View Full Version : Rumor: H&K USA Has Been Sold?!?!?!
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/22/rumor-hk-usa-sold/
Just received this from Google + Circle.
Walther would be a good thing? I guess I am not seeing the broad picture of manufacturing or marketing.
There's a 18 pg thread on this over at HKpro, So far, from reading that, it's still a lot of speculation, with nothing confirmed either way.. Supposedly,(via a link provided in the thread at HKpro, which I didn't read) some HK people at the top over in Germany got caught with their fingers in the cookie jar, I'm assuming charges are pending, Also HK Germany is/has been in financial trouble for some time, being 300m in debt in Europe alone (according to linked article in HK pro thread that showed HK's financial statements) I don't mean to start another speculation thread, but, what few nuggets if info I did get from the HK pro thread, suggest that something is indeed afoot.. Those of you who like to speculate, may want to pick up some VP9's etc, while they're easily available..
brickboy240
10-22-14, 11:18
As long as SIG or Taurus did not buy them...it might not be so tragic.
Does this mean we will see US made VP-9s that don't run as well as their German counterparts...ala SIG Sauer? LOL
-brickboy240
Walther would be a good thing? I guess I am not seeing the broad picture of manufacturing or marketing.
Pretty sure sam was joking.
If the rumor is true I hope it went to a good company. Id like the quality to hold out long enough for me to get a vp9 and some mags lol.
As long as SIG or Taurus did not buy them...it might not be so tragic.
Does this mean we will see US made VP-9s that don't run as well as their German counterparts...ala SIG Sauer? LOL
-brickboy240
Well, my HK45t, and 45ct both have "Made in USA" on the frames..But, as I understand it, Really, it should be "assembled in USA"(with German parts) Anyway, they both run just fine...
Pretty sure sam was joking.
As noted by the smilie. You win the prize. The other guy should buy you a latte. :)
JBecker 72
10-22-14, 11:23
How is a gun company $300M in debt now a days?
All I want to know is when they will start selling 14.5" 416 uppers commercially.
Not surprised, had heard rumblings about H&K possibly getting sold going back now several years from people I know in the industry. Will have to wait and see whether this is going to be a good thing or bad thing though. Hoping for good though, perhaps we may see more H&K designs enter/manufactured in the US that we will get access to.
How is a gun company $300M in debt now a days?
All I want to know is when they will start selling 14.5" 416 uppers commercially.
I don't know.. Getting your debt refinanced a couple times, coupled with poor business decisions would probably do it
As noted by the smilie. You win the prize. The other guy should buy you a latte. :)
Since I am not HK savy, I must beg ignorance (lack of knowledge). Hot coffee or a cold brew is on the table.
Reading Freedom Group wants to sell due to huge debts. Nobody willing to pay the $$$$$.99
How is a gun company $300M in debt now a days?
All I want to know is when they will start selling 14.5" 416 uppers commercially.
Have you looked at Colt lately? They have $250M in bonds that are now labeled as "junk"...
<TED>
teutonicpolymer
10-22-14, 13:58
How is a gun company $300M in debt now a days?
All I want to know is when they will start selling 14.5" 416 uppers commercially.
I'd say it was because they priced themselves out of the competition and did not cater to consumers.
I'd say it was because they priced themselves out of the competition and did not cater to consumers.
Here is hoping for a polymer P7M8!
So much for that civvie-legal G36 I wanted.... Oh, well, I'd probably have to sell a kidney to afford one anyways at H&K's pricing.
JBecker 72
10-22-14, 15:44
I'd say it was because they priced themselves out of the competition and did not cater to consumers.
I didn't have a problem forking over the money for my P30 or P2000SK.
RAM Engineer
10-22-14, 16:38
I'd say it was because they priced themselves out of the competition and did not cater to consumers.
Low price and market share are not always the only way to be successful. Look at Apple. Profitability can be had without attaining either of those things.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-22-14, 20:12
H&K was always reaching for the brass ring and never worked hard enough on civilian sales. I hope they can restucture with an eye towards. (on the civilian side)
1. Civy HK416, std profile $1500
3.Civy HK417, std profile $1800
3. VP9/VP9k, VP9SK
4. HK45/and C
I have to say, this might be true. That $200 rebate is mighty fishy. Sounds like a stock blowout.
JBecker 72
10-22-14, 20:21
Civy HK416, std profile $1500
Shut up and take my money!
H&K was always reaching for the brass ring and never worked hard enough on civilian sales. I hope they can restucture with an eye towards. (on the civilian side)
1. Civy HK416, std profile $1500
3.Civy HK417, std profile $1800
3. VP9/VP9k, VP9SK
4. HK45/and C
I have to say, this might be true. That $200 rebate is mighty fishy. Sounds like a stock blowout.
Seriously Greg? With the prices LMT - Larue - KAC -DD charge for NA based production, you seriously think HK should cost as much as S&W or Ruger?
JBecker 72
10-22-14, 20:26
I don't see why a 416 couldn't be a sub $2000 rifle. Colt can do it with their 6940P, though I've never seen one of those for sale anywhere.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-22-14, 20:37
HKguns,,
Well, I am dreaming obviously. Obviously, they had a crapload of profit margin in the P30 (considering the VP9s price and the $200 rebates). They have to price these things a little more reasonably.
HKguns,,
Well, I am dreaming obviously. Obviously, they had a crapload of profit margin in the P30 (considering the VP9s price and the $200 rebates). They have to price these things a little more reasonably.
Yes, but just imagine what the NA MFG's mentioned above are making on their stuff!
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-22-14, 20:51
God, I'd bet DD and Colt are making money by the truck load on each gun. Of course, I think Colt walks out the back door and sets the money on fire.
Of course, I think Colt walks out the back door and sets the money on fire.
Ha! Thanks for the laugh. :) I think you're right on that one.
SeriousStudent
10-22-14, 21:14
H&K was always reaching for the brass ring and never worked hard enough on civilian sales. I hope they can restucture with an eye towards. (on the civilian side)
1. Civy HK416, std profile $1500
3.Civy HK417, std profile $1800
3. VP9/VP9k, VP9SK
4. HK45/and C
I have to say, this might be true. That $200 rebate is mighty fishy. Sounds like a stock blowout.
I'd sell one of Greg's kidney's for a VP9K.
JBecker 72
10-22-14, 21:16
I still want to see the P30SK happen.
Maybe I am showing my ignorance, but who cares about who owns HK USA? If the product is designed, tested and made in Germany, how is it relevant who distributes it here as long as lines of distribution are preserved?
HK germany is in the shitter, future uncertain.
leibermuster
10-22-14, 22:48
Someone will bail them out.
I know, they have a very poorly structured debt. That said, sale of HK USA is irrelevant, it won't keep HK Gmbh afloat or take it under. One would assume that if someone has enough money to buy HK USA, they have enough sense to buy it as a business opportunity, not a prized artifact.
Whether HK Germany lives or takes a dive is a separate subject; if latter is the case, someone will buy it for cheap. As long as we're not hearing that Norinco or Izhmash are buying HK Gmbh, I am not concerned.
MountainRaven
10-22-14, 23:11
My understanding is that HK Germany owns HK USA.
If this is true, this is unfortunate. I foresee a Winchester-esque pre-64/post-64 drop in quality from H&K products.
If this is true, this is unfortunate. I foresee a Winchester-esque pre-64/post-64 drop in quality from H&K products.
Why would that happen if guns were still to be made in Deutschland?
MountainRaven
10-22-14, 23:29
Why would that happen if guns were still to be made in Deutschland?
Allow me to specify: If HK Deutschland is bought out, I expect a drop in quality.
If HK USA has been bought out, I would expect a drop in the quality of customer service. And a drop in quality of US-produced H&K products or H&K products with significant US-made components, like the HK45, HK45C, MR556A1, and MR762A1. Might also kill the HK293.
If I had the cash I'd buy HK in a heartbeat...
It would be glorious.
So if HK Germany folds and HK USA is bought or gets the funding to go on their own it could be a blessing. We could get all the best HKs in civilian form. MP5s, and G36s for everyone!!!
M4C group buy for 51% of the shares? Then we can dictate what is produced! I want a semi auto MP7 and a semi auto beltfed HK21 :)
I know, they have a very poorly structured debt.
Originally most of debt is from original loan took by current HK owners to buy it out, that is secured on HK assets. Also they lost some money with 2008 crisis. Plus owners seem to have some pressing needs for cash. HK do not seem to loose money on their core business, but they must generate enough to pay debts or get roll out. Also for now German Army can not afford to allow HK go down crash way, but they can find solution with not keeping it as it is. Anyway, time will tell.
When Polish ZM "Łucznik" went down, everybody was thinking that it end of firearms manufacture. But new company FB "Łucznik" (Fabryka Broni Radom - now) was established. They bought best assets left after ZM, took over military delivery of Beryl and now they are much better. Same might happen to HK and even be a good thing.
H&K was always reaching for the brass ring and never worked hard enough on civilian sales. I hope they can restucture with an eye towards. (on the civilian side)
1. Civy HK416, std profile $1500
3.Civy HK417, std profile $1800
3. VP9/VP9k, VP9SK
4. HK45/and C
I have to say, this might be true. That $200 rebate is mighty fishy. Sounds like a stock blowout.
When pigs fly and hell freezes over.....whichever comes first!
M4C group buy for 51% of the shares? Then we can dictate what is produced! I want a semi auto MP7 and a semi auto beltfed HK21 :)
HA! M4C wouldn't be able to agree on which TP to use in the crapper, much less which civilian version of HK goodness to produce. :)
Alpha Sierra
10-23-14, 07:22
LOL @ HK
Doc. Holiday
10-23-14, 13:31
It's probably going to be at least another couple weeks before we actually hear any real news on this.
I highly doubt HK GmbH would ever disappear. Their products are popular to various militaries.
If they were to go under however, what would H&K USA make? Everything HK USA makes AFAIK was designed by HK GmbH.
Maybe Germany could nationalize HK GmbH?
Knightsofnee
10-23-14, 19:00
The ownership of FN seems to work for the Walloons...
MountainRaven
10-23-14, 20:36
I highly doubt HK GmbH would ever disappear. Their products are popular to various militaries.
If they were to go under however, what would H&K USA make? Everything HK USA makes AFAIK was designed by HK GmbH.
Maybe Germany could nationalize HK GmbH?
That wouldn't be good. Parts of the German government have been trying to shut HK down.
That wouldn't be good. Parts of the German government have been trying to shut HK down.
Is that that whole UN no guns for civilians grumblings I keep reading about?
MountainRaven
10-23-14, 22:04
Is that that whole UN no guns for civilians grumblings I keep reading about?
This (http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/09/23/349641603/germanys-new-economy-minister-takes-aim-at-arms-exports) would be the most recent news I've heard.
"[German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel] and his supporters complain that far too often German arms sales are to non-NATO or non-EU countries. That's led the minister to hold up hundreds of weapons exports since he took office in December 2013, while also pressuring German arms manufacturers to merge with other European firms."
I read that and I think to myself that they should be putting way more emphasis on fixing their lame export laws and focusing more on the American civilian market to bolster sales in exchange for not selling to questionable entities.
MountainRaven
10-24-14, 00:26
I read that and I think to myself that they should be putting way more emphasis on fixing their lame export laws and focusing more on the American civilian market to bolster sales in exchange for not selling to questionable entities.
Not sure.
One of the guys interviewed was complaining about how often they see H&K weapons in the hands of terrorists.*
On the surface, I don't disagree with Germany keeping better track of what guns they are selling to whom, when it comes to states and non-state organizations. But I do agree that Germany could off-set any loss of sales to third-world shitholes, I mean non-NATO, non-EU countries by revamping their export laws with regard to sales to lawful, private citizens.
*The specific weapon cited being the G3. Which has been or is currently being produced under license for decades in Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, and Mexico. All of which have problems with weapons slipping out of their armories and into the hands of terrorists and criminal organizations. We can probably say for certain that some of those weapons were intentionally given to groups like Hezbollah (by Iran) and the Taliban (by Pakistan). In addition to those arms sold to Saudi Arabia, which have undoubtedly been given to ISIS, al-Qaeda, and other Wahhabist one-time and current favorites. Which means, bluntly, that no new export restrictions can or will prevent the G3 and similar arms (like MP5s) from either falling into the hands of terrorists and criminals or being given to the same by current and former H&K licensees.
That wouldn't be good. Parts of the German government have been trying to shut HK down.
Aside from a few crazy SPDs, not really. More like prevent from seeing on TV well funded terrorists using G36Cs.
brushy bill
10-24-14, 14:28
Not sure.
One of the guys interviewed was complaining about how often they see H&K weapons in the hands of terrorists.*
*The specific weapon cited being the G3.
I hope someday there is a US produced G3. I would own a couple.
brickboy240
10-24-14, 15:25
Go ahead and move all HK production to Texas. We could use the jobs and you know all gun companies will end up here some day anyhow. LOL
RAM Engineer
10-24-14, 16:45
Go ahead and move all HK production to Texas. We could use the jobs and you know all gun companies will end up here some day anyhow. LOL
Except for the ones that are moving to Alabama and Tennessee. And isn't HK USA's customer support center in Trussville, AL currently?
Except for the ones that are moving to Alabama and Tennessee. And isn't HK USA's customer support center in Trussville, AL currently?
No, Columbus, Georgia..
I hope someday there is a US produced G3. I would own a couple.
Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not....
Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not....
Me either but pretty sure it is called a PTR91.
brushy bill
10-26-14, 19:40
Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not....
I see where this may have appeared as sarcasm. I am aware of, but don't consider, the PTR same as mil spec (but semi auto) HK G3. I meant an actual to specs G3 (sans selective fire) made by HK in the US. I wanted to like the PTR, but read too many negative things this forum and others. From what I can tell it is sort of the G3 equivalent of Olympic Arms/Bushmaster. Is this incorrect?
I see where this may have appeared as sarcasm. I am aware of, but don't consider, the PTR same as mil spec (but semi auto) HK G3. I meant an actual to specs G3 (sans selective fire) made by HK in the US. I wanted to like the PTR, but read too many negative things this forum and others. From what I can tell it is sort of the G3 equivalent of Olympic Arms/Bushmaster. Is this incorrect?
I had one...Brushy Bill, your assumption is correct..
I see where this may have appeared as sarcasm. I am aware of, but don't consider, the PTR same as mil spec (but semi auto) HK G3. I meant an actual to specs G3 (sans selective fire) made by HK in the US. I wanted to like the PTR, but read too many negative things this forum and others. From what I can tell it is sort of the G3 equivalent of Olympic Arms/Bushmaster. Is this incorrect?
Yep, correct, but as close as you are ever likely to get.
brushy bill
10-26-14, 21:36
Yep, correct, but as close as you are ever likely to get.
If Olympic Arms was as close as I could get, I would pass.
If Olympic Arms was as close as I could get, I would pass.
Yep and one of the reasons I don't own one of them, but not everyone is like us and I try not to assume things about people.
Seriously Greg? With the prices LMT - Larue - KAC -DD charge for NA based production, you seriously think HK should cost as much as S&W or Ruger?
No kidding. If they could sell them that low they'd BUY all of their inventory!
-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."
I see where this may have appeared as sarcasm. I am aware of, but don't consider, the PTR same as mil spec (but semi auto) HK G3. I meant an actual to specs G3 (sans selective fire) made by HK in the US. I wanted to like the PTR, but read too many negative things this forum and others. From what I can tell it is sort of the G3 equivalent of Olympic Arms/Bushmaster. Is this incorrect?
In my experience, it is very incorrect. I know they had a problem for a few years when PTR started playing with the design, but in '11 or so, they released the GI line. Virtually everybody I know of that has one loves it, or at the very least, hasn't had any problems with it. I ordered mine about a year ago, and put a lot of rounds through it when I got back to the States last December. Never had a problem with it. It ate every type of ammo I put through it. I know the specs aren't 100% those of H&K, but it's a whole lot better than a Shrubmaster.
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m275/Alpha-17/Real%20Steel/Long%20Arms/004.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/Alpha-17/media/Real%20Steel/Long%20Arms/004.jpg.html)
There is a lot of opportunity to turn this company around.
They've been stupid for many, many years now. Most of their guns that people want are way overpriced. And the guns people don't want are also way overpriced. Accessories are overpriced. Yea I know the import restriction excuses but so many other companies have found a way to get products to us.
I wish them well.
Not sure if anyone here has been paying attention to the thread at HKPro, but it looks as if all of this looks to be like nothing more than a rumor:
"Yes. I confirmed with senior folks at HK today that this is nothing but a rumor.
HK USA (Inc.) HAS NOT been sold.
Can we move on?
G3Kurz"
Good. Now they can get on with importing or manufacturing stuff here that we want.
Hallelujah
Good. Now they can get on with importing or manufacturing stuff here that we want.
Hallelujah
You mean ignoring the US market, and overcharging for what they do bother to import? Haha. :sarcastic:
Edited to more in line with a friendly discourse.
I would be surprised if the rumor is true. Change is usually good, however, HK has a track record of some short sighted decisions.
Either you need more experience or you just like playing credibility poker. Of course you think HK's are over priced, PTR's are good enough for you. HK has been ignoring the US market since the introduction of the P7 series, arguably the most innovative pistol design of latter half of the last century.
Keep digging.
Wow, somebody can't take a joke. Yes, for a thousand dollar rifle with $1.50 mags that shoots well, and doesn't malfunction, the PTR GI that I own is "good enough". And yes, I'd say that HK has been ignoring the US market for quite a while. I've never been interested in any of HK's handguns, and so I will not comment on them. If the P7 is "the most innovative pistol design of the latter half of the last century", cool. Never was interested, just not my cup of tea. I've always been more interested in rifles. When it comes to rifles/carbines, HK does import things, but at an absolute premium, and generally, it's a neutered version of what they started with. G36, UMP, HK416, etc. I don't have a problem paying a hefty price for a quality rifle, but HK takes that to a new level. This has all been talked about before in this thread.
If HK suits you, fine. To each their own. I've got an FNH addiction myself, so I understand when a company's products just "click" with somebody.
Wow, somebody can't take a joke. Yes, for a thousand dollar rifle with $1.50 mags that shoots well, and doesn't malfunction, the PTR GI that I own is "good enough". And yes, I'd say that HK has been ignoring the US market for quite a while. I've never been interested in any of HK's handguns, and so I will not comment on them. If the P7 is "the most innovative pistol design of the latter half of the last century", cool. Never was interested, just not my cup of tea. I've always been more interested in rifles. When it comes to rifles/carbines, HK does import things, but at an absolute premium, and generally, it's a neutered version of what they started with. G36, UMP, HK416, etc. I don't have a problem paying a hefty price for a quality rifle, but HK takes that to a new level. This has all been talked about before in this thread.
If HK suits you, fine. To each their own. I've got an FNH addiction myself, so I understand when a company's products just "click" with somebody.
You're right my response was out of line and out of character which is why I edited it. My apologies. Bad day I guess.
You're right my response was out of line and out of character which is why I edited it. My apologies. Bad day I guess.
Hey, no worries. We've all had those.
Low price and market share are not always the only way to be successful. Look at Apple. Profitability can be had without attaining either of those things.
A not so good analogy - you also don't see H&K commercials every 30 minutes on the TV either. Don't underestimate advertising.
teutonicpolymer
10-31-14, 08:54
Wow, somebody can't take a joke. Yes, for a thousand dollar rifle with $1.50 mags that shoots well, and doesn't malfunction, the PTR GI that I own is "good enough". And yes, I'd say that HK has been ignoring the US market for quite a while. I've never been interested in any of HK's handguns, and so I will not comment on them. If the P7 is "the most innovative pistol design of the latter half of the last century", cool. Never was interested, just not my cup of tea. I've always been more interested in rifles. When it comes to rifles/carbines, HK does import things, but at an absolute premium, and generally, it's a neutered version of what they started with. G36, UMP, HK416, etc. I don't have a problem paying a hefty price for a quality rifle, but HK takes that to a new level. This has all been talked about before in this thread.
If HK suits you, fine. To each their own. I've got an FNH addiction myself, so I understand when a company's products just "click" with somebody.
I personally like the P7 but I sure wouldn't pay what people want for them
Not sure if anyone here has been paying attention to the thread at HKPro, but it looks as if all of this looks to be like nothing more than a rumor:
"Yes. I confirmed with senior folks at HK today that this is nothing but a rumor.
HK USA (Inc.) HAS NOT been sold.
Can we move on?
G3Kurz"
True.. HKUSA isn't getting sold. However, in that same thread, there was a link to HK's last financial statements.. While I just took a quick glance, others who read it in depth, came away with the impression that HK has some serious financial problems that need to be resolved. The bright side, if I read correctly, is they have until 2018 to get their house in order.. So, while it's a relief that HKUSA getting sold is nothing more than a rumor, All however, is not well in the Black Forest...
Leaveammoforme
10-31-14, 19:20
I have a pre-sell out H&K ball cap that has never been worn and still has the cardboard support installed. I think it is worth around $2,500. It is the correct font and style that Heckler & Koch used. The Huang & Kang style used after this sell out to China will be way different. PM if you need pic. Shipping included.
For anyone interested, I found this link in the "HKUSA being sold" thread at HKpro , type it into your address bar, it doesn't work as a hot link www.moodys.com/research/mood...ook--pr237140 good read..
PatrioticDisorder
10-31-14, 20:51
True.. HKUSA isn't getting sold. However, in that same thread, there was a link to HK's last financial statements.. While I just took a quick glance, others who read it in depth, came away with the impression that HK has some serious financial problems that need to be resolved. The bright side, if I read correctly, is they have until 2018 to get their house in order.. So, while it's a relief that HKUSA getting sold is nothing more than a rumor, All however, is not well in the Black Forest...
That's exactly why those damn stubborn German engineers finally made a gun there was actually demand for in the VP9, expect a full series of striker fired pistols 9mm, .40 & .45 in full size compact and I dare say a single stack may even be possible, I expect the USP & Mk23 line to go the way of the dinosaurs and if they can get around german export laws, perhaps an improved MR series...
That's exactly why those damn stubborn German engineers finally made a gun there was actually demand for in the VP9, expect a full series of striker fired pistols 9mm, .40 & .45 in full size compact and I dare say a single stack may even be possible, I expect the USP & Mk23 line to go the way of the dinosaurs and if they can get around german export laws, perhaps an improved MR series...
Oh, I agree.. I think that HK really needs to think about moving some if not all of their production to the U.S. That would solve a lot of their export problems.. At this point, I'm not sure VP9 and variant sales would be enough.. If you read the moodys link, HK's got some money problems.. But I think they could be overcome with proper management. And that's part of the problem.. In the thread at HKpro, someone linked a copy of a lawsuit being brought up against HK.. It seems that HK (in the recent past) took out a PIK loan,(120 million euros) and two of the majority shareholders at HK had the company "loan" them money.... (10 of millions of Euros) Dispite the fact that the terms of the loan spelled out clearly that this was illegal. Some of the money was spent on homes,($40million alone, on a house in London) aircraft, a yacht, and has yet to be paid back... Basically it was stolen.The people who made the PIK loan are wanting paid, or they're threatening foreclosure... All of this is dated in the 2009-10 timeframe and I don't know how this was resolved if at all.. As I said, not all's well in the Black Forest.... here's a link to the suit..Pg 2-3 describe what the shareholders did... https:iapps.court.state.ny.us/fbe...&system=prod
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/10/22/rumor-hk-usa-sold/
Just received this from Google + Circle.
Good, perhaps now they will get about the business of building firearms that are meant for the human hand, certainly very few people are interested in buying what they currently produce, the new owners might also stencil in a meeting or two with Glock, taking copious notes on customer service from them, and why its so important to make your customer happy
Coal Dragger
11-01-14, 23:01
Good, perhaps now they will get about the business of building firearms that are meant for the human hand, certainly very few people are interested in buying what they currently produce, the new owners might also stencil in a meeting or two with Glock, taking copious notes on customer service from them, and why its so important to make your customer happy
I guess you haven't handled an HK45, HK P30, or a VP9. Not sure where you expect to find anything with a polymer frame more ergonomic from a grip standpoint than any of those.
DreadPirateMoyer
11-01-14, 23:26
Good, perhaps now they will get about the business of building firearms that are meant for the human hand, certainly very few people are interested in buying what they currently produce, the new owners might also stencil in a meeting or two with Glock, taking copious notes on customer service from them, and why its so important to make your customer happy
You know how I know you don't own an HK? :rolleyes:
Your comments on the grip are way off, especially when considering the P30, HK45, and VP9. They're literally some of the most ergonomic pistols on the market, with the VP9 possibly being number one. Even taking those out, the USP and P2000 are no less ergonomic than a Glock or M&P or similar pistol. You're completely off base here.
And are you kidding me about customer service? Have you ever even dealt with HK customer service, or are you just repeating old memes that HK haters love to spew? Ignoring the Glock comparison (which is a joke since they still haven't fixed the ejection issues and refuse to acknowledge its existence, not to mention it's a flip of the coin if they'll offer free shipping for your pistol), HK's customer service has been the best in the pistol biz for quite a few years now. Insanely attentive technicians, less-than-a-week turnarounds, free shipping, and a whole slew of other goodies. Glock's CS doesn't compare, let alone anyone else's.
The utter ignorance and blind fanboyism in your post is astounding.
I guess you haven't handled an HK45, HK P30, or a VP9. Not sure where you expect to find anything with a polymer frame more ergonomic from a grip standpoint than any of those.
I've fired thousands of rounds through HK pistols, the first two you listed specifically! The VP9 is a P30, more or less...I'm sorry, but you got that wrong about ergonomics, both pistols compromise their ergonomics on gimmicks and trigger guard clutter. The P30 is awful, there's no gentler way to put it, its trigger geometry is queerly linear, which is why they were forced to sculpt out that groove in the guard which introduces painful distraction to the absolute worst place possible. The trigger pull is about on equal standing with those of the old Ruger P-series pistols(85, 89, 91, 93, 94)which at least had the decency to come in at less then half of the P30's price point! Then HK rigged up ambi slide release/stops that are at least one inch to long, and routinely interfere with the shooters grip, including the introduction of a protruding housing along the bottom right portion of the frame right behind the dust cover and right above the trigger which is in no way ergonomically desirable. The adjustable polymer grip frame is a nifty innovation, particularly the side panels, I'm not kidding, that could have been a tremendous advantage, however on the four different P30's I've owned, all of the grip inserts slopped around while in their respective positions in the grip frame, literally imparting the sensation of holding a mushy, squishy gun under operation, its the most annoying flaw of the gun after the trigger weirdness, and it is something that none of its competition exhibit in their modular grip frames. The M&P at half of the P30's price doesn't even show a seam where the insert meets the frame, while the HK P30's slop about, both up and down, and side to side! Then there's the annoying decocker placement, which for all practical purposes is inaccessible to a left handed shooter without breaking their grip upon the pistol, complete ergonomic failure there! Lastly we have the take down procedure, which when compared to that of a Glock, M&P, or a just about anything else, is best described as cruel!
I won't waste any further energy on the HK45, it suffices to say its over sized and we'll just leave it at that! They are well made guns, for the most part, their slides are beautifully machined, there is no doubt that they are easy to look upon, they are pistols people want to like, unfortunately 60% are lost just on the trigger guard goofiness alone, people do not like guns that are painful to operate, or difficult to take apart, no matter how nice looking they might be, toss in the worst customer service in the industry, right up there with Taurus, and you have a pretty good formula for being sold off at some point...Lets hope the new owners listen to the people that they need to be listening too, because HK has had its backside thumped by Glock, S&W, Beretta, and Sig Sauer in the all important LE markets.
You know how I know you don't own an HK? :rolleyes:
Your comments on the grip are way off, especially when considering the P30, HK45, and VP9. They're literally some of the most ergonomic pistols on the market, with the VP9 possibly being number one. Even taking those out, the USP and P2000 are no less ergonomic than a Glock or M&P or similar pistol. You're completely off base here.
And are you kidding me about customer service? Have you ever even dealt with HK customer service, or are you just repeating old memes that HK haters love to spew? Ignoring the Glock comparison (which is a joke since they still haven't fixed the ejection issues and refuse to acknowledge its existence, not to mention it's a flip of the coin if they'll offer free shipping for your pistol), HK's customer service has been the best in the pistol biz for quite a few years now. Insanely attentive technicians, less-than-a-week turnarounds, free shipping, and a whole slew of other goodies. Glock's CS doesn't compare, let alone anyone else's.
The utter ignorance and blind fanboyism in your post is astounding.
My friend don't give up your day job, you're absolutely terrible as an internet sleuth...
MountainRaven
11-02-14, 01:09
I've fired thousands of rounds through HK pistols, the first two you listed specifically! The VP9 is a P30, more or less...I'm sorry, but you got that wrong about ergonomics, both pistols compromise their ergonomics on gimmicks and trigger guard clutter. The P30 is awful, there's no gentler way to put it, its trigger geometry is queerly linear, which is why they were forced to sculpt out that groove in the guard which introduces painful distraction to the absolute worst place possible. The trigger pull is about on equal standing with those of the old Ruger P-series pistols(85, 89, 91, 93, 94)which at least had the decency to come in at less then half of the P30's price point! Then HK rigged up ambi slide release/stops that are at least one inch to long, and routinely interfere with the shooters grip, including the introduction of a protruding housing along the bottom right portion of the frame right behind the dust cover and right above the trigger which is in no way ergonomically desirable. The adjustable polymer grip frame is a nifty innovation, particularly the side panels, I'm not kidding, that could have been a tremendous advantage, however on the four different P30's I've owned, all of the grip inserts slopped around while in their respective positions in the grip frame, literally imparting the sensation of holding a mushy, squishy gun under operation, its the most annoying flaw of the gun after the trigger weirdness, and it is something that none of its competition exhibit in their modular grip frames. The M&P at half of the P30's price doesn't even show a seam where the insert meets the frame, while the HK P30's slop about, both up and down, and side to side! Then there's the annoying decocker placement, which for all practical purposes is inaccessible to a left handed shooter without breaking their grip upon the pistol, complete ergonomic failure there! Lastly we have the take down procedure, which when compared to that of a Glock, M&P, or a just about anything else, is best described as cruel!
I won't waste any further energy on the HK45, it suffices to say its over sized and we'll just leave it at that! They are well made guns, for the most part, their slides are beautifully machined, there is no doubt that they are easy to look upon, they are pistols people want to like, unfortunately 60% are lost just on the trigger guard goofiness alone, people do not like guns that are painful to operate, or difficult to take apart, no matter how nice looking they might be, toss in the worst customer service in the industry, right up there with Taurus, and you have a pretty good formula for being sold off at some point...Lets hope the new owners listen to the people that they need to be listening too, because HK has had its backside thumped by Glock, S&W, Beretta, and Sig Sauer in the all important LE markets.
My experience with H&K products has been precisely the opposite. I haven't even heard ANY complaints about H&K's customer service in four years or so, to boot.
I would do a more in depth, point-by-point rebuttal of this post, but I cannot help but feel that you're engaged in trolling. And I do not have the time to do so, at this moment. I'm sure that someone will be along shortly to do so, however - or perhaps I may do so later.
Coal Dragger
11-02-14, 02:15
I've fired thousands of rounds through HK pistols, the first two you listed specifically! The VP9 is a P30, more or less...I'm sorry, but you got that wrong about ergonomics, both pistols compromise their ergonomics on gimmicks and trigger guard clutter. The P30 is awful, there's no gentler way to put it, its trigger geometry is queerly linear, which is why they were forced to sculpt out that groove in the guard which introduces painful distraction to the absolute worst place possible. The trigger pull is about on equal standing with those of the old Ruger P-series pistols(85, 89, 91, 93, 94)which at least had the decency to come in at less then half of the P30's price point! Then HK rigged up ambi slide release/stops that are at least one inch to long, and routinely interfere with the shooters grip, including the introduction of a protruding housing along the bottom right portion of the frame right behind the dust cover and right above the trigger which is in no way ergonomically desirable. The adjustable polymer grip frame is a nifty innovation, particularly the side panels, I'm not kidding, that could have been a tremendous advantage, however on the four different P30's I've owned, all of the grip inserts slopped around while in their respective positions in the grip frame, literally imparting the sensation of holding a mushy, squishy gun under operation, its the most annoying flaw of the gun after the trigger weirdness, and it is something that none of its competition exhibit in their modular grip frames. The M&P at half of the P30's price doesn't even show a seam where the insert meets the frame, while the HK P30's slop about, both up and down, and side to side! Then there's the annoying decocker placement, which for all practical purposes is inaccessible to a left handed shooter without breaking their grip upon the pistol, complete ergonomic failure there! Lastly we have the take down procedure, which when compared to that of a Glock, M&P, or a just about anything else, is best described as cruel!
I won't waste any further energy on the HK45, it suffices to say its over sized and we'll just leave it at that! They are well made guns, for the most part, their slides are beautifully machined, there is no doubt that they are easy to look upon, they are pistols people want to like, unfortunately 60% are lost just on the trigger guard goofiness alone, people do not like guns that are painful to operate, or difficult to take apart, no matter how nice looking they might be, toss in the worst customer service in the industry, right up there with Taurus, and you have a pretty good formula for being sold off at some point...Lets hope the new owners listen to the people that they need to be listening too, because HK has had its backside thumped by Glock, S&W, Beretta, and Sig Sauer in the all important LE markets.
I've had no issues at all with the groove in the trigger guard getting into my trigger finger. I've heard that some shooters do, and don't discount it as an issue but there is an easy fix for that performed by Bowie Tactical.
I've noticed no slop in the back strap of the grip on my HK45, or any of the P30's or VP-9's that I've been able to fondle. The side panels would be an easy fix once you determine the size you wanted to use, just put some plastic weld on them. They'll never move again. As for the size of the HK45, it's a full size pistol what exactly were you expecting? You are aware they offer a compact version? I do agree about the triggers not being ideal on the P30 and to a lesser extent the HK45, but they're better than a stick Glock trigger for me.
In regards to your bitter complaints about the take down procedure, I'm wondering if you might be over matched in owning a firearm? Field stripping either a P30 or HK45 is not difficult, not even remotely. Is it really that hard for you to line up the machined notch on the bottom left slide rail with the slide stop where it can be removed from the frame? It is considerably less complicated than field stripping an AR-15, or changing your vehicles oil, or even playing with some childrens toys. If this is terribly difficult for you to figure out, perhaps you would best be served with sharp pointy sticks and big rocks.
Fortunately given your location you have a lot of sticks that can be made sharp and pointy, and you have an abundance of basalt and ryolite for bashing stuff.
I don't know.. Getting your debt refinanced a couple times, coupled with poor business decisions would probably do it
I'd say it was because they priced themselves out of the competition and did not cater to consumers.
Das ist de H und K way!
Maybe I am showing my ignorance, but who cares about who owns HK USA? If the product is designed, tested and made in Germany, how is it relevant who distributes it here as long as lines of distribution are preserved?
Because none of us want a Walther PPX.
M4C group buy for 51% of the shares? Then we can dictate what is produced! I want a semi auto MP7 and a semi auto beltfed HK21 :)
Now this gets me excited ;). Civvie MP7A1, G36es, 416s, 417s (esp. G28 version), and finanlly a P7M7 :D.
HA! M4C wouldn't be able to agree on which TP to use in the crapper, much less which civilian version of HK goodness to produce. :)
:( Very true. I remember when KevinB tried to get some interest for a civvie KAC PDW. Couldn't even make it past a few post without someone trying to change it back to an AR.
I've have recent experience with "customer service" from HK, Kahr, Sig, and S&W. HK easily blew them out of the water, the other three were so bad that I got rid of their pistols so as to never have to deal with them again. I'm no fan boy but I believe in giving credit where it is due.
Denali, friendly advice but I'd suggest sticking to the Ebola thread. Just saying man lol
Good to see my list is being validated. He's a troll.
I wonder if women have similarly natured threads about purses and other fashion accessories?
Hmmmmm
Here's some additional friendly advice... Keep it about the topic, not the members.
If a member needs some attention, report the post.
My experience with H&K products has been precisely the opposite. I haven't even heard ANY complaints about H&K's customer service in four years or so, to boot.
I would do a more in depth, point-by-point rebuttal of this post, but I cannot help but feel that you're engaged in trolling. And I do not have the time to do so, at this moment. I'm sure that someone will be along shortly to do so, however - or perhaps I may do so later.
Young man, please stop with the silliness, "trolling?" I have offered a very valid set of observations, backed up by some of the most respected names in the business, whats more I have done so with courtesy and respect, so take the hint...
As long as SIG or Taurus did not buy them...it might not be so tragic.
Does this mean we will see US made VP-9s that don't run as well as their German counterparts...ala SIG Sauer? LOL
-brickboy240
I must be really lucky to not have had any trouble with my Sigs. Or not!
I've had no issues at all with the groove in the trigger guard getting into my trigger finger. I've heard that some shooters do, and don't discount it as an issue but there is an easy fix for that performed by Bowie Tactical.
I've noticed no slop in the back strap of the grip on my HK45, or any of the P30's or VP-9's that I've been able to fondle. The side panels would be an easy fix once you determine the size you wanted to use, just put some plastic weld on them. They'll never move again. As for the size of the HK45, it's a full size pistol what exactly were you expecting? You are aware they offer a compact version? I do agree about the triggers not being ideal on the P30 and to a lesser extent the HK45, but they're better than a stick Glock trigger for me.
In regards to your bitter complaints about the take down procedure, I'm wondering if you might be over matched in owning a firearm? Field stripping either a P30 or HK45 is not difficult, not even remotely. Is it really that hard for you to line up the machined notch on the bottom left slide rail with the slide stop where it can be removed from the frame? It is considerably less complicated than field stripping an AR-15, or changing your vehicles oil, or even playing with some childrens toys. If this is terribly difficult for you to figure out, perhaps you would best be served with sharp pointy sticks and big rocks.
Fortunately given your location you have a lot of sticks that can be made sharp and pointy, and you have an abundance of basalt and ryolite for bashing stuff.
My friend, BS! If you've actually handled the designs I have, then you know the issues are real, would you like to hear an opinion even harsher then my own about the P30? Pay a courtesy call on Mr Bowie of "Bowie Tactical" and ask him for his thoughts on the P30, then inform him that he's a troll, and FOS...BTW, sending out a $900.00 plastic pistol to market that requires immediate modification to its mechanism to comfortably function is not exactly a recipe for success...
Here's some additional friendly advice... Keep it about the topic, not the members.
If a member needs some attention, report the post.
My posts are offered as my opinion based upon "much experience" with the designs in question, it wasn't in anyway insulting, or derogatory to a single individual here. Its obvious as hell that I have comprehensive hands on knowledge of the guns in question, and it remains my opinion that HK being sold is a very positive step in the right direction, if in fact that is what occurs, for this I am a troll, and a liar? Some of the guy's might ask themselves a question, do they prefer this place be a kool-aid stand, or a place of intelligent & insightful discourse...I have to wonder what the reaction would be to Dave Bowie sharing some of his opinions on HK might stir up around here...There is a reason why HK is in financial trouble, and its not that they are under appreciated by an ignorant market...
MountainRaven
11-02-14, 11:59
My posts are offered as my opinion based upon "much experience" with the designs in question, it wasn't in anyway insulting, or derogatory to a single individual here. Its obvious as hell that I have comprehensive hands on knowledge of the guns in question, and it remains my opinion that HK being sold is a very positive step in the right direction, if in fact that is what occurs, for this I am a troll, and a liar? Some of the guy's might ask themselves a question, do they prefer this place be a kool-aid stand, or a place of intelligent & insightful discourse...I have to wonder what the reaction would be to Dave Bowie sharing some of his opinions on HK might stir up around here...There is a reason why HK is in financial trouble, and its not that they are under appreciated by an ignorant market...
And anyone who disagrees with you is being 'silly'. Even when those who do so also have extensive experience and can drop the names of SMEs every bit as well.
ETA: The only complaint you have made regarding H&K pistols that has a basis in fact is the geometry of the trigger guards of the HK45 and the P30. And while I'm sure that Mister Bowie would agree with you (I don't disagree), I doubt he would agree with you so vehemently as to render the pistols null and useless.
Hell, trigger guard geometry isn't a problem limited to H&K products: Just talk to a large enough group of Glock shooters and you'll find folks who have problems with its trigger geometry.
As for the rest? Unsubstantiated or out-of-date information.
H&K's customer service? Out of date.
P30 grip panel slop? Unsubstantiated. You are literally the only person I have ever heard mention such a thing. Todd Green and Larry Vickers have never brought it up and neither have any of the other H&K users on this forum (to include those who aren't especially fond of their H&Ks handguns).
H&K pistol field stripping? It's not complicated. Compare their hammer-fired guns to CZs and IWIs. Unless you've never field stripped a 1911 before, I can see how you might feel that it is difficult and/or complicated. Field stripping the P7 is no more difficult than any other blowback-operated handgun. And the VP9? It's easier to field strip than an M&P. Barely. On par with the SiG P220/225/226/228/229 and the Springfield XDm. I find no merit to this accusation.
Length of the P30's slide locks? Replace with the slide locks from a P30S or do what H&K's rep did for the Norwegian police service trials: Break out the dremel and remove some length from the slide lock and add some serrations. It isn't rocket surgery.
It is no secret that H&K excels at receiving military and national/federal-level police contracts but falls well behind when it comes to local and state police. Part of this is simply pricing. Part of it is the expense of training LE armorers - H&K doesn't make simple firearms.
Yes, H&K is in financial trouble. And pretty much always has been since the fall of the Berlin Wall. But if you're a student of history, this isn't surprising: A quick read of the history of the Model 70 reveals that technically excellent, but complicated guns are expensive to manufacture and expensive guns are harder to sell than cheaper guns - to the point where Winchester was losing money on every Model 70 they sold. (But that was fine with Franklin Olin, who owned and founded Olin Corporation which owned - and still owns - Winchester, because he made back the money on ammunition. After he died, the technically excellent, but complicated Model 70 was replaced with the post-64 Model 70, which is still reviled to this day. And has made things rather financially rocky for Winchester ever since, as they lost business going to the post-64 models and Olin even sold the factory and licensed the name off - with varying effect on the quality of the weapons produced.)
My friend, BS! If you've actually handled the designs I have, then you know the issues are real, would you like to hear an opinion even harsher then my own about the P30? Pay a courtesy call on Mr Bowie of "Bowie Tactical" and ask him for his thoughts on the P30, then inform him that he's a troll, and FOS...BTW, sending out a $900.00 plastic pistol to market that requires immediate modification to its mechanism to comfortably function is not exactly a recipe for success...
Who really cares what Bowie has to say...He's a M&P hack who's been pissed off ever since Apex tactical came out with drop in trigger parts which pretty much eliminated the need to send a M&P to him for trigger work.. I've read his posts in the past, he has a ax to grind with HK, and frankly anybody who lets his bias get in the way of a factual opinions, Well at that point, his opinions are meaningless... Got any other names you want to drop? Removing the trough in the triggerguard is not a immediate modification that's always needed, sure, it bothers some people, and others it doesn't, as far as "immediate modifications to comfortably function" goes, what does replacing extractors on Glocks, barrels on M&P's, trigger jobs on M&P's constitute ?
ETA: If Bowie is reading this IMO, he is FOS, and a troll...
So,
Regarding HK and their financial outlook is there or has there been anything definitive put out for public consumption that they are getting their act together for long term restructuring and viability?
Coal Dragger
11-02-14, 12:53
My friend, BS! If you've actually handled the designs I have, then you know the issues are real, would you like to hear an opinion even harsher then my own about the P30? Pay a courtesy call on Mr Bowie of "Bowie Tactical" and ask him for his thoughts on the P30, then inform him that he's a troll, and FOS...BTW, sending out a $900.00 plastic pistol to market that requires immediate modification to its mechanism to comfortably function is not exactly a recipe for success...
Wow, your anecdotal stories of all these problems carry just as much weight (statistically) as my anecdotal stories of having none of the problems you mention.
Did I read correctly that you claim to have owned up to 4 different P30's? If you hated the first one so much, why buy three more of them? To me this doesn't sound like a rational decision.
You don't like HK products, and that is fine, I don't care for a lot of companies offerings. Hence why there are so many choices on the market. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to bash others for having different preferences. Well other than you and your ridiculous complaints about how hard it is to field strip an HK for cleaning. For crying out loud my wife can do it, and she doesn't have a lot of upper body strength or mechanical aptitude.
MountainRaven
11-02-14, 12:59
So,
Regarding HK and their financial outlook is there or has there been anything definitive put out for public consumption that they are getting their act together for long term restructuring and viability?
None that I am aware of.
And I fear that any such plan will involve the post-64 model 70'ing of their product line.
My posts are offered as my opinion based upon "much experience" with the designs in question, it wasn't in anyway insulting, or derogatory to a single individual here. Its obvious as hell that I have comprehensive hands on knowledge of the guns in question, and it remains my opinion that HK being sold is a very positive step in the right direction, if in fact that is what occurs, for this I am a troll, and a liar? Some of the guy's might ask themselves a question, do they prefer this place be a kool-aid stand, or a place of intelligent & insightful discourse...I have to wonder what the reaction would be to Dave Bowie sharing some of his opinions on HK might stir up around here...There is a reason why HK is in financial trouble, and its not that they are under appreciated by an ignorant market...
Wow...just...wow.
This one is going to the time out corner for awhile.
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