View Full Version : NEW Leupold LCO optic
gamewarden
10-11-14, 07:15
Saw it in Viking Tactics latest training video. Anyone have any intel? It seems to be a RDS with a fairly small footprint. Kyle does a fairly good job of hiding it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7lT7tDEjDU&list=UUs5iRZoqlgf2YPtvjHfDdXw
Fuzzy-Reticle
10-11-14, 09:09
Pure speculation on my part but looks like some sort of holo site like an Eotech XPS. It appears from the video to be roughly similar in size and shape to the XPS maybe slightly smaller.
It would be pure tits if it had an etched reticle for those with astigmatism.
It would be pure tits if it had an etched reticle for those with astigmatism.
No kidding, my keratoconus makes it so I can just about only use ACOGs for illuminated optics.
steyrman13
10-12-14, 08:27
It would be pure tits if it had an etched reticle for those with astigmatism.
I know why you say that, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a holo sight. Being able to be at any angle as long as you can see the reticle it is "on target" within reason
I know why you say that, but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a holo sight. Being able to be at any angle as long as you can see the reticle it is "on target" within reason
Eotech and Aimpoint already dominate that field. The etched angle would fill a niche for people who otherwise run mini ACOG's but would rather true 1X and battery power to prevent washout.
Dog Off LEash
10-12-14, 14:41
Eotech and Aimpoint already dominate that field.
If Leupold could resolve the shortcomings of the EOTech, it could be a potential game-changer.
Eotech and Aimpoint already dominate that field. The etched angle would fill a niche for people who otherwise run mini ACOG's but would rather true 1X and battery power to prevent washout.
Don't they already make something like that with their prismatic sight?
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/tactical-prismatic-riflescopes/prismatic-tactical-1x14mm/
Don't they already make something like that with their prismatic sight?
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/tactical-prismatic-riflescopes/prismatic-tactical-1x14mm/
Yes but perhaps this Is a better execution.
Would like to see a release from Leupold on the specs and reticle.
Eotech and Aimpoint already dominate that field. The etched angle would fill a niche for people who otherwise run mini ACOG's but would rather true 1X and battery power to prevent washout.
Why 1x if it's not going to be parallax-free? Why not 1-4x or something like that?
Even with astigmatism, does the Aimpoint really hinder your ability to out rounds on target? My T1 dot looks like a spider, but I've managed to make hits on 18" plates to 700+.
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Why 1x if it's not going to be parallax-free? Why not 1-4x or something like that?
Even with astigmatism, does the Aimpoint really hinder your ability to out rounds on target? My T1 dot looks like a spider, but I've managed to make hits on 18" plates to 700+.
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Leupold already has a 1x variable. Weight.
No optic is parallax free.
Not fully parallax free but parallax free beyond a few feet---you know what I was saying. Very small market segment cares about a 1x etched reticle because there will be more parallax with a reticle vs a projection.
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Not fully parallax free but parallax free beyond a few feet---you know what I was saying. Very small market segment cares about a 1x etched reticle because there will be more parallax with a reticle vs a projection.
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My t1 has plenty at 100 yards. This is why I zero and shoot with my fsp up typically so I can maintain the same relationship with the dot as to avoid zero shift from parallax.
Funny, mine doesn't seem to at all. I run both eyes open an can pretty much nail targets
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Funny, mine doesn't seem to at all. I run both eyes open an can pretty much nail targets
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Ymmv. Shooting groups exposed the issue. Running and gunning was no issue though. My adjustments and groups sucked until Kyle lamb had me try it his way though. I've stuck with it and it's done me a solid.
Mine shoots groups smaller than the dot. How big were your groups? Whole purpose of 1x is speed. If it were an etched reticle is we afraid of losing speed.
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Mine shoots groups smaller than the dot. How big were your groups? Whole purpose of 1x is speed. If it were an etched reticle is we afraid of losing speed.
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About 3" with m193 at 100. 3 clicks got a 6" shift and I knew something was wrong. Kyle to the rescue. It was impossible to zero easily until the fsp came up and the dot was consistently related to it.
Failure2Stop
10-13-14, 11:27
I'm with WS6 on this.
There is a difference, depending on precision expectation.
Over the last year I've found myself less and less interested in red dots.
I used to own an EXPS3-0 and still own a PRO and T-1. T-1 is on my SBR and PRO on my .22 upper.
But after using a Mk8 at <25yd matches... I don't see the point anymore... So I plan to replace all my optics with Mk8s. After I win the lottery.
But seriously, I'd rather run a Vortex 1-4 or VX-R 1.25-4 or Mk6 or VCOG or obviously a Mk8 over any red dot.
I hope this new optic has like 1.5x magnification to be honest. Leupold better be going with a DP2 type illumination rather than the Mk6/8 though.
I'm with WS6 on this.
There is a difference, depending on precision expectation.
In my case, I found that it prevented me from getting a good zero from the prone using M193 at 100. I had always thought Aimpoint = See the dot, see the target, G2G!
I fired a group at 100 yards and it was off to the left about 3". So, I gingerly cranked in 3 clicks, and fired another. It was to the right 3" and a bit down. Huh? Kyle Lamb approached me about it and I told the same to him. He told me to flip the front BUIS up, and put the dot on top of the post for each shot. Somehow, magically, I was able to zero it after firing the next group, saw that it had NOT moved 6" from 3 clicks, and learned that a sacred cow of mine had met its demise.
I have learned over and over and over and OVER again so many times it makes my head hurt how different the real world is from my medical text books, or from product descriptions, or from what "logic" dictates something should be. I'm still 28, and still learning that lesson. I just can't stress enough how much one can learn from doing, or listening to those who have done, that can't be found in print, and can't be derived from product advertisement literature.
2MOA dot or 4? You must remember that your true point or aim is the center of the for an that can be misjudged. A carbine shooting 3 MOA ammo with a 4 MOA dot isn't expected to shoot within the point of aim.
I don't really shoot groups with red dots few ineptly, they aren't for precision shooting but for speed.
I really haven't had much of an issue, but I typically had a fixed front sight anyway. My best 5 round group shot zeroing was half MOA. I use the dot as dim as possible and use a six o'clock hold.
I'm still not sure what you think an etched reticle will accomplish. Parallax will be worse. Sight picture is critical with an etched (or wire) reticle, it may just be easier for some guys to judge a sight picture.
If group shooting is important, you've over chosen wrong optic anyway and that 1x etched reticle you desire won't fix it. You'll just need to pay that weight penalty.
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teutonicpolymer
10-13-14, 15:55
Why 1x if it's not going to be parallax-free? Why not 1-4x or something like that?
Even with astigmatism, does the Aimpoint really hinder your ability to out rounds on target? My T1 dot looks like a spider, but I've managed to make hits on 18" plates to 700+.
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No scope or red dot is truly parallax free
As to etched versus red dot or holographic-
All 3 are in focus at infinity aka does nit matter where your head is behind the scope, it (reticle) should be in focus. The difference is eye relief. Basically all riflescopes have a definite eye relief including the prismatic.
No scope or red dot is truly parallax free
As to etched versus red dot or holographic-
All 3 are in focus at infinity aka does nit matter where your head is behind the scope, it (reticle) should be in focus. The difference is eye relief. Basically all riflescopes have a definite eye relief including the prismatic.
Dude read the thread.
And reticle in focus has NOTHING to so with parallax.
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teutonicpolymer
10-13-14, 17:28
Dude read the thread.
And reticle in focus has NOTHING to so with parallax.
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Not what I was saying
You said it. If you are going to nitpick my post without reading the whole thread where it was already addressed, I'll do it back to you. Aimpoints are "relatively" parallax free. I believe it's parallax free at something like 25 or 50, and has minimal impact on ability to put rounds on target.
Focus is something entirely unrelated to parallax. Aimpoint, Eotech, etc have no way to adjust focus. Focus isn't set for a range. Focus is typically set at the eyepiece, parallax on the side or at the objective.
Typically an etched reticle or wire for that matter, will be set to be parallax-free at 75, 100, or 150 yards. The focus, an entirely different adjustment, will either be done via a lock-ring or fast-focus eyepiece. My S&B and Zeiss are fast-focus, whereas Leupold and NF have the lock ring.
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SomeOtherGuy
10-13-14, 21:59
You said it. If you are going to nitpick my post without reading the whole thread where it was already addressed, I'll do it back to you. Aimpoints are "relatively" parallax free. I believe it's parallax free at something like 25 or 50, and has minimal impact on ability to put rounds on target.
Focus is something entirely unrelated to parallax. Aimpoint, Eotech, etc have no way to adjust focus. Focus isn't set for a range. Focus is typically set at the eyepiece, parallax on the side or at the objective.
Typically an etched reticle or wire for that matter, will be set to be parallax-free at 75, 100, or 150 yards. The focus, an entirely different adjustment, will either be done via a lock-ring or fast-focus eyepiece. My S&B and Zeiss are fast-focus, whereas Leupold and NF have the lock ring.
In magnifying optics, parallax and focus are inherently related - there are two different images, the target image and the reticle image. They must be focused at the same plane or else parallax results (and one of them will be out of focus to your eye). All magnifying scopes have a reticle focus adjustment, at the eyepiece, which lets you set the scope for your own eyes, and it is essential to do so. Some scopes, either lower magnification or cheaper, have fixed focus for the target, which also means fixed parallax (as that term is used for magnifying scopes). Depending on the scope's intended use that fixed focus might be at 15-25 yards for airgun use, typically 50 for rimfire scopes, 50 or 75 for shotgun scopes, and 100 for most scopes intended for centerfire rifles, although a few are set for farther (my Zeiss Conquest 3-9x is marked as being set for 300, although my testing of it suggests it is set somewhat shorter than that). Higher magnification scopes of quality have adjustable target focus / parallax, usually a knob on the left side of the saddle, sometimes a variable objective (generally lower priced scopes but also one or two nicer ones), or most rarely, a rear focus (seen on SWFA SS fixed-power scopes). With these, you first adjust the ocular for your eye, then you adjust the target focus for the target image. With both properly focused, you eliminate parallax for the target on which you focused.
Red dots work completely differently, as no target image is formed inside the tube - the tube is essentially a clear glass for viewing the target, except for having an angled and curved piece of glass with a coating that reflects the wavelength of the LED used (typically red, but Trijicon uses other colors in their fiber-optic/Tritium reflex sights). Since no target image is formed, there is nothing to focus there - your parallax depends entirely on the setup of the light emitter and the curved, angled reflector. I'm not the most qualified to explain, but in general larger sized RDS (longer tube for greater distance from emitter to reflector, and larger diameter reflector) will have less of a parallax issue. I've experienced the parallax shift of the Aimpoint H1, which is why I don't own one any more and drifted towards 1-4x type scopes (I still have a 30mm Aimpoint).
And EOTech works differently still with a holographic system, which I will not attempt to explain.
In short - magnifying scopes always have some potential parallax, but it can be eliminated by focusing. RDS have some parallax in all cases, but it's often too small to matter, particularly for their intended use.
Congratulations for more or less repeating what I said.
My 3-9x conquest says in the literature 100 yards, however the tech told me 75.
You are wrong in that "focus" eliminates parallax. It simply isn't true. Target image and reticle being on the same focal plane, as you identify, is where parallax is eliminated.
This occurs without consideration of the reticle or the image being in focus. It's quite common for the image to be clear and "in focus" yet parallax to be present. Conversely, it is common for parallax to be eliminated, yet the image or the reticle to be out of focus. This happens to me quite frequently in precision rifle matches, depending on atmospheric conditions.
Here is a quick google article to explain it for you. Note they specifically explain not to confuse focus and parallax:
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/understanding-and-correcting-parallax/
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SomeOtherGuy
10-14-14, 10:37
Congratulations for more or less repeating what I said.
My 3-9x conquest says in the literature 100 yards, however the tech told me 75.
You are wrong in that "focus" eliminates parallax. It simply isn't true. Target image and reticle being on the same focal plane, as you identify, is where parallax is eliminated.
This occurs without consideration of the reticle or the image being in focus. It's quite common for the image to be clear and "in focus" yet parallax to be present. Conversely, it is common for parallax to be eliminated, yet the image or the reticle to be out of focus. This happens to me quite frequently in precision rifle matches, depending on atmospheric conditions.
Here is a quick google article to explain it for you. Note they specifically explain not to confuse focus and parallax:
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/understanding-and-correcting-parallax/
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Seriously, this kind of insulting and useless response? Coming from someone whose signature claims that M4C is becoming Arfcom? If it is, you are driving the bus.
Anyway, you either don't understand the subject or you can't write in a way to make yourself understood. You are really good at insulting everyone else though. The underside of my Conquest is marked as having parallax set at 300 yards. Perhaps yours is different, but it's marked on the scope itself.
Seriously, this kind of insulting and useless response? Coming from someone whose signature claims that M4C is becoming Arfcom? If it is, you are driving the bus.
Anyway, you either don't understand the subject or you can't write in a way to make yourself understood. You are really good at insulting everyone else though. The underside of my Conquest is marked as having parallax set at 300 yards. Perhaps yours is different, but it's marked on the scope itself.
What insult did I provide? You quoted me, basically said the same thing as me, then told me I was wrong.
I didn't say your conquest isn't set to 300. I simply said what mine is according to the literature, and that the rep that repaired it said it was wrong.
Now you tell me I don't understand the subject. Please, source me to credible information that says focus and parallax elimination are synonymous. I've found eliminated parallax time and time again with out of focus images.
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kelly neal
10-14-14, 14:29
1 MOA dot. Way better glass than an Eotech. Tactile adjustment knob like an Aimpoint. Soon to be sprung on the world.
1 MOA dot. Way better glass than an Eotech. Tactile adjustment knob like an Aimpoint. Soon to be sprung on the world.
I am intrigued. Etched glass reticle?
Biggest advantage I see to the etched would be it works with the power off.
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SomeOtherGuy
10-14-14, 20:31
Dude read the thread.
And reticle in focus has NOTHING to so with parallax.
Parallax explained. I think US Optics knows what they're doing, as does the owner of SWFA.
http://www.6mmbr.com/parallax.html
http://www.opticstalk.com/what-exactly-is-parallax-anyway_topic5026.html
Also the CTD blog, which I didn't initially bother to look at given who CTD is, but you cited it, I finally looked, and my oh my its diagrams actually talk about FOCUS being an issue affecting parallax. Oh my yes.
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/understanding-and-correcting-parallax/
I quote: "Parallax describes a situation where the focal plane of the object in the scope is offset from the reticle. If you have parallax, you have an optical illusion that must be corrected. Parallax should not be confused with focus. Parallax compensation changes neither the focus of the reticle nor the focus of the image; it simply moves the planes at which these two objects are in focus so that they share the same plane (are coindicent)."
By the way, part of their statement is incorrect, as the typical methods of parallax compensation do in fact change the focus of the target image.
If you're interested in Aimpoints or other red dot sights, here's the best explanation I've seen, which includes a discussion of actual parallax errors for certain RDS models:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm
1 MOA dot. Way better glass than an Eotech. Tactile adjustment knob like an Aimpoint. Soon to be sprung on the world.
Wishing or fact?
Parallax explained. I think US Optics knows what they're doing, as does the owner of SWFA.
http://www.6mmbr.com/parallax.html
http://www.opticstalk.com/what-exactly-is-parallax-anyway_topic5026.html
Also the CTD blog, which I didn't initially bother to look at given who CTD is, but you cited it, I finally looked, and my oh my its diagrams actually talk about FOCUS being an issue affecting parallax. Oh my yes.
http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/understanding-and-correcting-parallax/
I quote: "Parallax describes a situation where the focal plane of the object in the scope is offset from the reticle. If you have parallax, you have an optical illusion that must be corrected. Parallax should not be confused with focus. Parallax compensation changes neither the focus of the reticle nor the focus of the image; it simply moves the planes at which these two objects are in focus so that they share the same plane (are coindicent)."
By the way, part of their statement is incorrect, as the typical methods of parallax compensation do in fact change the focus of the target image.
If you're interested in Aimpoints or other red dot sights, here's the best explanation I've seen, which includes a discussion of actual parallax errors for certain RDS models:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm
Again none of those say the reticle, image, and focus are mutually exclusive.
Just because the image is on the same focal plane, does not mean the image will be "in focus".
It's a misnomer, no matter who says it, to say the image is in focus and therefore parallax has been eliminated. The only way to tell if parallax is eliminated is to so a bob-test and observe whether or not the reticles moves in relation to the target or not. It matters not it the image is blurry, fuzzy, or whatever you want to call "out of focus".
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"• With some other brands of scopes we've tested it is difficult to achieve maximum target sharpness with near-zero parallax. There are many reasons for this, including sloppy production tolerances."
Lol there ya go, from US Optics in your own source.
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KG_mauserman
10-18-14, 21:42
Wishing or fact?
Something tells me Kelly Neal might know a thing or two about this optic.
Something tells me Kelly Neal might know a thing or two about this optic.
I dont know who they are and they offer no clues on profile. Help me out?
Btw...etched reticle...or no?
kelly neal
10-19-14, 22:23
I'm on the Leupold shooting team so I know a little about what's going on. I dont have one but played with Jim Smith's version at FB3 Gun. That one had a 1 MOA dot which I liked. Whether or not that's what will be on the production version, I don't know but I hope so. Jim and Kyle L have been doing a lot of shooting with theirs and only have had good things to say.
I'm on the Leupold shooting team so I know a little about what's going on. I dont have one but played with Jim Smith's version at FB3 Gun. That one had a 1 MOA dot which I liked. Whether or not that's what will be on the production version, I don't know but I hope so. Jim and Kyle L have been doing a lot of shooting with theirs and only have had good things to say.
Thanks! Wasn't trying to call you out. I just didn't know why you would know. Cleared it up!
Is it cr123 powered?
Is the reticle etched?
Will it fit any existing quality qd mounts or are any in the works from the usual suspects?
sinlessorrow
10-21-14, 20:16
It would be pure tits if it had an etched reticle for those with astigmatism.
Agreed. Leupold makes good stuff, so heres hoping.
Thanks! Wasn't trying to call you out. I just didn't know why you would know. Cleared it up!
Is it cr123 powered?
Is the reticle etched?
Will it fit any existing quality qd mounts or are any in the works from the usual suspects?
Just talked to my rep today, etched reticle, cr123 powered. Not sure on the mounts.
I am more excited about the D-EVO, it's hard to explain what it is, but it allows you to add a 6x cmr reticle optic behind ANY rds/holo sight! It mounts behind your optic, the sight then periscopes to the right of the main sight. You use it by using the rds to find your target quickly then just let your pupil travel down to the 6x cmr reticle. There is no flipping a magnifier to the side, or twisting one off, just shoot normally then, to use the magnification, just let your eye focus on the magnified image!
I'll try to get pics in the a.m.
sinlessorrow
10-21-14, 21:47
Just talked to my rep today, etched reticle, cr123 powered. Not sure on the mounts.
I am more excited about the D-EVO, it's hard to explain what it is, but it allows you to add a 6x cmr reticle optic behind ANY rds/holo sight! It mounts behind your optic, the sight then periscopes to the right of the main sight. You use it by using the rds to find your target quickly then just let your pupil travel down to the 6x cmr reticle. There is no flipping a magnifier to the side, or twisting one off, just shoot normally then, to use the magnification, just let your eye focus on the magnified image!
I'll try to get pics in the a.m.
Etched reticle......on a red dot.....sign me up!!! I am getting one day one.
Etched reticle......on a red dot.....sign me up!!! I am getting one day one.
Me too. I'm curios about pricing more like the baby ACOGs or T1 pricing? I really like the idea of CR123 power too.
I won't be buying a t2 until I handle an lco!
sinlessorrow
10-22-14, 01:14
I won't be buying a t2 until I handle an lco!
No way, an etched reticle red dot running on a CR123 has been my dream optic, and it is coming from a quality manuf unlike eotech.
No way, an etched reticle red dot running on a CR123 has been my dream optic, and it is coming from a quality manuf unlike eotech.
What mount will it use...matters to me. Also, never had an eotech issue. Everyone I know who kills people for a living uses one, as well. The LCO is unproven. It's an unknown. I want to handle it and watch others first.
1 MOA dot. Way better glass than an Eotech. Tactile adjustment knob like an Aimpoint. Soon to be sprung on the world.
How soon Kelly, and do you know the price?
Sorry guys, had a really busy day. The photos that I have didn't turn out. The price point on this is supposed to be around $799 MSRP, and for the D-EVO, it will be around $1399. I am really excited for these, however Leupold is not releasing a time line yet...
The reticle is hard to describe, but it looks like this:
29182
Its a shitty representation, but you get the idea.
sinlessorrow
10-22-14, 22:48
Sorry guys, had a really busy day. The photos that I have didn't turn out. The price point on this is supposed to be around $799 MSRP, and for the D-EVO, it will be around $1399. I am really excited for these, however Leupold is not releasing a time line yet...
The reticle is hard to describe, but it looks like this:
29182
Its a shitty representation, but you get the idea.
Oddly enough I like that, do you know the size of that inner circle, small enough and it could be a great optic. Something like a 3moa circle would work well at reflex optic ranges. MSRP is also at a good point, i wish they had a timeline.
Oddly enough I like that, do you know the size of that inner circle, small enough and it could be a great optic. Something like a 3moa circle would work well at reflex optic ranges. MSRP is also at a good point, i wish they had a timeline.
I didn't think of that, but yeah, if the doughnut is 3 MOA, it could work well, but I really would prefer to see a dot in it like Mr. Kelly noted in a prior post...
sinlessorrow
10-22-14, 23:58
I didn't think of that, but yeah, if the doughnut is 3 MOA, it could work well, but I really would prefer to see a dot in it like Mr. Kelly noted in a prior post...
It would be cool if the dot was similar to their VX-R lines, where when the battery is on it is there but if it failed or went off you still have a useable donut.
It would be cool if the dot was similar to their VX-R lines, where when the battery is on it is there but if it failed or went off you still have a useable donut.
The reticle is etched, it is always visible regardless of battery condition.
I should also point out that they plan to have several reticle options, including a dot.
I should also point out that they plan to have several reticle options, including a dot.
What about mounts? Is it QD? Have a "common base" with some other optic that already has QD mounts (say, ACOG mount compatible base, or something)? Is it lower 1/3, or absolute, from Leupold?
sinlessorrow
10-23-14, 08:40
The reticle is etched, it is always visible regardless of battery condition.
That's why i am so excited about it. An etched reticle reflex sight, just need it to be released.
Out of all the releases and wants, year after year...this has me the most pumped. That's how bad it sucks to use RDS with astigmatism... Thanks for the info.
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This really does sound interesting. I wonder how it will hold up durability wise.
What does the dot look like you guys? Mine looks like an oval and with a star around it.
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sinlessorrow
10-23-14, 09:31
What does the dot look like you guys? Mine looks like an oval and with a star around it.
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Etched reticles do not get distorted due to astigmatisms.
As for durability, leupold is no new comer and they have a history is making durable optics in their variable line. Given its price point being on par with aimpoints I would imagine they are making it very durable.
Etched reticles do not get distorted due to astigmatisms.
As for durability, leupold is no new comer and they have a history is making durable optics in their variable line. Given its price point being on par with aimpoints I would imagine they are making it very durable.
I'm aware of that. I'm asking about RDS/reflex sights.
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It's ranges from red splatter (eotech) to grapes on the vine (any above 2moa) to ball of dots but at least it's roundish (2moa aimpoint)
1-4s have been a blessing in that respect.
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sinlessorrow
10-23-14, 09:43
I'm aware of that. I'm asking about RDS/reflex sights.
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I know, the LCO has a etched reticle so it will be a distortion free reflex sight. thats why i am su pumped about this optic. even wuth my glasseS aimpoints are commets and eotechs are spiders.
I know, the LCO has a etched reticle so it will be a distortion free reflex sight. thats why i am su pumped about this optic. even wuth my glasseS aimpoints are commets and eotechs are spiders.
There we go that's what I was asking. Mine looks like a big star but it doesn't bother me
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sinlessorrow
10-23-14, 10:41
There we go that's what I was asking. Mine looks like a big star but it doesn't bother me
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Lol hadnt had my morning cup o joe yet. Nothing is every right till I have it.
Big question, what about the eye relief? IIRC the baby ACOGs have limited eye relief which is one of the reasons I could never get too excited about them (That and the price.). The unlimited eye relief of a RDS is a major benefit.
Don't red dots have unlimited eye relief? Therefore the new Leupold red dot should also have unlimited eye relief.
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teutonicpolymer
10-23-14, 22:45
Yes they do
I'm betting this etched reticle LCO will have eye-relief.
It might be very forgiving, but this seems to be an upgraded leupold prismatic to me (with a protective shroud).
I'm definitely going to be saving for something--this or a T2.
I'm betting this etched reticle LCO will have eye-relief.
It might be very forgiving, but this seems to be an upgraded leupold prismatic to me (with a protective shroud).
I'm definitely going to be saving for something--this or a T2.
If there is no magnification I don't see why, but I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
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An etched reticle won't "float" so you'd either have to have your head in the EXACT same spot or it will have eye-relief/eye- box I think. Unless they've invented something new. For that price, I'd hope so.
But I think it's just a new prismatic.
Singlestack Wonder
10-25-14, 14:54
An etched reticle won't "float" so you'd either have to have your head in the EXACT same spot or it will have eye-relief/eye- box I think. Unless they've invented something new. For that price, I'd hope so.
But I think it's just a new prismatic.
This......
You'll get parallax if your head is not in the same spot, which was discussed earlier. Technically, even if it's floating, some degree of parallax still exists, though less so than a magnified scope. If there is a tight eyebox and narrow eye-relief, it would make the scope almost silly IMO because you're losing the speed of 1x RDS, and have all the drawbacks of a magnified scope.
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Okay. Met up with Mr. Lamb today at a store visit.
I got to see the mystery red dot in question. It is basically an Aimpoint dot inside a nice square eotech window. It is shorter than an EXPS, seems super rugged, 10-12 ounces (a guess). 1.2-1.5MOA (guess), goes from perfect dot to as bright as anything.
It does NOT have an etched reticle..... (But looked great with my astigmatism.)
The etched reticle sight is the OTHER new sight. I won't say anything out of respect for Mr. Lamb (he asked for no pictures, but I assume he wouldn't want me saying too much about it), except to say the etched reticle sight works with the red dot (or other red dots). It is not a "magnifier" per se, but more like an innovative magnified type scope, and it's amazing. Both are gonna be at SHOT 2015.
UPDATE: I see someone mentioned it on page 3--yeah, it's a 6X, BUT you don't have to move your head at all to see it....you look through the red dot, THEN you just glance down and if you're eye relief is right (and it seemed to have short eye-relief), you see through the 6X. Since the optic is mounted over the ejection port off to the side, the bullet drop compensator actually CURVES to the side as it goes down. Very innovative--though it will be pricey. You'll also be able to mount a delta point PRO on top of it.
---
NOTE: I was impressed. I'm saving starting today, but probably can't afford it until the tax return comes in.
Glad to hear this new info. Thanks for the update.
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Added more since someone had already mentioned the 6X, which I hadn't even heard of before today.
I do think the red dot is nice, but a bit heavy. People who like square Eotech like windows will like it.
Well, that seals the deal for me. Ordering a T2. Screw that. "Unproven Eotech clone" is kindof how I feel about it, now, since it offers nothing new. The 6X seems interesting, though.
I think it's like a shorter EOtech, not as wide, with better glass, no giant hood blocking the FOV, and inside is a slightly better than t-1 dot (smaller and more crisp for me), with I'm betting MUCH longer battery life on a usable setting (CR123s have a LOT MORE JUICE THAN a coin battery), and it has auto-off and sensor activation, so one battery will go dead from age before it runs out (I'd think batteries that won't power flashlights will probably still work in it for a year or so)...the dial is low on the left side so easy to adjust with support hand, and it spin-clicks freely backwards and forwards with no stop.
The ONLY thing I know the T2 has on it is weight. Kyle mentioned making it with a magnesium alloy, but that would send it into the T2 price range or higher....I got the feeling it was a $550-650 street price.
I'm leaning T-2 BUT if this thing can get down to 8-9 ounces and costs the same, I'd choose it over the T-2/T1 style for the bigger, clear window, which is more like a HUD than either the EO or AP.
I love the 6X but that thing will probably cost $1000 or so...for my purposes, I doubt I can justify it when I can just get a 3-3.5X on a QD. But for those shooting short AND long distances, it seems great.
So, are you saying the 6x is like an add-on module for the new red dot?
No, it's totally stand alone.
It will "look around" any red dot. It's glass is LOW--a circle with the top 10 to 2 o'clock cut straight across--this glass leads to a square-ish shape (like a DBAL) that has an arm that extends angled out to the right, with a lens that then protrudes to the front (hanging off to the side--and going forward up to like 3/5ths of the way up the ejection port...but above it, and it has a shield that protects the lens from port-debris).
Kyle requested "no photos" of the red dot (BUT maybe he meant this too)--if this seems like too descriptive and a betrayal of his trust, then please delete this--or tell me to do so. Someone with access said they would get a pic up on page 3, so I assume pics of this unit (which I think they called the D-Evo) are available somewhere.
No, it's totally stand alone.
It will "look around" any red dot. It's glass is LOW--a circle with the top 10 to 2 o'clock cut straight across--this glass leads to a square-ish shape (like a DBAL) that has an arm that extends angled out to the right, with a lens that then protrudes to the front (hanging off to the side--and going forward up to like 3/5ths of the way up the ejection port...but above it, and it has a shield that protects the lens from port-debris).
Kyle requested "no photos" of the red dot (BUT maybe he meant this too)--if this seems like too descriptive and a betrayal of his trust, then please delete this--or tell me to do so. Someone with access said they would get a pic up on page 3, so I assume pics of this unit (which I think they called the D-Evo) are available somewhere.
I googled "D-Evo" and could not find any photos, but for whatever reason something else brand new turned up in that search: http://www.romeotangobravo.net/2014/10/razar-adaptive-zoom-rifle-scope-game.html
Sounds interesting using a combo like this.
teutonicpolymer
10-30-14, 19:21
Etched reticles do not get distorted due to astigmatisms.
As for durability, leupold is no new comer and they have a history is making durable optics in their variable line. Given its price point being on par with aimpoints I would imagine they are making it very durable.
Actually they do, it is likely they just get noticed less
teutonicpolymer
10-30-14, 19:53
An etched reticle won't "float" so you'd either have to have your head in the EXACT same spot or it will have eye-relief/eye- box I think. Unless they've invented something new. For that price, I'd hope so.
But I think it's just a new prismatic.
The eye relief and eye box aren't products of the etched reticle, it is more a by product of having the objective as the aperture stop
True, but have you ever seen an etched reticle optic that can "float" and be on target like a red dot? I assume it hasn't been done because it can't be done.
Being "etched" means it is "locked" in place (normally close to the center) and can only be moved a tiny bit manually for sighting it in. An etched reticle on a piece of glass that floats doesn't sound durable, but someday they might figure it out.
I've been under the assumption an etched reticle requires an erector tube, thus requiring an additional set of lenses, thus an eyebox to provide a real image, thus creating eye relief.
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gamewarden
11-19-14, 22:29
Any new news?
patriot_man
11-23-14, 03:22
Double post
patriot_man
11-23-14, 03:24
So this D-EVO... will it be able to replace traditional variable glass?
Is it meant to compete w/ reflex sight + magnifier setups or variable optic set-ups?
Basically boils down to should I wait for this or get a Mark 6 1-6x lol
I've been hoping for some time that someone would come up with a 1X and 6X built into the same housing that would give you a 1X view and a 6X view side by side. With the glass literally side by side like a bi-focal lens in eye glasses. Guess I'll have to wait for that.
The LCO sounds interesting, but I'll probably get a T2 for the current lightweight .308 project and suffer with my Aimpoint magnifier if I need some magnification. The D-EVO sounds interesting but a little clunky to me, I'll wait until it is fully vetted.
Singlestack Wonder
11-24-14, 13:47
No, it's totally stand alone.
It will "look around" any red dot. It's glass is LOW--a circle with the top 10 to 2 o'clock cut straight across--this glass leads to a square-ish shape (like a DBAL) that has an arm that extends angled out to the right, with a lens that then protrudes to the front (hanging off to the side--and going forward up to like 3/5ths of the way up the ejection port...but above it, and it has a shield that protects the lens from port-debris).
Kyle requested "no photos" of the red dot (BUT maybe he meant this too)--if this seems like too descriptive and a betrayal of his trust, then please delete this--or tell me to do so. Someone with access said they would get a pic up on page 3, so I assume pics of this unit (which I think they called the D-Evo) are available somewhere.
Hopefully it won't be a re-hash of this....
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/news/2011/01/15/kruger-revamps-dual-tactical-sight-for-the-shot-show.aspx
gamewarden
11-25-14, 09:35
Found this pic of the D-EVO and LCO paired together.
29918
gamewarden
12-05-14, 23:48
Nothing more on the D-EVO...?
evolDiesel
12-29-14, 11:54
Update:
30714
LCO beat D-EVO in terms of fantasy football.
The D-Evo is starting to pop up as an out of stock item on a few online retailers. Looks like Leupold part number for the package with mount is 120556.
Pretty excited about this. An immediate transition from a RDS to a 6X could certainly change things up. Here's wishing Leupold well on it.
What caught my attention was
"MSRP: $3,730.68
Price: $2,037.99"
The cheapest I saw it was $1950.
Perhaps this is for the new red dot AND 6X d-evo as a package, and not just the 6x.
Unless I win one, I'll be stuck with 3X flip to sides evidently.
That's some serious cash. Leupold has been being out more top tier products lately. Apparently the Mark4 price/quality is a thing of the past. I'm glad to see them getting off their laurels.
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evolDiesel
12-29-14, 14:26
$1,257 here
http://www.cromwellsfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=32&product_id=95954
$1,257 here
http://www.cromwellsfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=32&product_id=95954
Different part number, I wonder if that doesn't come with the red dot as others suggested. That means about 700 + for the red dot if separate.
Should be an interesting shot show this year.
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evolDiesel
12-29-14, 15:04
Add a TRS for just $100 (or any number of $100-$200 red dot sights):
https://www.google.com/search?q=bushnell+trs+1x25mm+red+dot&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=bushnell+trs+1x25mm+red+dot&tbm=shop
Different part number, I wonder if that doesn't come with the red dot as others suggested. That means about 700 + for the red dot if separate.
My guess as well. I see similar pricing at a few sites for that part number. It does say "MT" on them, so maybe the 6X optic with mount will be 1200 +/-?
If it really works, I'm in.
Until Aimpoint comes out with an M4 that switches between 1X and 4X. I can dream anyway....
Add a TRS for just $100 (or any number of $100-$200 red dot sights):
https://www.google.com/search?q=bushnell+trs+1x25mm+red+dot&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=bushnell+trs+1x25mm+red+dot&tbm=shop
Or perhaps if you're spending 1200+/- for the 6X optic, one might kick in for a different RDS...... But to each his own.
Failure2Stop
12-29-14, 16:34
There are some trade-offs, but the utility of the D-EVO is better than a good 1-6x for most users. More will be apparent when it is officially unveiled.
sinlessorrow
12-29-14, 16:55
There are some trade-offs, but the utility of the D-EVO is better than a good 1-6x for most users. More will be apparent when it is officially unveiled.
It sounds awesome, but is it really $2,000 for just the 6x?
Failure2Stop
12-29-14, 17:17
It sounds awesome, but is it really $2,000 for just the 6x?
I can't confirm pricing, sorry man.
evolDiesel
12-29-14, 18:23
It sounds awesome, but is it really $2,000 for just the 6x?
Cromwell's has them for $1,257
http://www.cromwellsfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=32&product_id=95954
Cromwell's has them for $1,257
http://www.cromwellsfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=32&product_id=95954
I have this weird feeling of deja vu.
evolDiesel
12-29-14, 18:53
I have this weird feeling of deja vu.
sinlessorrow was asking if it's $2K. The google machine shows you can have it for $1,257.
Singlestack Wonder
12-30-14, 11:11
There are some trade-offs, but the utility of the D-EVO is better than a good 1-6x for most users. More will be apparent when it is officially unveiled.
Interesting comment. Over the years a lot of comments about the Elcan Spectre related to how having a 1 and 4 (or 1 and 6) only optic was limiting as there were instances when an in-between magnification would be required. With the D-EVO duplicating that functionality, will the consensus change since it's a Leupold vs. Elcan (note: individuals had other issues with Elcan but I am referring only to the magnification function).
Failure2Stop
12-30-14, 11:18
Interesting comment. Over the years a lot of comments about the Elcan Spectre related to how having a 1 and 4 (or 1 and 6) only optic was limiting as there were instances when an in-between magnification would be required. With the D-EVO duplicating that functionality, will the consensus change since it's a Leupold vs. Elcan (note: individuals had other issues with Elcan but I am referring only to the magnification function).
In competition there are times that midrange magnification is desirable, though the D-EVO is not really being driven in that direction. As a combat optic, the immediate transition between 1x and 6x outweighs and mitigates the 2x-4x option.
evolDiesel
12-30-14, 12:01
Should be an interesting shot show this year.
Yessir.
Maybe it's because I'm tired, but I'm just not understanding how this DEVO works. It seems like a 6X piggybacking on a RDS, except the 6X is awkwardly positioned to the side and in front of the RDS and the RDS is used as the primary optic instead of the 6X. Super weird and pain-in-the-ass-but-works-well-only-on-my-XBOX COD type images come to mind. I know F2S doesn't like junk gear, so I have to be missing something because it's not adding up :( I can't math right now.
evolDiesel
12-30-14, 12:13
Interesting comment. Over the years a lot of comments about the Elcan Spectre related to how having a 1 and 4 (or 1 and 6) only optic was limiting as there were instances when an in-between magnification would be required. With the D-EVO duplicating that functionality, will the consensus change since it's a Leupold vs. Elcan (note: individuals had other issues with Elcan but I am referring only to the magnification function).
Its difficult to envision every application and I'm sure there will be those where a user wishes they had a 1&3, 1&4, 1&8.. etc., but the "magic" lies in how uninvolved the user is in transitioning between the two. To get all those other combinations you go back to a user manipulating something to adjust magnification. That brings you back to something like a Mark 6 1-6 or CQBSS. There's also the Leupold DAGR system [commercial version of ECOS-O] contracted by the Crane Division of U.S. Naval Surface Warfare Center where you have a Mark 6 3-18 paired with an Aimpoint Micro T1. This is quite a bit heavier, bigger, more expensive and once again you manipulate a power selector and potentially break cheek weld depending on where you have the T1 clocked around the Mark 6 maintube. That said... you can hit targets at twice the distance but still engage close up.
evolDiesel
12-30-14, 12:28
Maybe it's because I'm tired, but I'm just not understanding how this DEVO works. It seems like a 6X piggybacking on a RDS, except the 6X is awkwardly positioned to the side and in front of the RDS and the RDS is used as the primary optic instead of the 6X. Super weird and pain-in-the-ass-but-works-well-only-on-my-XBOX COD type images come to mind. I know F2S doesn't like junk gear, so I have to be missing something because it's not adding up :( I can't math right now.
Hopefully it will be out there enough after SHOT that guys will be able to understand what it does.
Failure2Stop
12-30-14, 14:24
Maybe it's because I'm tired, but I'm just not understanding how this DEVO works. It seems like a 6X piggybacking on a RDS, except the 6X is awkwardly positioned to the side and in front of the RDS and the RDS is used as the primary optic instead of the 6X. Super weird and pain-in-the-ass-but-works-well-only-on-my-XBOX COD type images come to mind. I know F2S doesn't like junk gear, so I have to be missing something because it's not adding up :( I can't math right now.
The game changer is that the user does nothing other than a slight shift of the eye down to be at 6x.
When properly positioned, it is virtually seamless.
The game changer is that the user does nothing other than a slight shift of the eye down to be at 6x.
When properly positioned, it is virtually seamless.
Sounds amazing. If you like it that well I'm pretty much sold.
Nothing to stop Leupold from making a 4X version either if the market wanted it.
Singlestack Wonder
12-30-14, 15:07
The game changer is that the user does nothing other than a slight shift of the eye down to be at 6x.
When properly positioned, it is virtually seamless.
Not unlike a piggy backed RDS on a higher power scope (i.e. Leupold MK6 3-18 with Aimpoint T1), but perhaps with less eye movement?
Failure2Stop
12-30-14, 15:10
Sounds amazing. If you like it that well I'm pretty much sold.
Definitely try it yourself before taking the plunge.
I will probably be using one in some carbine competitions to round out experience and to see how much the offset affects application.
The biggest issue is that it is the first of its kind, so other than the initial smell test, I can't testify to full spectrum use yet.
One thing that I need to see is integration with inline and worn NV. Not much of a worry for most, significant to some. May induce some paradigm shifts, what once was done may now be worse, or potentially better. I can think of a few ways that having dual optics would be an advantage for inline devices along with other enablers. However, if the solution is approached from a conventional approach, there are immediately apparent issues. Technology advances that were solutions to non-existent questions may now have found a home, though they may still need some time for refinement.
Only experience and comparison will tell the tale in the end.
Failure2Stop
12-30-14, 15:18
Not unlike a piggy backed RDS on a higher power scope (i.e. Leupold MK6 3-18 with Aimpoint T1), but perhaps with less eye movement?
Those suffer from not just a significant change in head/eye position for use, but also a cheek-weld and immediate presentation line of sight decision under high stress. The D-EVO requires zero head movement, and the image from the magnified optic sits at about where lower 1/3 cowitnessed sights would be, but without needing to move lower.
evolDiesel
12-30-14, 16:15
I'm VERY anxious to see people using it and to learn from those applications and integrations with other equipment.
The game changer is that the user does nothing other than a slight shift of the eye down to be at 6x.
When properly positioned, it is virtually seamless.
So the D-EVO has its own reticle/adjustments/etc. and can be used with any RDS, it's not "using" the RDS to do anything, it is its own thing, take the RDS off and chunk it if you like. Am I understanding? If so, how does it do this without smashing your face into the stock while still allowing use of the RDS?
It sits behind any RDS (or the Deltapoint Pro can mount ON TOP of it). It "looks" around the RED DOT (to the right). So you just look through your red dot, and when you see something far away, you glance down into the eyepiece (which is a circle with the top 15% flattened) and what you were looking at is now at 6X assuming your within the eye-box. It seemed to have about the same eye-relief and eye-box as a 4X acog to me...took some getting used to.
For me, I like the versatility, but since I'm mainly shooting inside of 200Y, a 3X flip to side on a QD mount is more up my alley.
It sits behind any RDS (or the Deltapoint Pro can mount ON TOP of it). It "looks" around the RED DOT (to the right). So you just look through your red dot, and when you see something far away, you glance down into the eyepiece (which is a circle with the top 15% flattened) and what you were looking at is now at 6X assuming your within the eye-box. It seemed to have about the same eye-relief and eye-box as a 4X acog to me...took some getting used to.
For me, I like the versatility, but since I'm mainly shooting inside of 200Y, a 3X flip to side on a QD mount is more up my alley.
Interesting! How's it mount? QD? Bolt-on? Uses existing mount of some sort? BUIS look over it or not?
Definitely try it yourself before taking the plunge.
Of course, I just meant that your positive comments carry a lot of weight.....
I will probably be using one in some carbine competitions to round out experience and to see how much the offset affects application.
The biggest issue is that it is the first of its kind, so other than the initial smell test, I can't testify to full spectrum use yet.
One thing that I need to see is integration with inline and worn NV. Not much of a worry for most, significant to some. May induce some paradigm shifts, what once was done may now be worse, or potentially better. I can think of a few ways that having dual optics would be an advantage for inline devices along with other enablers. However, if the solution is approached from a conventional approach, there are immediately apparent issues. Technology advances that were solutions to non-existent questions may now have found a home, though they may still need some time for refinement.
Only experience and comparison will tell the tale in the end
Yeah, new technology often becomes surpassed quite quickly, but it's exciting to see something I've imagined in my head as a concept, start to become a reality.
gamewarden
01-01-15, 10:08
Any idea of weight when compared to a Mark 6 1-6 with mount. I realize weight will vary based on what RDS is selected...just looking for a ball park.
In competition there are times that midrange magnification is desirable, though the D-EVO is not really being driven in that direction. As a combat optic, the immediate transition between 1x and 6x outweighs and mitigates the 2x-4x option.
Failure2Stop, my limited experience (compared to yours anyway) is the only time I put my 1-6 in that 2x-4x range is when I anticipate I may have both close/distant targets but not the time to switch between magnifications. I find myself going to 2.5x because I'm in an open area but want to be able to quickly shoot a close target if it presents itself. If I understand this right, the D-EVO removes THAT concern since there is no action or movement needed to switch between 1x and 6x. Is my thinking correct and in that light, do you still believe an intermediate magnification is useful for other reasons? Might a 4x D-EVO be preferred in a controlled (competition?) environment where you know you won't see targets over 200 meters away? Thanks in advance for your response.
evolDiesel
01-07-15, 11:45
Link removed.
Is that thing as huge as it looks?
evolDiesel
01-07-15, 11:58
Is that thing as huge as it looks?
That's what she said.
"What you are seeing is a small 6 power optic with..."
It's an optical illusion with the optics so close to the camera and the dude's crotch so far back in the frame.
It's like a DBAL with a Surefire 6P flashlight bezel on the side of it. Not too big, but then, not small. The one I looked through wasn't acog clear/bright, but it was as good as most sub-$1K scopes I've looked through.
Singlestack Wonder
01-07-15, 17:46
I was expecting a marvel in optical engineering with the LCO......looks like an offset ACOG. Unless I'm missing something, the only thing different here is that the magnified optic is offset vs. the RDS. They did manage to reduce the size of the 6x optic.
It's an optical illusion with the optics so close to the camera and the dude's crotch so far back in the frame.
That's unfortunate, I usually measure things by comparing them with dudes' crotches.
steyrman13
01-07-15, 18:48
I was expecting a marvel in optical engineering with the LCO......looks like an offset ACOG. Unless I'm missing something, the only thing different here is that the magnified optic is offset vs. the RDS. They did manage to reduce the size of the 6x optic.
I believe you are. Read back through the thread, as it is explained that you do not have to move your head to use either. The 6x optic is offset, but the exit pupil/ocular lens is below the deltapoint red dot. It is most likely using prisms or mirrors to allow this. but both optics as far as the eye is concerned are inline with the bore like a traditional scope.
evolDiesel
01-07-15, 19:03
Unless I'm missing something, the only thing different here is that the magnified optic is offset vs. the RDS.
I think there will be significant clarity in 2 weeks.
The comparisons to ACOG are especially hard to swallow. Have you guys looked through an ACOG? It's a battery of optical sin mounted to a carbine.
Sorry if I missed this but what is the expected price?
Singlestack Wonder
01-07-15, 22:48
I believe you are. Read back through the thread, as it is explained that you do not have to move your head to use either. The 6x optic is offset, but the exit pupil/ocular lens is below the deltapoint red dot. It is most likely using prisms or mirrors to allow this. but both optics as far as the eye is concerned are inline with the bore like a traditional scope.
Looking forward to see whether or not the concept and hardware perform as promised.
evolDiesel
01-09-15, 18:08
Edit.
evolDiesel
01-11-15, 10:31
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IMG_9705.jpg
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/01/05/ads-incs-sales-team-trains-with-leupold-and-knights/
Looks like it will indeed work behind any red dot. Anybody know which one that is in front? I was going to say micro T but the illumination knob looks too big. Unless it's another new Leupy we haven't heard of yet.
gamewarden
01-11-15, 11:28
It's an Aimpoint micro...it just looks big because it has the KAC battery cover on it.
The eye piece looks very low.
evolDiesel
01-11-15, 12:18
Micro T2
Heres the skinny for you:
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/13/21st-century-bifocals-for-your-carbine-the-leupold-d-evo-wlco/
31032
Intriguing
http://2vyl0i2veiai1uu9bv3ai7wj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2015/01/DEVO_LCO_RearView_Reticles.jpg
Heres the skinny for you:
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/13/21st-century-bifocals-for-your-carbine-the-leupold-d-evo-wlco/
31032
Combined MSRP of $3k... Wow.
Curious to see if somebody will have a better mounting system in the future, hate thumbscrews. I like the idea of the D-EVO and would like to try it paired with a T-2. I like the window shape and size of the LCO paired with the D-EVO, but the constant on ability with the Aimpoint will probably keep me from trying.
steyrman13
01-13-15, 16:27
Intriguing
http://2vyl0i2veiai1uu9bv3ai7wj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2015/01/DEVO_LCO_RearView_Reticles.jpg
What about shooting lefty? it looks like it would obscure your SA vision
From a tech stand point it's pretty cool but from a design stand point I wish it was something more along the lines of miniaturized Elcan.
Singlestack Wonder
01-13-15, 16:40
Agreed...technical innovation yes...execution questionable (at least at first glance). With the magnified optic at the side, although the drop is calculated into the reticle, the side offset adds another dimension to distance calculations......unless there is a built in computing function to accommodate for that ;-)
evolDiesel
01-13-15, 16:44
the side offset adds another dimension to distance calculations......unless there is a built in computing function to accommodate for that
How would the side offset affect distance calculations?
Agreed...technical innovation yes...execution questionable (at least at first glance). With the magnified optic at the side, although the drop is calculated into the reticle, the side offset adds another dimension to distance calculations......unless there is a built in computing function to accommodate for that ;-)
This was my question as well. With the objective of the magnified optic appearing to be offset to the right, are you constantly having to compute and hold for offset. In the image the pic in the RDS and magnified are identical. I'm baffled how that works when you're not at your zero range.
Singlestack Wonder
01-13-15, 17:47
How would the side offset affect distance calculations?
For example, if the optic was zero'ed at 50 meters, with the magnified optic on the right side of the rifle, at 100 meters, the POI would be left of the barrel center line. When optics are mounted in line with the barrel bore, lateral travel is not considered (leaving wind out of the discussion) and only bullet drop is important to POI. When considering long shots with the LCO, drop AND side offset need to be considered to determine POI. This is assuming that the LCO does not automatically calculate for this (which would be difficult without sophisticated electronics re-positioning the reticle).
Why can't the offset be taken into account via the physical placement of the internal mirrors/lenses or whatever it uses themselves? Adding a lot of whizz bang fancy electronics seems improbable no?
gamewarden
01-13-15, 18:10
Couldn't it be calibrated into the reticle since the offset is fixed...? It is a BDC reticle... The vertical component would only be off on uppers like HK and POF...?
My advice is to buy the Vortex because it's cheaper than Leupold and has a better warranty.
Oops, sorry. Wrong thread.
In all seriousness, I think gamewarden is spot on. Increased distance means an increased hold (unless this thing defies gravity) and the offset could simply be compensated for with a built-in offset at each hold. Alternatively they could just sight in parallel to bullet path and be off a fixed amount at all distances like they do with IR lasers. Aim for the right eye and hit center? Can't wait to try one out. It's been a long time since we've seen anything new in optics that doesn't eat batteries and cost $17k.
evolDiesel
01-13-15, 19:56
Getting warmer...
Couldn't it be calibrated into the reticle since the offset is fixed...? It is a BDC reticle... The vertical component would only be off on uppers like HK and POF...?
Because of the increase is offset with range, throw in wind and it's impossible. With lasers, big deal because you aren't typically shooting so far. But with a six power, an offset becomes huge if you wish to maximize the usefulness of the magnification.
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Because of the increase is offset with range, throw in wind and it's impossible. With lasers, big deal because you aren't typically shooting so far. But with a six power, an offset becomes huge if you wish to maximize the usefulness of the magnification.
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Impossible? Gotta love ultimatums based on unsubstantiated information. I guess we'll know in a week what's impossible or not.
Seems to me reticles are specified in angles that increase with distance, just like the theoretical error due to the lens offset mentioned above. Whatever this thing really does, it looks like some thought went into it. I'll reserve judgement until I try one myself.
Impossible? Gotta love ultimatums based on unsubstantiated information. I guess we'll know in a week what's impossible or not.
Seems to me reticles are specified in angles that increase with distance, just like the theoretical error due to the lens offset mentioned above. Whatever this thing really does, it looks like some thought went into it. I'll reserve judgement until I try one myself.
Heh, I suggest you try long range shooting with the rifle rotates 90 degrees with 15 mph winds at 600 yards. While I used hyperbole, using an intersecting zero or offset zero isn't something advantageous in a combat optic.
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Failure2Stop
01-14-15, 08:15
Because of the increase is offset with range, throw in wind and it's impossible. With lasers, big deal because you aren't typically shooting so far. But with a six power, an offset becomes huge if you wish to maximize the usefulness of the magnification.
The reticle takes into account the position of the optic in relation to the bore.
I've shot it out to 600 meters, and it works.
One thing that really helps balance out the optic/BDC is the intention for it to be zeroed POA/POI at 200 meters.
***This is true for all of Leupold's CMR-W reticles***
gamewarden
01-14-15, 08:19
Exactly...I plug the same variable into my applied ballistics app and it calculates it. Gotta love math!
The reticle takes into account the position of the optic in relation to the bore.
I've shot it out to 600 meters, and it works.
One thing that really helps balance out the optic/BDC is the intention for it to be zeroed POA/POI at 200 meters.
***This is true for all of Leupold's CMR-W reticles***
Yeah would have to be that the reticle is offset from the mechanics. The hold parallel stuff like with a laser doesn't work too well past a few hundred yards.
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evolDiesel
01-14-15, 09:08
The hold parallel stuff like with a laser doesn't work too well past a few hundred yards.
I've shot it out to 600 meters, and it works.
I watched as a guy who had never shot past 100yds and never looked through one hit steel at 546yds (500M), in low light, repeatedly.
As F2S said, it's built into the reticle, accounting for offset., not holding the reticle offset.
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evolDiesel
01-14-15, 10:27
Dianna Liedorff
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10857326_10152742643517968_3538927857856279764_o.jpg
At Spartan Tactical Range
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10847457_10152742281127968_37253792852325574_o.jpg
GearScout
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/13/d-evo-wlco-combo/
Singlestack Wonder
01-14-15, 17:49
The reticle takes into account the position of the optic in relation to the bore.
I've shot it out to 600 meters, and it works.
One thing that really helps balance out the optic/BDC is the intention for it to be zeroed POA/POI at 200 meters.
***This is true for all of Leupold's CMR-W reticles***
Based on your comment, the reticle must auto adjust somehow. If it is zero'ed at 200 meters and shots are taken a 600 meters, with no adjustment, the shots would be off to the left (unless the holdovers were canted at a determined angle to the left which doesn't appear to be the case in the images). Can you confirm the auto adjustment?
Failure2Stop
01-14-15, 17:55
Based on your comment, the reticle must auto adjust somehow. If it is zero'ed at 200 meters and shots are taken a 600 meters, with no adjustment, the shots would be off to the left (unless the holdovers were canted at a determined angle to the left which doesn't appear to be the case in the images). Can you confirm the auto adjustment?
The drop indicator is canted to take into account a 200m coincidence of POA/POI, and the resulting right of horizontal effect.
Singlestack Wonder
01-14-15, 19:06
Thanks for the clarification.....after re-examining the reticle pics, it's now obvious.
philipeggo
01-14-15, 19:19
So to clarify, this is a red dot divided into two parts, one is a 1x and the second is a 6x? So in theory all I need to do is look down\lower and i'd instantly get a 6x view? Meh. Not amused. Seems like they are trying to invent cool stuff rather than stuff people actually want. It's neat but I'd rather a lever or switch like an elcan. Still im sure it will fill a niche for some.
Singlestack Wonder
01-14-15, 21:05
redundant......
I'd rather a lever or switch like an elcan
...Why?
PatrioticDisorder
01-15-15, 07:51
So to clarify, this is a red dot divided into two parts, one is a 1x and the second is a 6x? So in theory all I need to do is look down\lower and i'd instantly get a 6x view? Meh. Not amused. Seems like they are trying to invent cool stuff rather than stuff people actually want. It's neat but I'd rather a lever or switch like an elcan. Still im sure it will fill a niche for some.
If this optic is as good as it sounds on paper it's a complete "game changer." I predict they will sell as many units as they can produce. If it's that good it makes the Mk6 obsolete!
Failure2Stop
01-15-15, 08:32
So to clarify, this is a red dot divided into two parts, one is a 1x and the second is a 6x? So in theory all I need to do is look down\lower and i'd instantly get a 6x view? Meh. Not amused. Seems like they are trying to invent cool stuff rather than stuff people actually want. It's neat but I'd rather a lever or switch like an elcan. Still im sure it will fill a niche for some.
So, you would rather add a control instead of a simple glance?
philipeggo
01-15-15, 08:37
So, you would rather add a control instead of a simple glance?
Maybe. I haven't seen this in person but if the field of view is as small as it appears I'd rather a lever so that I could control when something went to magnified from non magnified. This seems like if you don't have a perfect cheekweld you'd have an awkward time transitioning from one to the other. Its also 3 grand. An elcan is cheaper and that's saying something. Granted this is all speculation. I'm not an optics expert so these observations are based on my limited knowledge.
gamewarden
01-15-15, 08:40
Leupold MSRP is always high...street price will be much less.
My critique is that it looks like it will get in the way for lefties, or anyone shooting support-side who is right-handed.
evolDiesel
01-15-15, 08:57
It's already gone up at this one location but its still only $1,499:
http://www.cromwellsfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=32&product_id=95954
If you are very cost sensitive you could buy the D-EVO and add any number of inexpensive red dot sights for $100-$200. In some cases, you may have an orphaned red dot just waiting for another rifle. I've been in this situation more than a few times.
I just want to point out that "$3K" is [I believe] the MSRP for both D-EVO+LCO, based on the limited information we are seeing pop up. I don't know if that's perfectly true or will remain static till you can purchase, but we should acknowledge you can get into this system for a lot less. I would even suggest much less than an Elcan. Aren't they $2K? You could get a D-EVO and a high quality red dot for that much. Once again, assuming current street prices hold.
I assume a standard BUIS used behind the D-EVO can be flipped up and used with the D-EVO in place? I mean, given that the RDS is viewable over the D-EVO?
I assume a standard BUIS used behind the D-EVO can be flipped up and used with the D-EVO in place? I mean, given that the RDS is viewable over the D-EVO?
I would think you'd want to put your rear sight in front of the D-EVO so you wouldn't block the eyepiece and could use it all the time. Granted your sight radius would be slightly less but at that point it's just a pointer for the more precise D-EVO. Not a bad SHTF concept actually.
To the comment on field of view, how could you get more FOV than an unobstructed view through a RDS at all times? It appears to be everything you could want all the time.
I would think you'd want to put your rear sight in front of the D-EVO so you wouldn't block the eyepiece and could use it all the time. Granted your sight radius would be slightly less but at that point it's just a pointer for the more precise D-EVO. Not a bad SHTF concept actually.
To the comment on field of view, how could you get more FOV than an unobstructed view through a RDS at all times? It appears to be everything you could want all the time.
The D-EVO is going to be blocking FOV shooting support side. Just look at it. It's hanging out like dog balls right in your FOV.
PatrioticDisorder
01-15-15, 10:29
It's already gone up at this one location but its still only $1,499:
http://www.cromwellsfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=32&product_id=95954
If you are very cost sensitive you could buy the D-EVO and add any number of inexpensive red dot sights for $100-$200. In some cases, you may have an orphaned red dot just waiting for another rifle. I've been in this situation more than a few times.
I just want to point out that "$3K" is [I believe] the MSRP for both D-EVO+LCO, based on the limited information we are seeing pop up. I don't know if that's perfectly true or will remain static till you can purchase, but we should acknowledge you can get into this system for a lot less. I would even suggest much less than an Elcan. Aren't they $2K? You could get a D-EVO and a high quality red dot for that much. Once again, assuming current street prices hold.
Seems there is still a lot of speculation about the LCO, but from what I've read it's supposedly like a 1x red dot with no real eyebox & yet still has etched glass in case of battery failure. Also speculated you could make the aiming point something other than a dot, like a chevron for instance. The combo of the LCO & D-EVO is what I'm looking forward to seeing the most, both optics are potentially huge advancement in optics.
The D-EVO is going to be blocking FOV shooting support side. Just look at it. It's hanging out like dog balls right in your FOV.
I have to admit I'm not an expert on dog balls in my FOV. I'll have to take you at your word on that.
Clearly flip to side magnifiers have found general acceptance, probably because they are beneficial and shooting both eyes open mitigates FOV (dog genitalia) issues. I don't see this product being any worse in that department and a whole lot better in most aspects. We'll see if the execution is as good as others are saying it is.
PatrioticDisorder
01-15-15, 15:34
http://youtu.be/unrdSQziegM
Looks like a no go for us lefties.
Looks like a no go for us lefties.
I was thinking the same thing but look what the EoTech magnifier manual says:
"The magnifier system can be configured to switch to the left or to the right based on shooting preference. Typically, right handed shooters prefer the mount to switch to the left and left handed shooters to the right."
http://www.eotechinc.com/sites/default/files/manuals/G33%20user%20manual%20Rev%20B%2011-1-12.pdf
Not saying the Leupy is a magnifier, but it occupies the same real estate as one flipped to the right side. According to the guys at Eotech, that's just where a lefty like yourself should put it. I can't speak to why EoTech thinks that way, but my experience is when you shoot both-eyes-open there's very little area downrange that at least one eye can't see with a magnifier flipped to the side, in either configuration. Maybe Failure2stop can chime in on his experience with the optic. I would imagine every professional shooter/trainer that got their hands on this thing would have shot it both strong and weak side during evaluation.
Orange-Fox
01-16-15, 04:12
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/lco/leupold-carbine-optic-lco/
Guns and Ammo TV this week showed the LCO when they were doing a review of the new Stag 9mm carbine.
PatrioticDisorder
01-16-15, 13:19
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/01/16/leupold-will-make-you-a-change-the-way-you-look-at-red-dot-optics-with-their-new-d-evo-and-lco/
Lotta discussion here of the D-EVO, just a little about the LCO. Seems the best thing about the LCO is Aimpoint like battery life, I'll reserve any judgment on the LCO till we hear more but the D-EVO is simply brilliant, I'm sold!
Singlestack Wonder
01-16-15, 16:31
I'm still trying to get my head around as to why they didn't make this an inline scope (i.e. mounted center to the bore) with a mounting provision on top for the rds. While optically it will work, just seems like no matter how much everyone states that the bulk hanging off the side doesn't matter, it will matter (for example, the review stated that several thousand pieces of ejected brass had hit the bottom of the optic, will it hold up after 5k?).
I'm still trying to get my head around as to why they didn't make this an inline scope (i.e. mounted center to the bore) with a mounting provision on top for the rds. While optically it will work, just seems like no matter how much everyone states that the bulk hanging off the side doesn't matter, it will matter (for example, the review stated that several thousand pieces of ejected brass had hit the bottom of the optic, will it hold up after 5k?).
So basically you wanted a 6x ACOG?
That already exists.
And I don't think Leupold's HAMR really took off in any way, so maybe they're shying away from the ACOG niche.
evolDiesel
01-16-15, 17:24
[QUOTE=PatrioticDisorder;2064223]http://soldiersystems.net/2015/01/16/leupold-will-make-you-a-change-the-way-you-look-at-red-dot-optics-with-their-new-d-evo-and-lco/
Best article yet. It's a challenge to capture the value from an article. You really, really gotta go out and hit with it.
I'm still trying to get my head around as to why they didn't make this an inline scope (i.e. mounted center to the bore) with a mounting provision on top for the rds. While optically it will work, just seems like no matter how much everyone states that the bulk hanging off the side doesn't matter, it will matter (for example, the review stated that several thousand pieces of ejected brass had hit the bottom of the optic, will it hold up after 5k?).
I think it all comes down to cheekweld. If you want to maintain the normal sight height (approx 1.5" above the rail) there are only so many places you can put the objective lens. Using a standard EoTech style RDS means the objective HAS to go left or right. You could redesign a RDS to allow you to see under it, but that's precious little space to put an objective lens complete with adjustments. Plus putting the objective that low would prevent placement of laser designators on top of the handguard because it would block the view through the 6x.
Singlestack Wonder
01-16-15, 18:49
So basically you wanted a 6x ACOG?
That already exists.
And I don't think Leupold's HAMR really took off in any way, so maybe they're shying away from the ACOG niche.
No. You missed what I'm saying. Same concept with move the eye to the lower optic without changing cheekweld. Optically it can be done in a low profile optic.
sinlessorrow
01-16-15, 19:12
Is that right, $1800 for the devo and $1100 for the red dot.........
PatrioticDisorder
01-16-15, 19:39
No. You missed what I'm saying. Same concept with move the eye to the lower optic without changing cheekweld. Optically it can be done in a low profile optic.
My guess would be they didn't want the optic to get in the way of IR devices...
PatrioticDisorder
01-16-15, 19:41
Is that right, $1800 for the devo and $1100 for the red dot.........
Looks that way, street price of the D-EVO I would guess will be $1,350-$1,400 which seems reasonable for what it is. LCO with a street price of $850ish, it better offer something substantial over an Aimpoint Micro to justify its price tag.
Sorry, this is a long thread. Did anyone confirm the weight of the combo with the LCO and D-EVO?
Thanks
evolDiesel
01-16-15, 20:09
... the review stated that several thousand pieces of ejected brass had hit the bottom of the optic, will it hold up after 5k?.
Depending on the angle of brass ejection you can get nicks in the bottom of the housing. That's all I've seen so far and that was purely cosmetic.
You put the objective end on port side as opposed to starboard and you get the vast majority complaining about (A) objective in most guy's non dominant eye field of view and (B) awkward to carry against your chest with a sling.
Looks that way, street price of the D-EVO I would guess will be $1,350-$1,400 which seems reasonable for what it is. LCO with a street price of $850ish, it better offer something substantial over an Aimpoint Micro to justify its price tag.
Don't forget you don't have to pay for a mount for a D-EVO like you would with a typical 1-6. That's worth 200 bucks and 8 ounces right there. I heard the weight of the combo is less than a typical 1-6 and scope mount. If you want to get super light, go with some mini reflex sight like a deltapoint and you'll have the lightest smallest 6x platform ever.
Here's another article on the combo
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/16/21st-century-bifocals-for-zyour-carbine-the-leupold-d-evo-wlco/
Here's another article on the combo
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/16/21st-century-bifocals-for-zyour-carbine-the-leupold-d-evo-wlco/
Your link doesn't work.
This it?
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/16/21st-century-bifocals-for-your-carbine-the-leupold-d-evo-wlco/
Oops.. looks like JohnnyC got it right.
This it?
http://gearscout.militarytimes.com/2015/01/16/21st-century-bifocals-for-your-carbine-the-leupold-d-evo-wlco/
Must be. That sight picture photo is insane! Going to be glued to YouTube the first day of SHOT!
I'm impressed with what I've seen thus far. The definitely get points for thinking outside the box and I'm eager to see one in person.
I know they addressed spent brass... But does this thing (DEVO) play nicely with accessories on the handguard at 1 o'clock? A lot of us are running lights and lasers between 1 and 3. I wonder if that's a no-go or if like my 12 o'clock X300 and 1-6 it is barely noticeable?
31165
I'm impressed with what I've seen thus far. The definitely get points for thinking outside the box and I'm eager to see one in person.
I know they addressed spent brass... But does this thing (DEVO) play nicely with accessories on the handguard at 1 o'clock? A lot of us are running lights and lasers between 1 and 3. I wonder if that's a no-go or if like my 12 o'clock X300 and 1-6 it is barely noticeable?
In this picture from a few pages back you can see a sizeable designator on the front rail of a rifle lying in the background. It looks like it encroaches on the 1:00 position but probably not as far as your light. Good question though. Wonder if it's like a fixed front sight with magnification on a normal scope? I kinda like the idea that it wouldn't be staring straight at a fixed front sight though that's becoming less and less common.
31165
In this picture from a few pages back you can see a sizeable designator on the front rail of a rifle lying in the background. It looks like it encroaches on the 1:00 position but probably not as far as your light. Good question though. Wonder if it's like a fixed front sight with magnification on a normal scope? I kinda like the idea that it wouldn't be staring straight at a fixed front sight though that's becoming less and less common.
Looking at that photo I only see Keymod panels at 1 and 3 o'clock. It may be a non-issue as they seem to have done their research. On my 1-6 optic the X300 at 12 o'clock is not noticeable at full magnification. In addition to lights I've seen plenty of PEQ's and ATPIAL's on the right side. Time will tell as we start to see them in the wild.
31166
Looking at that photo I only see Keymod panels at 1 and 3 o'clock. It may be a non-issue as they seem to have done their research. On my 1-6 optic the X300 at 12 o'clock is not noticeable at full magnification. In addition to lights I've seen plenty of PEQ's and ATPIAL's on the right side. Time will tell as we start to see them in the wild.
Can you see it now?
sinlessorrow
01-18-15, 01:34
They need to make it more compact. I am a big believer in anything can fail, and when it does fail I want to have BUIS I can rely on and from what I can see you would have to run the red dot on the rail to fit a BUIS.
31166
Can you see it now?
Lol! Yep. I was looking at the rifle in the foreground. That appears to be a RAPTAR at 12 o'clock. Those hang off the side a good bit so hopefully it's a non-issue. Thanks!
PatrioticDisorder
01-18-15, 08:44
They need to make it more compact. I am a big believer in anything can fail, and when it does fail I want to have BUIS I can rely on and from what I can see you would have to run the red dot on the rail to fit a BUIS.
In the unlikely event your Aimpoint micro fails, you could run your rear BUIS just in front of your red dot on the rail... Obviously not ideal but if using a BUIS with large aperture I can see it maybe being usable for close in stuff, you'd still have the fixed 6x of the D-EVO for longer range.
In the unlikely event your Aimpoint micro fails, you could run your rear BUIS just in front of your red dot on the rail... Obviously not ideal but if using a BUIS with large aperture I can see it maybe being usable for close in stuff, you'd still have the fixed 6x of the D-EVO for longer range.
Agreed. Plus you avoid any potential point of aim problems from putting the red dot between your irons. Since anything precise can be done with the D-EVO I wonder if just a front sight would be sufficient for pointing at distant targets and shooting close ones. Clearly if you're concerned about both optics going down then you'd want both front and rear irons.
I just don't like the idea, really. Too many drawbacks. Not much positives.
I just don't like the idea, really. Too many drawbacks. Not much positives.
I'm curious, do you not think it will be that much faster or do you not do much shooting that requires fast target acquisition? For predator hunting you don't know how far your target will be and you can't afford unnecessary movement. It sounds perfect for that.
evolDiesel
01-18-15, 11:43
With any new, break through technology there is bound to be naysayers who haven't even tried the technology yet. I just hope they realize how limited their opinion is. I mean, there's levels of understanding, right? You heard about it. Read about it. Watched a video on it. Looked through one at a gun store counter. Watched a guy next to you shoot it at the range. Shot it yourself. Shot it hundreds of times. Shot it hundreds of times with several different rifles. Shot it hundreds of times with several different rifles in a variety of scenarios. Which is it? Just be realistic about the level of understanding backing the opinion. Unfortunately a lot of forum opinions don't dive very deep into the list above.
There are bound to be people who fall in love with flashy new toys and have a woodie about being one of the first to try it.
Guess everybody will have to wait til it's on the market, decide if it offers them anything, try it for themselves, and so on. Sometimes ideas don't matter. Nor does practicality. It's marketing and perceived utility. Then again, I'm the grouch that thinks magnifiers are stupid and I break everything I touch. If people like LAV, Costa, Haley, etc get behind it, it'll be a big seller because monkey see monkey do. If SOCOM buys them, so will the clone crowd.
If it works and well as designed it may fill a need for some people.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I like the idea, but I don't see what it does that an acog/rmr combo doesn't do at half the price.
Failure2Stop
01-18-15, 12:09
I like the idea, but I don't see what it does that an acog/rmr combo doesn't do at half the price.
It is far superior to a piggyback setup.
evolDiesel
01-18-15, 12:53
There are bound to be people who fall in love with flashy new toys and have a woodie about being one of the first to try it.
Guess everybody will have to wait til it's on the market, decide if it offers them anything, try it for themselves, and so on. Sometimes ideas don't matter. Nor does practicality. It's marketing and perceived utility. Then again, I'm the grouch that thinks magnifiers are stupid and I break everything I touch. If people like LAV, Costa, Haley, etc get behind it, it'll be a big seller because monkey see monkey do. If SOCOM buys them, so will the clone crowd.
If it works and well as designed it may fill a need for some people.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agree 100%
It is far superior to a piggyback setup.
First I want to say that I respect your opinion greatly and acknowledge that I have zero experience with this unit and am only going off what I have seen online about it.
That said I believe, from my experience with a RDS/magnifier combo that the added weight and bulk was not worth the utility for me. I am a fan of acogs as I have not found anything that works better for me personally. And a RMR on top adds little in weight or bulk.
I can see the benefit of this setup, especially from the viewpoint picture, and it definitely has less shift involved for changing views than the acog/rmr combo. I just don't know if it would be worth the added bulk and cost to me.
Failure2Stop
01-18-15, 13:55
I can't tell you that it's economically viable for you, only that for me, the performance is substantially better.
I can't tell you that it's economically viable for you, only that for me, the performance is substantially better.
Cost is secondary to the bulk as an issue with me. If it is worth it, I will save. I ran a eotech/magnifier combo and didn't care for the bulk at all.
That said, thank you for your input, and I will hold off on any further judgements until I can check one out in person.
I do like the idea of it, just wish it was in one integrated unit. (I can dream right?[emoji1] )
PatrioticDisorder
01-18-15, 14:52
Cost is secondary to the bulk as an issue with me. If it is worth it, I will save. I ran a eotech/magnifier combo and didn't care for the bulk at all.
That said, thank you for your input, and I will hold off on any further judgements until I can check one out in person.
I do like the idea of it, just wish it was in one integrated unit. (I can dream right?[emoji1] )
Call me crazy, but I LOVE the fact it is not integrated. Leupold is basically letting you decide if you want the LCO as well or want something else like an Aimpoint Micro. Price point & weight seem reasonable for what the D-EVO offers.
evolDiesel
01-18-15, 15:40
...Leupold is basically letting you decide if you want the LCO as well or want something else like an Aimpoint Micro. Price point & weight seem reasonable for what the D-EVO offers.
Now we're getting somewhere ;).
As for the comments on bulk and weight, when paired up with a DeltaPoint or other mini red dot the complete system is shorter and lighter than just about every 1-6 out there. The D-EVO itself is only 13.8oz. A Trigicon SRS is almost a full pound and its just a red dot.
My favorite pairing so far is the Deltapoint Pro. I really like it with a Micro T1 or 2 as well but the Deltapoint 2 is so bitchin with this thing.
I like the idea, but I don't see what it does that an acog/rmr combo doesn't do at half the price.
Have to agree...and I'm a big fan of both trijicon and also leupold.
With acog and rmr combo, you are more heads up while using the rmr and when magnification is needed you simply lower your head a bit and boom, 4x magnification.
Built like a tank and also allows for BUIS at 1.
My biggest concern I guess would be the parascope type system and it's durability...and nd again, big fan of leupold!
Just my .02 bit I am glad to see new technology and ideas coming out!
jerrysimons
01-18-15, 17:48
The D-EVO looks about perfect for a patrol rifle with RDS. Plug and play with the reticle and off-set. Curious how night vision might be implemented for Mil use.
What is the FOV? How is clarity?
So it is meant to be zeroed at 200m and has right horizontal off-set built into the ballistic drop reticle, but what is the distance side of bore? Inside of 200 the shot will be to the right. If you wanted to take a magnified 50-100 meter shot, how much would POI hit right of POA? Doubtful the distance side of bore is more than the standard 1.5" height over bore, which with standard height over bore 200 meter zero is pretty much point and shoot with torso sized targets. Not much a concern there but if wanting to hit a smaller head sized target at 75m, horizontal off-set may be more of a consideration.
PatrioticDisorder
01-18-15, 18:23
Now we're getting somewhere ;).
As for the comments on bulk and weight, when paired up with a DeltaPoint or other mini red dot the complete system is shorter and lighter than just about every 1-6 out there. The D-EVO itself is only 13.8oz. A Trigicon SRS is almost a full pound and its just a red dot.
My favorite pairing so far is the Deltapoint Pro. I really like it with a Micro T1 or 2 as well but the Deltapoint 2 is so bitchin with this thing.
The only catch with the Deltapoint is the external diode.... If the Deltapoint PRO does not have an external Diode I'd be all over it.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=4096
evolDiesel
01-18-15, 19:14
So it is meant to be zeroed at 200m and has right horizontal off-set built into the ballistic drop reticle, but what is the distance side of bore? Inside of 200 the shot will be to the right. If you wanted to take a magnified 50-100 meter shot, how much would POI hit right of POA?
1.35" @ 50M
0.9" @ 100M
There was a day we took it out where the longest target was only 200M. I found myself using the RDS for most of those targets.
kelly neal
01-18-15, 19:16
It is far superior to a piggyback setup.
I totally agree. Everyone, I mean everyone, that I have ever seen shoot the ACOG/RMR combo (or Leupold's equivalent HAMR/Deltapoint) under stress (and I'm just talking under a clock at a match stress) is unable to manage the huge amount of offset that the piggybacked RDS has to deal with, especially on close targets with no shoots and/or hardcover. This includes some of the people that invented that concept. I don't know that the DEVO is the ultimate solution but it is a better system than the piggyback setup simply due to reduced offset.
This is very interesting, though I don't see they didn't make the 6x in-line like a standard optic, but set low like the D-EVO and add a 1x optic on top. It would accomplish the same thing, without the offset nature of the D-EVO. This is not a slight and I am most certainly intrigued by this.
How much light is being lost with the two 90deg turns??
Wonder when they will announce rev x with one objective... That would be cool.
While this gadget is way out of my league. I think it will be a game changer for all kinds of shooters who are always needing to balance distance shooting with CQB. Maybe if it takes off economies of scale will make it a bit more affordable.
jerrysimons
01-18-15, 21:05
1.35" @ 50M
0.9" @ 100M
There was a day we took it out where the longest target was only 200M. I found myself using the RDS for most of those targets.
Thanks. So 1.8 inches to the side of the bore?
I hear you, though shooting a small target (6" circle) at 100meters, I found magnification helpful with consistent hits and speed. Just pondering how the distance side of bore might be compounded with a 2-4moa gun at these ranges to gauge a realistic POA/POI point and shoot use. The magnification, even as it is off-set to the side, opens up some possibilities under 200m that might otherwise be challenging with only an RDS.
My favorite pairing so far is the Deltapoint Pro. I really like it with a Micro T1 or 2 as well but the Deltapoint 2 is so bitchin with this thing.
Any pictures of the Deltapoint Pro combo?
jerrysimons
01-18-15, 21:25
This is very interesting, though I don't see they didn't make the 6x in-line like a standard optic, but set low like the D-EVO and add a 1x optic on top. It would accomplish the same thing, without the offset nature of the D-EVO. This is not a slight and I am most certainly intrigued by this.
I suppose it is possible but if it were that low at 12' o'clock your hands and everything on the rail would partially obstruct the view, unless you jacked the RDS height over bore up high like a piggy back set-up does, which leads to having to shift cheek weld to chin weld instead of just glancing. The piggy back set-up basically puts the RDS as a secondary optic to the primary (ACOG or scope). The D-EVO set-up keeps the RDS as a primary optic (where RDS excels up close and where even my Kahles K16i doesn't match its speed) while giving you the option of magnification with more speed, economy of movement, and precision (see the reticle) than a flip-to-side magnifier. I don't see an any sighting issue with the off-set the way Leupold designed the reticle, save for a slight consideration of POI to the right of POA for precise shots well under 200m (like around 50-100m). The bulk outside the width of the rifle could be an issue for some, but the D-EVO should work as intended. I am just curious how it stacks up as a fixed magnification scope in the important areas not mentioned yet: FOV, clarity, eye box, etc.
evolDiesel
01-18-15, 21:34
Any pictures of the Deltapoint Pro combo?
I have a setup at my desk. I need to make sure it's ok to post. I'll be in on Tues.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it appears that the folks that figured this thing out must really have their $hit together. From the new overall concept to the fancy reticle that comps for the offset lens to making it work with existing red dot sights. There are an awful lot of posts on this and other forums claiming certain features are "impossible" or they can't understand how this could work but when we hear from an actual user it turns out it works great. Well just because you don't get it don't mean it don't work! This is not your daddy's riflescope. This is something truly novel and different. Somebody was tired of playing by the same old set of rules and decided to change them. I like that. I can't wait to see how it's received at the show.
evolDiesel
01-18-15, 21:38
Thanks. So 1.8 inches to the side of the bore?
I hear you, though shooting a small target (6" circle) at 100meters, I found magnification helpful with consistent hits and speed.
Yes. That day was running around offhand, kneeling, sitting, etc. Prone or benchrest I'm all for the 6X.
PatrioticDisorder
01-18-15, 21:40
I have a setup at my desk. I need to make sure it's ok to post. I'll be in on Tues.
Does the Deltapoint PRO have an external diode?
My .02 but if nothing else I'd say this tech is certainly a step in the right direction. It always takes a few generations of refinement.
Kudos to a company delving into a new frontier.
So after reading through this thread as well as the Gear Scout and Soldiersystems accounts, it seems that for proper eye relief there is not enough room to install rear Back Up Irons in their ordinary place?
steyrman13
01-18-15, 23:57
So after reading through this thread as well as the Gear Scout and Soldiersystems accounts, it seems that for proper eye relief there is not enough room to install rear Back Up Irons in their ordinary place?
Putting an iron behind it in the normal position would obscure the 6x view.
To the ones says why not inline with the red dot just low to the rail, it would be obscured by irons, lights, peq, etc.
I guess they aren't designing it to be used with weapon mounted NV setups like a 27. So a peq would be necessary.
If you have two independent sights already, do you really need irons? And yes, I know there are cases where irons would be better, but still.
-john
jerrysimons
01-19-15, 08:37
If you have two independent sights already, do you really need irons? And yes, I know there are cases where irons would be better, but still.
-john
Someone has mentioned putting a a BUIS in front of the D-EVO unit behind the RDS. This would be my solution with a quick detach RDS. Both optics fogged would put you out of business with this set-up otherwise. No ability to run off-set irons.
Someone has mentioned putting a a BUIS in front of the D-EVO unit behind the RDS. This would be my solution with a quick detach RDS. Both optics fogged would put you out of business with this set-up otherwise. No ability to run off-set irons.
Good point. Also I don't think I could see through a rear attached so far forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NRA got their hands on one for a video.
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/1/18/leupold-d-evo/
I suppose it is possible but if it were that low at 12' o'clock your hands and everything on the rail would partially obstruct the view, unless you jacked the RDS height over bore up high like a piggy back set-up does, which leads to having to shift cheek weld to chin weld instead of just glancing. The piggy back set-up basically puts the RDS as a secondary optic to the primary (ACOG or scope). The D-EVO set-up keeps the RDS as a primary optic (where RDS excels up close and where even my Kahles K16i doesn't match its speed) while giving you the option of magnification with more speed, economy of movement, and precision (see the reticle) than a flip-to-side magnifier. I don't see an any sighting issue with the off-set the way Leupold designed the reticle, save for a slight consideration of POI to the right of POA for precise shots well under 200m (like around 50-100m). The bulk outside the width of the rifle could be an issue for some, but the D-EVO should work as intended. I am just curious how it stacks up as a fixed magnification scope in the important areas not mentioned yet: FOV, clarity, eye box, etc.
Thanks, those points all make sense.
evolDiesel
01-19-15, 23:45
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/19/c6f0688a66d5e8e797abd77e2ff258ee.jpg
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