26" OAL + SB15 + VFG Clarification

[702Warfighter]

I just finished building my first AR pistol and I wanted some clarification on the whole vfg on a pistol with a oal of 26". I know I can add a vfg to it if it's over 26" but can it be used in conjunction with a sig brace? The brace was made for pistols and since adding a vfg to a pistol with a oal of 26" makes it a non aow or, firearm. Does that change the legality of having a brace on the "firearm"? Any help is appreciated. Thanks

[9mmsteve]

The brace does not count toward length at all. The brace can be used on a pistol or firearm over 26" but it can't be used to get you to over 26". Local and state laws may be different on the brace.

[glock21xxx]

I just finished building my first AR pistol and I wanted some clarification on the whole vfg on a pistol with a oal of 26". I know I can add a vfg to it if it's over 26" but can it be used in conjunction with a sig brace? The brace was made for pistols and since adding a vfg to a pistol with a oal of 26" makes it a non aow or, firearm. Does that change the legality of having a brace on the "firearm"? Any help is appreciated. Thanks

Unless you're in a non NFA friendly state, just SBR the thing. Form 1s are so fast and easy right now. If not, use an AFG on your pistol and call it a day.

[MarkB1]

Just remember - OAL is measured from the end of the buffer tube to the muzzle of the barrel and not the end of the muzzle device. OAL is measured to the end of the muzzle device only if the muzzle device is permanently attached to the barrel (pinned and/or welded).

[702Warfighter]

I have a bcm 11.5 upper with a kak super sig buffer tube so I'm good on the oal. I was just curious if I could use a vfg and a sig brace at the same time since the gun will become a firearm and not a pistol anymore once I add a vfg. I don't like the afg so that's why I wanted a vfg. I would like to go the sbr route but I don't like the fact that I can't go across state lines without permission. Having it a pistol makes it easier. I appreciate the advise though.

[sauceboss]

check your pms.

[702Warfighter]

Thanks for all the info guys I think i finally understand and it's all cleared up.

[Lopro619]

What was the conclusion?

[Cumminspowa]

What was the conclusion?

Yeah I'd like to know also, I have a 10.5" barrelled pistol that has a sb15 brace on it and would like to put a vfg on it if legal also.

[702Warfighter]

You're good to go. The brace does not change what the pistol is. The vfg however does making it a non aow.

[JG007]

is this what everyone is referencing?

at least 26"

AND

not concealed on a person


http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

[Renegade04]

Yeah I'd like to know also, I have a 10.5" barrelled pistol that has a sb15 brace on it and would like to put a vfg on it if legal also.

As long as the OAL (from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the muzzle of the barrel) is 26" or more, then a VFG is okay to use. Remember, a muzzle device does not count in the OAL unless it is permanently attached and any over hang from the SIG Brace does not count either.

[m4fun]

My normally good google-fu is out of alignment as I try to catch up on this one:

1) A pistol(that is a in AR parlance, MUST be under 26" from end of buffer tube to muzzle crown(or end of fixed muzzle break)?
2) Adding a VFG makes aforementioned AR pistol makes it an SBR?

What is the deal with over 26" that allows you to add a VFG? Isn't that no longer a pistol or is that an AOW/SBR or some other weird pistol???

[702Warfighter]

Atf considers under 26" concealable and over to not be easily concealable. It's surprising how many people think the shorter barrel length alone makes it illegal. I've even received pm's from people telling me it's illegal. Once I explain to them and refer them to the Franklin Armory XO 26 where there is a letter from the atf explaining it better, then they understand.

Note: Once a vertical grip is added it is no longer considered a pistol but a NON aow or simply just a firearm. Take off the vfg and it's a pistol again.

[LastRites]

Atf considers under 26" concealable and over to not be easily concealable. It's surprising how many people think the shorter barrel length alone makes it illegal. I've even received pm's from people telling me it's illegal. Once I explain to them and refer them to the Franklin Armory XO 26 where there is a letter from the atf explaining it better, then they understand.

Note: Once a vertical grip is added it is no longer considered a pistol but a NON aow or simply just a firearm. Take off the vfg and it's a pistol again.

On a side note, do not conceal a vertical fore gripped firearm as then it is considered an AOW in the eye's of our big brother. Second to last paragraph, last sentence of the Franklin letter.

[JusticeM4]

This is good info and confirmation.

I might try a Magpul VFG on my 10.5" pistol since its over 26" and see how I like shooting it vs an AFG.

[sauceboss]

Justice you can use an afg on a pistol even under 26 inches. Unless you mean a vfg

[JusticeM4]

Justice you can use an afg on a pistol even under 26 inches. Unless you mean a vfg

No, I meant I will try using a VFG on my 10.5" pistol. I was unsure of this until the clarification and reading the ATF letter.

I have always used AFG's which are legal anyway.

[Koshinn]

This needs to be a sticky. Every couple weeks, usually when the last thread gets buried, a new pops up.

[Face]

This is great info.

Would appreciate a clarification on the 26"+ as it applies to CCW. I've read so many threads trying to confirm my understanding but I have not come across this specific question. If this has been addressed, I either missed the post or misunderstood.

1. Am I correct in understanding thet my PWS MK110P which has the sig brace, a 10.75" barrel, and overall length of 26.75" can utilize a VFG but I am no longer lawfully permitted to conceal it - specifically my example would be to be part of my EDC package but limited to my vehicle.

2. When I remove the grip it remains an AOW due to the length being 26.75". And therefore, I am still not permitted to conceal in my vehicle because it is not technically a pistol/handgun due to its length? The AOW designation is throwing me off and im needing clarification from that perspective. When I purchased this weapon, I had hoped it would be considered the same as my pistol. In Ohio, you must have a CCW permit in order to have a loaded weapon in the vehicle. So I may have mistakenly assumed that since the weapon is called an AR pistol and sold as such from PWS, I could have it as part of my vehicle kit Ive put together for my vehicle and it would be legally considered no different from any normal hand gun.

Any information and clarification would be appreciated.

Thanks much!

[Koshinn]

It's only an AOW with a pistol grip and OAL under 26", or with a pistol grip and OAL over 26" and actually being concealed.

However, a pistol grip always removes it from being a pistol. That is a federal law. CCW is a state thing. States can define pistols or rifles however they want. So ask a lawyer licensed to practice law in your state.

Grant may be able to chime in, being from OH and an expert in firearms, although not a lawyer.

[Face]

Thank you for the added clarification.

I'm not so concerned w the VFG or AFG. I think I understand the ohio law hehe. But what I don't understand is if my pistol length is greater in overall length oft 26" change the atf designation to something other than pistol/hNdgun which would prohibit me then from being used as my ccw in my vehicle.

[Scott in AZ]

Newb Questions: I understand laws vary from state to state , but in general ....


1- For pistols with the Sig style forearm support, is it generally considered to be ATF-compliant to use a vertical fore grip (VFG) or an angled fore grip (AFG) if the overall length (AOL) from end of buffer tube to end of muzzle is 26 inches or more?


2- For pistols with the Sig style forearm support, is it generally considered to be ATF compliant to use an angled fore grip (AFG) if OAL is less than 26 inches?

3- Is the difference based on ATF determination that 26" is the basis for concealable?

Thanks in advance.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/27/dd2474bbe1ea01c8d16f979b16ae7f47.jpg

[Koshinn]

Thank you for the added clarification.

I'm not so concerned w the VFG or AFG. I think I understand the ohio law hehe. But what I don't understand is if my pistol length is greater in overall length oft 26" change the atf designation to something other than pistol/hNdgun which would prohibit me then from being used as my ccw in my vehicle.

You have to check local laws. Again, what the ATF considers a pistol or AOW or firearm has essentially nothing to do with state CCW laws.

[702Warfighter]

Lots of good info added to the thread. I agree it should probably be made a sticky. I'm not trying to conceal a 27+" pistol so I'm OK with the vfg on it and it no longer being a pistol.

[Face]

You have to check local laws. Again, what the ATF considers a pistol or AOW or firearm has essentially nothing to do with state CCW laws.

Thanks again all. Based on what I read from the ohio law is that my weapon is a handgun which would be concealable in my vehicle. I don't really care about the concealable aspect or whether I have a VFG or afg while its in the vehicle. But the primary way to lawfully transport a loaded weapon ready to deploy in a vehicle (at least in Ohio), is to do so under the CCW laws.

If there is someone else w more expertise than my neophyte knowledge of Ohio gun laws has additonal insight, anything added is appreciated. Thanks all!

[Leftie]

This would be a great sticky thread.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but from this discussion it seems that we can draw these points:

An AR type pistol is considered still a pistol even with a brace on it as long as the OAL of the pistol (as measured from end of buffer tube to end of the barrel *not the muzzle device unless permanently attached*) is under 26". In this configuration you are allowed to mount a Magpul AFG while still counting the firearm as a pistol.

An AR type pistol is considered a firearm (not an AOW) if the OAL as measured above is 26" or over, which permits the owner to legally mount a VFG to the pistol without classifying it as an SBR or AOW.


Here are my questions:
The ATF considers any pistol concealable up to 26" OAL length, but as soon as you add a VFG, it is no longer concealable? AFGs are okay though...

If the OAL is 26" or greater, and the AR type pistol is then magically treated as a firearm, and this is measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel, then TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, would you be able to put a real stock on a pistol lower that has an OAL of 26" or more, even though this may contradict the rules of an SBR- could this be done legally speaking by nature that the lower is registered as a pistol and not a rifle? This is purely a hypothetical legality question.

Where do hand-stops and the Lanco Tactical Grip Stop fall in this equation regarding being mounted to pistols?

Needless to say, there are a lot of questions here that seem to need clarification...

[702Warfighter]

This would be a great sticky thread.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but from this discussion it seems that we can draw these points:

An AR type pistol is considered still a pistol even with a brace on it as long as the OAL of the pistol (as measured from end of buffer tube to end of the barrel *not the muzzle device unless permanently attached*) is under 26". In this configuration you are allowed to mount a Magpul AFG while still counting the firearm as a pistol.

An AR type pistol is considered a firearm (not an AOW) if the OAL as measured above is 26" or over, which permits the owner to legally mount a VFG to the pistol without classifying it as an SBR or AOW.

It is still a pistol if it's over 26". If you add a vfg it becomes a firearm. Taking off the vfg makes it a pistol again. The only time it's considered a non aow or a firearm is when your add the vfg. Adding a afg to a pistol 26" or over is still considered a pistol.

[uffdaphil]

Handstops or GTG on any configuration. Just be sure the one you choose has not been deemed a VFG. As far as I know the Lanco has not been ruled taboo.

[Leftie]

Thanks for the great feedback guys. So what technically does the Lanco Grip Stop classify as? AFG? Hand stop? VFG? Or something entirely different?

[Face]

My final area of confusion relates to the ATF guideline that anything up to 26" is concealable. I think that is what throws me off where I'm uncertain as to the meaning. That guideline makes me concerned with regardless of any state law, the ATF is stating that anything over 26" is not considered concealable - so regardless of the local law, that would put me in violation of the ATF guideline if I keep my 26.75" PWS pistol loaded and out of sight while in my vehicle as in Ohio only a person w a valid ccw permit is authorized to transport a weapon as such.

[Ryno12]

I didn't see this posted in this thread yet but here's the ATF's take on adding a VFG to a pistol.

https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html

It may answer some questions...

or possibly create more.

[mdm]

If the OAL is 26" or greater, and the AR type pistol is then magically treated as a firearm, and this is measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel, then TECHNICALLY SPEAKING, would you be able to put a real stock on a pistol lower that has an OAL of 26" or more, even though this may contradict the rules of an SBR- could this be done legally speaking by nature that the lower is registered as a pistol and not a rifle? This is purely a hypothetical legality question.
...

There are no ATF definitions for the length of the barrel or overall length for a weapon to be considered a "pistol" It's all about being designed to fire with one hand and no stock.
If the barrel is less than 16" and it has a stock, it is an SBR regardless of overall length.

Some states have barrel length requirements to be considered a "pistol". Here in Alabama the barrel must be less than 12". This means that in Alabama if I put a vertical grip on my state legal pistol I would then have federal issues.

[702Warfighter]

I didn't see this posted in this thread yet but here's the ATF's take on adding a VFG to a pistol.

https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/041006-openletter-nfa-adding-vertical-fore-grip.html

It may answer some questions...

or possibly create more.

That doesn't address what has already been discussed about the oal. It's pretty clear that if it's over 26" in the eyes of the atf you are good to add a vfg.

[702Warfighter]

There are no ATF definitions for the length of the barrel or overall length for a weapon to be considered a "pistol" It's all about being designed to fire with one hand and no stock.
If the barrel is less than 16" and it has a stock, it is an SBR regardless of overall length.

Some states have barrel length requirements to be considered a "pistol". Here in Alabama the barrel must be less than 12". This means that in Alabama if I put a vertical grip on my state legal pistol I would then have federal issues.

Exactly, That's one thing people still don't get. It has nothing to do with barrel length. Once you add a vfg it is no longer designed to be fired with one hand. If it's oal is 26" or over you can have a vfg and not be subject to nfa/aow laws.

[Ryno12]

It's pretty clear that if it's over 26" in the eyes of the atf you are good to add a vfg.
I'm not seeing where it's "clear".

Exactly, That's one thing people still don't get. It has nothing to do with barrel length. Once you add a vfg it is no longer designed to be fired with one hand. If it's oal is 26" or over you can have a vfg and not be subject to nfa/aow laws.
If OAL was the deciding factor, one would assume that info would be privy to the letter.
This was taken directly from the letter:

"ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch."

[702Warfighter]

I'm not seeing where it's "clear".

If OAL was the deciding factor, one would assume that info would be privy to the letter.
This was taken directly from the letter:

"ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch."

Maybe we're not looking at the same document. Google Franklin Armory XO 26. There is a atf letter pertaining to exactly what the requirements are.

[Ryno12]

Maybe we're not looking at the same document. Google Franklin Armory XO 26. There is a atf letter pertaining to exactly what the requirements are.

I read it.

In the letter I provided, the ATF states that adding a VFG to a pistol no longer classifies it as a pistol but as a firearm now. Since, by adding a VFG to a pistol, the person has now created a firearm which requires a Form 1.

In the Franklin letter, the last paragraph states that the Thompson in question was no longer a pistol with the addition of a VFG, nor was it classified as an AOW because of its OAL.

Technically, by definition, I don't think any AR pistol could ever be considered an AOW, regardless of its OAL, simply because of it having a rifled barrel. (see subsection 'e', last sentence)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

Either way, AOW or not, adding a VFG to a pistol no longer classifies it as a pistol because it is now designed to be fired with two hands.

This is just my take on it & how I interpret the ATF documents. I think we can agree that the ATF isn't even sure that they know what they're talking about. :)

[702Warfighter]

In any case I think I understand what they are trying to get at so I will stick with the vfg on my pistol or "firearm" and carry around the Franklin letter as well as the sb15 letter just in case. My 11.5 from buffer to barrel threads measures roughly 27 ⅞. I think I'm OK and I won't be trying to conceal this AR

[Leftie]

There are no ATF definitions for the length of the barrel or overall length for a weapon to be considered a "pistol" It's all about being designed to fire with one hand and no stock.
If the barrel is less than 16" and it has a stock, it is an SBR regardless of overall length.

Some states have barrel length requirements to be considered a "pistol". Here in Alabama the barrel must be less than 12". This means that in Alabama if I put a vertical grip on my state legal pistol I would then have federal issues.

MDM, thanks for the clarification. This is truly a hornet's nest of legalities...

[Pi3]

how much of a handstop can be put on the bottom of the rail before it is considered a VFG?

[ac130usnsr]

This is all being over thought. Keys to understanding it all;

A. Sig brace irrelevent to any of it.
B. "Concealable"; for ATF means easily concealed on one's person, has nothing to do with CCP/CCW.
C. ATF definition of pistol (no length requirement); designed to be fired with one hand.
D. ATF definition of rifle; with stock, designed to be fired from the shoulder.
E. ATF definition of SBR; rifle with barrel <16".
F. ATF definition of AOW; neither pistol nor rifle, with an OAL <26".
G. ATF definition of firearm; neither a pistol nor rifle, with OAL ≥26".

So, add a VFG to a pistol with an OAL<26" and you have created an illegal AOW (no longer a pistol, now designed to be fired with two hands).

Add a VFG to a pistol with an OAL ≥26" and you have converted a pistol to a firearm (which is not an NFA item).

[uffdaphil]

This is all being over thought. Keys to understanding it all;

A. Sig brace irrelevent to any of it.
B. "Concealable"; for ATF means easily concealed on one's person, has nothing to do with CCP/CCW.
C. ATF definition of pistol (no length requirement); designed to be fired with one hand.
D. ATF definition of rifle; with stock, designed to be fired from the shoulder.
E. ATF definition of SBR; rifle with barrel <16".
F. ATF definition of AOW; neither pistol nor rifle, with an OAL <26".
G. ATF definition of firearm; neither a pistol nor rifle, with OAL ≥26".

So, add a VFG to a pistol with an OAL<26" and you have created an illegal AOW (no longer a pistol, now designed to be fired with two hands).

Add a VFG to a pistol with an OAL ≥26" and you have converted a pistol to a firearm (which is not an NFA item).

Bravo Herkyman. I wish I could be so concise.

[sig chaser]

Here is my issue with all of this. Most of us use the VFG as more of a hand stop then an actual vertical grip as we know that holding it normally is actually pretty unstable. Hand stops that are designed to be hand stops are completely legal on all lengths (or at least that's my understanding). So why run a VFG? Honestly if it's this confusing and convoluted to us (a bunch of gun people) how confused do you think the local police officer will be? Sure you will be right but you will likely still take the ride and have to sort it out later. All for an item that you probably don't use as intended anyway. To each their own but it doesn't make sense to me.

[kruzan]

I have been pondering this issue also, and while I agree with sig chaser on the VFG not necessarily being grabbed with fist on an AR upper, it seems nice and tempting because you can get all the fingers behind it using the BCM short angled vertical grip.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i430/kruzan2/DSC_3121_zps18306aaf.jpg (http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/kruzan2/media/DSC_3121_zps18306aaf.jpg.html)

This .22lr Colt (9mm) upper I am building with Taccom bolt has the 9.5" Taccom barrel muzzle 1/2" inside the 9" UTG HG. So my question is on the overall length measurement as to why overall might not mean overall? (Maddmacs comp excluded in this case cause I want to remove it to put in a sonic cleaner.)

I am going with the newer sig brace pistol buffer tube from Mas Defense, so being 9" it looks like I might get or I can get it to right at 26" from the tube end to the end of the fore-end or HG. If I really want to do this without potential legal issues I believe it is only a $5 tax stamp however likely only if I make the 26" OVL design? This build has me thinking about boundary's in that using the longer pistol/firearm build, the VFG, the sig brace, and even the $400 Tac-Com trigger can make for interesting possibilities (not sure that trigger would work with a .22LR though). I will likely just go with the hand stop or nothing and not press my luck. This is the barrel length I went with though.

[702Warfighter]

The oal is from the back of the buffer tube to the threads of the barrel. Sorry if I misread or didn't understand your post. My 11.5 with a kak super sig buffer tube measures at 27 7/8 so I think I fall somewhere in line with the Franklin armory xo26.

[kruzan]

The oal is from the back of the buffer tube to the threads of the barrel. Sorry if I misread or didn't understand your post. My 11.5 with a kak super sig buffer tube measures at 27 7/8 so I think I fall somewhere in line with the Franklin armory xo26.

So the overall length is the underall length, makes sense.:p Need to find good keymod hand stop.

My appologies, it would'nt actually be 26" to the end of the HG anyway. 9" tube, plus 7.25" receiver, plus 9.25" rail = 25.5", minus 1/2" to barrel = 25"

[uffdaphil]

The oal is from the back of the buffer tube to the threads of the barrel. Sorry if I misread or didn't understand your post. My 11.5 with a kak super sig buffer tube measures at 27 7/8 so I think I fall somewhere in line with the Franklin armory xo26.

It's not "to the threads". It's to the far end of the barrel without the unpinned muzzle device.

[702Warfighter]

It's not "to the threads". It's to the far end of the barrel without the unpinned muzzle device.

Sorry that's what I meant. The top of the threads at the muzzle with with no muzzle device.

[JusticeM4]

This is all being over thought. Keys to understanding it all;

A. Sig brace irrelevent to any of it.
B. "Concealable"; for ATF means easily concealed on one's person, has nothing to do with CCP/CCW.
C. ATF definition of pistol (no length requirement); designed to be fired with one hand.
D. ATF definition of rifle; with stock, designed to be fired from the shoulder.
E. ATF definition of SBR; rifle with barrel <16".
F. ATF definition of AOW; neither pistol nor rifle, with an OAL <26".
G. ATF definition of firearm; neither a pistol nor rifle, with OAL ≥26".

So, add a VFG to a pistol with an OAL<26" and you have created an illegal AOW (no longer a pistol, now designed to be fired with two hands).

Add a VFG to a pistol with an OAL ≥26" and you have converted a pistol to a firearm (which is not an NFA item).

Thanks for summarizing all that.

Unfortunately some of these technicalities are confusing for many and not always cut and dry.

[DWood]

Just remember (for Federal purposes) that a pistol 26" or greater OAL is still just a pistol and doesn't become a firearm until you put a vertical grip on it.

G. ATF definition of firearm; neither a pistol nor rifle, with OAL ≥26".