View Full Version : 10.5" "pistol" vs 14.5" carbine for bedside duty
Hey guys, got some money to burn and I'm trying to decide which way to go. I currently have a 14.5" BCM KMR ELW (pinned to 16.1) as my "go to" AR. I also recently put together a pistol lower with a sig sb-15 brace. Riding on it now is an old 10.5 A2 upper I picked up cheap at a gun show.
I'm trying to decide if I should buy a 10.5" A4 upper to put on my pistol lower for bedside duty or just use the 14.5 BCM. For those who have ran both do you think 4" is significant in a home defense role? Also do you think it's worth the legal "risk" of using a pistol with SB-15 for home defense? Obviously legal issues are less important than survival, but is the 4" worth any increase in legal attention?
Right now I have no kids, so if I hear a window crash I'm posting up which kind of means length is irrelevant. But kids are in the near future which changes things up a little.
I know the BCM 11.5 is highly recommended but that makes them even closer to the same size.
Whichever you feel you can shoot best. My house is a maneuvering nightmare, so I run a 10.5 SBR with no can. I'd much rather run a BCM 14.5 ELW KMR, but my house flat sucks if I have to leave my room.
I don't know but I'm literally contemplating the same... Looking forward to answers.
plouffedaddy
10-29-14, 19:52
I don't know that anyone here can answer it for you as it really depends largely on skill/comfort/circumstances. Lots of guys have a hard time maneuvering with a carbine but lots don't... But, if you think it may be an issue then maybe the 10.5'' is the way to go. If not, the extra velocity (and possible reliability as well as less blast/concussion) from the 14.5'' is probably the way to go.
wildcard600
10-29-14, 19:55
FWIW my 11.5 BCM pistol has replaced my 16" carbine for HD duty. I really don't see the point of a longer barrel in a HD role, with the exception of increased muzzle blast.
YMMV
turnburglar
10-29-14, 20:00
Imo which ear pro you have next to your bed, is more important than ~4" of barrel on a 556 gun.
Personally I'd use the carbine just to avoid even bringing the brace to the spotlight. Unless you get a can for the 10.5. That would be ideal.
Who is going to futz with ear pro when your glass breaks at 3am when someone wants to get their rape on?
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I have used both the 16 inch and 10.5 inch w/brace as my HD AR. The 10.5 is more manuverable but either one will do the job. My personal preference for HD is the 10.5
Marshall Dillon
10-29-14, 23:11
I'm currently building both 10.5" (Palmetto State Armory) and 11.5" (BCM) pistols for HD purposes. Both will have Thordsen Custom Enhanced Pistol Builder's Kits as opposed to the SIG Brace. I prefer the more maneuverable/shorter weapon systems inside the house. I have a Tavor and a PS90 SBR as well. Both are well suited for HD roles but my personal preference is the AR platform so I'm building both pistols for testing and evaluation. My 16" AR's are appropriately set up and aimed to fill roles outside of the home.
SBR it if you can. If not, 14.5".
turnburglar
10-30-14, 00:41
Who is going to futz with ear pro when your glass breaks at 3am when someone wants to get their rape on?
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Anyone that's not married.....
Edit:
I found this a very informative read. What I took from it is brakes are bad. And apparently 9mm is worse than 556? Didn't figure that. With modern hand guards it's pretty easy to hang muffs and don them fairly quickly. Some people may feel loosing one of their senses warrants an extra second or 3. Some won't.
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
Bringing the "Sig brace" into the spotlight means nothing. I would love to meet Mr. Imawakeupanduseearpro because many people are going to be sleeping and probably be lucky to engage with a clear head.
The shorter weapon is the logical choice in a confined space which is why use them to begin with.
Eurodriver
10-30-14, 05:45
I can't really think of anything dumber than completely eliminating one of your senses while in your home, at night, with an intruder present.
What's next? Sunglasses to prevent blindness from muzzle flash? In reality a 14.5" or even a 20" is fine. This isn't the movies and no one is going to be hiding around a corner that you'll need to pie the doorway for. You will find them either rummaging through your things or standing above you with the AR you left in the open next to the bed.
Heck, my HD AR is a 7.5" loaded with ballistic tip varmint rounds. But then again I also sleep next to my .45, 870, and a Mora. If I were to build an AR specifically for HD, I'd go 14.5" mid. They're short enough for easy handling and that way you're guaranteed proper tissue damage.
I can't really think of anything dumber than completely eliminating one of your senses while in your home, at night, with an intruder present.
What's next? Sunglasses to prevent blindness from muzzle flash? In reality a 14.5" or even a 20" is fine. This isn't the movies and no one is going to be hiding around a corner that you'll need to pie the doorway for. You will find them either rummaging through your things or standing above you with the AR you left in the open next to the bed.
I'm kind of going with this. I'm certainly no expert, but since this is about a HD choice I'll give my thoughts on my selection process.
You need to look at the most likely scenario. Obviously securing your loved ones or even your mother-in-law is the number one priority. Fortunately in my case all of the bedrooms are located on the second floor at the end of a hallway, with the bathroom located at the midway point down the hallway. My "plan" is to move all of the family to the master bedroom and ensconce myself at the bathroom and wait for the cavalry. If necessary, the stairs leading to the second floor hallway can become the "fatal funnel" with the ability to fall back. For me, either my 16" or 14'5" fits my needs. Some may say it sounds Walter Mitty, but I prefer to think of it as my family HD "Learn Not To Burn" plan. My actual "Learn Not To Burn" plan includes an escape ladder in the master bedroom closet so escape remains an option.
Obviously, if your plan to secure your family requires you to move room to room, the 10.5" may be the better choice. Before you decide try and find somebody with a 10.5" and shoot it on an indoor range. I shot a buddy's 10.5 on an indoor range and all I can say is... DAMN, just DAMN! Maybe I'm just a pussy, but the walls amplify the blast and concussion to the point of rattling fillings.
To me the logical choice is a suppressed SBR (or short upper with a sig brace). Say a 10.3"-11.5" + the suppressor
I can't really think of anything dumber than completely eliminating one of your senses while in your home, at night, with an intruder present.
Ever hear of electronic earmuffs? Go poke around this very site for reviews on something like the MSA Sordin Supreme ear muffs...you'll see a lot of people report that they hear better with them on than with the naked ear.
Heck, my HD AR is a 7.5" loaded with ballistic tip varmint rounds. But then again I also sleep next to my .45, 870, and a Mora. If I were to build an AR specifically for HD, I'd go 14.5" mid. They're short enough for easy handling and that way you're guaranteed proper tissue damage.
A 7.5" AR? With varmint rounds? Why would a person want/choose that for defense?
I'm kind of going with this. I'm certainly no expert, but since this is about a HD choice I'll give my thoughts on my selection process.
You need to look at the most likely scenario. Obviously securing your loved ones or even your mother-in-law is the number one priority. Fortunately in my case all of the bedrooms are located on the second floor at the end of a hallway, with the bathroom located at the midway point down the hallway. My "plan" is to move all of the family to the master bedroom and ensconce myself at the bathroom and wait for the cavalry. If necessary, the stairs leading to the second floor hallway can become the "fatal funnel" with the ability to fall back. For me, either my 16" or 14'5" fits my needs. Some may say it sounds Walter Mitty, but I prefer to think of it as my family HD "Learn Not To Burn" plan. My actual "Learn Not To Burn" plan includes an escape ladder in the master bedroom closet so escape remains an option.
Obviously, if your plan to secure your family requires you to move room to room, the 10.5" may be the better choice. Before you decide try and find somebody with a 10.5" and shoot it on an indoor range. I shot a buddy's 10.5 on an indoor range and all I can say is... DAMN, just DAMN! Maybe I'm just a pussy, but the walls amplify the blast and concussion to the point of rattling fillings.
Food for thought: What if your need of a home defense rifle/carbine doesn't happen at night when everybody is in their bedrooms? People always seem to assume the only time anybody will break into their home will be at night when everybody in the house is in their bedroom. Murphy's Law and all that...
Thanks for all of the suggestions and things to consider.
Sounds like I need to buy a 10.5/11.5 upper and do direct comparisons to the 14.5.
The 14.5 kmr elw balances so much better than my current 10.5 A2 upper that the 14.5 is easier for me to use but that's hardly a fair comparison.
Marshall Dillion, if you don't mind could you keep me in the loop with your findings? I considered a 10.5 PSA upper, but the deals on BCMs right now makes it tough.
To me the logical choice is a suppressed SBR (or short upper with a sig brace). Say a 10.3"-11.5" + the suppressor
Ever hear of electronic earmuffs? Go poke around this very site for reviews on something like the MSA Sordin Supreme ear muffs...you'll see a lot of people report that they hear better with them on than with the naked ear.
A 7.5" AR? With varmint rounds? Why would a person want/choose that for defense?
Food for thought: What if your need of a home defense rifle/carbine doesn't happen at night when everybody is in their bedrooms? People always seem to assume the only time anybody will break into their home will be at night when everybody in the house is in their bedroom. Murphy's Law and all that...
The OP was asking about a bedside gun so I addressed his question. In my home during waking hours a handgun is on my person or immediately accessible, but the retreat to the bedrooms or escape are still in play.
Eurodriver
10-30-14, 07:53
To me the logical choice is a suppressed SBR (or short upper with a sig brace). Say a 10.3"-11.5" + the suppressor
Ever hear of electronic earmuffs? Go poke around this very site for reviews on something like the MSA Sordin Supreme ear muffs...you'll see a lot of people report that they hear better with them on than with the naked ear.
Absolutely. 10.5" Suppressed is the way to go.
I have heard of electronic earmuffs. I've also heard of batteries failing, tunnel vision, nervousness, shaking, and all sorts of other shit that you don't want to complicate by adding another step. This is why many people prefer Glocks - there is no safety to malfunction, forget about, or any of that.
Nobody ever responded to violence of action with making sure their PPE was appropriately donned. On the other hand, standing naked at the top of the stairs with an AR15 and ear muffs on while backlit by the nightlight would make for a pretty terrifying view for any intruder.
Absolutely. 10.5" Suppressed is the way to go.
I have heard of electronic earmuffs. I've also heard of batteries failing, tunnel vision, nervousness, shaking, and all sorts of other shit that you don't want to complicate by adding another step. This is why many people prefer Glocks - there is no safety to malfunction, forget about, or any of that.
Nobody ever responded to violence of action with making sure their PPE was appropriately donned. On the other hand, standing naked at the top of the stairs with an AR15 and ear muffs on while backlit by the nightlight would make for a pretty terrifying view for any intruder.
Everything is a give and take. Electronic earmuffs may allow you to hear more/better while also helping to prevent any disorientation or hearing loss from the concussion of firing 5.56 indoors. Even short term you may want to hear as well as possible both before AND after discharging the rifle.
I personally haven't and don't keep my electronic muffs ready, but I can totally understand why somebody might. If I didn't have a suppressor on my rifle I might seriously consider the earmuffs staying at the ready since 5.56 is so freaking loud
A 7.5" AR? With varmint rounds? Why would a person want/choose that for defense?
Explosive expansion/fragmentation down to 1700 fps or so, zero chance of over-penetration (I have a family)... the thugs around here aren't know to wear body armor so I imagine a shallow but wide wound would probably produce enough shock to allow unimpeded follow up shots (and it does have a SD-3G on it). It wouldn't normally be my first choice, but since I have it, I may as well use it for something. It's proven itself reliable, which is a lot more than can be said for a lot of 7.5" ARs. That being said, I would grab my .45 with HSTs first, then probably the 870 with #1 buck if I had time. I would only go for the 7.5 if it were close at hand when the break-in happened.
Now if a group of armed assailants filtered through my house, I'd definitely grab a 14.5 or 16" with a Pmag 40 loaded with mk318 or 262 if I had the time. But I don't really seeing that as being a realistic possibility.
Berserkr556
10-30-14, 09:12
I would love to meet Mr. Imawakeupanduseearpro because many people are going to be sleeping and probably be lucky to engage with a clear head.
Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Mr. Imawakeupanduseearpro. I use electronic ear pro which amplifies my hearing until the bang. It all has to do with training. You guys bucking the ear pro for HD spend hours training for a fight that may never come but fail to train for a home defense situation which is much more likely to happen. I can be dead asleep and hear a noise that isn't right and be awake. I have an early warning system which sleeps in the main room. If a window breaks or door flies off the hinges my ear pro goes on before my feet hit the deck. I've trained for the event and on occasion still do so. You guys with a suppressor obviously don't need ear pro but you guys without are in for a big surprise. Once that SBR goes off in your home you won't hear a damn thing. What if you missed the bad guy ? Now you can't hear. Laugh all you want but I have first hand experience that it works and there's one less home invader in the world as proof.
To answer the OP, 11.5 BCM
Electronic ear pro can enhance hearing, could be an advantage assuming you had time to use it. If you don't have a can I guess it can't hurt to have the option.
Personally my first choice would be SBR, second choice would be 14.5 and third would be the pistol, but then again AR pistols have never felt right to me
I can't really think of anything dumber than completely eliminating one of your senses while in your home, at night, with an intruder present.
No doubt. I'd rather be deaf and upright than buried with perfect hearing.
Allow me to introduce myself. I'm Mr. Imawakeupanduseearpro. I use electronic ear pro which amplifies my hearing until the bang. It all has to do with training. You guys bucking the ear pro for HD spend hours training for a fight that may never come but fail to train for a home defense situation which is much more likely to happen. I can be dead asleep and hear a noise that isn't right and be awake. I have an early warning system which sleeps in the main room. If a window breaks or door flies off the hinges my ear pro goes on before my feet hit the deck. I've trained for the event and on occasion still do so. You guys with a suppressor obviously don't need ear pro but you guys without are in for a big surprise. Once that SBR goes off in your home you won't hear a damn thing. What if you missed the bad guy ? Now you can't hear. Laugh all you want but I have first hand experience that it works and there's one less home invader in the world as proof.
To answer the OP, 11.5 BCM
as a proponent, what do you suggest for electric ear pro? ive got howard leights on the night stand, but now that i'm sold i want something better. do you leave them powered on or is that part of your training regimen too?
wildcard600
10-30-14, 10:14
Just rack a shotgun amd the intruder will run for dear life anyway. who needs ear pro and an AR ???
I'm sticking with my suppressed 10.5" AR w/ Mk262. I did keep electronic ear pro in the nightstand before the can. Now, it's not so much of a concern.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know I'm naive to it all, but hearing loss occurs over time. You aren't deaf after 4 rounds in a confined space. If I recall there wasn't a whole of ear pro rolling around in conflicts in the past... Not trying to derail but in all honesty, I think your placing yourself in a disadvantage trying to put ear pro on at the very moment someone breaks glass. Hell, I can't even find my pisser some nights and that's about high level of training as you can get with regards to frequency. What if you had some drinks on this hypothetical night?
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wildcard600
10-30-14, 11:44
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know I'm naive to it all, but hearing loss occurs over time. You aren't deaf after 4 rounds in a confined space. If I recall there wasn't a whole of ear pro rolling around in conflicts in the past... Not trying to derail but in all honesty, I think your placing yourself in a disadvantage trying to put ear pro on at the very moment someone breaks glass. Hell, I can't even find my pisser some nights and that's about high level of training as you can get with regards to frequency. What if you had some drinks on this hypothetical night?
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i practice donning a level 7 hazmat suit every night before bed in case of intruder with ebola. you are obviously not training hard enough.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know I'm naive to it all, but hearing loss occurs over time. You aren't deaf after 4 rounds in a confined space. If I recall there wasn't a whole of ear pro rolling around in conflicts in the past... Not trying to derail but in all honesty, I think your placing yourself in a disadvantage trying to put ear pro on at the very moment someone breaks glass. Hell, I can't even find my pisser some nights and that's about high level of training as you can get with regards to frequency. What if you had some drinks on this hypothetical night?
Hearing loss is cumulative.
And individual incidents can cause it too. It's not like ~165 dB gunshots (especially indoors, in your house, in your bedroom maybe) won't harm your hearing just because there are only one or a handful of them.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know I'm naive to it all, but hearing loss occurs over time. You aren't deaf after 4 rounds in a confined space. If I recall there wasn't a whole of ear pro rolling around in conflicts in the past... Not trying to derail but in all honesty, I think your placing yourself in a disadvantage trying to put ear pro on at the very moment someone breaks glass. Hell, I can't even find my pisser some nights and that's about high level of training as you can get with regards to frequency. What if you had some drinks on this hypothetical night?
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i dont drink, i buy more ammo. i dont know about you, but my plan is pretty simple. all the bed rooms are on the 2nd floor, i have no intention of "checking it out". get in the kids room, close the door and instruct family to call police.
Ever hear of electronic earmuffs? Go poke around this very site for reviews on something like the MSA Sordin Supreme ear muffs...you'll see a lot of people report that they hear better with them on than with the naked ear.
IMO I don't care how good they are or how much better I can hear with them. The thing is that you can't accurately determine where the sound is coming from or how far it is with ANY type of ear pro that amplifies noise. That's the reason I don't use them for home defense or hunting for that matter. YMMV though.
To the op practice some dry and safe room clearing at your home when no one is around with a loaned short barrel upper and you're current carbine and go from there.
There is no downside to storing electronic hearing pro by the gun. You don't have to worry about not having time to put it on. If you don't have time, doesn't that take care of itself? It will just sit there. If you do have time; enhancing your hearing while also protecting it and preserving your ability to communicate seems like a good idea to me. Similarly, I have body armor under my bed that I can put on with one hand. If I don't have time to get to it, so be it. But I'd feel silly if I got ventilated and could have thrown on BA (that I already owned anyway) and simply didn't make available to myself because I thought I might not have time to don it. A can would be better but ironically, this thread is about barrel length and a can on a 10.5" is probably longer than the 14.5".
As many a room in combat have been cleared with the M4 14.5" barrel and as the ideal tactic would be to wait in a barricade position, I'd use the one I can place rounds on target the fastest and most accurately. I'm not sure how stable those braces are in comparison to a real stock having never used one myself.
I'm sticking with my suppressed 10.5" AR w/ Mk262. I did keep electronic ear pro in the nightstand before the can. Now, it's not so much of a concern.
Thats what I use to the "t". The whole set up ends up just a bit shorter than a 16" barreled upper but I dont find maneuvering around my house at all difficult. Somebody mentioned a Sig-Brace, it is a great option for an HD short barreled AR as I dont mess with the LOP on my HD weapon. Also a plus if you dont want to mess with SBR paperwork and permission fines.
10.3" MK 18 SBR with an AAC Mini4 and I am at less length than a 14.5".
Berserkr556
10-30-14, 16:33
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know I'm naive to it all, but hearing loss occurs over time. You aren't deaf after 4 rounds in a confined space.
Really ? I can tell you've never fired a rifle in confined quarters. You fire a rifle, especially an SBR inside your home and you'll most likely be deaf temporarily. Most experience a sharp pain in the ears and either a loud ringing or no sound at all. Either way you won't hear squat and if the bad guy is still kicking you've lost the ability to hear him moving in your home. I speak from experience. I may be new here but I'm not some young punk that doesn't know anything. Don't believe me, I don't care, go fire some rounds inside a house and come tell me about it.
But that's where you are wrong friend. I most certainly have shot a rifle in a shoot house, although I was wearing plugs. Before we start measuring Pistons, I'm sure your the man. That being said the point I was trying to make was in weighing dicking with ear pro when your asleep vs. ringing in your ear from firing a couple rounds, I'll take the ringing in my ears. How many rounds do you plan to spend mowing down an intruder anyway? "As many as it takes" yea I get it.. It's silly talk. Look at data on break ins, weapons used, rounds fired. On a final note, if your disarmed(which I'm sure you don't think would ever happen) when it goes to bad breath distance, your likely to be at a disadvantage with a nice choker stuck on your head.
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wildcard600
10-30-14, 16:58
Just smear yourself in feces and jump out at the intruder waving you dick in your hand. fight will end right there.
But that's where you are wrong friend. I most certainly have shot a rifle in a shoot house, although I was wearing plugs. Before we start measuring Pistons, I'm sure your the man. That being said the point I was trying to make was in weighing dicking with ear pro when your asleep vs. ringing in your ear from firing a couple rounds, I'll take the ringing in my ears. How many rounds do you plan to spend mowing down an intruder anyway? "As many as it takes" yea I get it.. It's silly talk. Look at data on break ins, weapons used, rounds fired. On a final note, if your disarmed(which I'm sure you don't think would ever happen) when it goes to bad breath distance, your likely to be at a disadvantage with a nice choker stuck on your head.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I know I'm naive to it all, but hearing loss occurs over time. You aren't deaf after 4 rounds in a confined space.
Maybe go without them next time. It won't hurt anything right?
He has a valid point about potentially not being able to hear after you fire those shots. Hearing nothing but ringing in your ears is inferior to having enhanced hearing from electronic earmuffs, no?
I think everybody should just get a suppressed SBR and then not have to worry about it. :)
10.X for me as well. Pistol first then SBR. While you might not be clearing rooms you might just have to run. :)
Marshall Dillon
10-30-14, 21:40
Marshall Dillion, if you don't mind could you keep me in the loop with your findings? I considered a 10.5 PSA upper, but the deals on BCMs right now makes it tough.
Will do, Buddy. I should have them both built in the next two weeks and then range testing will begin. I had the same issue you seem to be having with respect to selecting which one to get...PSA or BCM so I bit the bullet and bought both. Once I get some trigger time on both I'll circle back...
Really ? I can tell you've never fired a rifle in confined quarters. You fire a rifle, especially an SBR inside your home and you'll most likely be deaf temporarily. Most experience a sharp pain in the ears and either a loud ringing or no sound at all. Either way you won't hear squat and if the bad guy is still kicking you've lost the ability to hear him moving in your home. I speak from experience. I may be new here but I'm not some young punk that doesn't know anything. Don't believe me, I don't care, go fire some rounds inside a house and come tell me about it.
Fire inside just once and never forget!
HackerF15E
10-31-14, 00:42
I wonder how many of you have actually been awakened from REM sleep at 0300 by the alarm going off in your house, groggily tried to orient yourself to what the hell was going on, grabbed your HD light/firearm, and then did something about it.
I think a lot of people seriously overestimate their capacity for fine motor skills and higher level thought in that scenario. I have been in that situation twice (once for an alarm malf, but another time for someone trying to pry open a door), and based on those experiences I know for me, for certain, there's no way I'm going to have the clarity of thought to grab and don earpro in that situation.
3ACR_Scout
10-31-14, 01:37
I have to agree with those who have pointed out that it can't hurt to have ear pro next to your bed (something which I haven't planned for myself but am now thinking about). As with many discussions, people are looking at extremes (e.g. REM sleep at 0300). My only personal experience with this was when my alarm went off at midnight, the night before I was moving out of my old house eight years ago. I had just gotten into bed and was still wide awake when it happened. I checked out things downstairs (maybe not the smartest way to do it) and realized that I had arranged for the phone service to be shut off the day I left, so when they turned it off exactly at midnight, my alarm system activated, thinking that someone had cut the line. In restrospect, since I was wide awake at the time, it would have been an easy step to put on electronic ear pro. As others have said, it can't hurt to have them nearby, and if you don't have the time or capacity to put them on, then you're no worse off than not having them at all. Still, I'd like to eventually get to where I have a supressor, but for now it's a pistol to get me to the 14.5" if time allows.
Dave
I'm sorry, I think keeping hearing protection on your nightstand is completely ridiculous. Even if you did have a chance to put them on first, you'd be at a tactical disadvantage as your intruder would be able to hear better than you. Plus, I'd rather suffer from temporary or even permanent hearing loss than get fatally shot.
I stand by my previous post - a handgun should be your first line of defense (easy to grab, easy to maneuver with, hard to disarm), then a 12 ga pump (nobody wants to get shot with that), then AR if you find yourself waking up to a team of trained killers in your home. It's like I always say, you can't keep an AR on your nightstand (although I sleep with one on my bed sometimes - drives the fiancee nuts).
I'm sorry, I think keeping hearing protection on your nightstand is completely ridiculous. Even if you did have a chance to put them on first, you'd be at a tactical disadvantage as your intruder would be able to hear better than you. Plus, I'd rather suffer from temporary or even permanent hearing loss than get fatally shot.
I stand by my previous post - a handgun should be your first line of defense (easy to grab, easy to maneuver with, hard to disarm), then a 12 ga pump (nobody wants to get shot with that), then AR if you find yourself waking up to a team of trained killers in your home. It's like I always say, you can't keep an AR on your nightstand (although I sleep with one on my bed sometimes - drives the fiancee nuts).
What electronic hearing protection have you used?
Also, I (and many others) will have to disagree with your assertion that a 12 gauge pump is superior to an AR.
Survival has it's price and everyone has to make their own choices. I've talked to a few gunfight survivors and all paid a price of one kind or another, up to and including a few feet of intestines. If one person keeps ear protection nearby and another does not, who are any of us to judge that decision? Will wearing ears help or hinder? Will it get you killed? If the later, what's that say about guys like me who suffer from partial hearing loss? What about someone who needs hearing aids? When something goes bump in the night, I also have the added disadvantage of waking up nearly blind until I put on my glasses. Try that one on for size- waking up everyday deaf, blind and disoriented, then add to that the panic of wondering if someone is lurking in your house. Each individual has their own situation and must decide how to work with it in their own way.
Shooting without ears will damage your hearing. Even the lowly 22 rimfire will cause damage if protection isn't worn. Survival has it's price. Get into a fight for your life and you will pay it. The only thing we can do is to be ready to pay what is required and take steps to minimize that cost where we can. On the one hand, electronic ear muff will protect your hearing if you have to shoot indoors. On the other, there may not be time. No one can say to another "You must not keep ears by your bed" and no one can say to another "You must keep ears by your bed" any more than we can say to one another you must grab a rifle or handgun or shotgun to defend yourself. Truth is, we won't know what choice needs to made will be until we're forced to make that choice. The best we can do is pick what our best choices are going to be ahead of time.
Point is, it's ridiculous to argue whether or not to have ears available prior to gunfight. Instead, we should be discussing whether or not we can train ourselves to be more alert upon waking although that is not what this thread is about
not trying to derail anything here, but to add to the discussion a little, if OP uses his evil modified AR in a HD situation, will an attorney pick apart his AR and accuse him of adding parts specifically designed to kill and cause extreme mayhem?!
ive heard of this happening with folks who put in aftermarket triggers on their carry handguns.
someone even told me its iegal to modify your carry gun for this reason.
we all know these concepts are ridiculous. in my mind, modifications only serve to increase accuracy and lesson the danger of stray rounds.
thoughts?
eta: oh yea. 10.5 all day long
if OP uses his evil modified AR in a HD situation, will an attorney pick apart his AR and accuse him of adding parts specifically designed to kill and cause extreme mayhem?! ive heard of this happening with folks who put in aftermarket triggers on their carry handguns.
I dare defy plead beg implore anyone to show me an actual case(and I want the case number and a link to the story)where a otherwise good self defense shooting was deemed bad and the shooter found guilty of manslaughter or homicide due to the type weapon ammo or legal modifications made to it.
turnburglar
10-31-14, 13:26
not trying to derail anything here, but to add to the discussion a little, if OP uses his evil modified AR in a HD situation, will an attorney pick apart his AR and accuse him of adding parts specifically designed to kill and cause extreme mayhem?!
I am not an attorney. With that said:
I have read in full the laws governing my land (Nevada Nrs 202) it mentions switch blades, discharging a firearm from a vehicle, and various other specific forms of mischief. No where at ANY point, does it say ANYTHING about modifying your ccw piece. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate it if someone could cite the exact code.
As for a prosecutor villianizing your firearm because it's not a ruger 10/22.... That sounds like an incredibly easy rebuttal for any defense attorney. Whether or not you used a tablespoon or an assault rifle: you're being tried for justifiable homicide. It's the juries job to agree whether or not that homicide was justified, not rate you from mall ninja- Spartan.
I dare defy plead beg implore anyone to show me an actual case(and I want the case number and a link to the story)where a otherwise good self defense shooting was deemed bad and the shooter found guilty of manslaughter or homicide due to the type weapon ammo or legal modifications made to it.
Even beyond that, at least for me personally, if I'm in a HD situation, I'm defending not just myself but my wife and children. Even if the best tool for the job would net me a stint in prison, I'd gladly make that trade to keep my family safe.
What if you missed the bad guy ? Now you can't hear. Laugh all you want but I have first hand experience that it works and there's one less home invader in the world as proof.
Care to expound on your experience with specific details? Additionally I have twice inadvertently fired off a round(one a 10MM auto negligent discharge in my closed garage)the other a 5.56 at a indoor range no larger than my living room.(both without hearing protection). I didn't go temporarily deaf or piss myself and drop the weapon. In fact I could very clearly hear the guy with me watching & knowing what I was about to do laughing his ass off at my stupid mistake at the range. Did it add to my hearing damage of course it did, but I was completely able to continue to function and keep my wits about me.
Kids in the near future? I'd go ahead and invest in a suppressor.
turnburglar
10-31-14, 13:49
I really wish our founding fathers had the foresight too make some kind of amendments that protected our rights to keep and bare arms....
That way we could all rock suppressed sbrs.
This kind of nonsense has been discussed before. All things being equal, a good shoot is a good shoot. But let's not derail this anymore than it has already.
not trying to derail anything here, but to add to the discussion a little, if OP uses his evil modified AR in a HD situation, will an attorney pick apart his AR and accuse him of adding parts specifically designed to kill and cause extreme mayhem?!
ive heard of this happening with folks who put in aftermarket triggers on their carry handguns.
someone even told me its iegal to modify your carry gun for this reason.
we all know these concepts are ridiculous. in my mind, modifications only serve to increase accuracy and lesson the danger of stray rounds.
thoughts?
eta: oh yea. 10.5 all day long
I agree 200%.
I wonder how many of you have actually been awakened from REM sleep at 0300 by the alarm going off in your house, groggily tried to orient yourself to what the hell was going on, grabbed your HD light/firearm, and then did something about it.
I think a lot of people seriously overestimate their capacity for fine motor skills and higher level thought in that scenario. I have been in that situation twice (once for an alarm malf, but another time for someone trying to pry open a door), and based on those experiences I know for me, for certain, there's no way I'm going to have the clarity of thought to grab and don earpro in that situation.
In the case of Harold Fish in AZ which ended in his being found guilty and later overturned (the prosecutor used the fact that he was armed with a 10mm and hollowpoints in the trial. I doubt that single fact alone was significant but it was used. Fortunately things have changed here.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/trail-evidence/#.VFPge_nF_bM
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/
I dare defy plead beg implore anyone to show me an actual case(and I want the case number and a link to the story)where a otherwise good self defense shooting was deemed bad and the shooter found guilty of manslaughter or homicide due to the type weapon ammo or legal modifications made to it.
In the case of Harold Fish in AZ which ended in his being found guilty and later overturned (the prosecutor used the fact that he was armed with a 10mm and hollowpoints in the trial. I doubt that single fact alone was significant but it was used. Fortunately things have changed here.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/trail-evidence/#.VFPge_nF_bM
http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/
The biggest issue Harold Fish had was a very poor attorney.
The prosecution vilified Mr Fish for using the overly powerful 10mm round and hollow point ammunition...but the defense didn't even bring up the fact that a law enforcement agency right there in Arizona used 10mm and basically all law enforcement agencies (including the one using 10mm) use hollow points.
The judge also did not allow witnesses were going to testify to the deceased's history of overly aggressive and violent actions and behavior, including from LEOs.
Then there was Fish's warning shot.
Fortunately things have changed, but there were a lot of things going on in that case...a case in which Mr Fish shot a man he believed to be unarmed (there was a screwdriver in his pocket IIRC), in public, after a warning shot, without any physical contact between the two parties. A far cry from shooting a person who breaks into your house.
I am well aware of that. The fact is that the argument was still made (and I doubt it was the single most contributing factor).
The biggest issue Harold Fish had was a very poor attorney.
The prosecution vilified Mr Fish for using the overly powerful 10mm round and hollow point ammunition...but the defense didn't even bring up the fact that a law enforcement agency right there in Arizona used 10mm and basically all law enforcement agencies (including the one using 10mm) use hollow points.
The judge also did not allow witnesses were going to testify to the deceased's history of overly aggressive and violent actions and behavior, including from LEOs.
Then there was Fish's warning shot.
Fortunately things have changed, but there were a lot of things going on in that case...a case in which Mr Fish shot a man he believed to be unarmed (there was a screwdriver in his pocket IIRC), in public, after a warning shot, without any physical contact between the two parties. A far cry from shooting a person who breaks into your house.
I am well aware of that. The fact is that the argument was still made (and I doubt it was the single most contributing factor).
It was.
And using an AR style rifle opens you up to the same argument being made. This is why some people will only go by Uncle Joe's advice and use a double barrel shotgun, or at most, a pump.
I don't subscribe to that theory
haha sillies....
I have seen enough action movies to know that you can fire as many guns and kill as many people as possible inside a house without the need for "ear protection"
haha movies are fact
turnburglar
10-31-14, 17:08
I wonder how many of you have actually been awakened from REM sleep at 0300 by the alarm going off in your house, groggily tried to orient yourself to what the hell was going on, grabbed your HD light/firearm, and then did something about it.
I think a lot of people seriously overestimate their capacity for fine motor skills and higher level thought in that scenario. I have been in that situation twice (once for an alarm malf, but another time for someone trying to pry open a door), and based on those experiences I know for me, for certain, there's no way I'm going to have the clarity of thought to grab and don earpro in that situation.
that's projection. No offense directed towards you; but just because you have some difficulty with a specific task doesn't mean everyone will. The one attitude I would change about the gun community is: "when shtf, you won't even remember to be able to BLINK!". I will acknowledge that yes, some fine motor skills are lost during high stress situations, but it's not impossible to fix that with training. A perfect example of stress and fine motor skills: fighter pilots. Go talk to those guys about what they have to do in the cockpit. While upside down. And experiencing enough G's that make most men black out.
I will always preach training can fix just about anything.
HackerF15E
10-31-14, 18:13
that's projection. No offense directed towards you; but just because you have some difficulty with a specific task doesn't mean everyone will. The one attitude I would change about the gun community is: "when shtf, you won't even remember to be able to BLINK!". I will acknowledge that yes, some fine motor skills are lost during high stress situations, but it's not impossible to fix that with training. A perfect example of stress and fine motor skills: fighter pilots. Go talk to those guys about what they have to do in the cockpit. While upside down. And experiencing enough G's that make most men black out.
Pretty funny pairing of comments, especially since I am one of those fighter pilots you're talking about. Even one who has actually been shot at in combat by both AAA and guided SAMs.
I think you are missing something.
that's projection. No offense directed towards you; but just because you have some difficulty with a specific task doesn't mean everyone will. The one attitude I would change about the gun community is: "when shtf, you won't even remember to be able to BLINK!". I will acknowledge that yes, some fine motor skills are lost during high stress situations, but it's not impossible to fix that with training. A perfect example of stress and fine motor skills: fighter pilots. Go talk to those guys about what they have to do in the cockpit. While upside down. And experiencing enough G's that make most men black out.
I will always preach training can fix just about anything.
I have had the misfortune of wearing external HP in a shoot house and no plugs. Due to some cheekweld HP interference I would break the HP seal every now again. The concussion , pressure and energy of the blast is literally painful with just seal breakage. This is 14" M4's. I imagine the blast is really bad with a 10.3. If I didnt have a suppressor on both my HD weapons I would certainly have electronic HP on my headboard and the training to don it by muscle memory on waking.
I wonder how many of you have actually been awakened from REM sleep at 0300 by the alarm going off in your house, groggily tried to orient yourself to what the hell was going on, grabbed your HD light/firearm, and then did something about it.
I think a lot of people seriously overestimate their capacity for fine motor skills and higher level thought in that scenario. I have been in that situation twice (once for an alarm malf, but another time for someone trying to pry open a door), and based on those experiences I know for me, for certain, there's no way I'm going to have the clarity of thought to grab and don earpro in that situation.
Not quite, but I was an EMT for 8 years. Plenty of times where I'd be trying to drive an ambulance while still barely able to stay awake. One memorable occasion where I asked the dispatcher about 5 times where the heck I was driving to (a nursing home I'd been to dozens of times), to the point of having him give me the name, then the crossroads, then the address. Then he called me and gave me directions as I was driving.
So, yeah, it's possible to function, but you may be pretty screwy. I was actually thinking of this scenario last night as I was walking my dog, and I'm not sure I'd be able to do a mag change if I was in the mental state posted above.
Remind me to look into (very long) bayonets.
Not quite, but I was an EMT for 8 years. Plenty of times where I'd be trying to drive an ambulance while still barely able to stay awake. One memorable occasion where I asked the dispatcher about 5 times where the heck I was driving to (a nursing home I'd been to dozens of times), to the point of having him give me the name, then the crossroads, then the address. Then he called me and gave me directions as I was driving.
So, yeah, it's possible to function, but you may be pretty screwy. I was actually thinking of this scenario last night as I was walking my dog, and I'm not sure I'd be able to do a mag change if I was in the mental state posted above.
Remind me to look into (very long) bayonets.
It sounds like you are describing being severely sleep deprived, but we are talking about waking up from being asleep...not exactly the same thing?
Been through both, lots. Not the same thing at all
Here in Canada suppressors are verboten. Also since handguns and ARs are restricted, they must be locked up in a safe AND a trigger lock. The 870 only needs to be in the safe OR have a trigger lock on it, but must still be unloaded. Self defense, especially with a firearm, is looked down on in Canada. (Self-defense is NOT a reason to own a firearm in Canada, hunting and target shooting are the only legit reason. But then, some jihadist went and tried to shoot up our Parliament with a lever action rifle. If we can again get a Conservative majority in the next election, maybe some of these laws will be changed.
Though myself have a 10.5 AR which would be the best in this situation. Would love to put a suppressor on it. I also live in a condo so don't want bullets flying everywhere through walls into the next unit. Something else I have to worry about.
I work nights shift sometimes and during the day wear earplugs while trying to sleep. Break-in could happen then too, though again I doubt I would hear it much less wake up and get some sort of a firearm into action soon enough.
It's settled. Get an AK. Any AK. Then tape a maglight to it.
Kidding. The 14.5 will work, especially with a LW barrel and some minimal stuff like a light and dot, and retension (sling)-- in my mind it's a good idea to feel more free with just the one hand on the fire control holding the rifle in some competently prepared fashion in the event you need to use your other hand for that phone-call you should be making. 10.5 will afford four inches more between your muzzle and the apparent threat and random junk. We know this. It also is light weight unless you get some weird barrel. Indoors the loudness will not be fun out of either gun, but if your mind is in the right place to send off rounds you probably have a goal that will overcome that very uncomfortable side effect. I can just imagine how huge the flash out of a 10.5" is, though. I think there's a few non-NFA solutions to reducing that such as the FERFRANS brake shroud, or a flaming pig?? Someone here will know I reckon.
Legal battles can be nasty. I am not a lawyer, but, at the very least there's some justification in writing for there being no law about how to shoot your pistol regardless of an arm-brace. Honestly, defending yourself with an AR to begin with is where you're dealing with the generalizations some people fall prey to. Then again, maybe when the court says "pistol" and MAYBE shows a photograph, people will be very confused. Even at that there's a lot of grey. I mean, hey, you could go a whole other rout if you want to be careful with the court dynamics. You could get a uh.. double barrel shotgun and uhh.. fire two BLASTS. Uhh...
It sounds like you are describing being severely sleep deprived, but we are talking about waking up from being asleep...not exactly the same thing?
Good point. Those instances were after being woken at the substations by dispatch. We then go to the ambulance and start driving while getting the call details over the radio.
I use a 16" LW for HD, and it handles just fine inside. A shorter rifle wouldn't help me do any better at moving down the hall and posting up at the top of the stairway overlooking the front door, or making a stand in my bedroom if they're already upstairs by the time I get to the rifle. I keep ear pro on the nightstand, but they are ear plugs and they are not for shooting... just for when the old lady snores, haha. I don't do headphones with a rifle... I like to use a little-known high speed low drag technique called "cheek weld" that is not compatible with that gear.
I have shot indoors with no ear pro before. I didn't even notice any effect on my hearing either time due to adrenaline.
Worrying about stuff like calling 911 with one hand while shooting with the other, or legal outcomes, or hearing loss, or thinking about anything other than killing the other MF before he kills you, will get you killed in a fight. Win the fight first... only live people have the luxury of worrying about legal BS.
If it's time to drop the phone idea you freakin' drop the phone. Thumbs up. However, one handed stuff is important for many other reasons.
Indirectly related is this incident in ABQ.
http://krqe.com/2014/10/02/video-captures-apd-officer-suspect-fighting-for-assault-rifle/
Now, of course, we get that this situation is way different than a home defense situation. It does however provoke a lot of thought about the advantages of knowing how to handle things with one hand in the confines of a home with walls, doors and whatnot-- as well as a potentially deranged bad-guy who may do weird things. To another end, doors, door knobs, and you getting to your children who may require some guidance may be a thing.
Hadoken, as far as your choices go I would pick the setup you like/believe in more. If your 14.5 is your baby then you are going to be good and spend less time second-guessing your choice.
Be realistic with yourself as well. We all hear suggestions and have techniques about what we should do, but try to realize what you will do. Being barricaded, body-armored, ear-proed, and having your longest most lethal weapon may be what you should do, but I know for me I'm going to go look and the only thing I'm going to grab is a weapon.
I have a suppressed 16" AR with a light and supporting body-armor but I'm going to grab the suppressed pistol that sits close to my head and go lookin'. It's a smaller, easier to maneuver weapon and takes a hell of a lot less time to prep than the AR. Ideally I would have a suppressed, SBRed, 300blk with a light and have the basis covered but that's just not the reality I have right now.
Either one of your weapons will be loud inside your house so the only advantage may be a more maneuverable 10.5 setup but if you can move through your house with your 14.5 with as much ease then do so.
Everything in a tactical sense is a compromise of speed or safety. Every moment has it's own balance point.
Do you need to get there fast (SBR/pistol type) or do you need to get there safe (ear pro, body armor, etc.)?
Good luck with your choices.
Here in Canada suppressors are verboten. Also since handguns and ARs are restricted, they must be locked up in a safe AND a trigger lock. The 870 only needs to be in the safe OR have a trigger lock on it, but must still be unloaded. Self defense, especially with a firearm, is looked down on in Canada. (Self-defense is NOT a reason to own a firearm in Canada, hunting and target shooting are the only legit reason. But then, some jihadist went and tried to shoot up our Parliament with a lever action rifle. If we can again get a Conservative majority in the next election, maybe some of these laws will be changed.
Though myself have a 10.5 AR which would be the best in this situation. Would love to put a suppressor on it. I also live in a condo so don't want bullets flying everywhere through walls into the next unit. Something else I have to worry about.
I work nights shift sometimes and during the day wear earplugs while trying to sleep. Break-in could happen then too, though again I doubt I would hear it much less wake up and get some sort of a firearm into action soon enough.
I lived in Montreal, Quebec four and half years, and even had a PAL and joined a range. But it was such a PITA owning any handgun or AR because of the restriction status I just kept two AR's and two handguns at a friends house in Vermont. Canada was prime hunting ground, and it was a shame because owning any guns are are so restricted. However, I never really felt like I needed any gun because it was pretty safe to walk the streets even late at night, even in downtown Montreal. The bums were even pretty tame compared to where I live now. But Canada, as big as it is, is a country of 35 million, and we are a country of close to 400 million. I was just in Montreal and Ottawa during the two attacks in St Jean Sur Richealou and Ottawa, and you can tell It really shook the core of Canada.
Worrying about stuff like calling 911 with one hand while shooting with the other, or legal outcomes, or hearing loss, or thinking about anything other than killing the other MF before he kills you, will get you killed in a fight. Win the fight first... only live people have the luxury of worrying about legal BS.
+1
Stopping the threat is more important than having your cel with the other hand ready to call 911. Diffuse your situation first then call. If you are barricaded in a room, maybe its possible to call 911 while you are hunkered down. But moving around your home, in the dark, with a celphone in one hand, and a rifle/pistol equipped with a light on the other might be harder than most people think.
Worrying about stuff like calling 911 with one hand while shooting with the other, or legal outcomes, or hearing loss, or thinking about anything other than killing the other MF before he kills you, will get you killed in a fight. Win the fight first... only live people have the luxury of worrying about legal BS.
+1
Stopping the threat is more important than having your cel with the other hand ready to call 911. Diffuse your situation first then call. If you are barricaded in a room, maybe its possible to call 911 while you are hunkered down. But moving around your home, in the dark, with a celphone in one hand, and a rifle/pistol equipped with a light on the other might be harder than most people think.
Dealing with the dynamic of someone breaking into your house encompasses more than the parts than noticing the break-in, and only possibly having to fire shots. It will for sure include that phone call. The situation you're in while making that call preferably is with the bad guy(s) on the floor in surrender mode as you keep yourself ready for their funny-bussiness as you use your phone. Well, I mean, it's nice if they run away too I suppose. There are many other verities to that scenario as well, however. So that's why there is so much consideration for such a tight environment among other things. Depends on the house for sure, too.
If someone breaks in, my assumption will be that they mean me harm, and that my life is in danger. Any intruder will have to immediately do something to indicate to me that he is NOT a threat, or he is going to get treated like one. That is an assumption that the law allows for in my state, FWIW... well, unless the intruders are gov't employees. :rolleyes:
An important part of your plan for a break-in should be reacting as quickly as possible to the threat. A dude can be through your front door (or window) and on top of you a lot quicker than many people imagine. Grabbing the phone is definitely a secondary concern when I hear that crash at 0 dark thirty. Getting the gun in action and moving to the most defensible location possible is at the top of the list. If my old lady is with me, she knows to make the call. If its just me, it will almost certainly get made after the threat is ended. I don't want anything taking my concentration off of staying alive in that kind of situation.
I personally invested in a 10.5 SBR and a SureFire can. This being said there are a few things that I think you should take a look at. Have you fired your carbine in a low light setting or better yet invested in training to prepare you to fight with a firearm in low light? ~80% of gunfights occur at night per Mr. Hackathorn. I think the number 1 thing you should do is take your current setup and learn how to apply it in a low light setting. This affords you the experience of seeing what muzzle flash really looks like when things are dark, you can rate how disorienting you find this for yourself. You may also be able to see some of the choices your classmates have made ie. suppressors and/or SBRs, handguns etc. For me, I understand that firing a weapon in a confined space will be somewhere between uncomfortable and hearing loss and I am ok with that, when I decided to start a family I purchased a suppressor because I would prefer for them not to have to make that compromise.
All in all, if I were you at this exact time I would keep the 14.5 BCM as its set up and attend a class that helps you to identify problematic HD related things like muzzle flash in a low light setting. Next I would invest in a suppressor for the benefit of my family. Lastly I would decide if it is absolutely necessary to purchase another upper receiver and go with a shorter weapon. Out of all of these things (besides owning a rifle and a handgun) the best decision I made was to train with Ken Hackathorn who taught me how to use a firearm in low light. After which I removed a muzzle brake and used a flash hider, already had the suppressor on order and kept a lot of notes on the application of my rifle and handgun in the dark.
Bringing the "Sig brace" into the spotlight means nothing. I would love to meet Mr. Imawakeupanduseearpro because many people are going to be sleeping and probably be lucky to engage with a clear head.
The shorter weapon is the logical choice in a confined space which is why use them to begin with.
I did. Funny thing is I vaguely remember putting them on, or racking the shotgun, but my wife says she saw me do it as well as sling my shoulder bag on. Turned out to be a drunk neighbor trying his keys in my door at 3am. Dogs are the best panic alarm. Anyway, that was several years ago, and now I have a 12" PSA pistol build that sits by my nightstand instead of a shotgun.
I would love to meet Mr. Imawakeupanduseearpro because many people are going to be sleeping and probably be lucky to engage with a clear head.
I did. Funny thing is I vaguely remember putting them on, or racking the shotgun, but my wife says she saw me do it as well as sling my shoulder bag on. Turned out to be a drunk neighbor trying his keys in my door at 3am. Dogs are the best panic alarm. Anyway, that was several years ago, and now I have a 12" PSA pistol build that sits by my nightstand instead of a shotgun.
Ask and ye shall receive, I guess
+1 million for dogs
Kalash9305
11-08-14, 15:57
FWIW my 11.5 BCM pistol has replaced my 16" carbine for HD duty. I really don't see the point of a longer barrel in a HD role, with the exception of increased muzzle blast.
YMMV
^^
word
I have a BCM 12.5 "pistol" carbine and it is perfect for HD
although I do have an AKS-74 triangle sidefolder for backup ... just in case ;)
A sample of one is always significant I suppose.
Ask and ye shall receive, I guess
+1 million for dogs
A sample of one is always significant I suppose.
1 > 0
calviroman
11-09-14, 08:30
Given the choices you presented, I'd go with the 10.5". That said, once you start shopping complete uppers you'll find more and better choices in the 11.5" length. Also, please do NOT put a brake on that thing unless you'll be running a can.
Well, in a way I guess this post had a good timing, and in a way I guess it was irrelevant.
My house was broken into this week while my wife and I were at work. They took my current bedside G17 and some hunting shotguns that were too long to fit in the safe with my pistol shelves (very small safe..). Also took all of my emtpy gun boxes (thinking they might be full or hoping I wouldn't have the serial numbers to report?) and lots of ammo that wouldn't fit in my safe.
Just curious - those of you with bedside ARs, do you put them in the safe every day when you leave and take them out when you get home?
Just curious - those of you with bedside ARs, do you put them in the safe every day when you leave and take them out when you get home?
No, I lock my bedroom door.
Obviously it isn't going to stop someone determined to do thievery, but between that and my dog it ought to make them think twice about loitering. Although my Lab is more likely to lick them than bite or scare them off.
Sorry about your bad luck with the hunting shotguns, glad the pistol was only a gLoCk! :)
Well, in a way I guess this post had a good timing, and in a way I guess it was irrelevant.
My house was broken into this week while my wife and I were at work. They took my current bedside G17 and some hunting shotguns that were too long to fit in the safe with my pistol shelves (very small safe..). Also took all of my emtpy gun boxes (thinking they might be full or hoping I wouldn't have the serial numbers to report?) and lots of ammo that wouldn't fit in my safe.
Just curious - those of you with bedside ARs, do you put them in the safe every day when you leave and take them out when you get home?
I keep my ready-rifle in a quick access style safe. Before I had a quick access safe that fit a carbine I kept it out, leaning muzzle down in a corner.
IMO the most important things for preventing what happened to you are:
-Monitored alarm
-Dogs
-Big dogs
-Securely locked windows/doors (what the place came with probably doesn't count)
-Proper outdoor lighting
-Not letting people know what you have (firearms wise, need to know basis beyond having one or two, or whatever...that you have a safe...location of safe...etc)
The thing that struck me today about losing the glock is, I lost nearly as much money in the aftermarket sights, weapon mounted light and the holster it was in as I lost on the pistol!
They also took my range bag with about a dozen G17 mags... I've been saying I wouldn't buy a VP9 because I had so many Glock mags and holsters..well now I don't have that excuse..
My house sits back off of the road so once they realized no one was home they just had their way. Kicked/beat in a window went to unlock the door.
I've ordered the monitored alarm, though they were probably in and out in less than 10 minutes which is quicker than the LEO response time where I live (understandably).
I definitely agree with the last line of your post Warp, and its something I'm really careful about - along with making sure the wife doesn't post anything crazy on facebook. The fact that they left 1 bedroom untouched, but entered the 2nd bedroom which contained my safe makes me think it is someone who has been in my house. Though even the family that has been in my house has never seen my safe. They walked right past a Macbook Air in the room and tossed the closet with the safe.
The timing of the original post and now this reply probably makes it sound like I live in the worlds worst neighborhood and should have had an alarm already, but I've lived here 5 years incident free anywhere around me.
The thing that struck me today about losing the glock is, I lost nearly as much money in the aftermarket sights, weapon mounted light and the holster it was in as I lost on the pistol!
They also took my range bag with about a dozen G17 mags... I've been saying I wouldn't buy a VP9 because I had so many Glock mags and holsters..well now I don't have that excuse..
It sounds like they had a vehicle and ample time to go around finding what they wanted, and/or they knew what they were coming for.
My mossberg 500 is my bedside buddy, while my black guns are in the safe. If I was to have to start shooting in my house I wouldn't want a stray round to go through my wall and hit my neighbors house. Besides the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked is enough to make the majority of people run the other way. Also it's amazing what 00buckshot can do to someone at close range.
That's why we have a pair of trained poodles genetically altered so their bark perfectly replicates the sound of an Ithaca pump action shotgun being racked
That's why we have a pair of trained poodles genetically altered so their bark perfectly replicates the sound of an Ithaca pump action shotgun being racked
Can I reserve a pup from the next litter?
Till then, I keep my SBR close.
My mossberg 500 is my bedside buddy, while my black guns are in the safe. If I was to have to start shooting in my house I wouldn't want a stray round to go through my wall and hit my neighbors house. Besides the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked is enough to make the majority of people run the other way. Also it's amazing what 00buckshot can do to someone at close range.
Dude read this thread https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?48765-Shotgun-vs-AR15-for-home-defense and https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?1129-AR-15-vs-Shotgun-inside-a-residence&highlight=shotgun. They address some of the aspects of penetration through walls of a home (00 buck vs 5.56) and echoes the importance of using white light and low light training tactics.
The racking the shotgun bullshit is unbearable. Its like putting a "Bubba" tattoo on your forehead just below your beer helmet full of beast light and shooting up your old TV behind the house with a "tactical" Ruger 10/22 in an archangel stock ass naked with your combat boots on. Go to a class.
My mossberg 500 is my bedside buddy, while my black guns are in the safe. If I was to have to start shooting in my house I wouldn't want a stray round to go through my wall and hit my neighbors house. Besides the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked is enough to make the majority of people run the other way. Also it's amazing what 00buckshot can do to someone at close range.
Boy I realy hope that was sarcasm. Except for the last line, which I can attest to (as can many others on this forum).
The 13.7 mid-length never really took of partly because of the tax stamp requirement if you Didn't pin a pig on it..... But now if you do it on a pistol you are gtg
My mossberg 500 is my bedside buddy, while my black guns are in the safe. If I was to have to start shooting in my house I wouldn't want a stray round to go through my wall and hit my neighbors house. Besides the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked is enough to make the majority of people run the other way. Also it's amazing what 00buckshot can do to someone at close range.
I also really hope this was sarcasm.
That whole "sound of a shotgun" thing is crap. For one thing, I dare you put random people in the other room, then work the action of/chamber a round in multiple firearms. Ask them to tell you which one was the shotgun, which one was the rifle, which one was the handgun, etc. Then ask them if they care which one it is if the context is the homeowner loading a gun after they broke in.
Additionally, it is also amazing what a rifle round can do to somebody at close range, not to mention the advantages a 5.56 carbine generally offers over a pump shotgun (easier to operate, less recoil, faster follow up shots, probably shorter, probably lighter, doesn't penetrate walls any more than buckshot or pose any greater danger to others than a shotgun). Why do you suppose SWAT teams use rifles/carbines and generally only use shotguns for breaching?
In the event you were trolling, please don't.
My mossberg 500 is my bedside buddy, while my black guns are in the safe. If I was to have to start shooting in my house I wouldn't want a stray round to go through my wall and hit my neighbors house. Besides the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked is enough to make the majority of people run the other way. Also it's amazing what 00buckshot can do to someone at close range.
In the event you were trolling, please don't.
Couldn't have been trolling too much; he mentioned buck, not bird, shot...
Just curious - those of you with bedside ARs, do you put them in the safe every day when you leave and take them out when you get home?
Yes. It might sound like it's a pain in the ass but it's a routine I'm willing to put up with. No matter if it's just a quick drive to the supermarket and back, all firearms/magazines go into the safe. When I get home, the firearms/magazines for HD come out again. My safe is large enough to store all weapons and all associated magazines and HD ammo. Get a good safe and go from there.
Yes. It might sound like it's a pain in the ass but it's a routine I'm willing to put up with. No matter if it's just a quick drive to the supermarket and back, all firearms/magazines go into the safe. When I get home, the firearms/magazines for HD come out again. My safe is large enough to store all weapons and all associated magazines and HD ammo. Get a good safe and go from there.
Do you live alone/not live with any other responsible adults?
MountainRaven
11-16-14, 00:28
My understanding is that 10.5" (or 10.3") barrels were chosen by face-shooters because they throw a can on them and it keeps the OAL down to that of a 14.5" or 16" gun. So in deferring to the experts, unless you plan on getting a can, I would stick with the 14.5" gun.
If I were to look seriously at a non-NFA SBR-pistol for HD and I wasn't looking to get a can, I'd probably go 300 BLK... because it's a quieter (IME) cartridge and it's designed for the tube length. Maybe not noticeably quieter inside a house, but even a canned 5.56 indoors is loud. And canned SBR>canned carbine>unchained carbine>uncanned SBR in 300 BLK>uncanned SBR in 5.56 (IMHO). And if you're going to go short in a non-NFA SBR-pistol, I would go really short... like 8.5".
Of course, if we were talking about a car gun, I might choose a non-NFA SBR-pistol in 5.56mm. But more likely I'd (ideally) want something in an AK with a folding brace. Like that new IWI thing.
In the event you were trolling, please don't.
First off no trolling or sarcasm here, my shotgun is and will be my first choice if someone breaks in while I'm in bed. I also appreciate the links provided, but comparing a hostage situation to a HD situation is ridiculous. I agree if I was a LEO entering a drug house or a hostage situation I would want my AR at my side. We're all entitled to our opinion and all I did was express mine, sorry for doing so. Further more I'm no drug king pin or some rich dude with tons of cash just sitting around my house, so in the event someone does B&E my house in the middle of the night, it's probably just some lowlife POS not some trained assassin. I also doubt some lowlife is gonna stay and fight if he or she hears a gun rack of any sort. As far as the argument of travel distance between a round of buckshot and a 556 bullet, I'm pretty positive that 00 buck at 100 yards or so isn't going to do near the damage as a 556 round at the same distance. Which I'm only mentioning because of the event I had to start shooting and a stray round went through my exterior wall.
First off no trolling or sarcasm here, my shotgun is and will be my first choice if someone breaks in while I'm in bed. I also appreciate the links provided, but comparing a hostage situation to a HD situation is ridiculous. I agree if I was a LEO entering a drug house or a hostage situation I would want my AR at my side. We're all entitled to our opinion and all I did was express mine, sorry for doing so. Further more I'm no drug king pin or some rich dude with tons of cash just sitting around my house, so in the event someone does B&E my house in the middle of the night, it's probably just some lowlife POS not some trained assassin. I also doubt some lowlife is gonna stay and fight if he or she hears a gun rack of any sort. As far as the argument of travel distance between a round of buckshot and a 556 bullet, I'm pretty positive that 00 buck at 100 yards or so isn't going to do near the damage as a 556 round at the same distance. Which I'm only mentioning because of the event I had to start shooting and a stray round went through my exterior wall.
We arent concerned with the use of a shotgun for this purpose, as much as the "gun racking scares people" and "wont shoot through a wall" nonsence. If youre happy with a shotgun, great. Just dont believe the gun store BS that its the mythical Hammer Of Thor that they tell you.
This has nothing to do with what some fool at gun store says, it's just my opinion that's it. Sorry if everyone dont agree. I'm also not saying that a round of buck shot won't go through a wall. What I am saying is that my closest neighbor is about 100 yards away from my house, and in the event the round was to exit the house the chances of the round entering my neighbors house and killing some innocent person is a lot more likely with a 556 then a round of buckshot. Let me just ask this if you was to break into someone's house to steal a tv or a computer and you heard a gun rack what would you do? Get the hell out or stay and have a shoot out over a tv. I think most theives will tuck their tail and run. I'd also like to add that I'm not wanting to remove my guns from the safe and then lock them back up everytime I come and go from my house, so for that reason I keep my shotgun somewhat hidden in my room. This way if someone was to break into my hose while I wasn't home the only they're gonna get as far as my guns is an old mossberg 500 that's worth maybe $200 instead of my couple thousand dollar AR. Now if they come with six guys and some saws, pry bars and hammers they'll get it all, but they're gonna take a few hours and a whole lot of work to do it.
First off no trolling or sarcasm here, my shotgun is and will be my first choice if someone breaks in while I'm in bed. I also appreciate the links provided, but comparing a hostage situation to a HD situation is ridiculous. I agree if I was a LEO entering a drug house or a hostage situation I would want my AR at my side. We're all entitled to our opinion and all I did was express mine, sorry for doing so. Further more I'm no drug king pin or some rich dude with tons of cash just sitting around my house, so in the event someone does B&E my house in the middle of the night, it's probably just some lowlife POS not some trained assassin. I also doubt some lowlife is gonna stay and fight if he or she hears a gun rack of any sort. As far as the argument of travel distance between a round of buckshot and a 556 bullet, I'm pretty positive that 00 buck at 100 yards or so isn't going to do near the damage as a 556 round at the same distance. Which I'm only mentioning because of the event I had to start shooting and a stray round went through my exterior wall.
What leads you to believe that buckshot from your shotgun will not go through your wall and hit your neighbor's house, but another firearm choice (let's say a carbine in 5.56, or a handgun) would?
On what do you base your opinion that the sound of a pump action shotgun will make the majority of people run the other way? And is this a phenomenon that does not happen with other firearm choices, such as, say, a carbine/rifle?
BTW: Buckshot at 100 yards can, absolutely, kill.
Let me just ask this if you was to break into someone's house to steal a tv or a computer and you heard a gun rack what would you do?
Maybe start firing in the direction of the sound, even if it's through a wall, now that I know where my opponent is.
Maybe use the knowledge my opponent just handed to me to better position myself for the ambush.
Get the hell out or stay and have a shoot out over a tv. I think most theives will tuck their tail and run. I'd also like to add that I'm not wanting to remove my guns from the safe and then lock them back up everytime I come and go from my house, so for that reason I keep my shotgun somewhat hidden in my room. This way if someone was to break into my hose while I wasn't home the only they're gonna get as far as my guns is an old mossberg 500 that's worth maybe $200 instead of my couple thousand dollar AR. Now if they come with six guys and some saws, pry bars and hammers they'll get it all, but they're gonna take a few hours and a whole lot of work to do it.
You might be surprised how quickly and easily a burglar/thief can break into a residential security container. Like, 5-15 minutes with hand tools on most of them.
Please refrain from posting in this thread again. Thanks
This has nothing to do with what some fool at gun store says, it's just my opinion that's it. Sorry if everyone dont agree. I'm also not saying that a round of buck shot won't go through a wall. What I am saying is that my closest neighbor is about 100 yards away from my house, and in the event the round was to exit the house the chances of the round entering my neighbors house and killing some innocent person is a lot more likely with a 556 then a round of buckshot. Let me just ask this if you was to break into someone's house to steal a tv or a computer and you heard a gun rack what would you do? Get the hell out or stay and have a shoot out over a tv. I think most theives will tuck their tail and run. I'd also like to add that I'm not wanting to remove my guns from the safe and then lock them back up everytime I come and go from my house, so for that reason I keep my shotgun somewhat hidden in my room. This way if someone was to break into my hose while I wasn't home the only they're gonna get as far as my guns is an old mossberg 500 that's worth maybe $200 instead of my couple thousand dollar AR. Now if they come with six guys and some saws, pry bars and hammers they'll get it all, but they're gonna take a few hours and a whole lot of work to do it.
Heck, my HD AR is a 7.5" loaded with ballistic tip varmint rounds. But then again I also sleep next to my .45, 870, and a Mora. If I were to build an AR specifically for HD, I'd go 14.5" mid. They're short enough for easy handling and that way you're guaranteed proper tissue damage.
Could you define "proper tissue damage" and explain exactly what a 14.5" does to promote "proper tissue damage" that a 10.5" or 11.5" won't at home-invasion ranges? From my calculations, a 11.5" has about 970 FPE compared to 1070 FPE from a 14.5" at 5 yards. So by the same logic, a 14.5" only has "proper tissue damage" to about 50 yards. Typically, bullets, like one would use for self defense, have a specific velocity window which they expand/fragment as designed. Either/or will be in the proper range at home defense ranges.
I think what he is referring to is muzzle velocity which generally translates into more FPS which means more expansion and fragmentation. But, at the ranges we are discussing, you're correct that an 11.5" or 10.5" will be more than adequate.
Could you define "proper tissue damage" and explain exactly what a 14.5" does to promote "proper tissue damage" that a 10.5" or 11.5" won't at home-invasion ranges? From my calculations, a 11.5" has about 970 FPE compared to 1070 FPE from a 14.5" at 5 yards. So by the same logic, a 14.5" only has "proper tissue damage" to about 50 yards. Typically, bullets, like one would use for self defense, have a specific velocity window which they expand/fragment as designed. Either/or will be in the proper range at home defense ranges.
Could you define "proper tissue damage" and explain exactly what a 14.5" does to promote "proper tissue damage" that a 10.5" or 11.5" won't at home-invasion ranges? From my calculations, a 11.5" has about 970 FPE compared to 1070 FPE from a 14.5" at 5 yards. So by the same logic, a 14.5" only has "proper tissue damage" to about 50 yards. Typically, bullets, like one would use for self defense, have a specific velocity window which they expand/fragment as designed. Either/or will be in the proper range at home defense ranges.
The guy's HD AR is a 7.5" with varmint rounds.
I think that pretty much says it.
Hey guys, got some money to burn...
I respectfully suggest to Stop pondering over 3 to 4" of metal and burn that money on some CQB training.
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