View Full Version : Red dots on concealed carry guns - thoughts?
Afternoon gents.
The bug bites again. Since I'm shopping for a new concealed carry gun, I'm once more considering the viability of a red dot sight on a CCW. The Norwich University study in 2011 (http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/2011_Norwich_Study_RMRvIronSights.pdf) makes a pretty compelling argument for the use of an RDS on a handgun, but my questions specifically relate to the usability of such a sight on a concealed carry gun. I know some departments have allowed RDS equipped duty guns; mine is not among them so I have never had the opportunity to try any handgun at all with an RDS, let alone talk to someone who's tried using one on an off-duty gun.
Does anyone have experience carrying a red dot equipped CCW? If so, can you share your experience with it? Holster availability, RDS reliability, printing concerns, everything is up for discussion.
I have AIWB a G17 rmr and a M&P9 rmr for some time. With AIWB I found it not hard at all to conceal or to keep protected from the elements. I have used the rmr02 and rmr05, no issues to report with the rmr02. The rmr05 does wash out in the dark when a bright white light is used but good suppressor height sight eliminate that concern in my opinion. Working with a rmr equipped gun will make you a better irons only shooter period. Working the dot shows you deficiencies in your grip and trigger control and is bar none a no brainer at distance when fast follow up shots are needed. Paint the target and do your trigger right and you will hit.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
I started with a DR Optic in 2001, that sight is still going strong on my sons carry gun.
I now carry a RMR on my Glock 17 or 19 and have never had an issue with them.
I went with a red dot because my eyes were getting old and it was harder to shoot at longer distance.
Voodoo_Man
10-25-14, 21:26
From my very limited time with an rmr'd gun, I can say for thr statically likely distance of engagement an rds is not capable of out performing iron sights when used from concealment. Meaning they are nearly identical until you actually take the time to find the dot. At 5 feet there is no time to find the dot.
The only advantage it has over iron sights is if you already have the gun out and/or you need to actively engage a target that is 25y and out.
Realy world info here, not square range.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h213/gripgc8/7D057316-4AEC-4695-8942-B496B2B5189A_zpsy5zpwztn.jpg
G19 gen 3, Trijicon RMR RM06 carried daily. Not a single issue with printing, the iron sights are Ameriglo suppressor sights (plan black rear/tritium w/white outline front)
Change the battery yearly, if the optic fails use the iron sights.
Dont rely on the dot from the draw. Use the irons how you normally would. The dot is great for distance and follow up shots in my opinion.
From my very limited time with an rmr'd gun, I can say for thr statically likely distance of engagement an rds is not capable of out performing iron sights when used from concealment. Meaning they are nearly identical until you actually take the time to find the dot. At 5 feet there is no time to find the dot.
The only advantage it has over iron sights is if you already have the gun out and/or you need to actively engage a target that is 25y and out.
Realy world info here, not square range.
I disagree with this. I think at 5ft or those kind of ranges point shooting is more important than any sight picture. outside of that up to 10ish yards the hood make for a very effective put the target inside of the hood, press trigger, make hits. outside of that is where the dot is awesome in terms of accuracy.
YMMV,
Chris
Quick Draw
10-25-14, 22:41
I carry my M&P 9 CORE 4.25" with rds in cold weather. It fits in my Comp Tac holster just fine.
As others have said distance determines which sights to use or point shoot. I compete in point shoot competition monthly.
Living in MD, I don't often get to carry. But, when I travel to actual free states (as opposed to those who simply use that moniker), a G19 with RM07 is one of my options.
I first became interested in the RMR concept after reading some in various online forums. Then, last April when I took Steve Fisher's Critical Handgun Employment class, I saw his Nighthawk 1911 with RMR and got to shoot a fellow classmate's G19 with RMR, and I was hooked. We did quite a bit of shooting out at 25 yards in that class, and using the RMR at that distance was much easier than irons. Fisher had us shoot at 25 a lot because it mimics the length of most supermarket aisles, and what if you had to take THAT shot? Also, everyone looks accurate at 7 yards, but at 25, bad technique is apparent.
The RMR is also great for dryfire work and for hitting moving targets. Up close, point shooting will rule the day, so the above poster who mentioned that there is no time to find the dot up close is really bringing up a fallacious argument. Force on Force classes have shown me that I can effectively point shoot, while moving, at distances of around 7 yrs.
To the OP, I carry it AIWB in a holster that OST sells (or sold) made to fit the G19 with RMR. Holster selection will be limited compared with a non RMR pistol.
Also, you have to get a gun with a wide enough slide. An RMR on a Shield isn't an option. But an M&P or a 226, almost all Glocks, etc, are fine.
I definitely recommend having your slide milled to accept it and get suppressor sights to use in conjunction with it.
If you do ever have to use your red-dot equipped pistol, it might be easier for witnesses / lawmen / prosecutors to make you out as some sort of assassin wanna-be. Same for lasers.
If you do ever have to use your red-dot equipped pistol, it might be easier for witnesses / lawmen / prosecutors to make you out as some sort of assassin wanna-be. Same for lasers.
I cant worry about that, I'm too worried about a chunk from a failing satellite impaling me as I walk my dog.
If you do ever have to use your red-dot equipped pistol, it might be easier for witnesses / lawmen / prosecutors to make you out as some sort of assassin wanna-be. Same for lasers.
While lawyers can and will say anything, I think the counter to such logic is that, if a red dot makes you more accurate, you are more accountable for every round you fire and less likely to endanger the lives of innocent bystanders.
If you do ever have to use your red-dot equipped pistol, it might be easier for witnesses / lawmen / prosecutors to make you out as some sort of assassin wanna-be. Same for lasers.
Here we go...
These arguments can go both ways, and until someone can cite some sort of past case where this type of thing was anything approaching an issue in what as otherwise a clean shoot, I'm going to continue to file it away was much ado about nothing.
Voodoo_Man
10-27-14, 11:27
Here we go...
These arguments can go both ways, and until someone can cite some sort of past case where this type of thing was anything approaching an issue in what as otherwise a clean shoot, I'm going to continue to file it away was much ado about nothing.
I agree.
I have asked this question in several threads, cite some case law, a court case or some point of contention brought up in court during a trial for a shoot. Same with text or pictures on your firearm or otherwise.
I am still waiting for a response on the matter.
If you do ever have to use your red-dot equipped pistol, it might be easier for witnesses / lawmen / prosecutors to make you out as some sort of assassin wanna-be. Same for lasers.
... and ample opportunity for a competent lawyer to explain the actual purpose of those - making sure those rounds aren't going unintended places in the backstop/background should the weapon system have to be employed. That point isn't utterly invalid since ignorance is still apparently defensible in courts, but it court cases are going to come down to other factors first and foremost.
If there isn't an opportunity cost associated with it (i.e. not carrying/spending on something else in order to accommodate the RDS on the pistol) then sure; but for me I'd rather spend that weight/real estate/cost budget towards other things like lights (plural - WML and tertiary light) and a spare magazine.
I have two RDS equipped handguns. A P30 and Glock 19L (19 w/ grip chop). The P30 is sporting a Delta Point the Glock and RMR.
I have no issues concealing either both AWIB and behind the hip.
My 1st Delta Point died on me. Leupold Replaced it no questions asked. I would go with the Delta Point 2 if I were to do it again.
My RMR has been pretty much flawless.
I shot primarily Winchester Ranger NATO out of both guns for over 3K a piece or so between practice, matches and classes.
The Norwich study is somewhat flawed (I haven't read it in a while so I may be mistaken) as these were new shooters that didn't have a bias toward iron sights and they also don't discuss times for initial shot.
I have noticed a slower first shot time when using RDS guns, but that's mainly just needing to get me head lower and gun higher.
I do shoot a RDS more accurately and when comparing IDPA classifier times my times stayed about the same but I shot it about 12 points better. The big issue I had during the classifier with the RDS equipped gun was during the El Pres, I got a little wonky during the turn and spent a couple of seconds looking for the dot instead of just going to the BUIS.
Holster selection is getting a lot better, and with Kydex you can just cut or remold the holster to fit the RMR.
I haven't looked at 1911 options in leather but even guys like 5Shot Leather are making holsters for RMR equipped Glocks. Depending on what you want to go with there are options.
For my P30S with Delta Point I was still able to use a Milt Sparks VMII with no alterations.
Cost...that's the bad thing but you get get a plastic fantastic, smith work and RMR for less than the cost of some mid/high tier 1911s.
Bowie Tactical did both of my guns and did a super job. There's a couple other outfits that do it as well, but I like Bowie's work.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/27/1e4763a9b09d6689ae0fc39b1ea2447e.jpg
I'm always curious as to the age and/or vision quality of the members who respond to pistol red dot questions. My 55 year old eyes are having more and more problems seeing the front sight clearly. My impression form a lot of reading is that the red dot can solve a lot of vision-related problems by putting the dot in the same focal plane as the target, but introduces the challenge of finding the dot as quickly as indexing irons. I wear progressive lens glasses. To focus on the front sight requires that I hold my head up higher and tilted slightly back to find the sweet spot, which is awkward but doable. I think there has to be a point when the vision induced challenges of sight focus and alignment, and the red dot induced challenges of finding the sight pretty much equal out, and after that the red dot starts to win out. Any of the old guys or vision challenged guys have some feedback on this aspect?
i have had some issues with an rm07 where the dot randomly shuts off and will come back on the next shot. trijicon has great customer service though, and wouldn't let that stop you. i have an rm06 that has been very good to me so far, and would be the model i suggest if you have bad eyes or astigmatism.
i have a really hard time cleaning the glass and cannot get at the rear glass at all with a normal lens pen. still havent figured that out. really not an issue, except it makes it very hard to see black iron sights. even when the glass is clean its not exactly easy to see, for this reason i suggest tritium irons with white or some other outline around the dots.
I clean the glass with my t-shirt wrapped over my finger. Works on both sides of the glass. A lens pen or cleaning solution is not worth the trouble.
I'm always curious as to the age and/or vision quality of the members who respond to pistol red dot questions. My 55 year old eyes are having more and more problems seeing the front sight clearly. My impression form a lot of reading is that the red dot can solve a lot of vision-related problems by putting the dot in the same focal plane as the target, but introduces the challenge of finding the dot as quickly as indexing irons. I wear progressive lens glasses. To focus on the front sight requires that I hold my head up higher and tilted slightly back to find the sweet spot, which is awkward but doable. I think there has to be a point when the vision induced challenges of sight focus and alignment, and the red dot induced challenges of finding the sight pretty much equal out, and after that the red dot starts to win out. Any of the old guys or vision challenged guys have some feedback on this aspect?
speed to acquire is just a matter of practice. when very close you should be point shooting or using the red dot housing as an index point until you can find the dot. it takes a lot of draw strokes to bring the gun up and find the dot instantly. problems start popping up when youre drawing and shooting from any position other than the traditional one you practice on the couch.
but really thats why the iron sights are there as back up, you can use them to present and once your all lined up the dot is just there. transitioning from the irons and focusing on the dot is completely mindless.
I'm not a qualified expert but from my CCW training experience I think one is better off with regular sights. With adrenaline pumping and the short time to react, I don't think that I could use a RDS effectively. One may even need to fire as soon as the pistol is out of the holster and up.
I see most are running RMR style, has anyone tried an aimpoint micro style?
I'm always curious as to the age and/or vision quality of the members who respond to pistol red dot questions. My 55 year old eyes are having more and more problems seeing the front sight clearly. My impression form a lot of reading is that the red dot can solve a lot of vision-related problems by putting the dot in the same focal plane as the target, but introduces the challenge of finding the dot as quickly as indexing irons. I wear progressive lens glasses. To focus on the front sight requires that I hold my head up higher and tilted slightly back to find the sweet spot, which is awkward but doable. I think there has to be a point when the vision induced challenges of sight focus and alignment, and the red dot induced challenges of finding the sight pretty much equal out, and after that the red dot starts to win out. Any of the old guys or vision challenged guys have some feedback on this aspect?
I am 42. I wear glasses but not usually when I shoot (I can pass the vision test at DMV without my glasses). I have astigmatism.
i have had some issues with an rm07 where the dot randomly shuts off and will come back on the next shot. trijicon has great customer service though, and wouldn't let that stop you. i have an rm06 that has been very good to me so far, and would be the model i suggest if you have bad eyes or astigmatism.
i have a really hard time cleaning the glass and cannot get at the rear glass at all with a normal lens pen. still havent figured that out. really not an issue, except it makes it very hard to see black iron sights. even when the glass is clean its not exactly easy to see, for this reason i suggest tritium irons with white or some other outline around the dots.
Almost everyone I know with the 07 had this issue. A battery change almost always fixes it. I am convinced Trijicon sent out those models with bad batteries.
I see most are running RMR style, has anyone tried an aimpoint micro style?
Big and ungainly.
I'm not a qualified expert but from my CCW training experience I think one is better off with regular sights. With adrenaline pumping and the short time to react, I don't think that I could use a RDS effectively. One may even need to fire as soon as the pistol is out of the holster and up.
In that case, you are either point shooting or, if you don't see the dot, you just use the irons. Really, at this point, other than the glass getting clouded up with something, I really don't see any negatives to the RMR (cost maybe?).
I have two RDS equipped handguns. A P30 and Glock 19L (19 w/ grip chop). The P30 is sporting a Delta Point the Glock and RMR.
I have no issues concealing either both AWIB and behind the hip.
My 1st Delta Point died on me. Leupold Replaced it no questions asked. I would go with the Delta Point 2 if I were to do it again.
My RMR has been pretty much flawless.
I shot primarily Winchester Ranger NATO out of both guns for over 3K a piece or so between practice, matches and classes.
The Norwich study is somewhat flawed (I haven't read it in a while so I may be mistaken) as these were new shooters that didn't have a bias toward iron sights and they also don't discuss times for initial shot.
I have noticed a slower first shot time when using RDS guns, but that's mainly just needing to get me head lower and gun higher.
I do shoot a RDS more accurately and when comparing IDPA classifier times my times stayed about the same but I shot it about 12 points better. The big issue I had during the classifier with the RDS equipped gun was during the El Pres, I got a little wonky during the turn and spent a couple of seconds looking for the dot instead of just going to the BUIS.
Holster selection is getting a lot better, and with Kydex you can just cut or remold the holster to fit the RMR.
I haven't looked at 1911 options in leather but even guys like 5Shot Leather are making holsters for RMR equipped Glocks. Depending on what you want to go with there are options.
For my P30S with Delta Point I was still able to use a Milt Sparks VMII with no alterations.
Cost...that's the bad thing but you get get a plastic fantastic, smith work and RMR for less than the cost of some mid/high tier 1911s.
Bowie Tactical did both of my guns and did a super job. There's a couple other outfits that do it as well, but I like Bowie's work.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/27/1e4763a9b09d6689ae0fc39b1ea2447e.jpg
I got to handle one like this that a classmate had in class. I really dislike the rear sight in front of the RMR. It should be at the back, where we are used to picking it up. Plus, it really reduces your sight radius.
I have two RDS equipped handguns. A P30 and Glock 19L (19 w/ grip chop). The P30 is sporting a Delta Point the Glock and RMR.
I have no issues concealing either both AWIB and behind the hip.
My 1st Delta Point died on me. Leupold Replaced it no questions asked. I would go with the Delta Point 2 if I were to do it again.
My RMR has been pretty much flawless.
I shot primarily Winchester Ranger NATO out of both guns for over 3K a piece or so between practice, matches and classes.
The Norwich study is somewhat flawed (I haven't read it in a while so I may be mistaken) as these were new shooters that didn't have a bias toward iron sights and they also don't discuss times for initial shot.
I have noticed a slower first shot time when using RDS guns, but that's mainly just needing to get me head lower and gun higher.
I do shoot a RDS more accurately and when comparing IDPA classifier times my times stayed about the same but I shot it about 12 points better. The big issue I had during the classifier with the RDS equipped gun was during the El Pres, I got a little wonky during the turn and spent a couple of seconds looking for the dot instead of just going to the BUIS.
Holster selection is getting a lot better, and with Kydex you can just cut or remold the holster to fit the RMR.
I haven't looked at 1911 options in leather but even guys like 5Shot Leather are making holsters for RMR equipped Glocks. Depending on what you want to go with there are options.
For my P30S with Delta Point I was still able to use a Milt Sparks VMII with no alterations.
Cost...that's the bad thing but you get get a plastic fantastic, smith work and RMR for less than the cost of some mid/high tier 1911s.
Bowie Tactical did both of my guns and did a super job. There's a couple other outfits that do it as well, but I like Bowie's work.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/10/27/1e4763a9b09d6689ae0fc39b1ea2447e.jpg
Now that name looks awfully familiar. I don't suppose you've any relation to Limatunes? If so, say hi and I still carry that ol' Milt Sparks.
Good information, that's exactly what I was looking for. The current plan has been choosing between chopping down the Glock 19 or replacing it with the new Glock 36, then milling the slide for an RMR. Holsters I'm still on the hunt for; the Raven holster I have currently isn't very good for my build (34" waist), so I'm looking for either a leather-kydex hybrid or all leather holster. A Brommeland Max Con V would be ideal, but you know what they say about hen's teeth.
Keep the responses coming guys. You're definitely helping me make an informed decision and I hope others can benefit from the topic too.
In real life shooting their is a time space continuum.
The less space, the less time we have to make the shot and more space equals more time.
Up close when it is measured in feet get your pistol out and index it at the bad guy, point shooting in other words.
As the distance increases so does the time for the shot and the need to be able to deliver more accuracy. When you get out to 25 yards you are going to be using either your iron sights or your RMR.
I am 57 and my eyes are not what they used to be I have to wear reading glasses 1's. I could no longer shoot at 25 meters or more with the accuracy that I wanted. So I went looking for a solution in 2001 I put a Dr. Optic on my Glock and have never looked back.
You need to dry fire and practice until shooting with a dot on your pistol becomes second nature just like Iron sights.
As of now I have tried a lot of Iron sights including big dot and nothing gives me the ability to shoot accurately at 25 and more like the RMR.
Apricotshot
10-28-14, 06:59
So far I've read people advocating point shooting, not using your sights in close and lasers or red dots will get you prosecuted as an assassin. This site has become BARFCOM.
Apricotshot
Are you saying if a guy is 3 to 4 feet in front of you can't index your pistol without using the sights and obtain good center mass shots?
So far I've read people advocating point shooting, not using your sights in close and lasers or red dots will get you prosecuted as an assassin. This site has become BARFCOM.
yes, we're all ****ing idiots who have no clue what they are doing just like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZJZsf71oc
Now that name looks awfully familiar. I don't suppose you've any relation to Limatunes? If so, say hi and I still carry that ol' Milt Sparks.
Good information, that's exactly what I was looking for. The current plan has been choosing between chopping down the Glock 19 or replacing it with the new Glock 36, then milling the slide for an RMR. Holsters I'm still on the hunt for; the Raven holster I have currently isn't very good for my build (34" waist), so I'm looking for either a leather-kydex hybrid or all leather holster. A Brommeland Max Con V would be ideal, but you know what they say about hen's teeth.
Keep the responses coming guys. You're definitely helping me make an informed decision and I hope others can benefit from the topic too.
Yep, same JD.
A 19 with a grip chop is a nice package. I still like having a bigger grip no smaller than the 19 but that's just me. Maybe a 30S and split the difference?
The grip chop will add cost to the project, but if you're looking to change guns anyway I'd go getting the new route and not butchering what is pretty much the quintessential carry gun (the G19) and keep it as is.
When it comes to the RDS itself there's a couple of options. I really like the Delta reticle on the Delta Point, the 7.5MOA triangle to be exact.
The Deltapoint has a better field of view than the RMR but I'd wait for the Delta Point 2 (where the hell is it all ready?) as it allows a battery change without removing the optic, I haven't seen if it has the same set screws as the 1, but that's the one thing I don't like about the Delta Point, they use a T5 torx for the set screws and they are really easy to strip out.
But they didn't seem to have loss of zero issues like the RMRs have been known to suffer.
My RMR is the 6.5MOA dot, adjustable LED, it has an auto feature and my battery has been in just over a year (10/21/13) and it's still bright.
One thing I started doing when I was carrying the dot gun was to get a small lens pen and I'd have to clean the optic off daily, it caught a lot of lint / debris from my polo shirts. I had a small lens pen and it worked fine, I've used my finger and shirt before which worked OK but the pen did a better job. I picked up a 3 pack from Best Buy for less than the Trijicon marked pen.
I got to handle one like this that a classmate had in class. I really dislike the rear sight in front of the RMR. It should be at the back, where we are used to picking it up. Plus, it really reduces your sight radius.
Opinions vary. The BUIS are there as a back up, in the event that the RDS fails. With the RDS mounted farther back you have better success using a regular holster for the gun instead of a modified rig. As for sight radius, you loose about an inch, not that big a deal on a Glock 17 slide. On a G19 or G26 I could see it being a bigger issue to some.
The school of though on the rear sight being forward of the optic is that it helps protect the RDS if you one handed manipulations etc. in that you can hook on the rear BUIS not the RDS. One thing to remember is that some of the optics have the set screws in the rear of the optic and you need a rear BUIS with holes in it to reach the set screws.
One of these days I'll get a slide from Saurez just to see if I like the rear sight to the rear of the RDS or not. As of right now, it doesn't bother me. It also depends on the gun in question and where the slide internals lay.
I got to handle one like this that a classmate had in class. I really dislike the rear sight in front of the RMR. It should be at the back, where we are used to picking it up. Plus, it really reduces your sight radius.
if they are truly back up sights, then sight radius is irrelevant for all the times they aren't being used. Red dots afford unlimited sight radius.
One may even need to fire as soon as the pistol is out of the holster and up.
And?
There is nothing about having a red dot sight mounted that would stop you from doing such a thing. If someone is at bad breath distance, and you are in a position where it would be wise to draw and fire without attaining a full sight picture, it doesn't really matter if you have a turd mounted on the slide, let alone a RDS.
I'm not even a huge advocate for pistol RDS's, but some of the arguments against them just leave me scratching my head.
For me I have been on the fence for a while and will probably end up giving one a try here in the near future. Im not going to respond to most of the posts here as I see them as off topic.
For me what interests me to the RDS on a handgun is
- Shooting at Night or low light- should be a huge plus for the rds
-soon to be suppressor owner for handgun
-my eyes are not the greatest
-better accuracy at longer distances
-only way to know is to try
I am probably going to have one installed on a Glock 19
honestly they're just cool, does anyone really need anything? if youre thinking about it, just do it. you can always sell the stuff you buy. the only thing you need to ask yourself is what model of red dot youre going to get, what gun youll put it on, how you will mount it and what suppressor height sights you will install.
with this said, the adjustable rmr's are the best thing going and you do want glowing tritium iron sights! heres one example why, laying in bed and grabbing the glock off a night stand with no night sights. problem 1, harder to find the thing on the table in the dark, 3 glowing dots gives you reference so you can get the right grip the first time and not accidentally grab the trigger. problem 2 with no night sights in pitch black, if youre laying on your side or back and try to find the dot, you cant see the gun to line it up with your eye. your practice drawing on the range or presenting in the house at the tv wont be much help here.
rmr 06 milled into slide and suppressor height night sights. (preferably with the rear sight in the traditional dove tail, not in front of the red dot from my personal experience)
I haven't had the opportunity to try a RMR-equipped pistol yet, but I keep reading about them.
One obvious/newbie question... for a carry gun, are these RMR sights powered on the entire time you have it holstered or is there some activation switch that must be hit during the draw to power-on? I know battery life on these things is ridiculously long by most measures, so the former is quite likely how folks carry these, but it's something to consider.
I haven't had the opportunity to try a RMR-equipped pistol yet, but I keep reading about them.
One obvious/newbie question... for a carry gun, are these RMR sights powered on the entire time you have it holstered or is there some activation switch that must be hit during the draw to power-on? I know battery life on these things is ridiculously long by most measures, so the former is quite likely how folks carry these, but it's something to consider.
the adjustable rmr's, (rmr06 and 07) feature an auto brightness setting. To power it on normally, press either brightness up or down once. To enable auto mode, press both buttons at the same time either while its already on or from off. to turn the unit off, press and hold both buttons for 3 seconds. no, accidental shut off has not been a problem from my personal experience when carrying or from what ive read.
on auto or any of the reasonable brightness settings, changing the battery on your birthday is best practice when leaving it on 24/7. id suggest leaving it on if at the very least, to prevent wearing out the buttons.
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/support/faq_RMR.php
the adjustable rmr's, (rmr06 and 07) feature an auto brightness setting. To power it on normally, press either brightness up or down once. To enable auto mode, press both buttons at the same time either while its already on or from off. to turn the unit off, press and hold both buttons for 3 seconds. no, accidental shut off has not been a problem from my personal experience when carrying or from what ive read.
on auto or any of the reasonable brightness settings, changing the battery on your birthday is best practice when leaving it on 24/7. id suggest leaving it on if at the very least, to prevent wearing out the buttons.
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/support/faq_RMR.php
Ah, good info. I didn't realize some models run tritium elements with fiber optics (a la ACOG style) for illumination. I'd be curious how effective those are under varied lighting conditions.
Thanks!
Ah, good info. I didn't realize some models run tritium elements with fiber optics (a la ACOG style) for illumination. I'd be curious how effective those are under varied lighting conditions.
Thanks!
There can be some wash out when looking from dark room to outside for instance. And the smallest dot in tritium/fiber is larger than largest dot on LEDs.
So far I've read people advocating point shooting, not using your sights in close and lasers or red dots will get you prosecuted as an assassin. This site has become BARFCOM.
Good info...thanks.
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 06:30
yes, we're all ****ing idiots who have no clue what they are doing just like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZJZsf71oc
You can't see hits on people. You can on paper. I'll take the sights. Kinesthetic....hahaha just call it point shooting. Sage is usually much better than this, but they are teaching Sabrina too now so I guess this is par for the course.
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 06:32
Apricotshot
Are you saying if a guy is 3 to 4 feet in front of you can't index your pistol without using the sights and obtain good center mass shots?
Are you talking shooting from retention position? If you are then yeah, of course I shant be using the sights. But after the first few rounds you are creating space then following up with a sighted fire.
Even if the guy is at a greater distance say up to 7 meters you can still get good center mass hits not using your sights. At that distance you need to spend your time putting rounds into the person, not seeking a sight picture.
But I agree as distance opens up of course transition to your sights (RMR or Iron)
I have gone to RMR because I can't shoot as well past 25 meters today like I could when I was in my 20-30's and shooting every day was part of my job.
The problem I have when this topic get's brought up is people seem to divide into 2 camps. This I think based on what I have done in my life is selling yourself short. I have been in situations where the range was zero to maybe 100 meters, and I had to solve the issue with a pistol. Are these the norm, of course not I was in a specific situation and time.
But if the USA see's more sudden jihad syndrome you need to be ready to respond to any scenario.
Even if the guy is at a greater distance say up to 7 meters you can still get good center mass hits not using your sights. At that distance you need to spend your time putting rounds into the person, not seeking a sight picture.
But I agree as distance opens up of course transition to your sights (RMR or Iron)
I have gone to RMR because I can't shoot as well past 25 meters today like I could when I was in my 20-30's and shooting every day was part of my job.
The problem I have when this topic get's brought up is people seem to divide into 2 camps. This I think based on what I have done in my life is selling yourself short. I have been in situations where the range was zero to maybe 100 meters, and I had to solve the issue with a pistol. Are these the norm, of course not I was in a specific situation and time.
But if the USA see's more sudden jihad syndrome you need to be ready to respond to any scenario.
Great points. In force on force training, I have had no trouble shooting from all sorts of positions, one handed, getting all COM hits at 20 feet (on a Federal Air Marshal, no less), so while I prefer sighted fire, I realize that in a dynamic, close range fight, my sights may turn out to be superfluous.
On the other hand, if I am faced with more of an active shooter scenario where I have a good shot from 25 yards or more, the RMR gives me the chance to not just get COM hits, but potentially take easy head shots at a stationary bad guy. Plus, hits on moving targets are easier as well, due to focal plane issues.
Again, other than cost and a bit of a learning curve, I really don't see any negatives to using an RMR. I do believe there is still room for improvement in the technology, but I believe the concept is sound.
You can't see hits on people. You can on paper. I'll take the sights. Kinesthetic....hahaha just call it point shooting. Sage is usually much better than this, but they are teaching Sabrina too now so I guess this is par for the course.
I'm glad to see you can be so dismissive of something you know nothing about.
Great points. In force on force training, I have had no trouble shooting from all sorts of positions, one handed, getting all COM hits at 20 feet (on a Federal Air Marshal, no less), so while I prefer sighted fire, I realize that in a dynamic, close range fight, my sights may turn out to be superfluous.
On the other hand, if I am faced with more of an active shooter scenario where I have a good shot from 25 yards or more, the RMR gives me the chance to not just get COM hits, but potentially take easy head shots at a stationary bad guy. Plus, hits on moving targets are easier as well, due to focal plane issues.
Again, other than cost and a bit of a learning curve, I really don't see any negatives to using an RMR. I do believe there is still room for improvement in the technology, but I believe the concept is sound.
exactamundo!
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 10:38
I'm glad to see you can be so dismissive of something you know nothing about.
What are talking about. I've seen people shot close range with handgun rounds. You can't see anything. So how are you going to walk your rounds on something when it give you no feedback?
What are talking about. I've seen people shot close range with handgun rounds. You can't see anything. So how are you going to walk your rounds on something when it give you no feedback?
The feedback comes in the form of the bad guy not standing there in front of you trying to do bad things.
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 11:06
The feedback comes in the form of the bad guy not standing there in front of you trying to do bad things.
lol so people who get shot stop what they are doing and fall down and stop? Ask Darren Wilson that.
What does any of this have to do with RDS'?
SQUIRREL!!!
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 11:29
What does any of this have to do with RDS'?
SQUIRREL!!!
Sorry for the thread drift. But some of the crap people are spewing here are the kinds of things you see on TOS.
Sorry for the thread drift. But some of the crap people are spewing here are the kinds of things you see on TOS.
It happens.
Going from close quarters / retention to extended / sighted fire with a RDS is about the same as transitioning to irons. As you move back and create space you bring the RDS into your focal plane the same way you do irons.
Just like everything there are pros and cons. For some the pros of the RDS outweigh the cons, for others the inverse is true.
Unfortunately it's a costly endeavor to "try out" and see how you like it. I was fortunate enough to get to play with one and I found the benefits of it to be worth experimenting in.
I'm cross dominant and I get a much better sight picture shooting both eyes open with the RDS than I do irons but for me I had troubles getting the first shot off as fast as I did with irons. With more dedicated practice I could overcome that, but my time for such has was limited (been working more on physical conditioning & H2H) so I reverted back to irons.
One thing about the RDS, it will show you exactly how much slop you have in your presentation until you work at it a lot and the dot starts showing up where it's supposed to every time. The rear sight behind the RDS may help with this and has been reported to by some, but I have not tried that set up so I don't know but it makes sense.
lol so people who get shot stop what they are doing and fall down and stop? Ask Darren Wilson that.
Who is alive and well today? Brown or Wilson? He shot the bad guy to the ground, exactly what you are supposed to do.
What are talking about. I've seen people shot close range with handgun rounds. You can't see anything. So how are you going to walk your rounds on something when it give you no feedback?
Who said anything about walking rounds in? this is about recognizing that sight picture is often blurry, obscured, incomplete, and knowing where your gun is pointed kinestheticly is of more import when targets are close. Then from there like I said in my first post putting the target within the sight hood and pressing the trigger lands hits fast and with acceptable accuracy. Past that the RMR is a brilliant aiming device.
If people don't react to being shot, what benefit is looking down my sights when firing on them instead of point shooting them?
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 13:03
Who is alive and well today? Brown or Wilson? He shot the bad guy to the ground, exactly what you are supposed to do.
You really need to read the timeline and report.
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 13:07
Point shooting is all walking rounds in by definition. In that video posted you can see that is exactly what he is doing. He is seeing his hits and correcting. Something he self admittedly practices a lot but still has to see his hits to correct. Every trainer that I've talked to that has shot another person has said that they saw the serrations of the front sight post while they were pulling the trigger. People like Scotty Rietz, Kyle Lamb and others have said as much. Just because some people get lucky and happen to land goods hits before the other guy doesn't make it a good system to use. I rather use sound training instead or relying on luck and happenstance.
Just because some people get lucky and happen to land goods hits before the other guy doesn't make it a good system to use. I rather use sound training instead or relying on luck and happenstance.
you should go to a force on force class. And I reiterate you are dismissive of something that you are ignorant about.
Apricotshot
10-29-14, 13:32
you should go to a force on force class. And I reiterate you are dismissive of something that you are ignorant about.
I have. I usually do pretty well too because I aimed with sights and people tried to point shoot.
I have. I usually do pretty well too because I aimed with sights and people tried to point shoot.
I doubt that since it is clear that you don't even understand what point shooting is. It certainly is NOT "walking rounds into a target". That's a laugh.
I don't know who you did FoF with, but when I have done it, those who stood still or "duckwalked" searching for a good two handed grip and sight picture got wasted fast. Sorry, but when both parties are in motion (and if there are multiple bad guys, as there often are), acquiring that perfect sight picture doesn't happen. If it does, that means bad guy 2 deals with you while you are dealing with #1.
Whatever. I shared with the OP my knowledge based on my experience with the RMR. Beyond that, I see this thread going to no sensible place.
4DAIVI PAI2K5
10-29-14, 13:52
I doubt that since it is clear that you don't even understand what point shooting is. It certainly is NOT "walking rounds into a target". That's a laugh.
I don't know who you did FoF with, but when I have done it, those who stood still or "duckwalked" searching for a good two handed grip and sight picture got wasted fast. Sorry, but when both parties are in motion (and if there are multiple bad guys, as there often are), acquiring that perfect sight picture doesn't happen. If it does, that means bad guy 2 deals with you while you are dealing with #1.
Whatever. I shared with the OP my knowledge based on my experience with the RMR. Beyond that, I see this thread going to no sensible place.
My FoF experience is similar to this. Get off the X and point shoot @ 7yrds.
WRT the fibre/tririum, I remember Grant posting that he uses the non-battery RM03, and it makes sense to me. No electronics to kill.
I am a fan of Crimson Trace laser grips for those shoot from retention type situations.
WRT the fibre/tririum, I remember Grant posting that he uses the non-battery RM03, and it makes sense to me. No electronics to kill.
I am a fan of Crimson Trace laser grips for those shoot from retention type situations.
Yeah, no battery is appealing for a go-to configuration of a carry pistol... that is, if it isn't a problem to utilize in a format where you might be shooting with a mounted weaponlight. If there is significant washout, then maybe the benefits aren't that much greater than just running irons, if you have to revert to them every time you use your light. I know in the low-light training that I've done, it's a good reminder to everyone to check their dot visibility with their light ON as their base brightness setting...
Some drills in classes with the late Louis Awerbuck, using a laser on a pistol, even in retention drills, gave me the impression they were more distracting than just taking the shot with fundamentals and good technique (proper draw and indexing), but that varies with experience probably. Just remember, good fundamentals and technique should never fail you, if they are drilled often enough and with proper instruction.
I also remember some other discussion at one point indicating that lasers on weapons (visible or IR), a la Special Forces operators, was more for them to reference *each other* and what they were covering/pointing at, more than for their own aiming. Food for thought, but heading off on a far tangent... :D
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