View Full Version : PMC Bronze Vs Wolf Gold .223?
Alright, so given that the Wolf Gold and PMC Bronze .223 are generally around the same price, which is worth the money?
PMC Bronze .223 is generally known as a "meh" weak round, but decent range fodder.
Wolf Gold is apparently the new hotness for folks on a budget.
But I hear good and bad- some guys are claiming awesome performance and accuracy, and other saying it's still pretty mediocre and not so accurate?
Which is it?
Does anyone have any hard accuracy comparison data between the two?
Chrono data on the two so they can be compared?
Exactly how underpowered and mediocre are we looking at here?
I did not see any direct comparison when I searched, hence the thread.
Eurodriver
10-25-14, 17:37
I have no hard data figures, but I have at least 2,000 rounds of use with both through the same rifles.
My subjective comparisons are: no difference in accuracy, the PMC is slightly less powerful (based on suppressed and unsuppressed sound/recoil)
If given a choice for 1000 rounds I would choose whichever was cheaper - even by a dollar.
Can't argue with Euro's assessment.
Can't argue with Euro's assessment.
I second this.
I shot some PMC Bronze 55g over my Chronograph once or twice, I don't have the data recorded, but I recall it floated between 26 -2700 FPS. Not very punchy and not very consistent either. I have not shot any wolf recently and have no chronograph data from it to share. I have always found PMC to feed and eject reliably and have had little trouble with it in both pistol and rifle calibers.
I generally roll my own and prefer shooting my loads.
SuaSponte175
10-25-14, 22:27
I agree with Eurodriver as well. As far as range ammo goes, just go with the cheaper option. I use PMC Bronze 55gr for range usage and haven't had any issues to date. I wish I had info on Wolf Gold for you but I haven't needed to buy more 5.56 yet.
I've shot both out of a 20". PMC Bronze did about 2850 fps. Wolf Gold did 3235 fps. It's been awhile since I've shot the PMC, I don't remeber the accuracy I got. The Wolf did 2-2.25" for 5 shots at 100 yds.
I've shot about 3k of each in the last year. For my type shooting, I see zero difference in the two. Both are the same @ 50 yd zero. My deciding factor on what I bring/shoot is if I have/want to leave the brass, the Wolfs are crimped. PMC isn't. If the brass is going to be left, I leave the Wolf.
JMO
My vote is for Wolf Gold. I have run a case of it in the last month or so and its my new go to. Never a hiccup and the brass is nice. Under $300 shipped makes me smile.
I've shot about 3k of each in the last year. For my type shooting, I see zero difference in the two. Both are the same @ 50 yd zero. My deciding factor on what I bring/shoot is if I have/want to leave the brass, the Wolfs are crimped. PMC isn't. If the brass is going to be left, I leave the Wolf.
JMO
Interesting.
I didn't know that.
mastiffhound
11-06-14, 01:42
I haven't shot PMC in a long time and won't buy it picking even Wolf steel cased over it. PMC is the only ammo that I've ever seen the case head separate. 5 rounds out of 100 with visible cracks in 11 more. My Mini is admittedly hard on cases but PMC is still junk. It's never ripped rims off of any other ammo from Wolf, Brown Bear, Privi, Winchester, Remington, Federal, American Eagle, Israeli surplus, Radway, or anything else that I just can't remember. I have no faith in a case that won't hold together when every other brand has.
MAC did a review on Wolf Gold sometime ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z7GB6RD4kI. A 1.5" 10 shot group was shown by MAC with a MR 556 and a 3045 fps average out of the same 16" barrel. It's loaded more to Nato spec than .223. The cases have sealant and are also annealed. I started reloading so I only buy ammo now when it's an insanely good deal. I picked up some Wolf Gold awhile ago at $295 for 1000 from Wideners and have had no problems with it at all. I probably have 20-40 rounds left. I would have bought more but I finally found some powder and primers so I went back to reloading.
I didn't see this thread until now. I am not sure if the OP is still curious. But here is some of my recent chrono data (10 shots each). This is all recent production ammo tested on the same day (about 65 to 70 degrees), same gun, same chrono set up, etc. This is out of a 16" barrel (an AR Performance 1:8 hybrid 5R Melonite/nitride barrel if it matters to you).
PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ
average velocity - 2622 FPS
extreme spread -108
standard deviation - 20
Wolf Gold 55gr FMJ
average velocity - 3030 FPS
extreme spread - 28
standard deviation - 10
Federal XM193 55gr FMJ
average velocity - 3062
extreme spread - 70
standard deviation - 23
CBC Magtech 77gr OTM (MK262 Mod 1 clone)
average velocity - 2629
extreme spread - 121
standard deviation - 30
My informal accuracy tests (at 100 yards) for both PMC and Wolf Gold in this gun shows them to be about the same. It is excellent for both.
I didn't test the XM193 or CBC Magtech for accuracy in this gun on this day.
Joe Mamma
JM, that is great. Thanks a lot.
If you remember, what kind of groups were you getting with the Gold ammo?
If the weather is good, I may try to get out this weekend and get some un-scientific accuracy data out of a basic PSA 1:7 CL barrel.
Around what Tom reported above, or a little better?
HappyPuppy
11-07-14, 19:47
I am
Hoping for some good Black Friday sales. Saving those pennies
JM, that is great. Thanks a lot.
If you remember, what kind of groups were you getting with the Gold ammo?
If the weather is good, I may try to get out this weekend and get some un-scientific accuracy data out of a basic PSA 1:7 CL barrel.
Around what Tom reported above, or a little better?
I think you can get a bit tighter grouping. I used a Burris MTAC when I got that group. 2.4 moa dot at a 100yds. With a fine plex I think it would shrink a bit.
Has anyone noticed the Blue Film left behind in the Bore and Muzzle Device from PMC Bronze .223? I don't notice that crap with any other ammo I'm shooting.
Has anyone noticed the Blue Film left behind in the Bore and Muzzle Device from PMC Bronze .223? I don't notice that crap with any other ammo I'm shooting.
That's just the unburnt kimchi. :jester:
On a seriously note. I have not. Then again it has been a while since I shot PMC in my ARs.
That's just the unburnt kimchi. :jester:
On a seriously note. I have not. Then again it has been a while since I shot PMC in my ARs.
LOL!!! That was a good one!
But no really I'm just wondering if that crap would cause corrosion, more so than just the standard black carbon left behind from other ammo. That blue junk is a PITA to remove inside the Muzzle Device. It doesn't happen when I shoot M193/855, Mk262, FGMM, AE .223 55gr etc.
I agree with PMC bronze not having as much velocity as Wolf Gold. I also found the brass not being ejected as far as almost anything else. Rifle was BCM 16" middy. Shooting prone, PMC brass got maybe a couple feet, where everything else got thrown quite a bit further.
JM, that is great. Thanks a lot.
If you remember, what kind of groups were you getting with the Gold ammo?
If the weather is good, I may try to get out this weekend and get some un-scientific accuracy data out of a basic PSA 1:7 CL barrel.
Around what Tom reported above, or a little better?
I think it was right about 2" at 100 yards. I know that may not sound very good. But that was excellent for me, with that gun/optic, on that day, etc.
Joe Mamma
LOL!!! That was a good one!
But no really I'm just wondering if that crap would cause corrosion, more so than just the standard black carbon left behind from other ammo. That blue junk is a PITA to remove inside the Muzzle Device. It doesn't happen when I shoot M193/855, Mk262, FGMM, AE .223 55gr etc.
Am out at the moment so this be quick. But could be reaction between cleaning solvent and copper. Will make more guesses in this regard as soon as i get home.
LOL!!! That was a good one!
But no really I'm just wondering if that crap would cause corrosion, more so than just the standard black carbon left behind from other ammo. That blue junk is a PITA to remove inside the Muzzle Device. It doesn't happen when I shoot M193/855, Mk262, FGMM, AE .223 55gr etc.
Okay, I am back and did check one of my rifles that has been more PMC Bronze recently than the others. Did appear that perhaps there might be some pale blue residue at the muzzle near the flash hider, though it could have been just the light and soot that had built up. Now I did have a similar thing going on with one of my BCMs the other week, but it was more of a green residue. My thoughts at the time, and still are, that it was just copper fouling that took on a patina due to the solvent used wit clean the bore out. I know some will turn the fouling blue or greenish if I am remembering correctly so that was my assumption. The one with the green residue cleaned up fine and doesn't show any at the moment following being cleaned last time. Won't be this time, but I have a baggy of PMC Bronze that is on the rotation to be shot up, will run through it and before cleaning inspect my BCM and see if I see the same thing. Will likely be a couple weeks before I get the chance though.
Has anyone noticed the Blue Film left behind in the Bore and Muzzle Device from PMC Bronze .223? I don't notice that crap with any other ammo I'm shooting.
Am out at the moment so this be quick. But could be reaction between cleaning solvent and copper. Will make more guesses in this regard as soon as i get home.
Have shot PMC a LOT of the past couple years.
I have had 1 experience with the green residue.
The entire inside of my rifle turned green.....
Also from time to time I find that after cleaning, there will be a little green residue on the inside of the FH.
After my whole rifle turned green I freaked out and posted a thread here about it... :o
Apparently it is a thing with either the copper residue + burnt powder reacting to moisture, or potentially a cleaning solvent like Hoppes reacting to the copper.
No big deal apparently- should clean right off. Being my picky self though, I wouldn't let it sit for long in that condition...
You may find these two threads helpful;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?53546-Green-residue-on-bolt
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?141755-Is-My-AR-Corroded-Or-Otherwise-FUBAR-d-Pics-Included-New-Update
When you say green residue, is this what you are referring to? If so, complete normal from some ammo.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5033/14243869037_f0d0f97e71_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nGFy1V)STCK0710-1-A-1200-Stick (https://flic.kr/p/nGFy1V) by stickgunner (https://www.flickr.com/people/37988104@N07/), on Flickr
Photo courtesy of Stickman.
Have shot PMC a LOT of the past couple years.
I have had 1 experience with the green residue.
The entire inside of my rifle turned green.....
Also from time to time I find that after cleaning, there will be a little green residue on the inside of the FH.
After my whole rifle turned green I freaked out and posted a thread here about it... :o
Apparently it is a thing with either the copper residue + burnt powder reacting to moisture, or potentially a cleaning solvent like Hoppes reacting to the copper.
No big deal apparently- should clean right off. Being my picky self though, I wouldn't let it sit for long in that condition...
You may find these two threads helpful;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?53546-Green-residue-on-bolt
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?141755-Is-My-AR-Corroded-Or-Otherwise-FUBAR-d-Pics-Included-New-Update
I use hoppes so that would seem to be a good chance that the Hoppes and the fact that my basement was humid during that period could have caused a reaction in the gun to great some green residue. Though, as I said, it cleaned up fine and function and accuracy was not effected so no worries.
When you say green residue, is this what you are referring to? If so, complete normal from some ammo.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5033/14243869037_f0d0f97e71_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nGFy1V)STCK0710-1-A-1200-Stick (https://flic.kr/p/nGFy1V) by stickgunner (https://www.flickr.com/people/37988104@N07/), on Flickr
Photo courtesy of Stickman.
Yes, kind of, but not to that extent, likely because at the time the rifle only had a couple hundred rounds through it.
I've shot and have a lot of both, still. I haven't chrono'd any of it, but I find as far as accuracy goes, generally the Wolf Gold is more accurate, however not in every rifle. I have one that really loves it, and a couple where the Wolf and PMC are about the same, and another that shoots the Wolf 3" at 100 and the PMC at about 1.5" or so at 100yds.
Similar to bolt action hunting guns, where one rifle will love one load, and another in the same caliber will spit it all over the place.
J
Yes, kind of, but not to that extent, likely because at the time the rifle only had a couple hundred rounds through it.
Good god man, where did you store your rifle afterwards? That blue residue, as mentioned by a previous posted is oxidized copper (think the Statue of Liberty)...
I vote Wolff Gold... I've shot a ton of both and the Wolff is heads and shoulders above the PMC. That reminds me.. about time to buy another couple of cases.
Good god man, where did you store your rifle afterwards? That blue residue, as mentioned by a previous posted is oxidized copper (think the Statue of Liberty)...
I vote Wolff Gold... I've shot a ton of both and the Wolff is heads and shoulders above the PMC. That reminds me.. about time to buy another couple of cases.
In my gun safe, in my basement. At the time we had some issues with humidity though so that was likely the issue. Have since resolved that particular issue.
falconman515
02-08-15, 07:09
Was looking at order a 1,000 box of .223 rounds soon
I have shot PMC fine but it is OOS right now
But I run across this Wolf Gold and it's $15 less (295 for PMC 280 for Wolf Gold 1K Box) and I was wanting to know more.
Also my gun is new so I feel uncomfortable ordering a thousand rounds of something that I have not shot before.
But the price is really good for 1K
Hmmm .. to wait for PMC to be back in stock or try my luck on the Wolf?
+1 for Wolf or whatever is cheapest. No problems through my BCM 14.5 middy or PWS at all.
Wolf is fine. And it's cheaper. I've had no issues with it. (11.5" and 14.5" BCMs)
There's been a few threads on various sites about wolf being very close to 556-type performance.
Personally, I've shot a boat load of wolf through my old bushmaster and my newer DD V11, and I think it does well. Certainly performs better than I do. :)
In my experience, the Wolf has a bit more velocity than the PMC (the brown and black box, not the X-Tac). While PMC brass would only get a couple of feet out of the ejection port, the Wolf ejected textbook. I would have no problems buying and using the wolf gold. The guy on the left of me at the last carbine class shot it exclusively through a SCAR and an AR with no issues.
I have gone through over 1k of the wolf gold stuff in the last couple months with great results.
falconman515
02-10-15, 03:52
In my experience, the Wolf has a bit more velocity than the PMC (the brown and black box, not the X-Tac). While PMC brass would only get a couple of feet out of the ejection port, the Wolf ejected textbook. I would have no problems buying and using the wolf gold. The guy on the left of me at the last carbine class shot it exclusively through a SCAR and an AR with no issues.
Seems like I have read this a lot now about Wolf Gold having better velocity then PMC Bronze.
So if I can save 15 bucks on 1k rounds by going with Wolf over PMC it sounds like it's worth it.
So in it having better velocity out the gate then PMC will that also help target accuracy in the 100-200 yards range at all?
I'm wanting the best budget paper punching accurate ammo I can find
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