Instructors on the record about rifle selection

[alvincullumyork]

I'm looking for instructors going on the record recommending specific brands of rifles. I'll post instructors with links to their recommendations at the top.


The only one I can find easily is Larry Vickers but I would like to see a variety of names like Rob Pincus, Travis Haley, James Yeager, or Pat McNamara or really anyone else. I understand some instructor will endorse only the brand they are sponsored by or work for but that is not always the case (ala LAV) and I think it would be interesting to see where they all fall.

Edit: What I want specifically is;

1. Instructor
2. Link to them stating that brand x makes a good rifle
3. Link to them stating that brand x makes a bad rifle
4. Link to brand x that sponsors them or carries there signature rifle

Notes
1. A (s) by the company name means that the instructor is sponsored by or has a rifle with that company

2. None of BCM "Gunfighters" Are paid by BCM. For a complete explanation of the relationship see this link. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159174-Instructors-on-the-record-about-rifle-selection&p=2004004#post2004004

Steve Fischer - Sionics
Link - https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159174-Instructors-on-the-record-about-rifle-selection&p=2003846#post2003846

Jason Falla - KAC
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KMpo7Xyffk

Jeff Gonzales - LWRC
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK9Szn0xqWE

Kyle Lamb - S&W
Link - http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_802551_-1_787653_757785_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Cris Costa - Larue, Warsport, KAC
Link - http://www.laruetactical.com/costa-edition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDqv...?v=UDqvckkFRT0
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/04/21...icate-partner/
http://www.knightarmco.com/knights/gallery/

Clint Smith - Noveske
Link - http://www.shopnoveske.com/products/thunder-ranch-rifle

Larry Vickers - Daniel Defense(s), BCM(s), Colt
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mKD-CmX4zQ

James Yeager - Spikes Tactical, Daniel Defense, Barrett
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe3qor3zOGk&feature=youtu.be

Pat Rogers - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Travis Haley - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

John Chapman - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Pat McNamara - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Mike Pannone - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Kyle Defoor - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Tom Spooner - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

JD Potynsky - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Ken Hackathorn - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Frank Proctor - BCM (s), Troy (s), Windham (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php
http://troydefense.com/portfolio/proctor-carbine/
https://www.windhamweaponry.com/newsletters/06202014.asp

Kyle Lamb - Troy (s)
http://troydefense.com/portfolio/sgm-lamb-carbine/

Paul Howe - Wilson Combat (s), DPMS (s)
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDS-QEtPUdt
http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/guns-and-weapons/dpms-csat-perimeter-and-tactical-rifles/

[NCGREENSWAMP13]

I think I remember seeing a Yeager video were he said that he liked spikes. I'll try to find the link. Doesn't Travis Haley back BCM? Jack carbine and all.





My Favorite AR-15s: http://youtu.be/Oe3qor3zOGk

[friendlyfireisnt]

Seems the majority are using BCM, there are a few exceptions.

Haley, Rogers, McNamera, Vickers, etc are using them, and have been for awhile. Frank Proctor has his signature rifle through Troy, IIRC.

No idea about Yeager, nor do I really care what he uses or endorses, as his opinion means virtually nothing to me.

[ryantx23]

I'm looking for instructors going on the record recommending specific brands of rifles. I'll post instructors with links to their recommendations at the top.

The only one I can find easily is Larry Vickers but I would like to see a variety of names like Rob Pincus, Travis Haley, James Yeager, or Pat McNamara or really anyone else. I understand some instructor will endorse only the brand they are sponsored by or work for but that is not always the case (ala LAV) and I think it would be interesting to see where they all fall.

Larry Vickers - Daniel Defense, BCM, Colt
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mKD-CmX4zQ

Are you serious? To include Yeager in the same sentence with instructors like Pat McNamara, Travis Haley and LAV is jacked up. There is a subforum here that includes real deal gunfighters and Yeager isn't one of them. But since you asked, LAV will recommend DD, BCM and Colt. Haley is a BCM guy, Frank Proctor is another BCM guy as well and so is Mac if I am not mistaken. Jason Falla is an HK guy (At least he was back in 2007 when I shot with him at Blackwater). There are many other HSLD shooters who run BCM rifles. http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

[WickedWillis]

Haley has been backing BCM, as has Vickers from what I have seen.

[NCGREENSWAMP13]

Please inform me of your endorsement on the AR platform and your combat record.

•No "combat record".
•Limited AR experience

However I had the unfortunate experience or being the victim of a home invasion by 2 armed men. So I know what its like to be fired at. But I do apologize for the comment about Mr. Yeager. I wasn't there so I have no right to criticize.

[WickedWillis]

•No "combat record".
•Limited AR experience

However I had the unfortunate experience or being the victim of a home invasion by 2 armed men. So I know what its like to be fired at. But I do apologize for the comment about Mr. Yeager. I wasn't there so I have no right to criticize.

Seems like I came off a bit heavy handed. I apologize. I personally have no combat experience, but I would never be able to know how I would react in a fire fight.

[NCGREENSWAMP13]

Seems like I came off a bit heavy handed. I apologize.

Its ok, sometimes my mouth/keyboard goes faster than my brain.

[ghostsup]

Frank Proctor, one that wasn't mentioned but I feel deserves some recognition uses BCM and an Aimpoint T1.

[friendlyfireisnt]

Frank Proctor, one that wasn't mentioned but I feel deserves some recognition uses BCM and an Aimpoint T1.

Yet his signature rifle that he has recently been promoting is a Troy Industries IIRC.

One of these days, I want to go to one of his classes.

[ghostsup]

Yet his signature rifle that he has recently been promoting is a Troy Industries IIRC.

One of these days, I want to go to one of his classes.

Very interesting! I wasn't aware of that and sure enough, went to Troy's site and there it is... The Proctor Carbine! A rather ugly butt stock I must say.

[friendlyfireisnt]

Very interesting! I wasn't aware of that and sure enough, went to Troy's site and there it is... The Proctor Carbine! A rather ugly butt stock I must say.

Yeah, it was on YouTube recently as well. I know he also seems to like BCM, he has talked about them as well.

I was surprised that he is pushing Troy, but since they make his sling, it kinda makes sense.

[lawusmc0844]

Wasn't that tool Pincus PTing with Daniel Defense rifles two years ago?

[alvincullumyork]

I guess I'll add signature rifles as well. Please provide links.

I put Pincus and Yeager in there because what they recommend could be just as telling as what Vickers or McNamara recommend just in a different way. I wouldn't be surprised if the first two endorsed Olympic Arms and Bushmaster.

[ST911]

Off-topic and incendiary content removed. This could be an interesting thread if it stays on track.

[alvincullumyork]

I think recommendations to avoid would be even better if you can find them.


Off-topic and incendiary content removed. This could be an interesting thread if it stays on track.

Thank you.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[EricTheRed]

11 out of 12 have BCM as a favorite/endorsed rifle? That's telling, especially with the sheer number of manufacturers out there, and the fact that there are several high quality manufacturers at that. Makes me even happier that my go to rifle is a BCM.

[alvincullumyork]

11 out of 12 have BCM as a favorite/endorsed rifle? That's telling, especially with the sheer number of manufacturers out there, and the fact that there are several high quality manufacturers at that. Makes me even happier that my go to rifle is a BCM.

That's just who they are sponsored by, I will separate sponsored versus endorsed later. Plus it was easy to grab those 11 as BCM has them listed on there site, This is list is just beginning. Not saying BCM doesn't make a great rifle or that these gentlemen would sell there name to a brand (that isn't up to snuff) for a price, but it is still a sponsorship. The only two who I've seen, so far, endorse companies they weren't sponsored by is Larry Vickers and Yeager. Mr. Vickers endorsement of Colt is very telling to me because as far as I know he has no financial ties to them. That to me gives even more credibility to his recommendations for BCM and DD.

[LtNovakUSA]

Paul Howe uses a Wilson Combat rifle

http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDS-QEtPUdt

[alvincullumyork]

Paul Howe uses a Wilson Combat rifle

http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDS-QEtPUdt

Thanks and got it.

[dramabeats]

Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch endorses Noveske.

http://www.shopnoveske.com/products/thunder-ranch-rifle


and Chris Costa endorses Larue

http://www.laruetactical.com/costa-edition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDqvckkFRT0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDqvckkFRT0

[EricTheRed]

That's just who they are sponsored by, I will separate sponsored versus endorsed later. Plus it was easy to grab those 11 as BCM has them listed on there site, This is list is just beginning. Not saying BCM doesn't make a great rifle or that these gentlemen would sell there name to a brand (that isn't up to snuff) for a price, but it is still a sponsorship. The only two who I've seen, so far, endorse companies they weren't sponsored by is Larry Vickers and Yeager. Mr. Vickers endorsement of Colt is very telling to me because as far as I know he has no financial ties to them. That to me gives even more credibility to his recommendations for BCM and DD.

Good points.

[NCGREENSWAMP13]

I wonder if any of these big named instructors have "go-to" rifles that the names on the mag-well are different than the name on the endorsement check?

[cd228]

Kyle Lamb of VTAC has a S&W VTAC II rifle.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_802551_-1_787653_757785_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
There is a video of his discussing the rifle in the enclosed link.

[Iraqgunz]

Doesn't Chris also endorse War Sport? It's surely a War Sport on his Facebook page. Not to mention pics I have seen of him shooting it.


Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch endorses Noveske.

http://www.shopnoveske.com/products/thunder-ranch-rifle


and Chris Costa endorses Larue

http://www.laruetactical.com/costa-edition

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDqvckkFRT0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDqvckkFRT0

[dramabeats]

Doesn't Chris also endorse War Sport? It's surely a War Sport on his Facebook page. Not to mention pics I have seen of him shooting it.

Looks to be the case, he uses it in his "Easy Day" video and discusses their rifle with James Yeager below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU7XWFFTEO8

He also has a short bio on their website

https://www.warsport-us.com/costaludus.html

He announced that they're "syndicate Partners" here

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/04/21/costa-ludus-announces-war-sport-industries-as-new-syndicate-partner/

[foxtrotx1]

Edit to stay on topic.

[dramabeats]

Before assembling a list like this, it's probably good to know that yeager knows shit about anything gun related.

Debatable, this is not the place to start a Yeager or Costa war though.

[Rob96]

Paul Howe uses a Wilson Combat rifle

http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDS-QEtPUdt


If I remember correctly from his website, prior to WC he used/endorsed DPMS.

[WS6]

Are you serious? To include Yeager in the same sentence with instructors like Pat McNamara, Travis Haley and LAV is jacked up. There is a subforum here that includes real deal gunfighters and Yeager isn't one of them. But since you asked, LAV will recommend DD, BCM and Colt. Haley is a BCM guy, Frank Proctor is another BCM guy as well and so is Mac if I am not mistaken. Jason Falla is an HK guy (At least he was back in 2007 when I shot with him at Blackwater). There are many other HSLD shooters who run BCM rifles. http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php


I disagree. Yeager has seen tons of lead go downrange, and his opinions on quality carbines that hold up to that are worth just as much as any of the other guys, IMO.

Now, his moral compass? His grasp of tactics? His choice of clothing? That's all up for debate as far as I'm concerned, but I do not feel anyone can logically argue that he has not seen which guns hold up to hard shooting and which don't.

The facts of the matter are that many of the names listed "like what they like" for monetary, political, or friendship reasons.

Take LAV for instance. He was 100% Daniel Defense when DD was paying him. Now, he is not. He will not recommend DD. He doesn't talk bad about them, but when he recommends guns, he doesn't list them.

Follow the dollar.

Personally, I question the validity of going with what an SME endorses as the end-all, be-all, considering all of the relationships in the industry that we DON'T see.

[mike240]

Much has been said about folks sponsored by makers and of course this in general will have an impact on what they recommend. I think it was Howe who used to keep a notebook on the range for his classes. Students were asked to log all stoppages and parts breakages, causes along with make and models.

Seeing such a book would render a lot of of unbiased information.

[ryantx23]

I disagree. Yeager has seen tons of lead go downrange, and his opinions on quality carbines that hold up to that are worth just as much as any of the other guys, IMO.

Now, his moral compass? His grasp of tactics? His choice of clothing? That's all up for debate as far as I'm concerned, but I do not feel anyone can logically argue that he has not seen which guns hold up to hard shooting and which don't.

The facts of the matter are that many of the names listed "like what they like" for monetary, political, or friendship reasons.

Take LAV for instance. He was 100% Daniel Defense when DD was paying him. Now, he is not. He will not recommend DD. He doesn't talk bad about them, but when he recommends guns, he doesn't list them.

Follow the dollar.

Personally, I question the validity of going with what an SME endorses as the end-all, be-all, considering all of the relationships in the industry that we DON'T see.

I think it takes more than just money to get a real deal to endorse a product. They aren't going to put their reputation out on the line for a piece of shit. At least that's my opinion, take it or leave it.

As far as Yeager goes, I stand by my comment. That guy hasn't a scintilla of the the experience that the other guys mentioned do. So he was a contractor in Iraq. Yes he did get himself and his team mates into an ambush and he folded up like a cheap Boy Scout knife during it. I'm not saying he's a pussy, he did go do a dangerous job in support of our troops but to lump him into the BTDT category is just wrong. Again, that's my opinion so take it or leave it.

I do agree with you on the validity of a SME portraying one product an "end all, be all" and I don't think I have seen anyone mentioned who infers that. Just because a lot of them endorse BCM, doesn't mean that's what they are saying. BCM does in fact make a hell of a rifle (I own multiple) and I wouldn't hesitate to take one into a fight. Then again, neither would I hesitate to take my DD, a Noveske, or my current duty issued Colt 6920 or one of my Sionics rifles. As long as they are built right using quality parts, I don't care what stamp is on the side of the lower.

As far as some of the original question and reason for this post goes, I know that Chris Kyle was a big fan of LWRC's REPR and Paul Howe even had a signature LWRC rifle too at one time if I am not mistaken.

[WS6]

I think it takes more than just money to get a real deal to endorse a product. They aren't going to put their reputation out on the line for a piece of shit. At least that's my opinion, take it or leave it.
No, but there is plenty of gear out there that's good. Once you get into Colt/DD/BCM/Etc. hanging your hat on one brand or the other just because "so and so" "prefers" it is meaningless.

As far as Yeager goes, I stand by my comment. That guy hasn't a scintilla of the the experience that the other guys mentioned do. So he was a contractor in Iraq. Yes he did get himself and his team mates into an ambush and he folded up like a cheap Boy Scout knife during it. Again, that's my opinion so take it or leave it. I do agree with you on the validity of a SME portraying one product an "end all, be all" and I don't think I have seen anyone mentioned who infers that. Just because a lot of them endorse BCM, doesn't mean that's what they are saying. BCM does in fact make a hell of a rifle (I own multiple) and I wouldn't hesitate to take one into a fight. Then again, neither would I hesitate to take my DDM4V5LW, or my current duty issued Colt 6920 or any of my Sionics rifles. As long as they are built right using quality parts, I don't care what stamp is on the side of the lower. I would wager that Yeager has personally seen A TON more lead go downrange stateside than anyone ever saw go downrange in Iraq/Afghanistan in an environment in which they could inspect/diagnose failures. Further, there is no variety in Iraq/Afghanistan. It's all (almost all) issued gear. It is what it is. So until we can buy FN M4 carbines, what's the point? I am not trying to say that Yeager even understands the M4 platform. However, he HAS SEEN a ton of rounds go downrange, and any idiot can draw a conclusion that's reasonably accurate about certain products from that. Show a toddler 2 toys, one red, and one blue, and the red one makes a noise they don't like, and the blue one makes a pleasant noise, and even a toddler will go for the blue one after a few times.

As far as some of the original question and reason for this post goes, I know that Chris Kyle was a big fan of LWRC's REPR and Paul Howe even had a signature LWRC rifle too at one time if I am not mistaken.
If you look back at the history of most SME's, you will find them endorsing most of the "big names" at some point or another. I just don't understand the topic. It's like asking "which cars has Randy Pobst enjoyed driving"? Well...everything from the ZR1 to the BRZ, pretty much. But he races an AWD Volvo that isn't street legal in his professional career, so...

[Koshinn]

Doesn't Chris also endorse War Sport? It's surely a War Sport on his Facebook page. Not to mention pics I have seen of him shooting it.

IIRC Chris is or was sponsored by KAC as well. Or if not, he certainly has and uses a lot of KAC rifles.

ETA:
http://www.knightarmco.com/knights/gallery/

Guess he's a sponsored instructor.

[03scgt]

Jason falla and redbackone endorse kac

[PatrioticDisorder]

IIRC Chris is or was sponsored by KAC as well. Or if not, he certainly has and uses a lot of KAC rifles.

ETA:
http://www.knightarmco.com/knights/gallery/

Guess he's a sponsored instructor.

I believe KAC has given him rifles, but I don't believe he's ever been outright paid by KAC. Funny how KAC doesn't really have anyone on the pay roll to endorse their products yet pretty much everyone will acknowledge their rifles are a rung above pretty much everyone. BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, LMT & LaRue all certainly make a decent product as well.... Yet take LMT for example, most of us would agree they make great rifles & parts, yet their marketing department SUCKS. On the flip side of that, just because Chris Costa goes and endorses war sports doesn't mean I'm going to go out and buy their goofy tacticool rifle. Thankfully we have resources like this forum where we can decipher the bullshit from what is legit.

[samuse]

I had an instructor from Tigerswan named Dave Borresen, he shot a JP and liked it.

[C4IGrant]

That's just who they are sponsored by, I will separate sponsored versus endorsed later. Plus it was easy to grab those 11 as BCM has them listed on there site, This is list is just beginning. Not saying BCM doesn't make a great rifle or that these gentlemen would sell there name to a brand (that isn't up to snuff) for a price, but it is still a sponsorship. The only two who I've seen, so far, endorse companies they weren't sponsored by is Larry Vickers and Yeager. Mr. Vickers endorsement of Colt is very telling to me because as far as I know he has no financial ties to them. That to me gives even more credibility to his recommendations for BCM and DD.


Endorsed and sponsored are the same animal when it comes to the guys under the BCM GunFighter name. If these guys thought your product was crap, they would NOT accept one for free or let you associate their name with your brand.

So that means they think BCM makes a fantastic product.


C4

[C4IGrant]

I disagree. Yeager has seen tons of lead go downrange, and his opinions on quality carbines that hold up to that are worth just as much as any of the other guys, IMO.

Ya, I would have to disagree with this. He does not hold a candle to the Tier 1 one guys under the BCM GF name (sorry).


Take LAV for instance. He was 100% Daniel Defense when DD was paying him. Now, he is not. He will not recommend DD. He doesn't talk bad about them, but when he recommends guns, he doesn't list them.

Follow the dollar.

Personally, I question the validity of going with what an SME endorses as the end-all, be-all, considering all of the relationships in the industry that we DON'T see.

When LAV worked for DD he would speak highly of BCM, Colt, etc. So not always about money.

Depends on who the SME's are. Since I personally know most all the guys that work for Alias Training, they wont use something they don't think is first rate and sure as hell won't let you use their name with your product. So yes, you can trust the products they endorse.



C4

[PD Sgt.]

I am pretty sure in some of his Panteo videos Paul Howe uses a pretty worn looking Larue, though I do not know or recall if he specifically endorsed or recommended it. Not too surprising if you consider they are both located in TX.

[WS6]

http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/guns-and-weapons/dpms-csat-perimeter-and-tactical-rifles/

[Doc Safari]

Endorsed and sponsored are the same animal when it comes to the guys under the BCM GunFighter name. If these guys thought your product was crap, they would NOT accept one for free or let you associate their name with your brand.

So that means they think BCM makes a fantastic product.


C4


This pretty much reflects my sentiments also. We're not talking about which light beer these guys prefer. We are talking about a product that amounts to life-and-death for certain professions. If these guys were to endorse a certain AR knowing that it's crap they could potentially lose all credibility as operators once the truth gets out.

Put another way...notice how none of them endorse DPMS. :D

[SpeedRacer]

Any instructor/SME worth a damn would not risk their credibility by endorsing a weapon that didn't work. Recieving free gear and/or a paycheck to help promote a brand is a non-issue and does not affect the validity of the endorsement IMO. Same with competition shooters, no amount of free stuff is going to make them use inferior guns/gear/ammo that could cost them a match.

All said and done, you're gonna see guys predictably recommending BCM, DD, KAC, etc. It's not a coincidence there's no DPMS, Bushmaster, and so on on the list. Bottom line is you're gonna see recommendations for weapons everyone here already knows are good choices so I think it's a mostly moot discussion. What I do find more interesting though is how SME's set their rifle up (optic, sling, light, etc) as their rigs are typically a culmination of a lot of experience and trial-and-error, so I like to see what they run and hear their reasoning behind it.

[WS6]

DPMS has indeed been recommended by some real meat eaters in the past. I contend that it's all about money. If the SME thinks that it will hurt them more than help due to association, they won't endorse it, because they would lose money. Otherwise, look at the money-trail. By money, I also mean "free stuff". If it goes *bang*, why NOT shoot out the free barrel?

[alvincullumyork]

Endorsed and sponsored are the same animal when it comes to the guys under the BCM GunFighter name. If these guys thought your product was crap, they would NOT accept one for free or let you associate their name with your brand.

So that means they think BCM makes a fantastic product.


C4

I would agree in this case but still think it is important to note because when they do mention another company they don't have a financial relationship with it gives both companies and them more credibility. To me it comes across as hey this company I work with makes great products and so does this one I don't work with, I just want you the consumer to have a great product regardless of wether I make a cent or not.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[C4IGrant]

http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/guns-and-weapons/dpms-csat-perimeter-and-tactical-rifles/

Many moons ago, some very well known instructors informed me that not all Tier 1 and 2 guys were "gun guys." Meaning, they know nothing about what makes a quality weapon. I initially rejected this notion, but over my many years to talking with this group of guys (some active duty, some retired, etc), it became painfully apparent that this statement was true.

In Mr. Howe's case, I believe that he wanted a rifle spec'd out a certain way and DPMS was one of the few companies that offered to make it (read setup with the rails, grips, stock, etc) that he liked.


C4

[alvincullumyork]

To everyone who has provided links so far thank you. I think this is really interesting. I'm not sure if it will amount to anything super meaningful but it is another data point to consider. I will edit the op with the new ones when I get back to my computer.

If you don't think this is a worthy discussion please feel free not to contribute. I'm not saying your opinion is worthless I just want to keep this thread on track. If you would like to discuss the merits of instructor endorsements start another thread. Again I'm not trying be or sound like a dick and I apologize if I come across that way I just don't want this thread spiraling out of control.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[C4IGrant]

I would agree in this case but still think it is important to note because when they do mention another company they don't have a financial relationship with it gives both companies and them more credibility. To me it comes across as hey this company I work with makes great products and so does this one I don't work with, I just want you the consumer to have a great product regardless of wether I make a cent or not.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

To my knowledge, none of the BCM GunFighters receive a check from BCM (even the instructors with signature rifles). Read no royalties. So we need to make sure it is clear that they endorse BCM without receiving a paycheck.



C4

[alvincullumyork]

To my knowledge, none of the BCM GunFighters receive a check from BCM (even the instructors with signature rifles). Read no royalties. So we need to make sure it is clear that they endorse BCM without receiving a paycheck.



C4

That is very interesting and pretty cool. Do you have a primary source I can link to? Not that I don't take your word for it.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[C4IGrant]

That is very interesting and pretty cool. Do you have a primary source I can link to? Not that I don't take your word for it.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

No, I just know it from my talks with the owner of BCM.


C4

[Boss Hogg]

In addition to Troy and BCM, Frank Proctor has a Windham Weaponry (factory formerly known as Bushmaster after Freedom Group acquired) carbine

https://www.windhamweaponry.com/newsletters/06202014.asp

[WS6]

Many moons ago, some very well known instructors informed me that not all Tier 1 and 2 guys were "gun guys." Meaning, they know nothing about what makes a quality weapon. I initially rejected this notion, but over my many years to talking with this group of guys (some active duty, some retired, etc), it became painfully apparent that this statement was true.

In Mr. Howe's case, I believe that he wanted a rifle spec'd out a certain way and DPMS was one of the few companies that offered to make it (read setup with the rails, grips, stock, etc) that he liked.


C4

Regarding your first, I agree.
Regarding your second, that's interesting. I'm not meaning that in a snide way, I just find it interesting. Thanks for the backstory.

[alvincullumyork]

No, I just know it from my talks with the owner of BCM.


C4

What about Travis Haley and the Jack rifle?


Edit: oops. Read your really reply again.

I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[justin_247]

http://www.tactical-life.com/magazines/guns-and-weapons/dpms-csat-perimeter-and-tactical-rifles/


Many moons ago, some very well known instructors informed me that not all Tier 1 and 2 guys were "gun guys." Meaning, they know nothing about what makes a quality weapon. I initially rejected this notion, but over my many years to talking with this group of guys (some active duty, some retired, etc), it became painfully apparent that this statement was true.

In Mr. Howe's case, I believe that he wanted a rifle spec'd out a certain way and DPMS was one of the few companies that offered to make it (read setup with the rails, grips, stock, etc) that he liked.


C4

That's very old. Paul Howe is now associated with Wilson Combat, and they build a much better gun.

http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDV2AvldXG4

[justin_247]

Kyle Lamb has run a S&W rifle for years now... VTAC has a partnership with Troy to make custom accessories, but they go on the S&W rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv8Zklkfa3I
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_802551_-1_757784_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

EDIT: Yes, Troy does make a "SGM Lamb" rifle, but I have yet to see Lamb advertise it like he's done with S&W.

[C4IGrant]

That's very old. Paul Howe is now associated with Wilson Combat, and they build a much better gun.

http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDV2AvldXG4

Yes, I know. Was just adding input to that post.


C4

[justin_247]

Jason Falla runs KAC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KMpo7Xyffk

Steve Fisher was running a Legion Firearms gun for awhile, but now that they've gone out of business, I have no idea...

[26 Inf]

To my knowledge, none of the BCM GunFighters receive a check from BCM (even the instructors with signature rifles). Read no royalties. So we need to make sure it is clear that they endorse BCM without receiving a paycheck. C4

What about rifles, accessories and other gear? Are those items comped, discounted or retail?

[thopkins22]

What about rifles, accessories and other gear? Are those items comped, discounted or retail?

Sometimes, sometimes, and sometimes.

Take KD4 as an example. He built and purchased at retail prices, every single part that initially went on his "everyman's hunting rifle." But he also shoots using a lot of USO glass, and given his relationship with them it's safe to assume that he does not pay for them...or at the very least doesn't pay full retail. Note, I don't know for a fact that he doesn't pay full retail here...it's just an example of a situation where an instructor probably does not. It doesn't mean that they are not great optics and that he wouldn't endorse them fully.

Also, a lot of these folks are like gun writers in the sense that they get something sent to them on indefinite loan for them to wring out. It's not technically been given to them for free with nothing expected in return.

ETA: I think it's worth noting that at the end of the day the AR is a great platform with a lot of inherent reliability. We're gun guys here and attempt to find perfection, and balk at anything that's not the best it can be. This is a great thing and I embrace that. But the fact is that unless you have genuine retards building the guns...most of them will run lights out in most situations. Even shitty brands...you just have a higher chance of having problems with them than you do with companies that build to a quality spec. Well, other than Olympic anyway(MarkM don't break out your pictures.)

Also opinions, knowledge, and so forth evolve over time. Wilson Combat came out with a rail that was similar to and preceded the KAC URX 3.1, and people freaked out like it was the dumbest thing ever. In the magazine thread that's stuck here, people used to maintain that the best option were the HK mags and that everything else was a crapshoot. We evolve, our understanding evolves, and this holds true for some of the most experienced and knowledgeable instructors on the planet.

[C4IGrant]

What about rifles, accessories and other gear? Are those items comped, discounted or retail?

I don't run BCM so I don't know all the specifics of everything. A lot of companies give instructors free kit to give away to the students for prizes and such. How much is anyones guess.



C4

[TMS951]

Jeff Gonzales presents the new MK6 rifle in the LWRC booth at SHOT Show 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK9Szn0xqWE

Had a previous rifle with them, seems to be coming out with a new one.

Que MarkM in 5 4 3…..

[PatrioticDisorder]

Jeff Gonzales presents the new MK6 rifle in the LWRC booth at SHOT Show 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK9Szn0xqWE

Had a previous rifle with them, seems to be coming out with a new one.

Que MarkM in 5 4 3…..

Since we're Queing MarkM, Stephen Pineau also endorses LWRC, 3,2,1....

[7.62NATO]

.....

[Ranger325]

Kyle Lamb has run a S&W rifle for years now... VTAC has a partnership with Troy to make custom accessories, but they go on the S&W rifle.

A few years back Noveske had a relationship with Lamb and produced the VTAC Carbine - I have one.

[C4IGrant]

What do you run personally? Thanks.

I have several AR's and I typically build them all from scratch using a wide range of parts. My three main AR's have a DD, BCM and a Noveske lowers. I am one of those guys that doesn't trust anyone to build me an AR, but me. ;)




C4

[Iraqgunz]

Steve Fisher has 2 SIONICS carbines that we built for him with our components and his at his request. He's been shooting them now for about 8 months.


Jason Falla runs KAC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KMpo7Xyffk

Steve Fisher was running a Legion Firearms gun for awhile, but now that they've gone out of business, I have no idea...

[turnburglar]

I think the main take away from this thread, is the number of DI vs piston guns that instructors use.

[justin_247]

A few years back Noveske had a relationship with Lamb and produced the VTAC Carbine - I have one.

Yup, this is true. I forgot about that.

[justin_247]

Steve Fisher has 2 SIONICS carbines that we built for him with our components and his at his request. He's been shooting them now for about 8 months.

Awesome! That answers that question.

[SE Flyer]

Ask Yeager what brand of automatic transmission he endorses.

[TacMedic556]

I have never even seen a Wilson Combat AR in real life.

[cop1211]

Who cares what someone else runs, ( or gets "endorsed" to run)Doesn't take too much research to figure out there are plenty of good rifle companies out there. Buy what you like, and what works for your style of shooting.

[joe138]

I had a class with Rob Trevino, of Evergreen Mountain Training, a couple of weeks ago. His rifle had a BCM upper, but I couldn't make out the lower.

[Will545]

I believe NutnFancy likes to operate with Rock River and Bushmaster.

[HKGuns]

I guess I am strange, I spend my money on the things I like, not those things someone else likes, is paid to like or tells me to like.

No disrespect intended, but I'm fairly certain most of the SME's didn't use BCM, DD, Wyndham or "most" of the other brands mentioned above, when they were active duty and asses were on the line.

[lawusmc0844]

Nothing strange about that, people should find what works for them and use it, not sheepishly follow what a "celebrity" endorses.

Of course they'll use whats issued unless theyre in a high speed unit with an awesome CoC. Maybe their personal weapons were DD, BCM, etc, myself I liked the Colt M16A2s and M4s and FN M16A4 s the Marine Corps issued me. I started buying BCM and DD from what people on here and LF were saying about them, and found them to be excellent quality.

[TacMedic556]

I guess I am strange, I spend my money on the things I like, not those things someone else likes, is paid to like or tells me to like.

No disrespect intended, but I'm fairly certain most of the SME's didn't use BCM, DD, Wyndham or "most" of the other brands mentioned above, when they were active duty and asses were on the line.


You are likely 99.999% correct. They most likely used Colt and FN during those arduous times.

[ryantx23]

I am with Grant. The instructors / BTDT's worth their salt aren't going to put their reputation on the line for a piece of shit. It's just not gonna happen. At least as far as the ones I have attended training from and had in depth conversations with.

There is no be all, end all. Pick a quality rifle and couple that with quality training. That will serve you better in the long run.

[BravoCompanyUSA]

To my knowledge, none of the BCM GunFighters receive a check from BCM (even the instructors with signature rifles). Read no royalties. So we need to make sure it is clear that they endorse BCM without receiving a paycheck.



C4

Thank you G.

This is correct. We do not do "compensated endorsements". IMHO, it would be meaningless. The EAG and HSP rifles are royalty free.
None of these men are paid for endorsements. You could not buy it at any price. We actually recently removed their personal testimonials about BCM from our website as it furthered this misnomer. http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

They are given prototype rifles and accessories to T&E. Many of you have noticed BCM prototypes in their classes months and even years before they are ready for retail. So our development of new products takes longer but I feel the info from experienced trigger pullers is absolutely invaluable. We are truly indebted to them and can not thank them enough.

As many of you already know, we have been working with many of them for a number of years. It was only recently we offered a web page to give their training companies additional exposure. And now we are working with them on the American Gunfighter short film series. Hoping to do a new short film every 2 months. http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/american_gunfighter/ Also doing monthly newsletters keeping folks informed of training opportunities.
None of this is about selling more rifles or stocks. Its about being a part of something bigger than just yourself. Its about introducing new people to and promoting a culture of defensive training and the American warrior.

Full disclosure: HSP has a marketing division led by Jon Chang and it is compensated for building the BCM website, new photography, etc. http://www.haleystrategic.com/marketing.php
And we since the inception of Larry's Tactical TV, we have been a headline sponsor along with other great companies. http://www.youtube.com/user/VickersTacticalInc

Thank you for your time,
Paul

[MegademiC]

Who cares what someone else runs, ( or gets "endorsed" to run)Doesn't take too much research to figure out there are plenty of good rifle companies out there. Buy what you like, and what works for your style of shooting.

Because when multiple experts put hundreds of thousands of rounds through certain manufacture's rifles, we know that company produces quality stuff. That's why its easy to do the research you speak of. They go together.

Its not just what they use, but also what they don't use. Their are a few companies that produce rifles that on paper could pass for a colt, but no reputable trainers use these brands to my knowledge. This info helps people make informed decisions.

[26 Inf]

Thank you G.

(redacted to save bandwidth)

Thank you for your time,
Paul

Thanks for taking the time to post that. Like many on here I like to build my own, so I appreciate your fast shipping and service as well as the quality of the product.

I would like to inquire about maybe securing employment as a 'blemisher' or an 'upper receiver disassembler.'

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to explain.

[wilson1911]

Go take a class with Chris, he shoots a KAC SR 15. Yes, he is sponsored by them, but he really likes the rifle whether they would or not.

[Hank6046]

I have never even seen a Wilson Combat AR in real life.

My LGS has two, they're newer, but nice, the Noveske for $1750, and DDV7 for $1200 looked more appealing but to each his own

[Hank6046]

I believe NutnFancy likes to operate with Rock River and Bushmaster.

while I tend to agree with some of the guns Nutnfancy calls "awesome", he is hardly a Instructor, or someone who has seen rifle after rifle put through extreme stress

[VIP3R 237]

I believe NutnFancy likes to operate with Rock River and Bushmaster.

I really hope that was sarcasm, because he wouldn't know a quality rifle if it hit him in the face, and is no where near a SME nor a respectful trainer/instructor.

[ClearedHot]

Kyle Defoor also runs BCM carbines.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/13fc980a34a3814e3553c89afadc3ec8/tumblr_na0cxiSYVd1ruk0n4o1_1280.jpg

And apparently he builds them too.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/4de369531fdc914da73f1e4003808669/tumblr_nbt91bFoGC1ruk0n4o7_1280.jpg

[WS6]

I really think that BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Noveske, LaRue, Etc. etc. all come down to "what do you want...and who makes that configuration?"

It seems that this is exactly what this thread confirms...SME's threw their wish-list together and picked a solid company that was willing to build it and had what they wanted. Different SME's want different things, and different companies specialize in said things. For example, one may want a lightweight Keymod rail...well, BCM has one. Etc.

[cd228]

Another factor to consider is the evolution of the M4/M16 industry. As the number of makers expanded folks had more options as do the instructors. Equipment that was acceptable 10 years ago may not be overshadowed by today's offerings. I do find it intresting that a large number of instructors have migrated to specific makers.

I don't consider these guys celebrities. To me they are working professionals, scoping out their gear is just like asking your mechanic what kind of cars he recomends, or asking a professional carpenter what kind of hammer he recomends. I'm not saying there isn't some marketing or fanboyism going on, but most of these instructors have alot of experience and knowledge and we can definately should tap in to.

[WS6]

I have shot the Stoner designed AR style platform for forty-four years in one form or another as a combat decorated infantry Marine as a Police Officer and as a civilian.

I have actually used this type rifle in combat. The new Noveske Rifleworks N4 Thunder Ranch AR rifle is the best example of this rifle I have ever owned over the last four plus decades. The design implemented by the NRW team is a combination of their knowledge of the tool and my knowledge and real world application of this tool. To some people this rifle might seem expensive, my response to that is yes and in the truest sense you get what you pay for.

I own and use Noveske AR style rifles as they are the platform I teach with and even more importantly they are the rifle I would defend Heidi, Boo and myself with. I have worked on this now realized concept of the rifle for years and John Noveske is the person who listened to what I had to say and more importantly he was willing to build the rifle the way it should be built for serious applications. This concept will be copied by others in part and parcel in the future, but it will not be built better by anyone anywhere.

Heidi and I are grateful and thrilled that John, Lorina, Sheri and the NRW team has stood with us to build this very best of the breed.

My only regret is that I did not have this rifle forty-four years ago in combat, but that regret is tempered by the fact that I can and will gladly use this Noveske rifle for the rest of my teaching and shooting career.



Clint Smith

Thunder Ranch

[justin_247]

I really think that BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Noveske, LaRue, Etc. etc. all come down to "what do you want...and who makes that configuration?"

It seems that this is exactly what this thread confirms...SME's threw their wish-list together and picked a solid company that was willing to build it and had what they wanted. Different SME's want different things, and different companies specialize in said things. For example, one may want a lightweight Keymod rail...well, BCM has one. Etc.

Exactly. And BCM has the largest variety of receivers on the market, so that helps, too. The bottom line in all of this is that there are a few brands out there that are of known quality.

If you stick with BCM, Centurion, Colt, DD, LMT, and Sionics, you are going to be getting quality kit. If you need something a little more high end or specialized, there's HK, KAC, LaRue, Noveske, Wilson Combat, etc.

Rainier Arms, Spike's, S&W, FN, and PSA may be alright on a case-by-case basis, and you should put a little more time and effort into the specs and checking the QC on these guns.

I really can't think of another brand I'd be willing to trust.

[PatrioticDisorder]

Exactly. And BCM has the largest variety of receivers on the market, so that helps, too. The bottom line in all of this is that there are a few brands out there that are of known quality.

If you stick with BCM, Centurion, Colt, DD, LMT, and Sionics, you are going to be getting quality kit. If you need something a little more high end or specialized, there's HK, KAC, LaRue, Noveske, Wilson Combat, etc.

Rainier Arms, Spike's, S&W, FN, and PSA may be alright on a case-by-case basis, and you should put a little more time and effort into the specs and checking the QC on these guns.

I really can't think of another brand I'd be willing to trust.

i have zero experience with Wilson, but rarely hear anyone recommend them. What does Wilson bring to the table that wild put them up there with KAC, HK, LaRue & Noveske?

[DarkTemplars]

i have zero experience with Wilson, but rarely hear anyone recommend them. What does Wilson bring to the table that wild put them up there with KAC, HK, LaRue & Noveske?

The typical WC workmanship. I've had a Colt AR and a Wilson. The workmanship on the WC was much higher than the Colt. Which is what you would expect out of a rifle with that much higher of a price point.

I've had no issues with my Wilson. It's a great rifle. Stupid accurate and reliable

But, like their 1911s, they aren't for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Surf]

IME with a lot of high speed types, what often makes them high speed is not necessarily that they are "the best" with pure weapons handling or marksmanship. They are very good, but many here could out shoot them. What makes them great is the total package. I will also note that the greater majority don't necessarily know the finer details of what makes a great rifle. Most of the SME types discussed in this thread would tend to be more the exception than the rule.

[WS6]

The typical WC workmanship. I've had a Colt AR and a Wilson. The workmanship on the WC was much higher than the Colt. Which is what you would expect out of a rifle with that much higher of a price point.

I've had no issues with my Wilson. It's a great rifle. Stupid accurate and reliable

But, like their 1911s, they aren't for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have found that workmanship does not always equal functionship. You're right, their 1911's are not for everyone. After multiple warranty return trips, they finally bought my Supergrade Tactical back from me and I bought a SIG and a Glock and have had a much better go of things without all the malfunctions and sights falling off etc.

[WS6]

IME with a lot of high speed types, what often makes them high speed is not necessarily that they are "the best" with pure weapons handling or marksmanship. They are very good, but many here could out shoot them. What makes them great is the total package. I will also note that the greater majority don't necessarily know the finer details of what makes a great rifle. Most of the SME types discussed in this thread would tend to be more the exception than the rule.

I couldn't have said it better from my limited experience. I have attended a few classes with people who I consider "high-speed" (current SOCOM), and what impressed me most about them was how damn smart and well-rounded they were as people. The typical "in-practice" 3-gunner I have seen is a "better shot" on paper at the range. But if you drop them in a 3rd world hell-hole they might curl up and die of the shits rather than raise a government-altering army.

Sometimes I feel like asking some of those high-speed guys about weapons is about asking a doctor which arterial line manufacturer they prefer.

[BufordTJustice]

Sometimes I feel like asking some of those high-speed guys about weapons is about asking a doctor which arterial line manufacturer they prefer.

I've thought this for a long time.

[Boba Fett v2]

I'm looking for instructors going on the record recommending specific brands of rifles. I'll post instructors with links to their recommendations at the top.


The only one I can find easily is Larry Vickers but I would like to see a variety of names like Rob Pincus, Travis Haley, James Yeager, or Pat McNamara or really anyone else. I understand some instructor will endorse only the brand they are sponsored by or work for but that is not always the case (ala LAV) and I think it would be interesting to see where they all fall.

Edit: What I want specifically is;

1. Instructor
2. Link to them stating that brand x makes a good rifle
3. Link to them stating that brand x makes a bad rifle
4. Link to brand x that sponsors them or carries there signature rifle


A (s) by the company name means that the instructor is sponsored by or has a rifle with that company

Larry Vickers - Daniel Defense(s), BCM(s), Colt
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mKD-CmX4zQ

James Yeager - Spikes Tactical, Daniel Defense, Barrett
Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe3qor3zOGk&feature=youtu.be

Pat Rogers - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Travis Haley - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

John Chapman - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Pat McNamara - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Mike Pannone - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Kyle Defoor - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Tom Spooner - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

JD Potynsky - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Ken Hackathorn - BCM (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php

Frank Proctor - BCM (s), Troy (s)
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php
http://troydefense.com/portfolio/proctor-carbine/

Kyle Lamb - Troy (s)
http://troydefense.com/portfolio/sgm-lamb-carbine/

Paul Howe - Wilson Combat (s)
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/rifle-paul-howe.asp#.VDS-QEtPUdt

You left out Costa - the most celebrity of all the instructors even. LaRue has a carbine with his name all over it. Both him and Haley are also known to run and endorse KAC guns.

ETA: I guess I should've read all five pages of this thread before I spit that out. Anyway, that dude Grady Powell from Asymmetric Solutions seems to like the Black Rain Ordnance. Personally, I don't give two ****s who endorses what guns. I'd like to think that I've got a lot of personal experience behind the trigger in real world applications to decide for myself what I want in a fighting carbine (accessories aside). Nevertheless this has been a fun read.

[Koshinn]

IME with a lot of high speed types, what often makes them high speed is not necessarily that they are "the best" with pure weapons handling or marksmanship. They are very good, but many here could out shoot them. What makes them great is the total package. I will also note that the greater majority don't necessarily know the finer details of what makes a great rifle. Most of the SME types discussed in this thread would tend to be more the exception than the rule.

You shoot Noveske and make your own right?

[Boba Fett v2]

I am pretty sure in some of his Panteo videos Paul Howe uses a pretty worn looking Larue, though I do not know or recall if he specifically endorsed or recommended it. Not too surprising if you consider they are both located in TX.

Not surprising. I've worked with quite a few former unit guys who liked LaRue products.

[Boba Fett v2]

Many moons ago, some very well known instructors informed me that not all Tier 1 and 2 guys were "gun guys." Meaning, they know nothing about what makes a quality weapon. I initially rejected this notion, but over my many years to talking with this group of guys (some active duty, some retired, etc), it became painfully apparent that this statement was true.

In Mr. Howe's case, I believe that he wanted a rifle spec'd out a certain way and DPMS was one of the few companies that offered to make it (read setup with the rails, grips, stock, etc) that he liked.


C4

Yes, there is a lot of truth in this statement.

[alvincullumyork]

Sorry I haven't updated the original yet. Work has been busy to say the least.


You left out Costa - the most celebrity of all the instructors even. LaRue has a carbine with his name all over it. Both him and Haley are also known to run and endorse KAC guns.

ETA: I guess I should've read all five pages of this thread before I spit that out. Anyway, that dude Grady Powell from Asymmetric Solutions seems to like the Black Rain Ordnance. Personally, I don't give two ****s who endorses what guns. I'd like to think that I've got a lot of personal experience behind the trigger in real world applications to decide for myself what I want in a fighting carbine (accessories aside). Nevertheless this has been a fun read.




I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[alvincullumyork]

I believe NutnFancy likes to operate with Rock River and Bushmaster.


while I tend to agree with some of the guns Nutnfancy calls "awesome", he is hardly a Instructor, or someone who has seen rifle after rifle put through extreme stress


I really hope that was sarcasm, because he wouldn't know a quality rifle if it hit him in the face, and is no where near a SME nor a respectful trainer/instructor.

Actually if true I think that says a lot. If anyone can find a link saying he likes rock river or bushmaster I will definitely put it on the list.


I may ride a little fast and someday it may catch up and bite me in the ass but maybe not if I give it just a little more gas.

[Aray]

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask what someone like Ken Elmore thinks?

[26 Inf]

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask what someone like Ken Elmore thinks?

I think that folks like Ken Elmore and Greg Sullivan would be good folks to ask for concrete reasons why they prefer certain brands over others. They both conduct 'independent' armorer courses which are highly regarded.

Additionally, any instructor that runs/teaches firearms courses to the masses will have a good idea of what weapons they see breaking down all the time and, if they have any kind of armorer's background, why they are breaking.

[Boba Fett v2]

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask what someone like Ken Elmore thinks?

Or our own resident Will Larson? I would value their insight above all others.

[Dirty_H]

My LGS has two, they're newer, but nice, the Noveske for $1750, and DDV7 for $1200 looked more appealing but to each his own

Where is that gun store! Those are some good deals!

[alvincullumyork]

I edited the OP with all the new information to this point. I may have made some mistakes or edit something wrong so if you see anything let me know. I also only added responses that had links.

The reason I wanted to include 'instructors' of dubious reputations is because I think that they will probably recommend rifles from dubious manufactures. I don't think I made that point very clear.

I would love to see someone on the record saying to avoid brand x because it sub standard.

[Surf]

You shoot Noveske and make your own right?My primary working rifle is a Colt M4A1 which now wears a 10.5" LMT upper. I do not personally own this rifle. Excellent rifle that I easily trust my life to but not my personal preference / favorite. I do personally own a lot of rifles and by far I prefer to do my own builds. The only complete factory rifles I own are a couple of Colt 6920's, A3HBAR and a 6940. The rifles I use the most are all my own builds, primarily off of Noveske GenII Lowers. I do have 3 of the cerakoted Sionics upper / lower sets that are now rifles and a several other various branded lowers that are complete rifles. Barrels tend to be mostly Noveske, BCM, DD, WOA but again I have a few other branded barrels that I do like.

I definitely have a recipe of my favorite parts combo's that provide tremendous reliability, accuracy in a light recoiling set up. Without a doubt I greatly prefer to build my own rifles, to my exact preferences and tolerances. I was experimenting with the ultra light builds but I am moving away from that direction and sticking with certain barrel profile / types and not looking for weight savings when it comes to the barrel and its performance variance.

[Surf]

I think that folks like Ken Elmore and Greg Sullivan would be good folks to ask for concrete reasons why they prefer certain brands over others. They both conduct 'independent' armorer courses which are highly regarded.

Additionally, any instructor that runs/teaches firearms courses to the masses will have a good idea of what weapons they see breaking down all the time and, if they have any kind of armorer's background, why they are breaking.Ken pretty much wrote the book that many of us originally learned from. Mark who was / is still with Ken knows the book inside and out. Many who do this recreationally or even professionally could only dream of a shop in which Ken has with his company. I like to think I know quite a bit, but what I do know for sure is, guys like Ken have probably forgotten more than I know and my ability to perform certain work pales to his shops capabilities. Also many like Sully, Will, Robb and numerous others are exceptionally knowledgeable and extremely good at what they do and perform work well outside of the simple "armorer" category. What is often times the limiting factor is the tooling, machinery, which leads to experience but again now we are way outside of the basic or even advanced armorer / armoring category.

Also as you mention, those instructors who know the weapon inside and out from a mechanical and functional standpoint generally have much better or more detailed insight than those who do not.

[3ACR_Scout]

Its not just what they use, but also what they don't use.
I actually think that's a little bit of an issue when it comes to endorsements. People that are new to shooting and the AR platform may misinterpret those endorsements to mean that an instructor doesn't use other brands because they aren't as good. For example, a couple years ago, Pat Rogers started using Tango Down ARC magazines in his photos (and his classes). Someone who is inexperienced or easily influenced might take this to mean that Pat Rogers thinks that PMAGs and GI mags aren't good enough. He has said positive things about the TD mags, but I noticed that BCM also has the best price on them that I've seen, so I was curious if that was just coincidence. I'm sure he legitimately likes the TD mags and feels that they are reliable and durable, but someone might interpret his switch to those magazines as an indication that he found something lacking in PMAGs, just as an example. I think endorsements, sponsorships, and any relationships in the industry can be read in different ways, so as others have said, it's always best to do your own research and testing to supplement the various professional opinions out there.

Dave

[VIP3R 237]

LAV also recommends the TD mags so it makes you wonder.

[WS6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7lT7tDEjDU

[Ned Christiansen]

FWIW...... Once in a while you'll see one of the guys with unimpeachable CV's as a fighter and trainer get hooked up with an outfit known for second-rate stuff.

[Hank6046]

Where is that gun store! Those are some good deals!

Armzen Arms, Eden Prairie, MN armzenarms.com, I think

[GeorgeB]

I'm a new shooter, but the guy in this video did not appear to be pulling his trigger from the reset point after his first shot. Am I wrong?

[Korgs130]

None of this is about selling more rifles or stocks. Its about being a part of something bigger than just yourself. Its about introducing new people to and promoting a culture of defensive training and the American warrior.



That is pretty awesome. It's great to see some who is in the position to do something like that, do something like that. Thank you for taking the time to post.

[midSCarolina]

I'm a new shooter, but the guy in this video did not appear to be pulling his trigger from the reset point after his first shot. Am I wrong?

Not sure what you mean. Its an AR trigger... it isn't like a glock trigger that will travel a fair amount past the reset. Everything looks normal to me.

[GeorgeB]

My apologies, I was referring to his handgun shooting, in the first run of the drill. It looked to me he was not shooting the handgun from the reset point after his first shot. Or does the handgun he is shooting have a long reset?

[Failure2Stop]

My apologies, I was referring to his handgun shooting, in the first run of the drill. It looked to me he was not shooting the handgun from the reset point after his first shot. Or does the handgun he is shooting have a long reset?
He's fully releasing the trigger as soon as the shot breaks, ensuring maximum time on trigger press and definite reset under stress.

[Boba Fett v2]

I'm a new shooter, but the guy in this video did not appear to be pulling his trigger from the reset point after his first shot. Am I wrong?

*gasp* That's not a "guy". That's Kyle Lamb!

[thopkins22]

Shooting from reset is great...when you're trying to minimize every last bit of wobble into the pistol. Shooting a string of shots for accuracy or a long distance set of plates? Shoot from reset. But watch any of the top pros in slow motion(or yourself if you have access to the equipment,) when you start speeding things up...I've never seen someone reliably shoot from the reset(particularly pistols.)

Hell guys like Rob Leatham and Todd Jarret flat out SLAP the trigger(or sweep as they call it.) And Rob Leatham is one of the best if not THE best pistol shooters to ever walk the planet.

Stop thinking of shooting from reset as a way to potentially speed up your shooting...because it won't speed up your shooting. It is a way to minimize trigger movement. Smart shooters realize that there is a time and place for each technique...and what the balance of speed/accuracy needs to be in a given situation. And the more steady you can hold a firearm the more it starts to make sense to view the trigger press as an obstacle to be defeated as opposed to something that has to be finessed. If you can keep the sight picture correct(or correct enough for the target in question,) it matters not what you do to the trigger...so you may as well get fast.