View Full Version : Stolen Valor?
Failure2Stop
10-16-14, 12:43
I recently had something relayed to me, the subject of which I believe should be left anonymous.
Here is the story:
Subject circumstantially received a free drink from a local Starbucks that he regularly patronizes. At that time, he was wearing Multicam and a black camo, as he was out making a short youtube video, and went with what he was wearing. At no point in the conversation was he asked or hinted at anything relating to military service of anything of the sort, nor did it occur to the subject that the drink was received due to the perception of military service.
It was not until someone decided to bring up that possibility that things got heated and things went south.
No flags, insignias, or patches that indicate service were worn. The only item worn was a samurai patch.
Thoughts?
wildcard600
10-16-14, 12:48
i guess im not tracking. someone bought him a coffee on the assumption that he was .mil due to wearing camo ? did the subject start talking about alleged mil service after being questioned ?
Too little detail in the story to form an opinion.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-16-14, 12:56
Sounds like non issue to me. Unless he started talking about all the dudes he used to snipe over in "the sand box" I don't think it was a big deal.
Yeah sounds like he was perceived as military because of the camo but wasn't actually trying to cause that perception. No big deal in my eyes. Kinda lost on the heated part though, did he start talking with whoever paid for his drink? If that's the case, hopefully he was just honest about not being military and offered to pay for the drink.
I like to think that in my region we don't have such shit heads who would denounce a fellow citizen in uniform, and I hope that if we did, then then other guys like myself(and millions more)would step forward and tell them to shut up and move on. For many years I've made an effort to thank our persons in uniform for their service. I regret that I did not serve.
Voodoo_Man
10-16-14, 13:48
The only time, in my opinion, Stolen Valor, applies is when a person makes a conscious effort, with the intent to deceive, to lie about their service and/or accomplishments.
A person is allowed to dress in any manor (unless clearly identified as a LEO or MIL with insignia's (of accomplishment) and otherwise) at any time they wish - 1st amendment right. Furthermore, the fact that someone is wearing insignia or a certain patch or uniform does not automatically mean they are stealing anything, until they actually state so.
That's an excellent point.
Considering the proliferation of airsofters and normal gun folk who think that Multicam is just kinda "cool", I don't see how wearing it to a starbucks is any more of an indication of past military service than an average guy owning an AR. Perhaps the coffee buyer was looking to out the dude from the start and was looking for an angle? Maybe to make him look bad in front of a chick, or to be a bully?
If I saw a samurai wearing Multicam I'd buy him a cup of coffee too.
Unless the subject claimed military or police service, I believe it is a non-issue. If the subject was known to me, I would suggest the next time they were faced with the same situation that he/she tell the clerk at Starbucks they were not a Veteran or LEO.
The only time, in my opinion, Stolen Valor, applies is when a person makes a conscious effort, with the intent to deceive, to lie about their service and/or accomplishments.
A person is allowed to dress in any manor (unless clearly identified as a LEO or MIL with insignia's (of accomplishment) and otherwise) at any time they wish - 1st amendment right. Furthermore, the fact that someone is wearing insignia or a certain patch or uniform does not automatically mean they are stealing anything, until they actually state so.
Agree with this.
Failure2Stop
10-16-14, 15:39
Too little detail in the story to form an opinion.
I agree that it isn't exactly the most descriptive account, and is one-sided, therefore subject to personal bias, however, I believe that taken on its base premise one could share their opinion.
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
Moose-Knuckle
10-16-14, 15:43
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
IMHO, no as the person in question did not ask for it. Now if the person in question asked for the discount/free cup of coffee claiming that he is XYZ then yes.
Voodoo_Man
10-16-14, 15:45
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
In my opinion no. It is the discretion of the establishment to determine who gets a discount or "gift." It may not be the moral or ethical thing to do, but we know ethics and morals are not high on most people's agenda's now a days.
I agree that it isn't exactly the most descriptive account, and is one-sided, therefore subject to personal bias, however, I believe that taken on its base premise one could share their opinion.
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
I would say no because in this situation there was no intent from what I can tell.
One thing that you have to understand is that most of the people out there see a uniform and think military. It could be a set of DCUs or BDUs and they will still think it is a person in the service of their country, they have no idea that the uniforms have changed. With that in mind why did he not simply ask why it was free? The fact that he did not ask why it was free is a bit subject to me. Did he know in his mind that he was getting it because he was in a uniform? If that is the case than that may not be stolen valor but it is pretty shitty. The whole, "I never said that I was in the Service, I just let them think what they wanted to think" is almost as bad.
Food for thought.
I agree that it isn't exactly the most descriptive account, and is one-sided, therefore subject to personal bias, however, I believe that taken on its base premise one could share their opinion.
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
Nope, just generous people who don't know what they don't know in most of the cases I've seen. Until an actual claim that can be tested against a standard is made, it's just grey area stuff at best.
I agree that it isn't exactly the most descriptive account, and is one-sided, therefore subject to personal bias, however, I believe that taken on its base premise one could share their opinion.
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
don't see how it could be. I can't be responsible for other people jumping to conclusions...
I agree that it isn't exactly the most descriptive account, and is one-sided, therefore subject to personal bias, however, I believe that taken on its base premise one could share their opinion.
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
Not in my opinion.
Moose-Knuckle
10-16-14, 17:31
Here is a curve ball . . .
What if the guy in question was a Veteran but not active duty? Places around here will have free meals and the like on Veterans Day for any prior service members with their ID. A lot of places in my AO won't charge MIL/LEO/EMS/FIRE for a coffee/fountain drink if in uniform.
Assuming that there wasn't some mil promotion going on then I don't see how you can show the person intended to gain something by wearing MultiCam. Should be have asked what's up?? Maybe, but then that isn't a legal discussion it's one of morals.
If I saw a samurai wearing Multicam I'd buy him a cup of coffee too.
First good laugh today! Thanks
.46caliber
10-16-14, 18:06
Stolen Valor, no. Maybe a little greedy or selfish or dishonest but I would need more detail to come to a conclusion.
If I were the subject in question, I couldn't accept the free coffee with a clear conscience if I thought I was being treated to it as an active duty MIL/LE. I would explain that I wasn't and insist on paying for it or buying one for a present MIL/LE.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
The_War_Wagon
10-16-14, 18:14
I think we can forego the flogging at SOCNET... THIS time...
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
Not in my book. I know what I'm wearing to Starbucks tomorrow. ;)
I agree that it isn't exactly the most descriptive account, and is one-sided, therefore subject to personal bias, however, I believe that taken on its base premise one could share their opinion.
Premise: Is receiving a low cost gift from a frequented place, while wearing camouflage; with no claims, indications, or other implications of service, stolen valor?
No.
However, if its accompanied by some sort of acknowledgement of service, or explained that the gift is due to some military service (when fhe recipient has none), then yes.
Being in a large city that seems to looooove their military, and never receiving anything free except for a "random act of kindness" situation at a starbucks. I would just call the guy lucky, or appreciated as a loyal patron by said business.
I have gotten to the point where I specifically ask a business to not give me the military discount because I do this at my own free will. I was not drafted, and the "mil/leo discount" is often abused and quite embarrassing. This is a personal view so flame me if you must. This will be enjoyable
MorphCross
10-16-14, 21:02
From working in retail at chain stores, you either ask for their military ID or DD214 depending on status. If it's another customer doing it to be friendly, that is completely on them.
MountainRaven
10-16-14, 22:23
I've gotten free food from places before.
But then, the owner knows me and I'm a frequent customer at his place.
And I don't know about when this was, but if the dude was wearing camp at this time of year, regardless of what kind, my first thought would be hunter, not soldier.
Guys wearing full camo to Starbucks are simply lame - No stolen valor.
Even when I was hunting wearing camo, before I appeared in public, I changed back into normal clothes.
I felt ridiculous wearing camo in public, but maybe that's just me...
I recently had something relayed to me, the subject of which I believe should be left anonymous.
Here is the story:
Subject circumstantially received a free drink from a local Starbucks that he regularly patronizes. At that time, he was wearing Multicam and a black camo, as he was out making a short youtube video, and went with what he was wearing. At no point in the conversation was he asked or hinted at anything relating to military service of anything of the sort, nor did it occur to the subject that the drink was received due to the perception of military service.
It was not until someone decided to bring up that possibility that things got heated and things went south.
No flags, insignias, or patches that indicate service were worn. The only item worn was a samurai patch.
Thoughts?
Not at all, not even if he was clearly taking advantage. Mick Strider on the other hand, how many here have one of his knives? Now that is/was stolen valor....
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