View Full Version : What do you do if a handgun you want to carry fails your reliability test?
Let's say you buy a handgun and want to carry it. You fire 500 rounds of ammo and have three to five malfunctions that are not easily reproducible. What is your next step? Would you ever trust this gun for carry?
Malfunctions are attributed to a myriad of things that are related to the firearm, the shooter and ammunition. Sometimes they are unidentifiable. I would accept that there is no unicorn and become familiar with clearing stoppages and carry extra magazines. Beyond that carry a back up weapons system for Murphy and his stupid law.
Depends on the gun. I would say at this point after 500 rounds you are done with break in. I would thoroughly clean and lube the pistol and try to get at least 1000 rounds out of it without a malfunction. I would not clean it during that time. Guns I carry I do 2000 rounds. If you continue to still have issues I would send it back to the manufacture for a checkup.
I would need to know a what kind of gun it is, what the malfunctions were, what ammo was used and perhaps mags if they are aftermarket. Myself and the other, smarter, members of this forum could use theta info to maybe help you figure this out.
I'd post this in the 1911 forum and ask them :lol:
Seriously though I'd probably would do further testing to weed out the ammo used and I would number the magazines if you haven't already.
Let's say you buy a handgun and want to carry it. You fire 500 rounds of ammo and have three to five malfunctions that are not easily reproducible. What is your next step? Would you ever trust this gun for carry?
I ran into this with an issued Glock 23. Tried a a dozen different mags and 5 brands of ammunition. The thing just wouldn't go 100rnds without 2-3 malfunctions. It was clean/lubed and wasn't shooter error.
In that case I turned it in for another one that ran just fine. The problem gun eventually went back to Glock.
I've had a few problematic S&Ws including several M&Ps and an old 3rd gen 4566. They were all fixed by SW, though I got rid of the M&Ps. Still have the 4566 and its running fine after they re-machined the breech face and a new extractor.
In most cases I'd say give the factory a chance to make it right. If they can't, I don't want a weapon I can't trust.
10mmSpringfield
10-18-14, 05:18
There's not much you can do to non-user-serviceable firearms when they start going to hell, unless you can reliably demonstrate the issue is specifically mag or ammo related. You can bubba the feed ramp and maybe fix the problem--or make it worse if you're not that great with a dremel.
I have had several fantastical failures with Sigs, Glocks, and HKs.
I had feed issues with a Sig P220 that also broke its trigger reset spring. Sig replaced the spring and halfassed polished the feed ramp to the point it was uneven. I never trusted the gun again. I sold it to a range gunsmith.
I had a G21 that would bulge cases then get them stuck in the chamber. Glock replaced the barrel, which then resulted in weird failures to return to battery. Tacticool Lone Wolf barrel fixed the problem. I still use it when I need to have a gun I really don't give a damn about destroying in the mud and snow but now the recoil spring assy is buggering up for some reason and locking up the entire gun.
I had a P30L that I called "the stovepipe" because it would stovepipe just about anything but the hottest +P ammo. HK did some tweaks with the recoil spring assy that made it work with regular pressure 124gr, but it wouldn't work with 115gr, HK said something about how it's a combat pistol and wimpy 115gr is "below spec" or some nonsense.
At least with 1911s I can usually isolate and fix the problem myself--not that I've actually had problems with any of my 1911s...
If i dont trust the gun it gets sold.
Sometimes guns malfunction...this is why we train on malfunction drills.
Sometimes guns malfunction...this is why we train on malfunction drills.
The goal is to get one that doesn't do it that often.
Absolutely. But something wierd now and then shouldn't scare you off. I'll have a malf or two at a match once and a while and it doesn't sour me to a gun. High round count classes is where this is going to be the biggest problem and if you have a problem child it should go away. I don't want a unreliable weapon takeing away from the training. But if it's just a now and again type of thing...I have no problem carrying it. I don't think I've ever had a weapon that hasn't malfunctioned at all, usually it can be traced to ammo or magazines or sun spots... Even my duty gun chokes now and again...and it's a H&K!!! My Colt M4-A1 has malfunctioned during a qual (crappy mag...) but it got cleared and I rolled on. Mechanical things shit the bed sometimes...there are a lot of variables (ammo, mags, dirt/debries, lube or lack there of, environmental conditions, etc...) like one of the other posters said 500 rounds isn't enough for me to shit can a pistol but if you don't trust it carry on...like I said, that's why we train for malfunctions...just one man's opinion.
I get it and completely agree. All my guns have had malfunctions other than my AK74 but I think the answer to the OP should not be deal with it and do more malfunction training. It should be an honest evaluation if the gun is crap or not. If its crap, send it back and the let the manufacture have a go at it and see what it looks like when it comes back.
You need to be able to diagnose the malfunction. Different malfs mean different things. Random malfunctions are not acceptable and the root cause needs to be identified so it can be fixed. If the pistol is set up to run correctly, it will run, because it has to. It doesn't have a choice, it's a machine.
I believe 100% reliabilty is a realistic expectation.
gtmtnbiker98
10-18-14, 12:01
If you shoot enough, you will experience a malfunction.
I would need to know a what kind of gun it is, what the malfunctions were, what ammo was used and perhaps mags if they are aftermarket. Myself and the other, smarter, members of this forum could use theta info to maybe help you figure this out.
This.
Failure2Stop
10-18-14, 14:35
If you shoot enough, you will experience a malfunction.
Yup.
Round count alone does not have a stoppage reduction value.
Frankly, if I couldn't get 500 rounds through the gun without it shitting the bed, I'd get rid of it.
Let's say you buy a handgun and want to carry it. You fire 500 rounds of ammo and have three to five malfunctions that are not easily reproducible. What is your next step? Would you ever trust this gun for carry?
Need more info to make an assessment. Nature of malfunction, new or used used, Model and brand of gun, ammo used, etc to decide it it was worth diagnosing and fixing, or getting rid of it. But no, 5 malfunctions per 500rn would never be a CCW gun until it was diagnosed and fixed for me. Hell, wouldn't even use it for IDPA at 100/1 ratio like that.
If it were a used Taurus, I'd dump it. If it were a new M&P or Glock, I'd see if it could be diagnosed, fixed, re tested.
Life support gear should meet a high standard. When it doesn't, it goes back or gets sold with disclosure.
Don't accept mediocre gear.
Alpha Sierra
10-18-14, 18:01
Couple malfs during the very first 500 rounds? BFD. Keep breaking it in and make sure you aren't using crap ammo.
Malfs every 500 or so no matter what? Get it fixed by a pro or get rid of it.
At the end of the day, if you don't trust it, you shouldn't carry it.
But, I agree with the others... it'd be nice to know the gun and ammo that was used, as well as the type of malfunction.
I normally go with a few hundred rounds of factory ammo first, it that's GTG then I start using my reloads. If I have issues I'll try another 50-100 factories just to make sure. Sometimes I end up having to tweek my loads to make things work properly.
If it won't feed my choice of HP's that's when I'm bothered.
Couple malfs during the very first 500 rounds? BFD. Keep breaking it in and make sure you aren't using crap ammo.
Malfs every 500 or so no matter what? Get it fixed by a pro or get rid of it.
In today's world if you are buying a stock defensive/duty type pistol (in particular) there should be NO reason to have to 'break it in' - every weapon should be tested before being carried - you need to see if the factory has done their job, you need to see where it hits, you need to make sure all mags function properly - so yes, it needs to be fired, but not to be 'broken in.'
What the OP needs to do, as noted by others, is 1) tell us what the weapon is; 2) type of malfunction(s); 3) ammunition used; 3) depending on the type of malfunction if it is isolated to one magazine.
For all we know the OP is using rounds he bought in a brown paper sack at a gun show; on the other hand he may be using Hornady Critical Defense.
He has not posted enough info for folks to be telling him to either dump the weapon or drive on.
JMO.
For all we know the OP is using rounds he bought in a brown paper sack at a gun show; on the other hand he may be using Hornady Critical Defense.
He has not posted enough info for folks to be telling him to either dump the weapon or drive on.
JMO.
Haha, your comment about the brown paper sack ammo reminds me of a story a gunsmith told me. He said he had a customer with a gun that looked alright but wouldn't work. He asked the customer if he was shooting factory ammo. The customer swore up and down that he was only shooting factory ammo. The gunsmith asked to see the ammo and it turned out that the 'factory ammo' was factory brass that had been reloaded about 20 times.:D
The good news is that I don't have any doubts about a particular pistol. I haven't had any malfunctions with any of my carry guns. I do have a Colt 1911 that has been giving me problems but they are being fixed by a very good gunsmith.
I had a Sig Scorpion 1911 that occasionally had an issue of failing to go in to battery. Easy fix, and rather random, with the gun occasionally putting over a hundred rounds though it with no problem, others I could barely get a mag though it before it started having problems. Because this was purchased to be used as a carry/HD/zombies pistol, I really, really wanted to make it work. After researching the problem, I put a heavier recoil spring in it, and switched to a better lubricant. Now she purrs like a kitten. Moral of the story, if you've got a problem, track down the reason, and try and fix it.
Alpha Sierra
10-19-14, 14:05
In today's world if you are buying a stock defensive/duty type pistol (in particular) there should be NO reason to have to 'break it in'
That's your opinion, worth what one pays for it.
That's the deal right there. Send the pistol back to the mothership and carry something else. It's not like we're "one gun Charlie".. When it gets back make it a range gun for awhile.. JMO
Life support gear should meet a high standard. When it doesn't, it goes back or gets sold with disclosure.
Don't accept mediocre gear.
That's your opinion, worth what one pays for it.
And it is a strong one, validated by 3 decades worth of firearms instruction.
A full-size or compact service auto worthy of your life should work 100% out of the box with a broad spectrum of domestically produced SAAMI spec ammunition. My experience: New guns entering service that didn't meet that standard had an underlying issue that required some sort of mechanical corrective action. Some could be nursed along with a given load or light duty, but they generally don't get better on their own.
A subcompact or CCW gun may not perform across as broad a range, so owners will have to determine what's acceptable to them.
Grant started a great thread along these lines. It's a worth a read:
How many rounds until a malfunction is deemed "acceptable?"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?144441-How-many-rounds-until-a-malfunction-is-deemed-quot-acceptable-quot
ChrisCross
10-20-14, 00:09
I beleve in mitigating risk (eliminating it entirely is impossible). If you can't lock down what is wrong/reproduce it I would :
1. Send gun back to maker for repair.
2. If that doesn't work sell it.
If I can't depend on something then I don't want it around me. YMMV
turnburglar
10-20-14, 00:21
I have a follow up question for the: "99% reliability? Send that shit back!" Crowd...
How would one articulate to glock that, at their cost your gun needs to be refurbished or replaced? 5 rounds out of 500 equals 99% reliability. For testing purposes the manufacturer would have to get 3 malfs for any statistical relevance. Do you guys actually expect a manufacturer to sit down and run 300 rounds through your gun to try and diagnose a problem?
This isn't a smartass question at all, but more for my understanding as to what to expect from a CS experience.
For the record my gen3 19 has yet to have any stoppages at ~800 rounds, but I have noticed erratic and sometimes weak ejection.
Depends on the malfunction. Any pistol can malfunction, Glocks, HK included. But a repeatable malfunction? No way, out the door it goes. Recently had a pistol almost through a 2000 round test. When I tried some speed reloads I had to pull the mags out every time. Unacceptable for me so I sold it.
beschatten
10-20-14, 18:42
I have a follow up question for the: "99% reliability? Send that shit back!" Crowd...
How would one articulate to glock that, at their cost your gun needs to be refurbished or replaced? 5 rounds out of 500 equals 99% reliability. For testing purposes the manufacturer would have to get 3 malfs for any statistical relevance. Do you guys actually expect a manufacturer to sit down and run 300 rounds through your gun to try and diagnose a problem?
This isn't a smartass question at all, but more for my understanding as to what to expect from a CS experience.
For the record my gen3 19 has yet to have any stoppages at ~800 rounds, but I have noticed erratic and sometimes weak ejection.
This is why it's important to pick an mfg. with a noteworthy reputation for CS.
Depends on the mfg. Some probably have an assessment checklist to quickly diagnose issues and check for "in-spec" with their mfg. standards. Replace said erroneous parts, test fire, ship back.
If the malfunction is while using reloads, old ammo or lately Blazer Brass i shrug it off. If other ammo, i check the mags and extractor first. If problem persists-sell.
Depends on the gun. I would say at this point after 500 rounds you are done with break in. I would thoroughly clean and lube the pistol and try to get at least 1000 rounds out of it without a malfunction. I would not clean it during that time. Guns I carry I do 2000 rounds. If you continue to still have issues I would send it back to the manufacture for a checkup.
AGREED
Long ago I learned to discard any magazine that I judged defective and not to salvage parts from it. That advice is the best I can give on the subject except to say that if it won't feed quality hardball ammo, then don't expect it to feed hollow points. Some will suggest polishing the chamber. My experience has been that whereas KelTecs may frequently have rough chambers, generally top brand hand guns do not. In the past an exception may have been CZs.
In more than one factory instruction manual I've read that if one has malfunctions, then change ammo brands and try again. Variation in dimension among brands was cited as the reason. I never bought into this rationale but can't refute it based on my experience with ammo besides Blazer.
I'm not really sure just what the term break in means. After I fire 50 rds of +p+ ammo through a 9mm, I expect it to work. So I guess I broke it in, but I ain't sure what I broke. Once I spent a small fortune trying to break in a Karh and never succeeded.
If i dont trust the gun it gets sold.
Sorta scary. I hope you give full disclosure and tell them it malfunctions.
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