liked the setup of my FAL. A lot. But that tilting bolt and 3 MOA accuracy on a good day is frustrating.
Are there companies that sell - as standalone components for builders - a gas piston setup and a non-reciprocating charging handle upper (without a standard rear charging handle) for KAC/DPMS pattern .308 ARs?
I'm certain the answer to my question is simply, "Dude, go buy a SCAR," but if I wanted to go the AR route, is that possible?
PatrioticDisorder
10-13-14, 22:31
As long as we're talking about 7.62 NATO dreams, here's something that has interested me, but I don't know if it's feasible.
I liked the setup of my FAL. A lot. But that tilting bolt and 3 MOA accuracy on a good day is frustrating.
Are there companies that sell - as standalone components for builders - a gas piston setup and a non-reciprocating charging handle upper (without a standard rear charging handle) for KAC/DPMS pattern .308 ARs?
I'm certain the answer to my question is simply, "Dude, go buy a SCAR," but if I wanted to go the AR route, is that possible?
As far as I know LWRC & PWS sell "piston" (non DI) .308 uppers... But I have no clue what lowers they are compatible with (outside of factory LWRC & PWS lowers).
I noticed that nobody has mentioned the Armalite AR-10 yet.
I recently picked up an AR-10A. This version takes PMags and similar pattern mags.
Mine is a chrome-lined 16", but it also comes in chrome-lined 20", as well as stainless 16" and 20".
Thus far (60 rounds), everything is functioning well. Tried out Gen3 PMags,, feeds fine, bolt locks back when mag empty. PMC Bronze (South Korean) and Sellier and Bellot (Czech) .308 + my woefully unskilled self shooting off a backpack give me about 3" at 100 meters. A more skilled shooter + some more consistent ammo would probably result in smaller groups.
Just throwing it out there. Will do some more extensive testing and report back.
Will_Power
10-14-14, 16:50
As far as I know LWRC & PWS sell "piston" (non DI) .308 uppers... But I have no clue what lowers they are compatible with (outside of factory LWRC & PWS lowers).
PWS wasn't even on my radar. Thanks. I'll go check them.
I've had my eye on the LWRC REPRs, but even their complete uppers are so damn expensive that it equals the cost of almost an entire SCAR 17. Maybe they are worth it? I don't know yet. Still in the early research stages of this little project...
english kanigit
10-14-14, 17:17
Pp
I've crunched the numbers and you can make 155gr AMAX work with a Mk6 CMR-W or VCOG with a 13" CQC barrel for the SCAR 17s out to 500 yards (even 600 yards is close), the trajectory can get very close with the right zero. Frag range should be 350+ yards with 155gr AMAX out of 13" CQC barrel, good enough for my needs.
168gr AMAX out of 16" standard barrel will fly damn close to the trajectory out to 1,000 yards but goes transonic between 950-1000 yards.
That's some very interesting info. When you say 'close to the trajectory' are your referring to the BDC in those optics you listed?
Ek
That's some very interesting info. When you say 'close to the trajectory' are your referring to the BDC in those optics you listed?
Ek
I'm trying to run the numbers myself, but yes, the POI on the 155gr from those MV's is almost within the margin of error of the ammo grouping vertically out to 500... my numbers are probably crap beyond that, but that's pretty good for a BDC.
PatrioticDisorder
10-14-14, 18:07
That's some very interesting info. When you say 'close to the trajectory' are your referring to the BDC in those optics you listed?
Ek
Yes, let's take 155gr AMAX reported (on M4C by another member 2-3 years ago) to chrono at 2424fps (not sure what the Std Dev Is) out of the 13" CQC barrel... Height over bore is 3.5" (SCAR is quirky like that), BC is listed at .435. I plug my numbers for south Florida and use 50 feet above sea level (proally more like 20-30 but close enough), 75 degrees and 70% humidity.
I plug all that in on the Shooter's calculator with a 75 yard zero you're damn close like within couple inches out to 500 yards then you are maybe 3-4 inches low (still damn good IMO). This is all on paper of course, I haven't been able to confirm this (yet).
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?pl=%5BPreset+Name%5D&presets=&df=G1&bc=0.435&bw=155&vi=2424&zr=75&sh=3.5&sa=0&ws=10&wa=90&cfa=on&alt=50&tmp=75&bar=29.92&hum=70&ssb=on&cr=1000&ss=25&chartColumns=Range%7Eyd%3BElevation%7Ein%3BElevation%7EMOA%7EFBFFF5%3BElevation%7EMIL%3BWindage%7Ein%3BWindage%7EMOA%7EFBFFF5%3BWindage%7EMIL%3BTime%7Es%3BEnergy%7Eft.lbf%3BVel%5Bx%2By%5D%7Eft%2Fs&lbl=&submitst=+Create+Chart+
All you have to do is Google Leupold CMR-W 7.62 reticle and find an image that gives the BDC in mils to verify for yourself how close you are. Like I said 168gr is dead on at all distances out to 1,000 yards. You could get a VCOG to work decent as well, albeit the Mk6 BDC will be a little closer and easier to use.
... and up at 6000ft low humidity (still a lot higher density altitude) it holds a touch better (yeah, mountain goat stuff means some ballistics play dumb games). Still, for a BDC reticle (where you're realistically probably estimating UKD at distance more than KD without dialing in) that's fantastically close, and outside of really skill shooters that's a smaller amount of being off than a meh wind call.
SCAR 17 - Awesome gun. Light weight, known developmental track record with incremental improvements. I really dig the folding stock as I travel a lot and I've found this feature supremely useful on my AKs. Also, the gas system being designed for use when suppressed is a definite positive. Mag cost is irrelevant to me. One problem that I see is that if I had one I would want to chop it down to the 'CQC' variant... after that I'm not sure if it's really capable of doing what I would want out of a .308. I've had trigger time on a buddy's both suppressed and unsuppressed. It was very favorable to me.
If you would want the barrel cut down, why not just get an extra barrel? FN makes/sells 13" spare barrels. Very pricey, yes, but gives you the option of running the gun as a compact SBR carbine, then with the longer barrel, the ability to really reach out and touch something. I'm thinking of doing something similar with my 16S right now. (like the longer barrel on the 17S).
https://www.armsunlimited.com/FNH-SCAR-17-S-13-Inch-Barrel-Assembly-p/98814.htm
PatrioticDisorder
10-14-14, 18:25
... and up at 6000ft low humidity (still a lot higher density altitude) it holds a touch better (yeah, mountain goat stuff means some ballistics play dumb games). Still, for a BDC reticle (where you're realistically probably estimating UKD at distance more than KD without dialing in) that's fantastically close, and outside of really skill shooters that's a smaller amount of being off than a meh wind call.
I agree, more than good enough for any application I have for it.
If I was going to pony up 308 money....
I would get a 14.5" larue PredatOBR with pinned Surfire SOCOM MB and full sized SF can
After adding sights it's still 800$ or so cheaper than the compatible KAC. I like 14.5 because it will save you something when running the full sized can. I also like the port selector feature.
If I wanted to spend last then that I kind of like the PWS MK216 mod 1. But the scar 17 and LMT LM8 MWS are most likely safer bets for that type of $. Unless it was purly for range/hunting I just don't reall love and semi 308 for less than that, but I also admit I am snobbish.
PatrioticDisorder
10-15-14, 06:10
If I was going to pony up 308 money....
I would get a 14.5" larue PredatOBR with pinned Surfire SOCOM MB and full sized SF can
After adding sights it's still 800$ or so cheaper than the compatible KAC. I like 14.5 because it will save you something when running the full sized can. I also like the port selector feature.
If I wanted to spend last then that I kind of like the PWS MK216 mod 1. But the scar 17 and LMT LM8 MWS are most likely safer bets for that type of $. Unless it was purly for range/hunting I just don't reall love and semi 308 for less than that, but I also admit I am snobbish.
As much as I like Surefire cans, the full size 762 RC is HUGE, too long for my taste. I went with a Saker 762 mainly for that reason. With a muzzle brake on a 14.5 or 13, the Surefire Mini wouldn't be so bad.
2905529056
Just arrived. I think I'm going to be very happy when this build is finished
2905529056
Just arrived. I think I'm going to be very happy when this build is finished
Oh, very nice! What barrel are you going to be putting on that thing?
Oh, very nice! What barrel are you going to be putting on that thing?
Thanks. I'm still debating the barrel and BCG. I've considered this barrel as I've heard good things about it for the price:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3459
I would also consider the mega in that price range. Pretty sure I will stick with 16 inch barrel as there is minimal difference in velocity from an 18 inch and I expect almost all my shooting to be inside 300 yards. Any others I should consider?
Anyone have thoughts on a BCG for this setup? I know aero precision has one, and JP has a long list of them here that are supposed to be nice, though I have no clue which one to get: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.7_bc.php
Not exactly like a 5.56 where you can buy a Colt, BCM, or DD BCG and call it a day.
Thanks. I'm still debating the barrel and BCG. I've considered this barrel as I've heard good things about it for the price:
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3459
I would also consider the mega in that price range. Pretty sure I will stick with 16 inch barrel as there is minimal difference in velocity from an 18 inch and I expect almost all my shooting to be inside 300 yards. Any others I should consider?
Anyone have thoughts on a BCG for this setup? I know aero precision has one, and JP has a long list of them here that are supposed to be nice, though I have no clue which one to get: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.7_bc.php
Not exactly like a 5.56 where you can buy a Colt, BCM, or DD BCG and call it a day.
Aero Precision is also making a .308 barrel. Haven't heard any fedback yet on those, but their AR-15 receivers and barrels are good. All 3 of my AR's are built on Aero lowers and 1 upper. Lots of people around here use them oo, hopefully somebody can provide feedback on their .308 receivers and barrels.
Aero Precision is also making a .308 barrel. Haven't heard any fedback yet on those, but their AR-15 receivers and barrels are good. All 3 of my AR's are built on Aero lowers and 1 upper. Lots of people around here use them oo, hopefully somebody can provide feedback on their .308 receivers and barrels.
I'm more interested in Aero's BCG. It is the best priced of any I have seen, I but I have no idea if the quality is there. Looks decent in the picture but that doesn't mean a whole lot.
http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=175
What BCG are most of you guys using?
Anyone have thoughts on a BCG for this setup? I know aero precision has one, and JP has a long list of them here that are supposed to be nice, though I have no clue which one to get: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.7_bc.php
Not exactly like a 5.56 where you can buy a Colt, BCM, or DD BCG and call it a day.
Given the critical nature of the BCG in a DI gun, I'd go with the LMT, because LMT is a known manufacturer of high quality BCGs. The BCG of a DI gun is a good place to spend your money.
If you would want the barrel cut down, why not just get an extra barrel? FN makes/sells 13" spare barrels. Very pricey, yes, but gives you the option of running the gun as a compact SBR carbine, then with the longer barrel, the ability to really reach out and touch something. I'm thinking of doing something similar with my 16S right now. (like the longer barrel on the 17S).
https://www.armsunlimited.com/FNH-SCAR-17-S-13-Inch-Barrel-Assembly-p/98814.htm
I would like to fit one of my 17s with a 13", but I live in a Commie state where they don't allow SBRs at all. When I move in four years, I'll put a 13" and a maybe a can on one rifle.
Before I bought the SCARs I looked at every thing I could find. I though about building a rifle like the OP, but frankly the parts interchangeability and selection in 308 just didn't give me the confidence that I could build what I wanted and have it work. So it looked to me, at the time, that buying a complete rifle made more sense. I don't know if that has changed, but I am very happy having gone with FN. Maybe someday I'll try something else, but for now I'm happy. The SCAR exceeds my ability to reach it's limits, but that isn't probably saying much.
Oh, and the only tool I had to purchase for the SCAR is a 62 inch/pound torque wrench.
Does the LMT 308 BCG follow the DPMS or armalite pattern? I am close to ordering a barrel and I will obviously need to know that.
Does the LMT 308 BCG follow the DPMS or armalite pattern? I am close to ordering a barrel and I will obviously need to know that.
I am interested to hear about this too. I have never seen an LMT .308 bolt in anything but an LMT, and have a suspicion that it is somewhat proprietary, but I could be wrong.
If you would want the barrel cut down, why not just get an extra barrel? FN makes/sells 13" spare barrels. Very pricey, yes, but gives you the option of running the gun as a compact SBR carbine, then with the longer barrel, the ability to really reach out and touch something. I'm thinking of doing something similar with my 16S right now. (like the longer barrel on the 17S).
https://www.armsunlimited.com/FNH-SCAR-17-S-13-Inch-Barrel-Assembly-p/98814.htm
Yikes, that's a pricey barrel. A 13" .308 is gonna be mighty loud and concussive. On the bright side, if you don't hit what you're shooting at, the shock wave will.
I am interested to hear about this too. I have never seen an LMT .308 bolt in anything but an LMT, and have a suspicion that it is somewhat proprietary, but I could be wrong.
This is why I didn't build my own .308. OP: You'll need to check with the folks you bought the upper from about what 308 BCGs work and with what barrels/extensions. And you should either have the upper assembled for you or get yourself a set of headspace gauges. There may be some threads on this forum that can help you as well. Or maybe someone will have the answers. These are a little trickier to build than a 5.56 AR.
EDIT: Sorry I misunderstood, you'll have to decide the barrel and bolt combo. I thought the LMT BCG conformed to one of the two (DPMS or Armalite), but it does not as far as I can tell.
One thing of interest, Noveske went with the Armalite standard. If I were you I'd contact Rainier Arms and find out what your options are. AND I would buy both the BCG and Barrel from the same shop so maybe they can help you with headspace.
Maybe some else can help you more than I, because I haven't done a 308 build and I don't want to steer you wrong (since I already did).
I was looking to build a rifle myself as well but have stumbled across an m&p10 hunting version with the crowned bull barrel. Has a 15" troy alpha and a ctr stock added already as well. I plan on having a local builder thread the bull barrel for me and install a brake. I am not sure if I want to cut it back to 16 or leave it at 18. Will also add a ssa trigger soon too. My plan is 0-500 yards as my primary "do anything" rifle.
Mega set looks nice. Whatever barrel you linked to didn't come up when I clicked the link but I really liked the rainier select barrels with the 5r rifling. Seem like a good value. Most rainier barrels have the option of armalite or dpms pattern extensions so that makes it easier to match the bcg you decide to use.
I would wait till after SHOT 2015 to see what new .308 semi auto rifles might be coming out. Who knows, maybe will see a BCM AR .308 in different configurations.
BUOPtimus Prime
11-22-14, 20:56
I do wish I at least waited to buy my receiver set until after Shot Show.
OP chiming back in. I just picked up my 308 today. Mega Maten matching upper/lower receivers with SSA-E and rainier arms match 308 barrel. I will post pics and a complete parts list n the next few days or so. Very happy and can't wait to shoot it.
OP chiming back in. I just picked up my 308 today. Mega Maten matching upper/lower receivers with SSA-E and rainier arms match 308 barrel. I will post pics and a complete parts list n the next few days or so. Very happy and can't wait to shoot it.
As I am sure you know ammo has came down quite a bit, so stock up as much as possible and enjoy it.
As I am sure you know ammo has came down quite a bit, so stock up as much as possible and enjoy it.
Just ordered Federal Gold Medal Ammo, .308 Win, 168-gr., SMK BTHP. I am well stocked on 9mm and 5.56. This is THE time to buy right now.
Also buying my first SBR. I caught the bug.....
hotrodder636
11-23-14, 09:05
OP chiming back in. I just picked up my 308 today. Mega Maten matching upper/lower receivers with SSA-E and rainier arms match 308 barrel. I will post pics and a complete parts list n the next few days or so. Very happy and can't wait to shoot it.
Very interested as I am delving into to big bore AR right now too. Thanks!
Mega has a recommended parts source list for critical components.
You can use either an ArmaLite Inc. or DPMS BCG, but need to make sure the barrel extension is set up for the bolt geometry. They were the same as of 2010, but I think the market has varied in dims. due to no shared data package.
Bolt lug length, face depth, and barrel extension timing with the chamber will determine headspace. Gas guns need some slop anyway, so there can be forgiving dims, but I personally would not approach an AR10 with an after market parts solution when it comes to barrels. I personally have always gone custom, with someone that knows what they are doing with AR10's.
We have seen issues where some DPMS Bolts were headspaced too short or long, and where some JP bolts either solved or created failure to headspace, so all these barrels being cranked out are not indexed the same, or to an acceptable level of tolerance.
Looking to go cheap with AR10's will often result in failure to function at all, and accuracy is hit and miss. You have to pay to get it done right for sure, or gamble with the parts market and see where the dice land.
OP circling back on the final build. Here is the complete parts list I went with:
1 - MEGA ARMS MKM MATEN Keymod Upper / Lower Set - http://www.capitolarmory.com/mega-arms-mkm-maten-keymod-upper-lower-set.html I got this on sale for $720 including tax and shipping. And that was the extended rifle length set which is 14 inches. Also included 9 slot rail and charging handle.
2 - H3 Buffer and castle nut through Damage Industries - $40 including shipping and tax during Halloween sale
3 - Geissele Super Semi-Automatic Enhanced (SSA-E) - on sale for $194 through Trading Place Pawn. Price included shipping and no tax.
4 - DPMS LPK minus FCG - http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/308-lower-parts-kit-minus-fire-control-components-sku231000334-27207-111705.aspx $50
5 - A5 receiver extension - http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/buffer-tube-parts/buffer-tubes/a5-receiver-extension-sku100010797-55056-111100.aspx $47.50
6 - STR stock - http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/buttstocks/str-mil-spec-stock-black-sku100009321-45226-102656.aspx $76
7 - Noveske QD end plate - http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/tactical-sling-mounts/qd-receiver-end-plate-sku100004756-31766-57871.aspx $27
8 - Magpul MIAD 1.1 grip - http://grabagun.com/magpul-mag520-blk-miad-gen-1-1-grip.html $28
9 - BCM Low Profile Gas Block (steel with set screws) 750 - $45
10 - BCM mid length gas tube - $13
11 - Larue Tactical A2 flash hider for 308 - $20
12 - Aero Precision 308 complete BCG(follows DPMS pattern) http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=175 - $195
13 - Rainier Arms 308 Match 16 inch Barrel DPMS pattern- https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-matchtm-308-barrel-21 - $315
FYI if you buy a barrel from Rainier, you don't have to buy the BCG through them to get free headspacing. Call and they'll tell you how to add this to your order
14 - AR 10 buffer spring - $10
That got me to right at $1,750 for the base setup I want for way less than the LMT, Larue, or FN. I could have gone much cheaper in a few areas to keep the cost down such as going with Aero Precision receiver set, use the trigger and grip that comes with the DPMS LPK, Rainier Select barrel instead of Match barrel, etc... That would have probably saved several hundred bucks, but I would not have been as happy. My pictures don't do it justice. This is a great looking setup and I'm excited to go break it in soon.
I will likely do a few other things, such as Raptor, BCM, or Mecharmor TacOps1 charging handle (would be interested to hear you opinions on which is better), a good light never hurts, etc.... But I have the foundation I want and I'm quite certain I'll save money vs. the LMT, Larue, or FN routes.
BUOPtimus Prime
11-23-14, 14:11
Looks good. Thanks for sharing.
Has anyone confirmed or denied that the LMT LM308D complete bolt carrier group is compatible with DPMS/SR25 pattern receivers and barrels???
http://www.lmtstore.com/bolts-carriers-groups/bolts-carriers-and-groups-complete/lm308d.html
Has anyone confirmed or denied that the LMT LM308D complete bolt carrier group is compatible with DPMS/SR25 pattern receivers and barrels???
http://www.lmtstore.com/bolts-carriers-groups/bolts-carriers-and-groups-complete/lm308d.html
I called LMT a while back and the rep I spoke with said he thought they followed the sr25 pattern. He said he would call me back with an answer, but he never did.
superstratjunky
12-03-14, 19:04
OP circling back on the final build. Here is the complete parts list I went with:
1 - MEGA ARMS MKM MATEN Keymod Upper / Lower Set - http://www.capitolarmory.com/mega-arms-mkm-maten-keymod-upper-lower-set.html I got this on sale for $720 including tax and shipping. And that was the extended rifle length set which is 14 inches. Also included 9 slot rail and charging handle.
2 - H3 Buffer and castle nut through Damage Industries - $40 including shipping and tax during Halloween sale
3 - Geissele Super Semi-Automatic Enhanced (SSA-E) - on sale for $194 through Trading Place Pawn. Price included shipping and no tax.
4 - DPMS LPK minus FCG - http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/308-lower-parts-kit-minus-fire-control-components-sku231000334-27207-111705.aspx $50
5 - A5 receiver extension - http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/buffer-tube-parts/buffer-tubes/a5-receiver-extension-sku100010797-55056-111100.aspx $47.50
6 - STR stock - http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/buttstocks/str-mil-spec-stock-black-sku100009321-45226-102656.aspx $76
7 - Noveske QD end plate - http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/slings-sling-swivels/tactical-sling-mounts/qd-receiver-end-plate-sku100004756-31766-57871.aspx $27
8 - Magpul MIAD 1.1 grip - http://grabagun.com/magpul-mag520-blk-miad-gen-1-1-grip.html $28
9 - BCM Low Profile Gas Block (steel with set screws) 750 - $45
10 - BCM mid length gas tube - $13
11 - Larue Tactical A2 flash hider for 308 - $20
12 - Aero Precision 308 complete BCG(follows DPMS pattern) http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=175 - $195
13 - Rainier Arms 308 Match 16 inch Barrel DPMS pattern- https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-matchtm-308-barrel-21 - $315
FYI if you buy a barrel from Rainier, you don't have to buy the BCG through them to get free headspacing. Call and they'll tell you how to add this to your order
14 - AR 10 buffer spring - $10
That got me to right at $1,750 for the base setup I want for way less than the LMT, Larue, or FN. I could have gone much cheaper in a few area to keep the cost down such as going with Aero Precision receiver set, use the trigger and grip that comes with the DPMS LPK, Rainier Select barrel instead of Match barrel, etc... That would have probably saved several hundred bucks, but I would not have been as happy. My pictures don't do it justice. This is a great looking setup and I'm excited to go break it in soon.
I will likely do a few other things, such as Raptor, BCM, or Mecharmor TacOps1 charging handle (would be interested to hear you opinions on which is better), a good light never hurts, etc.... But I have the foundation I want and I'm quite certain I'll save money vs. the LMT, Larue, or FN routes.
Weight? Still a whole lot cheaper than a SCAR 17!
Weight? Still a whole lot cheaper than a SCAR 17!
I actually lack a working scale right now. I am sure it is a little heavier than the Larue but definitely should be lighter than the LMT. And it is significantly cheaper than a SCAR, LMT, or Larue. Building sure seems the way to go on a 308.
Let us know how it does.
I have taken it to the range twice and it shoots fantastic using Magpul MBUS pro sights! I'm still debating if I want a red dot or scope for it. Very happy I chose to build. Significantly cheaper than buying the SCAR, LMT, or Larue and I did not have to compromise. While I'm sure those are all fine 308s, it is surprising more people don't build given the economic advantages.
my build is not too different and I mounted a vortex 2.5x10 PST in a larue mount with their ring modification to mount a red dot which filled with a fastfire ii
Rifle with optic is 9.8 pounds.
Accuracy?
Roughly silver dollar sized group at 50 yards with just MBUS pro sights. That's the best I've ever shot. Keep in mind I'm a noob.
I have taken it to the range twice and it shoots fantastic using Magpul MBUS pro sights! I'm still debating if I want a red dot or scope for it. Very happy I chose to build. Significantly cheaper than buying the SCAR, LMT, or Larue and I did not have to compromise. While I'm sure those are all fine 308s, it is surprising more people don't build given the economic advantages.
Nice rifle, if you decide to go with a reasonably priced scope, the Zeiss Conquest series is one to check out.
PatrioticDisorder
01-12-15, 23:26
Apparently DD is releasing the Mk762, so DD has thrown it's hat into the .308 debate.
Apparently DD is releasing the Mk762, so DD has thrown it's hat into the .308 debate.
any idea on the price?
PatrioticDisorder
01-13-15, 05:17
any idea on the price?
Not yet, DD seems to be tight lipped about it, the gun appeared in some 2015 AR-15 book and someone posted a couple pics of the magazine article on it on another forum. The only thing I noticed, it appeared to have a right sided boot release, Keymod rail and reportedly weighs 8.5lbs. The rest would be pure speculation; but I'm sure it will be something DD unveils next week at SHOT officially...
When you get to 1000rds, let us know how it has held up. That's the first bare bones mile marker to make any half-decent impression on one of these.
Briman1001
08-14-15, 08:16
The July-Aug 2015 Recoil magazine has a "review" or hands on with the new DD .308 rifle. They list $2,700 MSRP.
The July-Aug 2015 Recoil magazine has a "review" or hands on with the new DD .308 rifle. They list $2,700 MSRP.
And that price point is why I chose to build. No doubt the DD will be a fine rifle, but piecing one together is much chepaer and a great learning experience.
The July-Aug 2015 Recoil magazine has a "review" or hands on with the new DD .308 rifle. They list $2,700 MSRP.
I love my DD stuff, but that ticks the DD308 off the list. At that price, I'll just wait on the MLOK flavor of LMT MWS, and be done with it. I'll be able to get a practically matching Ruger RPR, and still be money ahead of where I'd have probably wound up trying to build my own relatively light precision setup (and just run 6.5CM for more reach)
PatrioticDisorder
08-14-15, 19:53
I love my DD stuff, but that ticks the DD308 off the list. At that price, I'll just wait on the MLOK flavor of LMT MWS, and be done with it. I'll be able to get a practically matching Ruger RPR, and still be money ahead of where I'd have probably wound up trying to build my own relatively light precision setup (and just run 6.5CM for more reach)
Judging by the percentage off MSRP the DD 5.56s could be had for, I'd expect street price to be $2,000-2,100 eventually. Do you think that is over priced if DD gets this rifle right?
Judging by the percentage off MSRP the DD 5.56s could be had for, I'd expect street price to be $2,000-2,100 eventually. Do you think that is over priced if DD gets this rifle right?
I would guess street price is closer to $2300. Even at that price, cheaper to build by several hundred dollars and you can get a better trigger and customize the way you want.
Products keep getting better and more budget friendly for building.
If anywhere close in street price I'd rather have an MWS in mlock.
(No slight to DD, I'm a fan)
I'm not as keen in DD's direction of late with their built rifles due to their rail and stock choices.
PatrioticDisorder
08-15-15, 08:55
I would guess street price is closer to $2300. Even at that price, cheaper to build by several hundred dollars and you can get a better trigger and customize the way you want.
Maybe at first but once vendors are sitting on stock they will move closer to the $2,000-2,100 I think, again just basing this off DD's history with their 5.56 guns MSRP and seeing what you can actually pick one up for. SCAR 17s MSRP is something like $3,350 and they can be had for $2,600 (actually like $2,550 on recent check).
And that price point is why I chose to build. No doubt the DD will be a fine rifle, but piecing one together is much chepaer and a great learning experience.
DD is actually testing their guns in high volume, to ensure that a working product is available to the consumer.
After you get done finding parts that will actually fit together with the DIY route, you then have the uphill battle of chasing reliability, let alone accuracy. I've seen several people who tried to build a $1200 gun end up having to return their BCG's for being faulty, barrels for having a tight chamber below the SAAMI minimum, LPK major components that didn't fit or broke, shave receivers so BCH change handles could work, deal with headspace issues, only to find out after an additional $800 of expenditure, that the primers are not well-supported, cratering and piercing is normal, and the guns still don't run.
Not counting time to the range and back, range fees or ammo, wear and tear on parts that many places will only replace rather than full refund, and we're well over $2000.
I think DD's approach is to take care of all that headache in advance with their engineering, testing, QC/QA, and CS departments so the customer has a working solution out of the box. I'm no DD fanboy, and I think I own only one DD product that I don't really like, but this is just how I see this, having watched this AR10 market for decades now.
I think you nailed it when you said people tried to build a $1200 308 AR gun. You're not going to get quality at that price. I got high quality parts and followed sage advice from people who have built a 308 before and so far, zero issues for me. Plus I got exactly what I wanted to get in in the rail, trigger, stock, etc.... None of the 308s made by FN, LMT, or Larue were pieced togther the way I wanted. I was under 2k excluding glass and got a match barrel, SSA-E trigger, keymod rail, etc... I'd hate to drop big money on an AR only to realize I wanted a different trigger, rail or grip after I got to shoot it.
hotrodder636
08-19-15, 11:57
I disagree with some of what you said below. I used an Aero receiver set, a Rainier UM barrel, Geiselle trigger, MI FF keymod rail, Syrac gas block (I have listed my parts before) for $1200. It shoots sub-MOA and has had no issues with over 500 rounds of 175gr GMM and M118Match ammo. It can be done...if you have a quality parts list AND you are able to find everything on sale except the gas tube and pivot/takedown pins. Maybe I got lucky but I think not.
I think you nailed it when you said people tried to build a $1200 308 AR gun. You're not going to get quality at that price. I got high quality parts and followed sage advice from people who have built a 308 before and so far, zero issues for me. Plus I got exactly what I wanted to get in in the rail, trigger, stock, etc.... None of the 308s made by FN, LMT, or Larue were pieced togther the way I wanted. I was under 2k excluding glass and got a match barrel, SSA-E trigger, keymod rail, etc... I'd hate to drop big money on an AR only to realize I wanted a different trigger, rail or grip after I got to shoot it.
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