View Full Version : New SBR and Optics Conundrum
Howdy,
For my many years in the Army, I ran Aimpoints. I love them. I currently run an Aimpoint PRO on my Daniel Defense and enjoy it immensely. I just got an SBR to pursue more CQB training, and, in all honesty, because I wanted to; I've wanted one for a long time. It has a 10/5. Since it was an SBR, I really wanted to give an EOTECH a trying. I was able to get an XPS2-2 (The two dot reticle) for a song.
I don't know much about the XPS2-2. The second dot obviously looks like a viable method of distance shot compensation. I haven't done the maths yet, but I am sure I could figure out the nuances in a short afternoon. My only concern is that some people are saying that the dual dot reticle is best suited for a magnifiers.
I have a few questions:
1) Is the EOTech best suited for the DDM4v7. I personally doubt it. I wanted the EOTech for the FOV on an SBR for CQB purposes.
2) When zeroing the EOTech, is it the same as any other teach? If you adjust windage, is windage adjusted for both dots simultaneously (I hope so)
3) What are the biggest benefits of the reticle with two dots? I don't find it a distraction. It really depends on the zero I select, but it appears that once I range a target, determine bullet drop and select the correct dot.
I am familiar with BDCs on long range rifles, but this is a much more simplistic neasr
Is there anything I should know prior to running a dual dot EOTech.
First off, there are some very good sticky threads here on zero theory, and you should definitely read them, they helped me out a lot. I have the same optic mounted on a 16", and through experimentation found that the two dot is actually pretty versatile. using the Army standard 25 / 300m zero, I found that if you zero the Lower dot at 25m, the top (center) dot will be pretty much right on from 75-150m or so, as the bullet is at the peak of its trajectory.
Conversely, you can zero the top dot at 100m, and try various ranges to confirm what range that zeroes the lower dot at.
I never found myself in "need" of a magnifier, as the dots are extremely fine (1moa?) and therefore don't cover the target as much as some other optics.
when you make adjustments, it shifts the whole reticle pattern (large outer ring and both dots) so no worries there. For CQB, you can just use the large outer reticle for quick acquisition, realizing that it will hit below the second dot at very short ranges. Hope this is helpful, and enjoy your optic!
I just got the Eotech XPS2-0 (one dot in the ring), and love it. I really expected to hate the Eotech, and really just bought it as a toy, but it's becoming my favorite.
Take your load of choice, which should be something in the Mk262 realm, and go find out where that second dot is ranged at when you zero the first dot at 100.
I like the idea of the second dot, but got the best price on the regular reticle. We shoot enough long range where I'm pretty instinctive on hold over out to 300.
I just got the Eotech XPS2-0 (one dot in the ring), and love it. I really expected to hate the Eotech, and really just bought it as a toy, but it's becoming my favorite.
More so than Aimpoints? Been holding out for the T2s but the EXPS intrigues me for whatever reason and I keep hearing positive things.
Boba Fett v2
10-21-14, 21:41
The EXPS series is GTG and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. I ran an EXPS2 on my SBR for a while, but sold it because I wanted one with NV capability. My next build will be wearing an EXPS3-2. I think it's a perfect optic solution for SBRs and close-quarter applications.
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x160/308sako/115inchSBR.jpg
My solution, set it and forget it. Ranges well and is a slight handicap under 25 meters
More so than Aimpoints? Been holding out for the T2s but the EXPS intrigues me for whatever reason and I keep hearing positive things.
I don't run any T1s due to the price. I just can't wrap my head around 600+ for an RDS without a mount. I think the T1 is a better fighting/combat sight. But for as low as $450 and no need to buy a mount? The XPS are a good option.
I greatly prefer the analog switching on the Aimpoints. The digital mushy buttons and the timeout on the Eotech don't inspire the greatest confidence, but once you're up and going, the EO is a good shooting sight.
Is Vortex out of the question for you?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have two SBRs, one with an EXPS Eotech and the other with a T-1. I strongly prefer the Eotech over the T-1.
http://ssequine.net/sbrboth2s.jpg
I have two SBRs, one with an EXPS Eotech and the other with a T-1. I strongly prefer the Eotech over the T-1.
I could never grasp that until buying an EO. I honestly bought it so I could say I didn't like it based on actual use, rather than just looking through someone else's. But now the big ugly turd has grown on me quite a bit.
After reading this thread, I am glad I snagged the deal I did. I think the 65MOA circle and two dots is a pretty cool setup, even for an SBR; it gives me a nice reference point (bottom of circle) for extremely close range.
The range and some courses will tell which I prefer, but the EOTech seems very nice so far.
I tried dry fire drilling that bottom of the circle method at 5ish yards in the house... I'm just so hard coded at holding over with Irons and Aimpoints that my brain slows down trying to reconcile 1. finding the bottom of the circle and 2. making sure I hold it on target instead of over.
I'm not against that method... it's just not what I'm used to.
When you all say the EO growing on you or you prefer the EO over the T/H1……what are you referring to?
I am somewhat in the same boat…..I have three personal Aimpoints T1 4moa, T1 2moa, and H1 and my duty is an older Comp M2 and I feel I am slowing down in getting off the first shot. Yeah driving a desk has a lot to do with it, but I had an original EO (long one) and it failed on me, they replaced the circuitry and I sold it.
You all are making me think I need to try the XPS2.
So those with the both….do you see an improvement in getting the dot on target quicker with the EO?
for a rough sight alignment up close, I would think the 65 MOA ring and the big window will be lighting fast.
anything else you see as an improvement, I would appreciate it.
TIA
The big ring and dot are quick to pick up for sure. With no downside on a longer range, aimed, slow fire shot. As bulky as the EO is... when looking through it, your target is less occluded by knobs and batter compartments.
If I buy another one, I'll go EXPS to get the taller optic that will work with fixed irons. The XPS is a little low. It works good with flip ups, but would probably be a pain with my normal cutdown carry handle rear sight.
Another thing I like is that it runs on 123a batts. So the spare batts I keep in my stock or where ever are interchangeable with my sight and light.
I prefer the EXPS models because I prefer lower third co-witness, like the quick-detach lever, and need side buttons because I occasionally use a magnifier. I don't find the Eotechs particularly bulky compared to my Aimpoint PRO, especially considering that BAK sticking off to the side of the PRO.
If the price of the EXPS is a concern, consider the OPMOD at Optics Planet. It's an EXPS3 with the NV button disabled. Otherwise, same specs. It's a better deal at $529/$549 if you don't need night vision. I'm not sure what the difference between the Eotech EXPS3 and EXPS2 is, but I note that that is a difference in construction, with the Eotech EXPS2 only having a submersibility to 10 feet. I realize getting wet isn't a big deal, but the difference in depth ratings makes me wonder about the other aspects of construction.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/l3-eotech-opmod-exps2-holographic-sights-limited-edition-red-dot-sights-exps2-0-opmod.html
http://images2.opticsplanet.com/755-405-ffffff/opplanet-eotech-opmod-exps2-holographic-red-dot-sight.jpg
thanks for the info.
I like that one too!!!!!
now to find some cash!
Zeroed and tested the gun today--absolutely awesome. I think I am sold on the two dot reticle. It takes away the guesswork with the aimpoint. Experience can solve the issue, but I find the two dot an elegant solution. I especially like the 7m bottom of the circle aiming.
now to find some cash!
No kidding.
Zeroed and tested the gun today--absolutely awesome. I think I am sold on the two dot reticle. It takes away the guesswork with the aimpoint. Experience can solve the issue, but I find the two dot an elegant solution. I especially like the 7m bottom of the circle aiming.
I'd love to try a 2 dot out at our long range shooting spot.... just to see at what range POI is out of a few guns. I do like Bullet Drop reticles.
I'd love to try a 2 dot out at our long range shooting spot.... just to see at what range POI is out of a few guns. I do like Bullet Drop reticles.
Just makes me wonder if L3 could actually put a BDC tree (something like the NF LV-Reticle) on the holosight as an option, and bundle that package with a QD magnifier. It wouldn't have to be much, but I'm sure there's a market for that.
Overall, I still prefer the single dot 65MOA type holosight reticle, I just tried too many times on N-cell variants to really want to invest back in them. They run really awesome, but I'm exactly as quick with micro aimpoints now from cumulative time spent running them.
I have two SBRs, one with an EXPS Eotech and the other with a T-1. I strongly prefer the Eotech over the T-1.
My experience is similar. Having shot both a lot, i definitely prefer the Eotech.
Zeroed and tested the gun today--absolutely awesome. I think I am sold on the two dot reticle. It takes away the guesswork with the aimpoint. Experience can solve the issue, but I find the two dot an elegant solution. I especially like the 7m bottom of the circle aiming.
Once you zero'd the middle dot, at what range was the second dot then zero'd?
I have run Eotechs for a long time. I had the 2-2 and sold it. I didn't like the second dot. It was very close at 500 with a 200m zero on the center dot. On the XPS series I run Larue risers to get the height up.
I am currently running an EXPS on one gun, and an XPS with magnifier on another gun.
As for the transition mentioned from hold over with Aimpoints to using the Eo reticle, I transitioned by holding over but took not of where the tick mark was and slowly worked into it. Now I feel like I am guessing when I run an Aimpoint at work.
Battery life on the XPS is proving to be very good so far. I've had mine a month, and I run the thing 8 hours each day. I pulled the battery out a few days back, and it tested 100% on my ZTS tester.
Battery life on the XPS is proving to be very good so far. I've had mine a month, and I run the thing 8 hours each day. I pulled the battery out a few days back, and it tested 100% on my ZTS tester.
When the battery begins to get low, the reticle blinks when you turn it on. I've had mine blink for weeks before the battery actually went TU. Plenty of warning.
I have used Aimpoints for over 10 years. In the past two years...I have had difficulty getting a crisp sight picture with a 2moa dot. Well...what do you know...my eyes have gone to crap. I have been tuning down the dot to just visible as an effort to reduce the "bloom" of the dot..and that has worked well. Recently, i had the opportunity to pick up a used Trijicon TA44SG-10. All I can say is WOW. The 1.5x took a little getting use to...but it is so clear and crisp, it's like getting new eyes. Once again, I can see the reticle. It does lack in the whole being in a dark area and looking into a brighter area, but it still works fine for my purposes. Not a true "CQB" optic, but plenty good for my range. Anyway, thought I would throw this out there..anybody else have any experience with these 1.5X ACOGs?
Stick with the Aimpoint. If you are having trouble seeing the dot crisply, then mount it further down the rail. Problem solved.
'nuff said.
I tried the further down the rail idea..it worked for a while...Still couldn't get past the astigmatism causing it to bloom out.
LASIK...'nuff said.
If a single red dot it too much of a problem, a big old honking Eotech holographic image ain't going to be much better, just more to "bloom" for you.
I found the etched reticle of the ACOG's remain sharp in contrast to any of the electronic projected reticles. Just my .02.
I'm an EXPS2 user also. I don't see a downside to EOTech's.
Singlestack Wonder
11-24-14, 13:54
I too have used the ACOG TA44SR-10. Perfectly clear reticle. The 1.5x was actually an advantage at both close and distant targets. Only drawback is shooting from a dark area into a bright area. Illumination disappears, tritium is not bright enough, and the black reticle is difficult to see. If Trijicon would produce an LED version at a reasonable price, there would be a legit competitor to the RDS market.
I'm an EXPS2 user also. I don't see a downside to EOTech's.
If EOTech would get their shit together, and I was designing the thing... Well, first it would have an 8 hour on setting and a motion activated setting. I would also lower the EXPS about .1" from where it is now. Besides that, I think it is a near ideal sight except it is a bit on the chunky (size and weight) for those that care. I have thrown an old XPS out of a truck, ran it over, smash it against a tree repeaditly, shot it with a shotgun twice (or three times), and then washed in with a hose to get the mud off. The thing that broke was the ADM mount which caused it to loose zero. The sight itself was fine.
If EOTech would get their shit together, and I was designing the thing... Well, first it would have an 8 hour on setting and a motion activated setting. I would also lower the EXPS about .1" from where it is now. Besides that, I think it is a near ideal sight except it is a bit on the chunky (size and weight) for those that care.
I note that my Aimpoint PRO weighs exactly 13 oz, compared to the stated weight of an EXPS2 which weighs 11.2 ounces or my EXPS3 which weight 11.4 oz. As to chunkiness...their ain't nuthin' svelte about the PRO, especially with that big ass knob sticking off to the side. Might also be worth noting that if you turn the EXPS2 sight on by pressing the UP brightness button, it stays on for 8 hours.
I note that my Aimpoint PRO weighs exactly 13 oz, compared to the stated weight of an EXPS2 which weighs 11.2 ounces or my EXPS3 which weight 11.4 oz. As to chunkiness...their ain't nuthin' svelte about the PRO, especially with that big ass knob sticking off to the side. Might also be worth noting that if you turn the EXPS2 sight on by pressing the UP brightness button, it stays on for 8 hours.
I will hold the sarcasm and say that a 4/8 power button is different than my wanted 8/movement button. Ditch the 4 hour all together.
I will hold the sarcasm and say that a 4/8 power button is different than my wanted 8/movement button. Ditch the 4 hour all together.
Yeah... not sure what the 4 hour is supposed to accomplish. Motion would be nice.. and default to last setting too. I have that motion activate on my chinese holosun, and it's kind of cool.
Even motion activation is normally associated with at least a brief time limit from 5 to 30 minutes of no movement or vibration before shutdown. When lying prone I can sometimes watch my scope illumination shut off after 5 minutes but even a finger tap on the stock will wake it back up. Do you guys have a strong feeling on how long you think the motionless period should be before shutdown? Hint: if it was zero the thing would constantly flicker during use like a thermostat with no hysteresis.
I will hold the sarcasm and say that a 4/8 power button is different than my wanted 8/movement button. Ditch the 4 hour all together.
I will hold sarcasm too and observe that you said "Well, first it would have an 8 hour on setting...". It does.
Even motion activation is normally associated with at least a brief time limit from 5 to 30 minutes of no movement or vibration before shutdown. When lying prone I can sometimes watch my scope illumination shut off after 5 minutes but even a finger tap on the stock will wake it back up. Do you guys have a strong feeling on how long you think the motionless period should be before shutdown? Hint: if it was zero the thing would constantly flicker during use like a thermostat with no hysteresis.
My holosun is 8 hours just as if you'd manually turned it on. I just pick it up and slap the side of the gun.
Outlander Systems
11-25-14, 11:50
LASIK...'nuff said.
If a single red dot it too much of a problem, a big old honking Eotech holographic image ain't going to be much better, just more to "bloom" for you.
Truth.
While my vision isnt bad enough to justify lenses or LASIK, I can't use electronic red dots anymore. The EOTech turns into a red pile of spaghetti and the Aimpoints turn into a comet.
The only optics my eyes can see crisply are Trijicon ACOGs and Accupoints.
I've been shooting more and more with the XPS2-2 and find it more and more intuitive and useful. I zeroed the center dot at 25M (1.2 inch low to emulate 50M zero--not ideal, but I haven't been out to a larger range yet). I believe the second dot is approximately 8 MOA lower (Please correct me if I am wrong), which would make it suitable for ranges from 300M to 500M, though at those ranges, I usually use magnified optics or irons; I rarely use an RDS at those ranges. I also don't feel comfortable putting a magnifier on an SBR--its like using a hammer as a screwdriver. That is why I was initially considering running the Aimpoint on the SBR and the Eotech with magnifier on my Daniel Defense DDM4V7. But the Eotech really shines on the SBR; it is so visually comfortable and unobtrusive
The Eotech is great for distance estimation, its use a BDC, the speed of target acquisition in close quarters and the 2-2, especially, for its versatility. Overall, though, I still trust the Aimpoint more. If I had to pick only one optic, especially for , it would be the Aimpoint.
Eotech on the 16 inch AR with magnifier and Aimpoint PRO on the SBR? Each setup has its own advantages; my indecision on this matter is paralyzing.
I will hold sarcasm too and observe that you said "Well, first it would have an 8 hour on setting...". It does.
Omitting the second half of the sentence doesn't lend your cause credibility. The and part was pivotal
Dude, it's ok. You can have the point.
The big ring and dot are quick to pick up for sure. With no downside on a longer range, aimed, slow fire shot. As bulky as the EO is... when looking through it, your target is less occluded by knobs and batter compartments.
If I buy another one, I'll go EXPS to get the taller optic that will work with fixed irons. The XPS is a little low. It works good with flip ups, but would probably be a pain with my normal cutdown carry handle rear sight.
Another thing I like is that it runs on 123a batts. So the spare batts I keep in my stock or where ever are interchangeable with my sight and light.
Mark,
The XPS works with Magpul Pro MBUS?
I had an ACOG TA33, Aimpoint PRO and an XPS 2-0 and I liked the Eotech best by a mile for 0-100 yard work. For >100 yards, add a flip to side magnifier, and you're golden. It doesn't get any faster up close. Putting the target inside the circle is just automatic for me.
Mark,
The XPS works with Magpul Pro MBUS?
I'm not Mark but I run an EXPS 3-0 with Magpul MBUS Pros and they work well together.
I'm not Mark but I run an EXPS 3-0 with Magpul MBUS Pros and they work well together.
Steve,
Doesn't the EXPS and XPS sit at different heights? Not sure if that makes a difference? Thanks for the reply.
Steve,
Doesn't the EXPS and XPS sit at different heights? Not sure if that makes a difference? Thanks for the reply.
I'm not Steve, but yes, the EXPS has a built-in 7mm riser and obligates a lower-third co-witness. XPS is lower and allows absolute co-witness. Both work fine with the MBUS, but I'm not sure that a magnifier will clear an MBUS without its 7mm riser.
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