View Full Version : How many rounds before you trust a semi-automatic rifle?
For those of you using rifles that are not the well-known AR-15, how do you determine if your AK, FAL, G3, M14, etc. clone is ready for serious defensive use?
CrazyFingers
10-17-14, 08:29
I've got 1,210 rounds through my SAM7r with 0 stoppages of any kind. I'd call that trustworthy, but I think around 500 rounds I decided it was good to go. I know others here have put many more rounds through their non-ARs and could give you better advice than I.
Clean and lube when new and then a 1000 rounds of mixed ammo with no cleaning other than maybe a wipe down.
3000-4000 rounds without a hickup.
Define trust? The gun is a mechanical part that is made by people who are not perfect. One day it will stop working due to billion other uncontrollable events/components. That is why you need to acquire skills to deal with the failures in the battle conditions and have a side arm and the extra mags and good skills to use them. It is impossible to say that after 4000 rounds gun will function perfect. It may fail on 4025 due to the faulty cartridge or a sand pebble in the chamber. It's the skill and not the tool that will help you.
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By running a series of simple tests, you can tell right away if a rifle of a proven design is set up right. Magazine problems, short stroking, ejection/extraction problems will all pretty much make themselves known within just a few rounds. If it's a used rifle, replacing all the springs is cheap insurance. Field strip the rifle and inspect for loose, missing, broken, bent or worn parts and for proper assembly. Make sure the rifle is free from all factory preservatives and lube it well. A little too much lube is better than too little when dealing with a new or new to you rifle. Cycle the action by hand to see how it feels and add lube to where it may feel rough. Check to see if anything is catching that shouldn't during cycling.
Start by giving the magazines a thorough visual inspection. Check for damage, dents, splits, swelling and cracks. Load each mag and check to see how the rounds fit and at what angle they sit. While partially loaded, bump the bottom with your hand and see if the bullets shift around or pop out the top. Check to see each mag seats firmly.
Begin test firing by loading a single round in a mag to ensure it will extract, eject and lock back (if applicable). If the rifle has an adjustable gas system, adjust it at this time. Then, load the mag with two rounds, then three, four and five rounds. This tests the ability of the magazine to feed from both sides at lower spring pressures. Then top off the magazine and fire all the rounds. It doesn't need to be a mag dump but it can be combined with your sighting in procedure. During this time, don't use the mag as a monopod- you don't want to introduce any variables. You can test for reliability while using the mag as a monopod after verifying the rifle runs fine.
Once the rifle passes these tests, load up a couple-three mags and give it a run, the field strip it again and check again for bent, broken or loose parts. By this time, you'll know if a rifle of a proven design has problems or not
Semiauto pistol / rifle - prefer 500rds without issue, will settle for 250 of which at least 50 are designated HD/SD load
Revolver - 50rds minimum, of which half are designated HD/SD load
But in the end, whatever you chose, realize you are trusting a mechanical device that will eventually, without question, fail. Could be in 1 round, could be in 10K rounds. And yes, you can lessen the chance of that occurring through proper cleaning, maintenance, lubrication, but it is not possible to eliminate the truth. Mechanical devices can and will fail, sometimes without any indication that it will.
Semiauto pistol / rifle - prefer 500rds without issue, will settle for 250 of which at least 50 are designated HD/SD load
Revolver - 50rds minimum, of which half are designated HD/SD load
But in the end, whatever you chose, realize you are trusting a mechanical device that will eventually, without question, fail. Could be in 1 round, could be in 10K rounds. And yes, you can lessen the chance of that occurring through proper cleaning, maintenance, lubrication, but it is not possible to eliminate the truth. Mechanical devices can and will fail, sometimes without any indication that it will.
I 2nd this, I work on some of the finest automobiles on the planet, they still break...
RHINOWSO
Agree 100%! Clean, inspect, lube, shoot. Fine the ammo it shoots the best an stock up on it. I don't use round counts to determine when a rifle is ready for duty. If your thinking it could or would be used for SD/HD you should be shooting it often.:cool:
You could look up a sampling plan in a stats book so at least there is some rationale for the number of rounds. Amazingly, Rhino's recommendation comes very close to a couple of good attribute sampling plans. 230 rounds would give you 90% confidence that the rifle is 99% reliable. 459 yields 99% confidence, 99% reliability. After that, adding more rounds is just diminishing returns. Yeah, I know... not sexy but this was kind of in my lane. Now back to the show...
You could look up a sampling plan in a stats book so at least there is some rationale for the number of rounds. Amazingly, Rhino's recommendation comes very close to a couple of good attribute sampling plans. 230 rounds would give you 90% confidence that the rifle is 99% reliable. 459 yields 99% confidence, 99% reliability. After that, adding more rounds is just diminishing returns. Yeah, I know... not sexy but this was kind of in my lane. Now back to the show...
Dude, I wish I had learned Economics by using gun analogies. That would have made the class so much more understandable.
Anyways, MistWolf's post is about as good as its going to get. If you want to put 500 rounds through it and have no problems to improve your belief it is reliable that do so. But really there are way too many mechanical variables to determine when or if something will break. Within a couple mags worth of ammo you should be able to determine how well it is going to run for you.
I 2nd this, I work on some of the finest automobiles on the planet, they still break...
An extended firing session mainly tests the consistency of the ammunition. If you don't clean during the test, it may determine the reliability when it is dirty. If you don't clean at least the chamber before serious use, you are a fool. Civilians or police don't need to consider extended firing as a factor in reliability since they fire so few rounds in a self defense or police scenario. They don't carry that much ammo!
The ideal, IMHO, is to have one weapon for duty and one for practice, with both as identical to each other as possible. Mario Andretti probably did not drive his race car to the movies. This is often affordable with handguns, not so much with rifles. If two rifles are out of the question, then I would practice with moderation and care for proper technique, clean the weapon well with proper attention to the chamber, and very lightly lube only the duty cartridge cases for best reliability. The ideal is one that works well without lubed ammo during practice, and then lube the cases for added insurance for duty only.
An extended firing session mainly tests the consistency of the ammunition. If you don't clean during the test, it may determine the reliability when it is dirty. If you don't clean at least the chamber before serious use, you are a fool. Civilians or police don't need to consider extended firing as a factor in reliability since they fire so few rounds in a self defense or police scenario. They don't carry that much ammo!
The ideal, IMHO, is to have one weapon for duty and one for practice, with both as identical to each other as possible. Mario Andretti probably did not drive his race car to the movies. This is often affordable with handguns, not so much with rifles. If two rifles are out of the question, then I would practice with moderation and care for proper technique, clean the weapon well with proper attention to the chamber, and very lightly lube only the duty cartridge cases for best reliability. The ideal is one that works well without lubed ammo during practice, and then lube the cases for added insurance for duty only.
Proper care, preperation, and maintenance goes a long way.
Define trust? The gun is a mechanical part that is made by people who are not perfect. One day it will stop working due to billion other uncontrollable events/components. That is why you need to acquire skills to deal with the failures in the battle conditions and have a side arm and the extra mags and good skills to use them. It is impossible to say that after 4000 rounds gun will function perfect. It may fail on 4025 due to the faulty cartridge or a sand pebble in the chamber. It's the skill and not the tool that will help you.
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Given the fact that malfunctions and failures can and will happen I agree 100% with your statement here and this video comes to mind. Travis Haley demonstrates some of these skills needed
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yC3EmQwv8hk
Transition from a rifle to a pistol is a huge factor in case of a major failure. We all want to hope for the best but need to also be prepaired for the worst IMO. Know what to do in case of that "oh shit moment" before it happens.
To be honest, some of it depends on the brand. 250 rounds without hiccups through something like a DD, Colt, or BCM and I am good to go.
I have had Bushmaster with close to 5000 rounds never have a hiccup.
For those of you using rifles that are not the well-known AR-15, how do you determine if your AK, FAL, G3, M14, etc. clone is ready for serious defensive use?
For a NON AR15, I chose SCAR17, appx 1000 rounds since June, not one problem with any ammo I have fed it. I have determined without a doubt that it is ready for serious defensive use. BUT... there is always the chance for something to go wrong as it is man made and nothing is perfect. Therefore it is my job to keep the rifle in tip top shape and be prepared for when a malfunction or failure happens. Notice I said "when" not "if".
This is just my honest personal opinion on your question. I don't think there is any exact round count number to determine the reliability, but I'll say the more without issues the merrier.
By running a series of simple tests, you can tell right away if a rifle of a proven design is set up right. Magazine problems, short stroking, ejection/extraction problems will all pretty much make themselves known within just a few rounds. If it's a used rifle, replacing all the springs is cheap insurance. Field strip the rifle and inspect for loose, missing, broken, bent or worn parts and for proper assembly. Make sure the rifle is free from all factory preservatives and lube it well. A little too much lube is better than too little when dealing with a new or new to you rifle. Cycle the action by hand to see how it feels and add lube to where it may feel rough. Check to see if anything is catching that shouldn't during cycling.
Start by giving the magazines a thorough visual inspection. Check for damage, dents, splits, swelling and cracks. Load each mag and check to see how the rounds fit and at what angle they sit. While partially loaded, bump the bottom with your hand and see if the bullets shift around or pop out the top. Check to see each mag seats firmly.
Begin test firing by loading a single round in a mag to ensure it will extract, eject and lock back (if applicable). If the rifle has an adjustable gas system, adjust it at this time. Then, load the mag with two rounds, then three, four and five rounds. This tests the ability of the magazine to feed from both sides at lower spring pressures. Then top off the magazine and fire all the rounds. It doesn't need to be a mag dump but it can be combined with your sighting in procedure. During this time, don't use the mag as a monopod- you don't want to introduce any variables. You can test for reliability while using the mag as a monopod after verifying the rifle runs fine.
Once the rifle passes these tests, load up a couple-three mags and give it a run, the field strip it again and check again for bent, broken or loose parts. By this time, you'll know if a rifle of a proven design has problems or not
^^^^ This is the only answer that you need.
^^^^ This is the only answer that you need.
Why do you say that is the only right answer? Don't get me wrong by any means that's an all around great post of procedures to follow for gaining initial trust in any new or used rifle in which I practice myself and I agree 100%. But the words "trust" and "serious defensive use" in the same sentence tells me we're talking about a life or death matter. You've never had a FTF/FTE on any of your weapons?
Maybe some of my comments here on this thread are better for the Training and Tactics category, but a rifle or any weapon for that matter is just as good as a rock or a paperweight if it doesn't have an operator that knows how to use it under different circumstances especially if we are talking life or death.
Not trying to be confrontational by any means I just think there is more to be aware of when it comes to "trusting" any tool with your life. Trust yourself first then make the tool that you have decided is your personal favorite and most trustworthy choice do it's job with your own two hands
Why do you say that is the only right answer? Don't get me wrong by any means that's an all around great post of procedures to follow for gaining initial trust in any new or used rifle in which I practice myself and I agree 100%. But the words "trust" and "serious defensive use" in the same sentence tells me we're talking about a life or death matter. You've never had a FTF/FTE on any of your weapons?
Maybe some of my comments here on this thread are better for the Training and Tactics category, but a rifle or any weapon for that matter is just as good as a rock or a paperweight if it doesn't have an operator that knows how to use it under different circumstances especially if we are talking life or death.
Not trying to be confrontational by any means I just think there is more to be aware of when it comes to "trusting" any tool with your life.
I agree because if a rifle passes those tests, and you're using known GOOD components, then it's unlikely that it will start to develop problems quickly after that. As long as I do my job in assembly and maintenance, then my rifle will do its part. Any part - despite the maker - is able to fail catastrophically. How many rounds does it take? I mean, I'd rather trust a BCM with 300 flawless rounds through it than a DPMS with 5000. Shooting induces stress on your gun. In my experience, a properly assembled rifle made from top tier components will keep shooting - I don't need to torture test my firearm before I deem it battle-worthy.
Always carry a knife or two and handgun as backup. There. Problem solved.
Always carry a knife or two and handgun as backup. There. Problem solved.
Amen.
Eddiesketti
11-13-14, 15:40
If the weapon breaks then I would consider it or at least the broken part unreliable. A dud round does not make the weapon but the ammo unrealiable. Training on said weapon system is an important factor to overcome human error and to fix or reduce failure. When you are comfortable with the ammo you have chosen, weapon system you choose to run and training for overcoming weaknesses from your platform choices, then you will be ready.
I shoot several drills with my rifle that consist of anywhere from fifty to seventy rounds every three months or so ( ammo is expensive ). I try to shoot a practical rifle match with it at least twice a year. So far, so good. No problems. I know I don't have 5,000 rounds through it, but I trust it to defend home and family.
I remembered reading this when I was deciding on either SCAR or an AR platform in 308.
In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 Carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. During the testing, 6,000 rounds apiece were fired from each of the carbines in an "extreme dust environment". The purpose of the shootoff was to assess future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4.
During the test, the SCAR suffered 226 stoppages. Since a percentage of each weapons' stoppages were caused by magazine failures, the FN SCAR, XM8 and HK 416 performed statistically similarly. The FN SCAR ranked second to the XM8 with 127 stoppages, but with fewer stoppages compared to the M4 with 882 stoppages and the HK 416 with 233. This test was based on two previous systems assessments that were conducted using the M4 Carbine and M16 rifle at Aberdeen Proving Ground in 2006 and the summer of 2007 before the third limited competition in the fall of 2007. The 2006 test focused only on the M4 and M16. The Summer 2007 test had only the M4, but increased lubrication. Results from the second test resulted in a total of 307 stoppages for the M4 after lubrication was increased, but did not explain why the M4 suffered 882 stoppages with that same level of lubrication in the third test. (Wikipedia)
Just some interesting comparisons on round counts vs stoppages.
DreadPirateMoyer
11-14-14, 09:06
I seem to remember that test not using the same magazines in each gun, though, correct? Seems to me it's not a representative study on the M4's stoppages if it's using USGI mags with USGI followers while the others are using PMAGs and proprietary mags with different followers.
BUT, that said, it's a very eye-opening test for when people talk about stoppages. In harsh, hard-use conditions, the gun's going to have stoppages regardless of its quality. Period. I trust my rifles after 500 rounds and a thorough inspection/test like MistWolf listed, but they're going to fail you at some point even if they're perfect. In the test above, there was a failure every 47 rounds in the best case.
Man, that's enlightening.
Two magazines, followed by my collective experience shooting the rifle over time. I don't obsess over reliability because I know $hit breaks all the time.
Every rifle is going to fail to do something at some point, you're going to get an out of spec round or an early magazine hiccup. If you shoot 500 rounds and call your rifle "reliable" and you run across an out of spec round on shot 501 did you just waste 500 rounds? Is your rifle now unreliable?
If you want something 100% reliable, get a baseball bat and throw it under your bed. 100% reliable, no over penetration and no hearing loss or flash blindness.
Sometimes I wonder what situation some folks think they are preparing for talking about using 7.62 rifles for "defensive" purposes and abstract round counts to determine "reliability." The military does what they do for good reasons, most of those good reasons don't "usually" apply to the computer based commando. :confused:
Perhaps its just too much Walking Dead on TV.......Heck, Tyrece was using an M1 carbine to defend his position at the prison. :cool:
Have fun and be safe.
I seem to remember that test not using the same magazines in each gun, though, correct? Seems to me it's not a representative study on the M4's stoppages if it's using USGI mags with USGI followers while the others are using PMAGs and proprietary mags with different followers.
BUT, that said, it's a very eye-opening test for when people talk about stoppages. In harsh, hard-use conditions, the gun's going to have stoppages regardless of its quality. Period. I trust my rifles after 500 rounds and a thorough inspection/test like MistWolf listed, but they're going to fail you at some point even if they're perfect. In the test above, there was a failure every 47 rounds in the best case.
Man, that's enlightening.
You are correct about the magazines not being a total fair factor in the test and we aren't talking about entry level rifles here either, no matter the quality and preperation it is going to happen. Am I going to toss my SCAR out in the woods because it jams on me? Hell no I'm going to identify and correct as quickly as possible and roll on.
If you want something 100% reliable, get a baseball bat and throw it under your bed. 100% reliable, no over penetration and no hearing loss or flash blindness.
I'll stick with bullets. :cool:
What about a crossbow? Sorry, I couldn't resist... someone brought up Walking Dead.
Anyway, nothing is 100% reliable. I used to break bats over my thigh to show off when I played baseball. Anything that isn't indestructible (in otherwords nothing) is capable of failure.
What about a crossbow? Sorry, I couldn't resist... someone brought up Walking Dead.
Anyway, nothing is 100% reliable. I used to break bats over my thigh to show off when I played baseball. Anything that isn't indestructible (in otherwords nothing) is capable of failure.
Are you Bo Jackson? Breakin bats over your thigh lol, Sorry that's who came to mind.
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