View Full Version : Kyle Lamb Glock VS S&W M&P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orf_zlp3Rdk
C4
Voodoo_Man
10-30-14, 16:03
He found the M&P to be better for various reasons
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_783001_-1_757954_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
That link above has probably nothing to do with it, of course.
As for the issues he's said, I have never had any of those issues with any of my Glocks....hmmmm
Git you summmm !!
oh wait, wrong dude.
nj0ywatch1np0rn
10-30-14, 16:14
In the end, the better gun is up to the operator!
Don Robison
10-30-14, 16:17
As for the issues he's said, I have never had any of those issues with any of my Glocks....hmmmm
Same here, I like the M&P, but don't find it to be superior to any other quality pistol.
MountainRaven
10-30-14, 16:17
1- He has an issue with the trigger safety on the Glock. I don't. But I do have an issue with the trigger safety on the M&P.
2- Shootability: Glocks now come with beavertails. And grip angle is irrelevant to me.
3- Never had an issue with a weapon light on a Glock in 9mm. Never heard of any issues with weapon lights on Glocks in 9mm.
4- Glocks are available with 'USA' stamped on the slide. So if it has to be made in the US, you can still have a Glock. If you want something made NOT in the US, well... there isn't an option for the M&P there, now is there?
He found the M&P to be better for various reasons
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_783001_-1_757954_757781_757781_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
That link above has probably nothing to do with it, of course.
As for the issues he's said, I have never had any of those issues with any of my Glocks....hmmmm
All the issues he listed I have personally witnessed and can name professional former tier 1 instructors that will validate what he has said.
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
10-30-14, 16:32
All the issues he listed I have personally witnessed and can name professional former tier 1 instructors that will validate what he has said.
Can't find anything on 9mm Glocks having reliability issues with weapon lights. A Google search just brings up the 40s.
Unreconstructed
10-30-14, 17:12
"I'm Kyle Lamb with Viking Tactics. I get a lot of calls about the gun I shoot which is a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm, and this is the VTAC version"
"The question I get is why do I like the M&P over the Glock"
Bwahahaha!
Voodoo_Man
10-30-14, 17:23
Can't find anything on 9mm Glocks having reliability issues with weapon lights. A Google search just brings up the 40s.
As I stated above, never seen it, heard of it sure, but I attribute these types of things way more to operator error than anything else. I have owned 9mm glocks for more than a decade, nearly everyone I train with has 9mm glocks and none of them ever have had any of the issues that are brought up here. I have seen all sorts of guns have issues with reloaded ammo and $.05 trigger jobs, backroom modifications, etc, does that mean they have problems? I am extremely skeptical.
Food riots.. I love it lol
Can't find anything on 9mm Glocks having reliability issues with weapon lights. A Google search just brings up the 40s.
We had issues with Glock 22s with permanently attached weapon lights having reliability problems after 40,000-50,000 rounds. The Glock 23s did not exhibit the problems. Glock made several changes to the magazines based on our requests. Later on, after closer examination of the pistols, Glock told us the service life of a Glock .40 caliber was 50,000 rounds, not 100,000 rounds like the Glock 17s.
I haven't seen or heard of anyone with a PROPERLY ATTACHED light having an issue with a Glock 9mm. The frames are not made to tighten attachment screws until the frame is distorted, so I would imagine there are cases when a Glock 9mm or any other pistol with a polymer frame would have an issue when a light is IMPROPERLY ATTACHED.
I have two close friends who own S&W M&P .40 caliber pistols and they love them. Between the two of them, they own 5 M&P pistols.
To each their own.
Well, he did say you needed to be able to hit the broad side of a barn, which is not exactly an M&P's strong suit in the calibers mentioned and 9mm in particular.
I've owned several M&P 9mms and a couple of .40s. S&W has addressed most of the reliability issues with the M&P since its introduction but I certainly haven't heard reports of any M&P 9mm FS or 5" Pro that can actually be expected to hit the broad side of a barn out of the box. That killed the usability of the gun for me when I switched over to 9mm. If it wasn't for the fact you can't get the M&P 9mms to shoot accurately (fitted barrels aside, possibly), I'd probably still be shooting them.
I thought overall it was a fairly balanced review. I value <6" groups at 25 yards and smaller groups in general across all distances more highly than Mr. Lamb, apparently and that's fine.
BuzzinSATX
10-30-14, 17:52
All the issues he listed I have personally witnessed and can name professional former tier 1 instructors that will validate what he has said.
C4
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
There was a you tube video extracted from a Tac TV episode where LAV, Ken Hackathorn, and Dave Harrington stood around a table and talked about Their Glocks and Mods. They were all pretty much fans of the 9MMs (specifically G17/19), and both LAV and KH critiqued the .40 calls and mentioned that any light/ammo combo should be tested to ensure reliability due to frame twisting.
Then, KH spoke highly of the G20 (10MM).
KH and DH both spoke of trigger upgrades ("Guardian" from Glocktriggers.com was mentioned by DH) but that is an OEM trigger filed, buffed and polished.
Vid is no longer available on You tube but may be available on LAV's site.
My issue with the review was I find it hard to buy the M&P winning when Lamb said he replaces the barrels due to accuracy...seems like that's a pretty big detractor, doesn't it?
Can't say I have experience with the accuracy issue on the S&W, but he did...
Take Care,
Buzz
Gary1911A1
10-30-14, 17:56
Both good pistols. The problem I personally have with the M&P is the addition cost of a new barrel and Apex Parts. Not really necessary, but it makes the M&P so much easier to shoot.
1- He has an issue with the trigger safety on the Glock. I don't. But I do have an issue with the trigger safety on the M&P.
2- Shootability: Glocks now come with beavertails. And grip angle is irrelevant to me.
3- Never had an issue with a weapon light on a Glock in 9mm. Never heard of any issues with weapon lights on Glocks in 9mm.
4- Glocks are available with 'USA' stamped on the slide. So if it has to be made in the US, you can still have a Glock. If you want something made NOT in the US, well... there isn't an option for the M&P there, now is there?
I want to run 9x19mm anyway, so on paper that should be Glock. My favorite trigger arrangement for the M&P is the Apex FSS, which is as close to the SafeAction Trigger on the Glock one could possibly get. Weaponlights is again a nonissue for my application, as long as an X300 can live on it I'm happy.
For me it still came down to being able to run a thumb safety so I don't have mental lapses going back and forth between 1911's and 9mm Polymer DS handguns, but they're both such good pistols that I don't care. For me I'd want to throw $300 at least towards any stock version of the pistol before I really like it (DCAEK or FSS from Apex on the M&P now that the barrels are more or less sorted; the Glocks with smart grip reductions and beavertails are great, just needs slightly better sights like the RB1's).
I'd still argue that a G19 with a grip reduction, RB1 sights, and an X300 is the best default answer for 'what pistol', I just don't happen to have one because I'm personally hung up on the ability to run a thumb safety and have a gucci feeling 4.5# trigger from making the mistake of starting myself off with high end 1911's.
I always feel like Glock vs. M&P is just splitting hairs... both are such solid platforms.
In the end, for me anyhow, it boiled down to the ergos on the M&P being far more comfortable. And yes, I do own both a Gen3 G19/G23 in addition to my stable of M&Ps (FS9, 9C, Shield...)
Shoot with whatever works!
plouffedaddy
10-30-14, 18:32
Both platforms are excellent according to me but the one thing I really thought was odd was that he stated the 40S&W M&Ps were softer shooting than comparable Glocks and to me it's the exact opposite.
JackFanToM
10-30-14, 18:52
I have zero opinion regarding the Glocks, as I don't own one and have only shot them a few times...on M&P, well that is a horse of a different color. I owned one, and after a ton of extra expense, time and money I got it to perform as I had expected it to out of the box. I purchased an aftermarket barrel (went with the KKM drop in and had very good results), several aftermarket triggers (mine seemed to hate the timing with the Apex FSS, so I ended up with the DCAEK), replaced the sights (unfair to mention as a detraction since I do this with all my pistols), and a few other minor spring and internal mods to get acceptable functionality. In the end it was pretty damn nice, was accurate, felt good in the hand, was reliable, etc., but I was so disillusioned by the process that I came to the decision that I wanted to go with a different platform. I don't hate, loathe, or even dislike the M&P. It's a good platform, and I really wanted to like it as I invested quite a bit of money in holsters, mags, aftermarket parts, and I shot it ALOT. Unfortunately, I just was never able to get past my unhappiness at having to spend all that energy and money to get the platform to adjust to my desire and need...so I bought a PPQ M2 put a 10-8 rear and Dawson FO front sight on that puppy and never looked back.
PatrioticDisorder
10-30-14, 19:30
Good video although Kyle didn't touch on the .45 caliber models and also didn't discuss size differences. Lotta people like the G19 size pistol, M&P only really offers that in the M&P 45c, their 9mm/.40 compact is sort of a hybrid between the compact and subcompact Glock size.
For me, I like Glocks, I like M&Ps more and I like the VP9 the best. ;)
Both platforms are excellent according to me but the one thing I really thought was odd was that he stated the 40S&W M&Ps were softer shooting than comparable Glocks and to me it's the exact opposite.
Now this is my perception but I found the M&P 40 full size to be softer shooting than the Gen 3 G22. I've had other shooters tell me the same when they shot them back to back. Now Gen4 G22 to M&P 40 felt similar to me. Again, this is how recoil felt to me.
I understand that the NEW M&P barrels (yes, and as replacements) have tighter lockup and may obviate the need for aftermarket barrels.
Almost everything he said is completely irrelevant to me. Don't shoot fo-tay, I think the Glock angle is superior, no WML (not that it is an issue on 9x19), I don't ride the link, I don't have fat hands/fingers, and I don't really care where it's made (as long as it's a western nation and it's made in it's origin country).
M&P has a superior slide release and serrations. S&W seems more open to the market (CORE series).
For me the Glock vs M&P thing is easy; shoot both pick which one you like more. They're both essentially the same thing: striker fired double stack guns that hold 17 rounds.
I have a comment about something that no one appears to consider. It concerns safety. Now I know this is considered to be a moot factor here, as "just keep your finger off the trigger" is the rule. I personally consider the Glock and the M&P to be the most dangerous well made pistols available, and the S&W with no manual safety being the worst of the two. Since the S&W trigger safety is the entire lower half, it is much more easily snagged on something such as clothing or a holster. At least the Glock has the trigger safety somewhat protected by the outside of the trigger itself.
These guns are not even fool proof and most certainly not even close to damn fool proof. If there is an ND somewhere it seems to almost always be either of these guns. Very few take place with a double action pistol with the hammer down.
So if I were to make the choice between bad and worse, it would have to be the Glock just for reasons of safety. As far as I'm concerned, there is no practical difference between carrying a cocked and UNLOCKED 1911 and either of these guns. The Glock was designed to be a military handgun and, at the time, no military in the world would let its soldiers carry a pistol with a round in the chamber.
I understand that the NEW M&P barrels (yes, and as replacements) have tighter lockup and may obviate the need for aftermarket barrels.
Not in my experience.
Unreconstructed
10-30-14, 20:52
(Mod edit: Comment without content. As written, borders on a personal attack. Edit and elaborate, or let this one be. -ST911)
SpeedRacer
10-30-14, 21:03
I don't think Kyle is trying to convince anyone to do anything, just simply answering a question on why HE likes the M&P better. Hence him using the word "personally..." more than once. From personal experience I can tell you he respects both pistols equally, he just prefers the M&P. And he doesn't prefer the M&P because they make a VTAC version, they make a VTAC version because he prefers the M&P. ;)
I understand that the NEW M&P barrels (yes, and as replacements) have tighter lockup and may obviate the need for aftermarket barrels.
Anecdotal but I picked up a couple of the newer M&P9 barrels from G&R for my older pistols and it's a noticeable improvement at 25 yards.
I don't think Kyle is trying to convince anyone to do anything, just simply answering a question on why HE likes the M&P better. Hence him using the word "personally..." more than once. From personal experience I can tell you he respects both pistols equally, he just prefers the M&P. And he doesn't prefer the M&P because they make a VTAC version, they make a VTAC version because he prefers the M&P. ;)
kind of doubt that, almost certainly has to do with SW trying to gain market penetration and willing to try wild ideas like CORE and VTAC series. dont mean to slam kyle and havent watched the video yet.
SpeedRacer
10-30-14, 22:27
kind of doubt that, almost certainly has to do with SW trying to gain market penetration and willing to try wild ideas like CORE and VTAC series. dont mean to slam kyle and havent watched the video yet.
Kyle was shooting/carrying M&P's years before he collaborated with S&W on the "cat crap brown" VTAC guns. If he was simply shilling for S&W, then he did a horrible job in that video.
Kyle was shooting/carrying M&P's years before he collaborated with S&W on the "cat crap brown" VTAC guns. If he was simply shilling for S&W, then he did a horrible job in that video.
I think that was Kyle doing the closest to shilling he is capable of - which isn't much, just why he's convinced that for shooting 40 there is a distinct advantage.
Not in my experience.
What has your experience been with the new M&P barrels?
My experience with my newer m&p pistols (I don't have the brass in front of me for test fire date, but all were bought this year), is that when I do my part, the round goes where it's supposed to... When I'm sloppy, it's sloppy.
We had issues with Glock 22s with permanently attached weapon lights having reliability problems after 40,000-50,000 rounds. The Glock 23s did not exhibit the problems. Glock made several changes to the magazines based on our requests. Later on, after closer examination of the pistols, Glock told us the service life of a Glock .40 caliber was 50,000 rounds, not 100,000 rounds like the Glock 17s.
I haven't seen or heard of anyone with a PROPERLY ATTACHED light having an issue with a Glock 9mm. The frames are not made to tighten attachment screws until the frame is distorted, so I would imagine there are cases when a Glock 9mm or any other pistol with a polymer frame would have an issue when a light is IMPROPERLY ATTACHED.
I have two close friends who own S&W M&P .40 caliber pistols and they love them. Between the two of them, they own 5 M&P pistols.
To each their own.
Permanently attached?
Hate to beat a dead horse:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/texas-dps-ditches-sw-mp-handguns-reliability-issues-returns-sig-sauer/
I've seen S&W semi-autos come and go. The last one that I enjoyed was a 5906. I know I may get some flak for this one, but
I think the M&P is going to go the way of the Sigma. S&W should stick to wheelguns IMO.
DISCLAIMER: I don't like Glocks either.
A year ago, I was present when one of the most notable small arms experts was asked about the M&P, and his response was that S&W snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. It seems that the M&P could have and should have become more than it has.
Not a bad video, but most of it is personal taste...
I don't like the 40 (prefer the 9), and I don't have a problem with glock trigger squeeze, shootability, magazine or lights. I do like the glock tirgger reset, the accuracy is fine, and prefer the safety lever on the face of the trigger compared to the articulated M&P. I could not care less about where the guns is made, and I like the fact that you cant get glock mags and spare parts everywhere in the world, and cheap. So for me, the glock wins. YMMV.
Nothing at all against the M&P, and many other models/makers. All would be fine by me, and would not think twice about it if I had to carry them.
I don't think Kyle is trying to convince anyone to do anything, just simply answering a question on why HE likes the M&P better. Hence him using the word "personally..." more than once. From personal experience I can tell you he respects both pistols equally, he just prefers the M&P. And he doesn't prefer the M&P because they make a VTAC version, they make a VTAC version because he prefers the M&P. ;)
That's exactly how interpreted the video. Some people have a hard time with anyone criticizing their choice of handgun or rifle. This is simply HIS opinion and I respect it. I think the M&P is a very good pistol; I just prefer the Glock, mainly because it's the industry standard. I have owned a few M&P's and shot them as well as I do my Glocks.
I own both handguns and none of them are in stock condition. Actually the M&P I have is the 45 Midsize and it has the DCAEK trigger in it. All else is stock. The Glocks I own are the 17 and the 19 and I prefer the 19 much more so than the 17. Fits my hand much better and just feels right. Both Glocks have Wilson barrels in them and they are both very accurate. More so than with the stock barrels. My M&P 45 is more accurate than both the Glocks. I've stayed away from the M&P 9's because of the accuracy problems. As far as triggers are concerned I like the M&P trigger more than the Glock trigger. I don't care about reset and don't notice it when I'm running most drills. The M&P has a WML and the Glocks do not. I carry the G19 most of the time and then the M&P. The G17 has been relegated to a range/nightstand gun. Whats interesting to me is that my wife who doesn't shoot that much loves the M&P 45 and shoots it very well. Overall all 3 guns get close to equal range/class time. The G19 and the M&P45 Mid are carried the most. My personal preference is the G19 just because of the ergo's and fit for me. Accuracy wise the M&P 45 beats my Glocks hands down. Will I ever purchase a M&P 9? Maybe so but at this time there is no need. The 9mm bases are covered with my Glocks.
What has your experience been with the new M&P barrels?
I sent a circa. 2009 series 9mm FS back to S&W to have the barrel replaced that was a 6" gun @ 25 yards on its best day, with its best load. Most loads were 6-8" and it also shot ~6-8" high as well. I had heard S&W had made some barrel changes so I wanted to see if they helped correct the accuracy issue.
My gun came back from Smith still a 6" gun with the new barrel (they wouldn't send me a new barrel, I had to send the gun in). I couldn't tell any difference in lockup in the new barrel and it printed the same, which is at least 2X as large a group as any other service gun I own will do @ 25 yards. Groups are noticeably larger with an M&P 9mm across all distances, but up until ~50 ft. it's not as noticeable.
Can't find anything on 9mm Glocks having reliability issues with weapon lights. A Google search just brings up the 40s.
With the 9mm's it is much more rare and is probably more load specific. If you read the instruction manual that comes with the SF X300, they state that it might cause problems with Glock's.
C4
There was a you tube video extracted from a Tac TV episode where LAV, Ken Hackathorn, and Dave Harrington stood around a table and talked about Their Glocks and Mods. They were all pretty much fans of the 9MMs (specifically G17/19), and both LAV and KH critiqued the .40 calls and mentioned that any light/ammo combo should be tested to ensure reliability due to frame twisting.
Then, KH spoke highly of the G20 (10MM).
KH and DH both spoke of trigger upgrades ("Guardian" from Glocktriggers.com was mentioned by DH) but that is an OEM trigger filed, buffed and polished.
Vid is no longer available on You tube but may be available on LAV's site.
My issue with the review was I find it hard to buy the M&P winning when Lamb said he replaces the barrels due to accuracy...seems like that's a pretty big detractor, doesn't it?
Can't say I have experience with the accuracy issue on the S&W, but he did...
Take Care,
Buzz
I don't know if you heard all the video or not, but he clearly states that the accuracy issues with NEW M&P has improved greatly. This is true. On the flip side, I am constantly seeing NEW and old (GEN 2) Glock's with very loose fitting barrels. They shoot 6-8 inches high at 25yds or less.
C4
Both good pistols. The problem I personally have with the M&P is the addition cost of a new barrel and Apex Parts. Not really necessary, but it makes the M&P so much easier to shoot.
No need to replace the barrel on the newer M&P's IMHO. While I am a fan of Apex parts, simply add the Apex U. striker block totally changes the gun. Same deal as changing out the slide catch, mag release and connector that the majority of people do.
C4
I don't think Kyle is trying to convince anyone to do anything, just simply answering a question on why HE likes the M&P better. Hence him using the word "personally..." more than once. From personal experience I can tell you he respects both pistols equally, he just prefers the M&P. And he doesn't prefer the M&P because they make a VTAC version, they make a VTAC version because he prefers the M&P. ;)
Very true. It is funny to watch people either get mad (because he doesn't like their fav pistol), state outdated info about S&W or that none of the issue Kyle has PERSONALLY witnessed is true.
For me, my main CCW gun is a G3 19 RTF2. In fact, I only own 2 M&P's, but own somewhere close to 10 Glock's. ;)
C4
Hate to beat a dead horse:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/foghorn/texas-dps-ditches-sw-mp-handguns-reliability-issues-returns-sig-sauer/
I've seen S&W semi-autos come and go. The last one that I enjoyed was a 5906. I know I may get some flak for this one, but
I think the M&P is going to go the way of the Sigma. S&W should stick to wheelguns IMO.
DISCLAIMER: I don't like Glocks either.
You know this isn't actually true right? DPS actually continued on with the S&W, but are doing a Re-evaulation and have brought in the new HK VP9. Sig is totally out of the picture (FYI).
C4
You know this isn't actually true right? DPS actually continued on with the S&W, but are doing aRe-evaulation and have brought in the new HK VP9. Sig is totally of the picture (FYI).
C4
Actually I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know. But the fact of the matter is that they still switched. :)
Actually I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know. But the fact of the matter is that they still switched. :)
Yes, but switched from SIG to M&P. So SIG is totally out of the picture. Then the VP9 was released and they want to take a look at it.
Yes, but switched from SIG to M&P. So SIG is totally out of the picture. Then the VP9 was released and they want to take a look at it.
That makes sense since they wanted to go lighter weight which is why they adopted the M&P in the first place. Now with the VP9 out, it meets or beats their criteria that the M&P couldn't meet at a similar price point.
I just wanted to add that I may be biased because I'm experiencing an all metal gun renaissance at the moment and have stopped looking at polymer pistols. I've been seeing older polymer parts and frames failing now and that worries me from an investment standpoint. I don't want to buy a gun that will become brittle in 30 years.
I don't know if you heard all the video or not, but he clearly states that the accuracy issues with NEW M&P has improved greatly. This is true.
C4
I doubt that Kyle's or anyone else's word will be sufficient to overcome a mistrust that S&W has earned in this regard.
SpeedRacer
10-31-14, 09:52
I doubt that Kyle's or anyone else's word will be sufficient to overcome a mistrust that S&W has earned in this regard.
If Glock can overcome the Great Brass In Yo Face Era (they did) then S&W can overcome the accuracy issues (they will).
I doubt that Kyle's or anyone else's word will be sufficient to overcome a mistrust that S&W has earned in this regard.
Ya, it is hard to overcome certain things. Some people think all Glock's kick brass in your face and that all M&P are not accurate. We handle tons of Glock's and M&P's here. What we have been noticing is that the Glock barrels fitting is getting worse and the S&W M&P's is getting better. Will that trend stay this way? Don't know, but people would be best advised to look at each firearm individually and if the gun meets their reqs, go with it.
C4
Why can't this man PROMOTE the handgun that has his name on it? It's a free country, buy it or don't buy it. He is not "shilling" for the maker. Look up the proper definition of the word. He is promoting his product. Many people do.
BTW, I have never met Mr. Lamb, don't know the man personally, not paid by him and certainly not shilling for him.
I like them both. I am move invested in the Glock but I have an M&P9 Pro (non-CORE) that I like a lot; I like it more than my G17. I like my Glocks enough that I’m not going to be selling them and have to reinvest into the M&P line, but if I could start all over I think I’d be all over the M&P. But, thing is, the “regular” M&P trigger is pretty bad. The Pro I got is a lot better, so I’d have to go Pro across the board, but I think it’s the better of the two from the factory.
Why can't this man PROMOTE the handgun that has his name on it? It's a free country, buy it or don't buy it. He is not "shilling" for the maker. Look up the proper definition of the word. He is promoting his product. Many people do.
BTW, I have never met Mr. Lamb, don't know the man personally, not paid by him and certainly not shilling for him.
He can and should. My favorite saying is "If you cannot promote yourself who can??"
C4
There are few malfunctions more serious than a failure to extract. This is the failure of the extractor to pull the case out of the chamber, not a failure to eject, which is a failure to throw the case out of the gun and to the ground. This can be caused by a number of factors: a higher than normal pressure round, a softer than normal cartridge case, a roughly finished chamber, or fouling in the chamber. Improper timing of the extraction-ejection-feed cycle is another, but most guns have that worked out by now or they would not sell.
The Smith & Wesson extractor was designed by someone who appears to be almost totally ignorant of basic geometry. It has a pivot pin, as opposed to the Glock, which is located outside of the edge of the cartridge case rim. If it had been placed closer to the firing pin so that it was substantially inside the hook, it would have been excellent. The M1 rifle, the M14, and even the M16 use this principle for reliable extraction. So if the S&W extractor actually has to extract, it may not. This is because the hook that catches the case rim will move towards the muzzle very slightly, change the angle, and release the case if the empty case resists extraction. If the pivot pin were substantially inside the rim it could not do this as it would have to move backwards when pulled forwards. An outside the case rim pivot pin gives an extractor that will readily "jump" over the rim if the case is stuck, an inside the edge of the rim pivot will have to distort the rim in order to jump over it.
In my opinion, this is another reason to consider the Glock better than the S&W M&P, as one wants the most reliability possible in a self defense weapon.
There are few malfunctions more serious than a failure to extract. This is the failure of the extractor to pull the case out of the chamber, not a failure to eject, which is a failure to throw the case out of the gun and to the ground. This can be caused by a number of factors: a higher than normal pressure round, a softer than normal cartridge case, a roughly finished chamber, or fouling in the chamber. Improper timing of the extraction-ejection-feed cycle is another, but most guns have that worked out by now or they would not sell.
The Smith & Wesson extractor was designed by someone who appears to be almost totally ignorant of basic geometry. It has a pivot pin, as opposed to the Glock, which is located outside of the edge of the cartridge case rim. If it had been placed closer to the firing pin so that it was substantially inside the hook, it would have been excellent. The M1 rifle, the M14, and even the M16 use this principle for reliable extraction. So if the S&W extractor actually has to extract, it may not. This is because the hook that catches the case rim will move towards the muzzle very slightly, change the angle, and release the case if the empty case resists extraction. If the pivot pin were substantially inside the rim it could not do this as it would have to move backwards when pulled forwards. An outside the case rim pivot pin gives an extractor that will readily "jump" over the rim if the case pulls on it, an inside the edge of the rim pivot will have to distort the rim in order to jump over it.
In my opinion, this is another reason to consider the Glock better than the S&W M&P, as one wants the most reliability possible in a self defense weapon.
Interestingly enough, I rarely see problems with M&P failing to extract. If they do, it probably with Winchester ammo and was with the older extractor design. For Glock's, many of the various malfunctions (to include brass to the face) were because the extractor channel was full of debris. M&P's don't have this issue as the gun to does not funnel that stuff towards that area.
C4
With the 9mm's it is much more rare and is probably more load specific. If you read the instruction manual that comes with the SF X300, they state that it might cause problems with Glock's.
C4
Does the manual specify which model Glock or it is just a general Glock statement? We had problems with some Gen 3 G22's but nothing with G17's or any Gen 4 guns at all so far. I don't think it'd be fair to fault the G17 for problems that no one can actually document as having occurred. Given the M&P 9's reputation for horrendous accuracy it's going to take a bit of a track record before annectdotal statements about improving accuracy can be believed on a large scale. Conversely the Gen 4 G17 really has impressed me in the accuracy department. Several other prominent industry experts have also noted this recently. Having said that if the M&P really has solved the 9mm accuracy issues that have plagued it for close to a decade, I have no doubt it will become apparent in time and it will again move toward the top of my list. For the record, if I went .40 there's no question I'd go M&P. from my experience M&P's are the way to go in .40 and Glock's are the way to go in 9mm. Both good guns in specific areas with drawbacks in others. DocGKR has written pretty extensively on this with some pretty good documentation I'd highly recommend checking out his observations to anyone who's interested.
Issue a Glock or S&W polymer pistol to a beat cop, and he'll likely be ok with it if the pistol is malfunction free. Of course, he'll like his weapon even better if he can shoot good qualification scores with it. Somewhere in the equation there must be trained and competent armorers who will inspect new weapons before they're issued and then keep them running throughout their service life. The result is that these issue weapons did what they were designed to do. They could be issued in large number, function reliably, and be maintained with minimum effort. Thrown into the mix is the consumer who expects more. He may be a cop, or he may be merely an armchair warrior, a mall ninja, a regular guy who likes to shoot, or an advanced and highly knowledgeable shooter. Delete the mall ninja, and I fall somewhere in between. Out of the box my 9mm Glocks have done what they were designed to do. Using my G19 as an example, I could spend a lot of money and have a tuned, customized pistol. It may or may not pass a department armorer's inspection for issue. I don't care because it'll serve my purpose, which may not be what Gaston had in mind when he designed the original back in the day.
With all the complaints that everyone has with the M&P and the Glock, I'm half considering giving the Beretta 92 series with a D spring, and VZ grips another go. It doesn't seem to exhibit any of the problems everyone complains about with the modern polymer guns.
I just wanted to add that I may be biased because I'm experiencing an all metal gun renaissance at the moment and have stopped looking at polymer pistols. I've been seeing older polymer parts and frames failing now and that worries me from an investment standpoint. I don't want to buy a gun that will become brittle in 30 years.
More information on this would be extremely interesting; especially with regards to frames. Thanks!
Permanently attached?
The lights were left on the pistols while carried in duty holsters. A lion's share of the rounds fired through the Glock 22s were with the flashlight attached and that exacerbated the problem.
Some lights slid onto the dust cover and snapped into place. They caused fewer problems. Some lights had cross screws that were tightened after the light was slid onto the dust cover. They cause quite a few problems for people who tightened them really tight.
Does the manual specify which model Glock or it is just a general Glock statement? We had problems with some Gen 3 G22's but nothing with G17's or any Gen 4 guns at all so far. I don't think it'd be fair to fault the G17 for problems that no one can actually document as having occurred. Given the M&P 9's reputation for horrendous accuracy it's going to take a bit of a track record before annectdotal statements about improving accuracy can be believed on a large scale. Conversely the Gen 4 G17 really has impressed me in the accuracy department. Several other prominent industry experts have also noted this recently. Having said that if the M&P really has solved the 9mm accuracy issues that have plagued it for close to a decade, I have no doubt it will become apparent in time and it will again move toward the top of my list. For the record, if I went .40 there's no question I'd go M&P. from my experience M&P's are the way to go in .40 and Glock's are the way to go in 9mm. Both good guns in specific areas with drawbacks in others. DocGKR has written pretty extensively on this with some pretty good documentation I'd highly recommend checking out his observations to anyone who's interested.
It has been a long time since I read it so I don't remember. I am pretty sure it just said Glock (no calibers listed). With that said, I wouldn't worry about a 9mm Glock not running, but always check your 9mm Glock with a metal light with your carry ammo (especially 147gr).
C4
With all the complaints that everyone has with the M&P and the Glock, I'm half considering giving the Beretta 92 series with a D spring, and VZ grips another go. It doesn't seem to exhibit any of the problems everyone complains about with the modern polymer guns.
I just saw the new WC Beretta 92G Tactical. It is SWEET and might be convinced to carry it for awhile. ;)
C4
Both good pistols. The problem I personally have with the M&P is the addition cost of a new barrel and Apex Parts. Not really necessary, but it makes the M&P so much easier to shoot.
My M&P .40 was MOPP (Minute of Pie Plate) at 25 yards. The trigger was bad even compared to stock Glocks. The slide stop was the stiffest I've ever felt. I had the trigger worked and that made a big difference. The slide stop was addressed at the same time, but the "accuracy" was crap. I popped for a Storm Lake barrel, but it was never reliable enough to depend on. At that point, I scrapped the attempt to switch and went back to Glocks. As a matter of fact, I scrapped .40 altogether in the process.
So my experience mirrors yours. FWIW, I ran that gun for an entire year (about 4K rounds), so it wasn't a half-hearted attempt. That's what supports my preference for Glocks. KL's experience is beneficial, yet anecdotal just like mine and boils down to preference. To each their own! :)
I just saw the new WC Beretta 92G Tactical. It is SWEET and might be convinced to carry it for awhile. ;)
C4
Is it public yet? I'd love to see it.
WickedWillis
10-31-14, 13:11
I carry a Glock 19 Gen 4 most of the time, and a S&W Shield the rest of the time. I would trust my life with either. I have not handled the newer M&P series full size handguns, but I hated the trigger on the old ones. I also extremely dislike the M&P compacts, they feel incredibly awkward to me, and I personally would never feel comfortable with one. I'm not a professional though. The guy should be able to speak on what he prefers and not get criticized for it, even if S&W has a version of their pistol he endorses.
I just saw the new WC Beretta 92G Tactical. It is SWEET and might be convinced to carry it for awhile. ;)
C4
Pictures or you suck ;)
Is it public yet? I'd love to see it.
No, but HOT DAMN is it nice! Ordered a bunch of them!
C4
Pictures or you suck ;)
I already "suck" so no pics for you!
C4
I just saw the new WC Beretta 92G Tactical. It is SWEET and might be convinced to carry it for awhile. ;)
C4
Sugar is sweet, we know how it taste. But tell us the details on this WC B 92G T.
Sugar is sweet, we know how it taste. But tell us the details on this WC B 92G T.
A lot like Sugar! You gotta remember that my saved "searches" on GunBroker are comprised of only three guns. Beretta's, HP's and HK P7/8/10/13's. So a Beretta 92S that has been dragged behind a gravel truck is "sweet" to me!
This is the finest Beretta 92 ever made with all the right upgrades that takes it past anything ever made by them (thanks to Mr. Wilson).
C4
No, but HOT DAMN is it nice! Ordered a bunch of them!
C4
Any ballpark figures on price?
Any ballpark figures on price?
$1200 range.
C4
No, but HOT DAMN is it nice! Ordered a bunch of them!
C4
Are those for you to sell or personal use? My wallet is burning a hole in my pants (or, maybe that's the Mexican I had for lunch).
Are those for you to sell or personal use? My wallet is burning a hole in my pants (or, maybe that's the Mexican I had for lunch).
Yes to both.
C4
Singlestack Wonder
10-31-14, 16:17
I don't know if you heard all the video or not, but he clearly states that the accuracy issues with NEW M&P has improved greatly. This is true. On the flip side, I am constantly seeing NEW and old (GEN 2) Glock's with very loose fitting barrels. They shoot 6-8 inches high at 25yds or less.
C4
Must be a shooter issue. All of my Glocks regardless of gen3 or gen 4 or round count consistently allow me to put all shots in an IDPA target head at 25 yards all day long (off hand, standing, even with the 26 and 36). Aftermarket barrels for Glocks are a fix without a problem. There's a reason Federal and Speer use Glock barrels in their bullet testing facilities. Aftermarket barrels do make gungamers feel good however...
brushy bill
10-31-14, 16:41
I just wanted to add that I may be biased because I'm experiencing an all metal gun renaissance at the moment and have stopped looking at polymer pistols. I've been seeing older polymer parts and frames failing now and that worries me from an investment standpoint. I don't want to buy a gun that will become brittle in 30 years.
Shao, what frames/parts have you seen failing and in what way? Any word on causation? More details the better. I'm sure others would be interested, but if you prefer, please PM. Thanks.
Must be a shooter issue. All of my Glocks regardless of gen3 or gen 4 or round count consistently allow me to put all shots in an IDPA target head at 25 yards all day long (off hand, standing, even with the 26 and 36). Aftermarket barrels for Glocks are a fix without a problem. There's a reason Federal and Speer use Glock barrels in their bullet testing facilities. Aftermarket barrels do make gungamers feel good however...
Actually, the benefit for gun games is twofold on the Glock. First, I've seen appreciable accuracy gains on three Glocks fitted with Bar-Sto barrels. Second, the tighter lockup removes play between the slide and frame. Watch the back of a stock barrel equipped Glock slide as you dry fire. You can see the back of the slide being pulled down towards the frame as you pull through the break. With a snugly fitted aftermarket barrel, this play is eliminated and makes the feel of the trigger more crisp on the break. A single mod that improves both the trigger and mechanical accuracy is a win-win.
None of my social purpose Glocks have aftermarket barrels though. :)
If Glock can overcome the Great Brass In Yo Face Era (they did) then S&W can overcome the accuracy issues (they will).
BTF is/was exactly that, in your face. Hard to miss it, and impossible to ignore. Accuracy deficiency is another game, a lot easier to ignore, as they did for years.
Conversely, it is a lot easier to confirm/convince people that BTF is gone than that accuracy has been fixed.
I just saw the new WC Beretta 92G Tactical. It is SWEET and might be convinced to carry it for awhile. ;)
C4
I've been carrying full sized Bs for about a year. It ain't easy.
buckshot1220
10-31-14, 19:23
Is anyone else wondering where they can get a Gen 5 Glock mag?!?!?!:jester: Skip to 1:39
In all seriousness, as a Glock shooter I felt that was pretty accurate. 9mm Glocks and .40cal M&Ps make sense for some.
For those saying this is a shill video for the S&W/VTAC collaboration, I doubt it. I bet some people at S&W are pretty peeved he just told everyone the M&P9 isn't worth a damn without an aftermarket barrel. Pretty sure that would've gotten cut if S&W had a say.
Singlestack Wonder
10-31-14, 21:17
Actually, the benefit for gun games is twofold on the Glock. First, I've seen appreciable accuracy gains on three Glocks fitted with Bar-Sto barrels. Second, the tighter lockup removes play between the slide and frame. Watch the back of a stock barrel equipped Glock slide as you dry fire. You can see the back of the slide being pulled down towards the frame as you pull through the break. With a snugly fitted aftermarket barrel, this play is eliminated and makes the feel of the trigger more crisp on the break. A single mod that improves both the trigger and mechanical accuracy is a win-win.
None of my social purpose Glocks have aftermarket barrels though. :)
Back when I was shooting gungames I also used the stock barrels as there was no proven advantage to the aftermarket barrels other than creating a new market for 1911 parts makers to enter into. If one was shooting bullseye with lead bullets a hand fitted aftermarket barrel may improve bench accuracy incrementally. For shooting an El Presidente in IDPA in 5.5 seconds or less with no points down, no difference. YMMV
MountainRaven
11-01-14, 01:13
With the 9mm's it is much more rare and is probably more load specific. If you read the instruction manual that comes with the SF X300, they state that it might cause problems with Glock's.
I don't recall reading that, but fair enough. I'll see if I can find a .pdf on SureFire's website on the morrow.
Very true. It is funny to watch people either get mad (because he doesn't like their fav pistol), state outdated info about S&W or that none of the issue Kyle has PERSONALLY witnessed is true.
For me, my main CCW gun is a G3 19 RTF2. In fact, I only own 2 M&P's, but own somewhere close to 10 Glock's. ;)
It seems to me that stating out-of-date info is not exactly unfair given that Mister Lamb is apparently unaware of the beavertails on the Gen4s or the GripForce adaptors. ;)
He can and should. My favorite saying is "If you cannot promote yourself who can??"
I prefer, "Live in such a way that if anyone were to speak badly of you, no one would believe it."
No, but HOT DAMN is it nice! Ordered a bunch of them!
42 flavors of interested. ETA?
Isnt the M&P accuracy issue only applicable to 9mm? My .40 is very accurate for a SSP. Other than that, pretty accurate - "pick one."
If you buy a current production of either gun, you will probably be fine. I wanted a glock during the BHO rush and settled for an M&P40. Im happy. Would have been happy with the glock19 too. If reliability/accuracy isn't a fluke gun, you wont be limited by the tool.
I do find the M&P cheaper/more accurate. No need to buy GFA, its cheaper off the bat, and no need to buy an aftermarket bbl. ymmv.
PatrioticDisorder
11-01-14, 11:19
Isnt the M&P accuracy issue only applicable to 9mm? My .40 is very accurate for a SSP. Other than that, pretty accurate - "pick one."
If you buy a current production of either gun, you will probably be fine. I wanted a glock during the BHO rush and settled for an M&P40. Im happy. Would have been happy with the glock19 too. If reliability/accuracy isn't a fluke gun, you wont be limited by the tool.
I do find the M&P cheaper/more accurate. No need to buy GFA, its cheaper off the bat, and no need to buy an aftermarket bbl. ymmv.
Interestingly enough, the only M&P I own I've found to be not so accurate past 15 yards is my full size .40. That same gun with a storm lakes conversion barrel shoots 9mm very accurate. My .40 compact and .40 shield have no accuracy issues. I suspect the earlier .40 & .357 sig (who the hell even shoots .357sig anymore?) M&Ps suffered from accuracy issues as well it just wasn't as widely reported.
Isnt the M&P accuracy issue only applicable to 9mm? My .40 is very accurate for a SSP. Other than that, pretty accurate - "pick one."
If you buy a current production of either gun, you will probably be fine. I wanted a glock during the BHO rush and settled for an M&P40. Im happy. Would have been happy with the glock19 too. If reliability/accuracy isn't a fluke gun, you wont be limited by the tool.
I do find the M&P cheaper/more accurate. No need to buy GFA, its cheaper off the bat, and no need to buy an aftermarket bbl. ymmv.
My issued M&P .40 is very accurate.
Interestingly enough, the only M&P I own I've found to be not so accurate past 15 yards is my full size .40. That same gun with a storm lakes conversion barrel shoots 9mm very accurate. My .40 compact and .40 shield have no accuracy issues. I suspect the earlier .40 & .357 sig (who the hell even shoots .357sig anymore?) M&Ps suffered from accuracy issues as well it just wasn't as widely reported.
My issued M&P .40 is very accurate.
IMHO - this shows (like brass to the face) that these issues are not necessarily widespread, merely widely reported.
IMHO - this shows (like brass to the face) that these issues are not necessarily widespread, merely widely reported.
That's a big leap to make. The accuracy issues with M&P 9mm FS and larger pistols are well documented by a large number of reputable shooters. 40 S&W and 45 ACP is another matter.
If you're the kind of guy that wins the lottery, go ahead and play that game.
I've owned five M&Ps that are all sold now and Smith won't be getting any more of my money for autoloaders. None of my 9mms could shoot sub 6" 10-round groups at 25 yards with two different loads that consistently produces 1.5" groups in other guns. I really, really wanted to make the M&P work. It could have been a great gun but in the end I value being able to hit where I'm aiming.
Digital_Damage
11-01-14, 19:56
hummm... A guy paid to endorse S&W saying that an S&W weapon is better? Not sure how to look at this objectively.
Calhoun123
11-01-14, 19:57
I have a 2014 M&P 9mm that I initially thought was one of those which shoots 8 inch patterns. After a few trips to the range getting used to the gun and shooting from a rest to check mechanical accuracy, I found my M&P shot more accurately than the Gen 4 Glock that it replaced. I was shooting at 25 yards with cheap WWB 115 FMJ and Federal 115 FMJ and obtaining 2 inch groups. I still can't shoot the M&P as well as I shoot a Glock, but I'm improving. The problem, for me, seems to be the hinged trigger and higher trigger pull weight (APEX may be in my future). The trigger was also VERY gritty at first, but it completely smoothed out with use. Anyway, for this sample of 1, I have no complaints about accuracy with a 2014 M&P9.
hummm... A guy paid to endorse S&W saying that an S&W weapon is better? Not sure how to look at this objectively.
It's called advertisement.
For example, George Clooney is a spokesman for Omega watches, Cindy Crawford for Rolex, Jerry Miculek for S&W, Peyton Manning selling pizza, etc. everytime you watch TV some actor or athlete is selling something.
I have a 2014 M&P 9mm that I initially thought was one of those which shoots 8 inch patterns. After a few trips to the range getting used to the gun and shooting from a rest to check mechanical accuracy, I found my M&P shot more accurately than the Gen 4 Glock that it replaced. I was shooting at 25 yards with cheap WWB 115 FMJ and Federal 115 FMJ and obtaining 2 inch groups. I still can't shoot the M&P as well as I shoot a Glock, but I'm improving. The problem, for me, seems to be the hinged trigger and higher trigger pull weight (APEX may be in my future). The trigger was also VERY gritty at first, but it completely smoothed out with use. Anyway, for this sample of 1, I have no complaints about accuracy with a 2014 M&P9.
My personal opinion is that the smaller grip frame allows most of us to get more of our trigger finger onto the trigger than other guns. This makes it less forgiving when I don't do my part of really isolating my trigger muscles and leads to sloppy shots. Like you, I've found that good live and dry fire practice drills have helped immensely.
I fully admit that I currently shoot my glocks better than my m&p's, but I have shot thousands more rounds from my glocks. That said, by the end of my last range session with my m&p which consisted of task focused drills based on tension set and trigger finger, my groups were indistinguishable from my typical glock groupings.
This thread led me into pulling out my m&p for some dry fire drills which then reminded me of an issue that I find much more pronounced with my m&p's than any other gun I've shot. Right at the point of sear break, I notice a small bounce of my front sight. This goes away with practice and focus (for me), but it's going to take thousands more dry and live evolutions for me to completely eliminate it.
Digital_Damage
11-01-14, 21:36
It's called advertisement.
For example, George Clooney is a spokesman for Omega watches, Cindy Crawford for Rolex, Jerry Miculek for S&W, Peyton Manning selling pizza, etc. everytime you watch TV some actor or athlete is selling something.
Except those advertisements carry a disclaimer on the bottom of the screen.
Alpha Sierra
11-01-14, 22:10
"I'm Kyle Lamb with Viking Tactics. I get a lot of calls about the gun I shoot which is a Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm, and this is the VTAC version"
"The question I get is why do I like the M&P over the Glock"
Bwahahaha!
Ride for the brand
MountainRaven
11-01-14, 22:46
It's called advertisement.
For example, George Clooney is a spokesman for Omega watches, Cindy Crawford for Rolex, Jerry Miculek for S&W, Peyton Manning selling pizza, etc. everytime you watch TV some actor or athlete is selling something.
You got my brain thinking.
If George Clooney is advertising for Omega, he's usually not going to mention Rolex (or Seiko or any other competitor brand). He's going to discuss the merits of the watch and how the vibe of the brand and their watches fit his personality.
When Ken Hackathorn did the video for his WC pistol, he didn't say that it was better than Brand X - whether Brand X is Nighthawk or Glock or H&K or whoever. He discussed the merits of the weapon, why he chose the features he chose, and why it's Wilson building it.
When Chris Costa did the video for his Nighthawk pistol, he didn't say that it was better than Brand X - whether Brand X is Wilson or Glock or whoever. He also didn't do it when he got his ATEi pistol. I'm pretty sure he didn't mention any of the competitors when LaRue came out with his fancy brown PredatAR. All on the merits of the weapon with his company's name on them, nothing about how much better they are than everything else.
Hilton Yam hasn't even done a video on any of his Springfield Custom 10-8 guns or the ATEi 10-8 M&Ps. And he's posted many, many articles about why he chose the components he has and what makes them a better option than something else.
Jason Falla hasn't done anything of the sort for the RB1 Salient. Except to mention the merits of the SAI Glock he's running.
In other words, I don't think that what has gotten people riled up is that Kyle Lamb has his own pistol and wants to toot his own horn a little bit. But that rather than tooting his own horn, he's thrashing a competitor's pistol. In essence, he's said that the M&P is kinda crap but that the Glock sucks more. And then he did it with some half-truths and out-dated information. It's like when Yam decided to come out and say that he thinks the 1911 is an antique - that made a lot of people unhappy with him - experience and training be damned.
hlpressley
11-01-14, 23:46
Interesting read.
I personally prefer the M&P but don't necessarily think it is superior than Glock. I just don't shoot Glock well.
It would have been a useful video if it had been made 3 or 4 years ago. However, Glock's BTF issue and the M&P's accuracy problems in the 9mm platform were fixed over a year ago. That means you can choose whatever 9mm floats your boat. As for the 40SW guns, Glock improved with the Gen 4 but the M&P still carries a small advantage in terms of overall realibilty and durability. However, this advantage will probably not be noticed unless you are a high volume shooter or do most of your work with a fixed WML.
Interestingly enough, the only M&P I own I've found to be not so accurate past 15 yards is my full size .40. That same gun with a storm lakes conversion barrel shoots 9mm very accurate. My .40 compact and .40 shield have no accuracy issues. I suspect the earlier .40 & .357 sig (who the hell even shoots .357sig anymore?) M&Ps suffered from accuracy issues as well it just wasn't as widely reported.
I have a 2012 40 and have gotten a couple 3" and a few more 4" groups out of it offhand with tula. You may be right, but I have a good one. I always recommend new shooters:
1. get 9mm
2. get a glock 19 or M&P
3. if you you get .40/45 get M&P.
As for the video, I don't think some of the posters here even watched it. He states that both are great guns, goes through the flaws both guns experienced and that for HIM the M&P fits, but for a lot of shooters, the glock is really good as well, and he even buys Glock, but its his #2 apparently. I saw it more as a "get a Glock or SW M&P, but I personally prefer M&P" video than anything else.
It would have been a useful video if it had been made 3 or 4 years ago. However, Glock's BTF issue and the M&P's accuracy problems in the 9mm platform were fixed over a year ago. That means you can choose whatever 9mm floats your boat. As for the 40SW guns, Glock improved with the Gen 4 but the M&P still carries a small advantage in terms of overall reliability and durability. However, this advantage will probably not be noticed unless you are a high volume shooter or do most of your work with a fixed WML.
I find for 40, the M&P has a perfect size. Many recommend not to go with a g23 due to size/recoil. The M&P is smaller than the G22, and is still easily controlled. For duty stuff, its probably a non-issue, but I can carry M&Pfs concealed fine, but any bigger causes printing.
....... the M&P's accuracy problems in the 9mm platform were fixed over a year ago.
I haven't seen any reports of the M&P accuracy in 9mm being fixed. Can you point to a source for this information?
PatrioticDisorder
11-02-14, 06:59
I haven't seen any reports of the M&P accuracy in 9mm being fixed. Can you point to a source for this information?
It's pretty well documented, barrels were changed significantly including twist rate. Grant and others have discussed it ad nauseum.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3719
Nightstalker865
11-02-14, 07:02
I haven't seen any reports of the M&P accuracy in 9mm being fixed. Can you point to a source for this information?
It has been well documented that the M&P9's got a faster twist barrel in 2013. They also seem to have better slide to barrel fitment. These upgrades are on top of the new sear, trigger bar, and slide lock. Combined these upgrades have made a vast improvement in the gun over the last couple years.
It has been well documented that the M&P9's got a faster twist barrel in 2013. They also seem to have better slide to barrel fitment. These upgrades are on top of the new sear, trigger bar, and slide lock. Combined these upgrades have made a vast improvement in the gun over the last couple years.
Search on 209301 on this forum and you will find Grant's discussion of the changes that were made in late 2012 as I recall. 209301 is the Model # of the updated M&P9fs...
<TED>
He did say that the grock was good for killing zombies and food riot.
Digital_Damage
11-02-14, 08:14
I have a 2012 40 and have gotten a couple 3" and a few more 4" groups out of it offhand with tula. You may be right, but I have a good one. I always recommend new shooters:
1. get 9mm
2. get a glock 19 or M&P
3. if you you get .40/45 get M&P.
As for the video, I don't think some of the posters here even watched it. He states that both are great guns, goes through the flaws both guns experienced and that for HIM the M&P fits, but for a lot of shooters, the glock is really good as well, and he even buys Glock, but its his #2 apparently. I saw it more as a "get a Glock or SW M&P, but I personally prefer M&P" video than anything else.
I find for 40, the M&P has a perfect size. Many recommend not to go with a g23 due to size/recoil. The M&P is smaller than the G22, and is still easily controlled. For duty stuff, its probably a non-issue, but I can carry M&Pfs concealed fine, but any bigger causes printing.
Complete opposite in my experience.
I find these threads humorous to a degree, Mercedes or BMW, NY or LA, Ford or Chevy, Glock or M&P, basically the same.
If company X gives me a free widget, I will advertise X's widget over Y's whether it's better or worse, same with any corporate spokesman be it gun, car, watch, whatever.
It's pretty well documented, barrels were changed significantly including twist rate. Grant and others have discussed it ad nauseum.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3719
I've had one of the new "one dimple" barrels in an older gun. Did nothing to improve accuracy.
Barrels alone aren't the only issue contributing to M&P 9mm accuracy issues based on other information I've read, so pardon me if I don't consider it "fixed" until I see more proof than "this looks promising". I've been down that route before with S&W.
I've had one of the new "one dimple" barrels in an older gun. Did nothing to improve accuracy.
Barrels alone aren't the only issue contributing to M&P 9mm accuracy issues based on other information I've read, so pardon me if I don't consider it "fixed" until I see more proof than "this looks promising". I've been down that route before with S&W.
So you've had 1 upgrade out of the numerous listed, didn't notice a difference, and continue to to ignore industry experts and amateurs alike who say "it's better"?
SpeedRacer
11-02-14, 09:29
In other words, I don't think that what has gotten people riled up is that Kyle Lamb has his own pistol and wants to toot his own horn a little bit. But that rather than tooting his own horn, he's thrashing a competitor's pistol. In essence, he's said that the M&P is kinda crap but that the Glock sucks more. And then he did it with some half-truths and out-dated information. It's like when Yam decided to come out and say that he thinks the 1911 is an antique - that made a lot of people unhappy with him - experience and training be damned.
Again, the video wasn't an advertisement. It was him directly answering a specific question he's received which involved comparing the Glock and M&P. Should he not answer questions out of fear of upsetting overly sensitive brand zealots? And I'd hardly call it a "thrashing". He even begins the video talking about the Glocks he owns and shoots.
So you've had 1 upgrade out of the numerous listed, didn't notice a difference, and continue to to ignore industry experts and amateurs alike who say "it's better"?
I haven't seen any reports that the accuracy is better from any "experts", but perhaps I'm just ill informed. If so, great, you win the internets.
If it is better, great, but anyone that's actually posted pictures online of "new" M&P 9mm FS+ 10-round groups that I've found in searching is still in the 6"+ range, qualified by, "blah, blah, it's me not the gun", which while it may be honest and accurate doesn't prove anything. That's still horrible accuracy, but consistent. Hell, Kyle Lamb just said in the referenced video he re-barrels his 9mm M&Ps because they suck, that should be a clue.
However, to your other point, the barrel is the only one of the "upgrades" listed that would actually impact accuracy, other than if S&W changed how they manufacture and treat the slides. The rest are about improving the trigger feel (sear, trigger bar, slide stop etc.).
I haven't seen any reports that the accuracy is better from any "experts", but perhaps I'm just ill informed. If so, great, you win the internets.
If it is better, great, but anyone that's actually posted pictures online of "new" M&P 9mm FS+ 10-round groups that I've found in searching is still in the 6"+ range, qualified by, "blah, blah, it's me not the gun", which while it may be honest and accurate doesn't prove anything. That's still horrible accuracy, but consistent. Hell, Kyle Lamb just said in the referenced video he re-barrels his 9mm M&Ps because they suck, that should be a clue.
However, to your other point, the barrel is the only one of the "upgrades" listed that would actually impact accuracy, other than if S&W changed how they manufacture and treat the slides. The rest are about improving the trigger feel (sear, trigger bar, slide stop etc.).
I win the internets?
Both of your posts towards me have been biting and condescending. Is there a reason you can't communicate your thoughts to me without acting like you're somehow better than me?
A pistol should be functional and reliable right out of the box. It should have good ergonomics and reasonable combat accuracy at 50 yards. If I am going to have to replace barrels, trigger groups, etc., to make it suit my needs, I am going to buy a different pistol.
If Mr. Lamb likes the M&P better than the Glock, that's great. I did not get the impression he was Glock bashing in his video, just stating his preference.
A pistol should be functional and reliable right out of the box. It should have good ergonomics and reasonable combat accuracy at 50 yards. If I am going to have to replace barrels, trigger groups, etc., to make it suit my needs, I am going to buy a different pistol.
Which is why some of us happily are using the PPQ and P99AS, no drama, just works.
And every block shooter friend who shot my PPQ commented on how easy it was to shoot. One of them promptly went out and bought one, now has two.
If I had to tinker with anything as much as some do I'd find another horse to ride.
Digital_Damage
11-02-14, 10:24
A pistol should be functional and reliable right out of the box. It should have good ergonomics and reasonable combat accuracy at 50 yards. If I am going to have to replace barrels, trigger groups, etc., to make it suit my needs, I am going to buy a different pistol.
If Mr. Lamb likes the M&P better than the Glock, that's great. I did not get the impression he was Glock bashing in his video, just stating his preference.
The issue is the reasoning behind his preference, trying to do it through addition via subtraction. Most of the knocks are subjective and some of it out right untrue.
Digital_Damage
11-02-14, 10:25
Which is why some of us happily are using the PPQ and P99AS, no drama, just works.
And every block shooter friend who shot my PPQ commented on how easy it was to shoot. One of them promptly went out and bought one, now has two.
If I had to tinker with anything as much as some do I'd find another horse to ride.
I do want to try a PPQ, I do have some gripes about Glock wide span in the webbing. Do you know if it is slightly narrower?
I find these threads humorous to a degree, Mercedes or BMW, NY or LA, Ford or Chevy, Glock or M&P, basically the same.
If company X gives me a free widget, I will advertise X's widget over Y's whether it's better or worse, same with any corporate spokesman be it gun, car, watch, whatever.
This. Add to that the human proclivity to convince yourself of the merits of something you like anyway.
Gary1911A1
11-02-14, 14:50
My first M&P 9MM shot OK. Shouldn't of sold it. My second was terrible until I got one of the two dimple barrels and that along reduced my grops down to between three to four inches at 25 yards. I wish it would do better than that. As it is now I can shoot it about as well as my Glock 9MMs' so I'm keeping it.
Socom Elite
11-03-14, 01:14
Both platforms are excellent according to me but the one thing I really thought was odd was that he stated the 40S&W M&Ps were softer shooting than comparable Glocks and to me it's the exact opposite.
I agree. You can grip much higher on the glock. High enough where I can almost get hit with the slide. Glock mo betta IMO
I haven't seen any reports of the M&P accuracy in 9mm being fixed. Can you point to a source for this information?
Me. They have improved their barrel fit, changed the twist rate and are doing a much better crown job now. With that said, are they going to be as good of a fit as an HK? No. We do occasionally see an overly loose fitting barrel, but this is a massed produced pistol you are you going to get that from time to time.
C4
I've had one of the new "one dimple" barrels in an older gun. Did nothing to improve accuracy.
Barrels alone aren't the only issue contributing to M&P 9mm accuracy issues based on other information I've read, so pardon me if I don't consider it "fixed" until I see more proof than "this looks promising". I've been down that route before with S&W.
There are two parts in the equation. Slide size and barrel hood size. Your slide could be out of spec and so no drop in barrel is going to improve anything.
C4
BTF is/was exactly that, in your face. Hard to miss it, and impossible to ignore. Accuracy deficiency is another game, a lot easier to ignore, as they did for years.
Conversely, it is a lot easier to confirm/convince people that BTF is gone than that accuracy has been fixed.
I've been carrying full sized Bs for about a year. It ain't easy.
When VA became as shall issue state, I was still in the NAV so all I knew was the 92. That was my carry gun. Yes, it is difficult, but DAMN if you ain't sexy. ;)
C4
I don't recall reading that, but fair enough. I'll see if I can find a .pdf on SureFire's website on the morrow.
It seems to me that stating out-of-date info is not exactly unfair given that Mister Lamb is apparently unaware of the beavertails on the Gen4s or the GripForce adaptors. ;)
I prefer, "Live in such a way that if anyone were to speak badly of you, no one would believe it."
42 flavors of interested. ETA?
The G4 does not have as good of a beaver tail as the M&P. On top of that, we see the various backstraps break with zealous use. So his info was/is up to date I think.
C4
Me. They have improved their barrel fit, changed the twist rate and are doing a much better crown job now. With that said, are they going to be as good of a fit as an HK? No. We do occasionally see an overly loose fitting barrel, but this is a massed produced pistol you are you going to get that from time to time.
Does anyone know approximately which production dates have these changes implemented?
That said, it's a bit moot for those of us in CA at this point, short of SSE until the end of the year... the M&P series are all falling off our infamous CA Roster of "safe" handguns. I might try to acquire a M&P9 Pro CORE before the end of the year though, if possible.
Does anyone know approximately which production dates have these changes implemented?
That said, it's a bit moot for those of us in CA at this point, short of SSE until the end of the year... the M&P series are all falling off our infamous CA Roster of "safe" handguns. I might try to acquire a M&P9 Pro CORE before the end of the year though, if possible.
Rolling changes, so no hard date. early/mid 2013 I remember seeing people talk about it
urbantactic
11-08-14, 12:06
I always find Kyle's videos interesting. I have never trained with him, but a few of my friends have, and have nothing but great things to say about his approach to training.
I personally shoot an M&P for the shoot-ability criteria that Kyle describes. Being able to have as high of a purchase that I can on the gun alone makes me prefer the M&P.
I've never purchased a replacement barrel, but one of these days I may have one fitted from Grant.
I just saw the new WC Beretta 92G Tactical. It is SWEET and might be convinced to carry it for awhile. ;)
C4
This one?
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/handgun-beretta-brigadier-tactical.asp#.VJtSBP8NEA
I wouldn't mind one of those...
Glock vs M&P: for me I started out with a 1911, moved to a PX4, then moved M&Ps. Shot those for a few years and then moved to Glocks. I read somewhere (I think you posted this Grant) that a guy should always try to get a Blue Label / LE model when possible as those are the weapons the "A Team" at the factory works on. Since I am not Mil/LE I joined the GSSF and moved to Glocks. I live, hunt, recreate in Alaska and appreciate the G20, also added a G19 as I like the size.
If I could get a 10mm M&P, if they made a G19 size M&P, and if they introduced a GSSF type program I might switch back.. ;) I do alternate between a G19 and a Shield for daily carry. Prefer the G19, but sometimes the Shield's size makes it the choice of the day.
Keep in mind that Lamb, LAV, etc... are now professional marketers and have a financial interest in the products they use and promote. I have a lot of respect for each of them but I'm also a realist and understand that they have bills to pay just like you and me.
Lamb seemed somewhat partial but keep in mind that his former "work guns" were G22's and G23's in DE RTF. Those are still the work guns for his former employer. That says a lot just because they can use whatever they want. Kind of a reason also why LAV teamed up with Lipsey for his G17/G19.
In the end, take it all with a grain of salt. Look for a KL Glock review in an upcoming gun rag. Just sayin'
brickboy240
12-31-14, 15:21
It is VERY hard to take this guy's opinions seriously when he is holding an M&P that S&W BUILT FOR HIM! It is almost like tuning in to an Obama speech after a mass shooting - don't you know what is going to be said pertaining to guns? LOL
The G22 unreliable? Hmm....really? My 1993 made 2nd gen G22 has never missed a beat and I stopped round-counting on that pistol maybe 10 years ago. Ok there was the light issue but I think that was solved...right?
The bottom line is this guy is probably paid by S&W to make statements like that and if the M&P was soo much better....wouldn't we have seen a larger drop off in Glock usage? Would major instructors and former operators still be using Glocks if the M&P was heads above it? I would tend to think not.
I don't see a mass migration AWAY from all things Glock...even after the BTF issues a few years ago. No sir!
So that vid reads like a video version of an article in G&A magazine (the magazine with expensive full page ads placed by S&W).
Take it for what it is...
MountainRaven
12-31-14, 15:30
Uh... Kyle writes for Guns & Ammo.
Just saying.
Failure2Stop
12-31-14, 17:10
It's a pretty solid bet that guys with background and integrity work with companies whose products they believe in.
They might not think that EVERY product put out by that particular company is a homerun, or applicable to their use, but the ones that they are tying their mane to, they are tying their integrity to as well. These kind of men do not simply sell those things to a company that offers them a few products or paycheck.
PatrioticDisorder
12-31-14, 20:03
Uh... Kyle writes for Guns & Ammo.
Just saying.
Lamb didn't exactly give the M&P a free pass, he discussed 9mm accuracy issues (and putting custom barrels in his personal M&Ps). He prefers the M&P over the Glock and so do many others, they're both good guns IMHO.
OK, it seems that the gun to compare to is the Glock?
OK, it seems that the gun to compare to is the Glock?
Given Glocks place in recent history it is seemingly the touch point for a great handgun design, however some of the newer designs may advance and become touchmarks in their own right. The PPQ and the VP9 have taken their place with great ergonomics and very nice triggers. It will be interesting to see what the future holds.
MountainRaven
01-01-15, 00:14
Lamb didn't exactly give the M&P a free pass, he discussed 9mm accuracy issues (and putting custom barrels in his personal M&Ps). He prefers the M&P over the Glock and so do many others, they're both good guns IMHO.
I'm not saying anything negative about Kyle Lamb. Like I said, I was just saying. Pointing out a fact, making an observation.
It's worth bearing in mind, when someone complains that his video reminds them of a YouTube version of Guns & Ammo magazine, that he both writes articles for G&A and regularly appears on their TV show.
Given Glocks place in recent history it is seemingly the touch point for a great handgun design, however some of the newer designs may advance and become touchmarks in their own right. The PPQ and the VP9 have taken their place with great ergonomics and very nice triggers. It will be interesting to see what the future holds.
The Glock is a historic, game changing handgun. The PPQ and VP9 and M&P are great guns, but offer only modest (and largely inconsequential) improvements at best. Comparing any of these pistols to each other is little different than comparing a third-gen Smith & Wesson double-action auto with a Beretta 92 or a Colt Model of 1873 Single-Action Army revolver with a Remington Model of 1875 Single-Action Army revolver.
attrapereves
01-03-15, 00:59
I guess I'm a Glock fanboy, but every semi-auto handgun I've tried never measures up to a Glock. There are always issues with (just to name a few) the trigger, accuracy issues, expensive magazines, or hard to find parts. Glocks are not perfect, but they do everything I need them to do.
I tinkered with the M&P series two times. Both times they never stuck around for more than a few months. I could never seem to get used to the trigger and after hundreds of rounds, I could never get a decent grouping. I guess an APEX trigger would have made things better, but I didn't feel like dumping $100+ into them. That being said, I didn't find the M&P trigger to be as terrible as people claim it to be.
I personally don't see much of an improvement from one to the other, I do see one needing quite a few after market parts to get it up to par though.
Until something truly better comes along, it will be mostly a glock & AR world in the USA and the majority of the western world. Not only they are great designs (not perfect, but better than most) but the popularity/availability and widespread use makes them sort of "quantity has a quality all of its own" :)
PatrioticDisorder
01-06-15, 11:48
Until something truly better comes along, it will be mostly a glock & AR world in the USA and the majority of the western world. Not only they are great designs (not perfect, but better than most) but the popularity/availability and widespread use makes them sort of "quantity has a quality all of its own" :)
Though I like Glock & M&Ps, I see the HK VP series blowing by both eventually. No brass to the face or accuracy issues, simply a better quality gun hands down at a similar price point making it a no brainer for new shooters not already heavily invested in older platforms.
Though I like Glock & M&Ps, I see the HK VP series blowing by both eventually. No brass to the face or accuracy issues, simply a better quality gun hands down at a similar price point making it a no brainer for new shooters not already heavily invested in older platforms.
...nearly all of the world's LE/mil is already heavily invested in the glock. I don't think the HK is going to make a large dent in these markets, and not so much in the USA as well. The S&W M&P is IMO inferior to the glock overall, as MUCH less popular. This HK VP9 has double the number of parts compared to a Gen III G17 (and more than ever much older designs), and a higher bore. I have not tried one yet, but I highly doubt it is going to be an earth shattering experience.
Though I like Glock & M&Ps, I see the HK VP series blowing by both eventually. No brass to the face or accuracy issues, simply a better quality gun hands down at a similar price point making it a no brainer for new shooters not already heavily invested in older platforms.
While the VP9 is better it still suffers from price issues (think mags) and is still overall 50% more then LE Glock or M&P prices. It also doesn't have the commonality between models (G17,G19,G26....and oh you want 10mm well here's the G20..and so on and they're all basically the same gun functionally and in the same frame sizes a G17 down to a G26 can use the same holster and mags). Now that brass to the face is behind us I just don't think many agencies will feel they are worth more then 50% more and then there's the whole magazine issue (capacity and price). Then there's the whole armorer issue, is there a more simple gun then Glock? Certainly not the VP9.
If I were an individual buyer the VP9 would tempt me, for agency wide adoption though you run into the whole "the enemy of good enough" thing.
I guess only time will tell though.
Though I like Glock & M&Ps, I see the HK VP series blowing by both eventually. No brass to the face or accuracy issues, simply a better quality gun hands down at a similar price point making it a no brainer for new shooters not already heavily invested in older platforms.
I think the PPQ surpasses the budget minded and entry level HK vp9 as the best out of the box gun striker fired gun. I have shot all 4 guns and the PPQ out of the box in my opinion is the best of all 4, again out of the box.
My observations:
I have issues with buying a 439 dollar M&P and having to drop a 130 trigger kit in it and 200 dollar barrel to be cary/duty ready. Sights are ok and only need to be changed to meet end user preference but aren't required.
The glock is the gold standard but "new production of both the gen 3-4" still needs work out of the box but still less work than the m&p and also less money but still work. At minimum it needs new sights and an apex extractor. The trigger is livable especially after 1000 rounds. I have not seen or heard any accuracy issues.
The PPQ has the best trigger I have ever felt for a factory striker fired gun. I have not heard of any other issues with the gun. It doesn't "need" anything unless the user decide to change things like sights etc. walther hit a home run with this gun. I think it's not more popular because your average you tube star isn't shootinf one.
The HKVp9 may give the PPQ and others a run for the money, time will tell. The trigger is ok, certainly better than a stock m&p. It should be out of the box ready after several rounds at the range to shake it out. Certainly more ready than the glock and m&p.
Just my thoughts and rambling. I own 2 m&p VTAC 9mm pistols several glock 19s for reference and trying to show I'm impartial. the PPQ is on my short list though after having spent a significant amount of time on one.
I for one don't understand the whole ppq following.. Ok, the trigger is decent but the rest of the gun and walther as a company does absolutely nothing for me... Idk. My .02.
I think the PPQ surpasses the budget minded and entry level HK vp9 as the best out of the box gun striker fired gun. I have shot all 4 guns and the PPQ out of the box in my opinion is the best of all 4, again out of the box.
My observations:
I have issues with buying a 439 dollar M&P and having to drop a 130 trigger kit in it and 200 dollar barrel to be cary/duty ready. Sights are ok and only need to be changed to meet end user preference but aren't required.
The glock is the gold standard but "new production of both the gen 3-4" still needs work out of the box but still less work than the m&p and also less money but still work. At minimum it needs new sights and an apex extractor. The trigger is livable especially after 1000 rounds. I have not seen or heard any accuracy issues.
The PPQ has the best trigger I have ever felt for a factory striker fired gun. I have not heard of any other issues with the gun. It doesn't "need" anything unless the user decide to change things like sights etc. walther hit a home run with this gun. I think it's not more popular because your average you tube star isn't shootinf one.
The HKVp9 may give the PPQ and others a run for the money, time will tell. The trigger is ok, certainly better than a stock m&p. It should be out of the box ready after several rounds at the range to shake it out. Certainly more ready than the glock and m&p.
Just my thoughts and rambling. I own 2 m&p VTAC 9mm pistols several glock 19s for reference and trying to show I'm impartial. the PPQ is on my short list though after having spent a significant amount of time on one.
I agree that the GLOCK stock sights suck, but the vast majority of Glock's do not "need" an Apex extractor. A few may, but we are talking about a very small minority. The same can be said about M&P9 accuracy issues. A small number of guns have accuracy issues; the vast majority of guns outshoot their owners.
I take classes with Kyle a couple of times a year. The last couple of classes, he's been using a Salient modified M&P. He also doesn't push one brand over another in a serious way, the way some instructors do. He will explain why he thinks his "Warrior" sights are the best things out there and why, but he doesn't push everyone to go buy certain products the way some instructors have done.
I'm not saying anything negative about Kyle Lamb. Like I said, I was just saying. Pointing out a fact, making an observation.
It's worth bearing in mind, when someone complains that his video reminds them of a YouTube version of Guns & Ammo magazine, that he both writes articles for G&A and regularly appears on their TV show.
The Glock is a historic, game changing handgun. The PPQ and VP9 and M&P are great guns, but offer only modest (and largely inconsequential) improvements at best. Comparing any of these pistols to each other is little different than comparing a third-gen Smith & Wesson double-action auto with a Beretta 92 or a Colt Model of 1873 Single-Action Army revolver with a Remington Model of 1875 Single-Action Army revolver.
I am not arguing Glock's place in history or the fact that there are major departures in design inherent in the VP9 or the PPQ. However, the VP9 to me is a better design and offers a better out of the box trigger and sights. The accuracy is terrific and it handles very well for me. The PPQ is also a great gun in its own right and also offers a better out of the box package. Locally the Glock's are running 540 and the VP9 is 599. For the extra $59.00 it delivers a terrific setup. Larry Vickers stated that it is probably the best out of the box striker fired pistol available today. Many others have commented on it in the same manner. Glock didn't have to fix or improve much, but I was largely unimpressed by what was rolled out with the Gen4. The ability to improve on the concept will sell weapons and the VP9 and PPQ are proof of that. Arguably the firearm industry is full of weapons that have incrementally improved upon designs and slowly beaten earlier concepts out of market share. The AR-15 is a perfect example as company's such as BCM, Noveske and Daniel Defense have fought, earned and won battles against Colt. The Glock may never be "replaced", but newer designs with incremental improvement will push the technology and the company, we will see if it is for the better.
Locally the Glock's are running 540 and the VP9 is 599. For the extra $59.00 it delivers a terrific setup.
Not too make it all about price, but it is a major consideration. You're $540 is not LE pricing. If you look at G&R Tactical to keep pricing equal you'll see that Glock's go for $425 and M&P's for $400. I've never seen LE pricing for a VP9 but Grants site lists those for $625 with 2 mags so add in $50 for a third mag and you're at $675. I'm a big believer in training/practice mags and dedicated carry mags so you add 3 additional mags for the Glock and M&P for $75 and you're at $475 for M&P and $500 for Glock vs $825 for the HK. Thats a huge difference and no gun will surpass Glock or M&P unless it sees widespread adoption by LE or the US Military (curious to see how the MHS turns out). The PPQ is a great gun but it hasn't gone beyond a niche gun because no ones really adopted it.
The other issue you need to consider is commonality. I can carry a G17 on duty and a G19 or G26 off duty and have the same trigger/operating system/trigger reach. Same with M&P. If you go VP9, what's your off duty/compact going to be? P2000? Will that be TDA or LEM? Won't be striker fired. Will a VP9 holster let you also carry a P2000 like a Crossbreed will let you use the same holster for a G17/G19/G26? It's not just the gun it's the whole system. The VP9 is a better gun but not enough that it matters, especially at those prices. If HK can bring down prices (particularly mag prices), make multiple sized common models(hopefully they will), get manufacturers (particularly Safariland) to provide all the holsters/accessories then maybe. But even then, why change if you're already invested in a system as an agency. In practical application the VP9 doesn't do anything the G17 doesn't already do for allot less with allot more options.
PatrioticDisorder
01-07-15, 05:16
Not too make it all about price, but it is a major consideration. You're $540 is not LE pricing. If you look at G&R Tactical to keep pricing equal you'll see that Glock's go for $425 and M&P's for $400. I've never seen LE pricing for a VP9 but Grants site lists those for $625 with 2 mags so add in $50 for a third mag and you're at $675. I'm a big believer in training/practice mags and dedicated carry mags so you add 3 additional mags for the Glock and M&P for $75 and you're at $475 for M&P and $500 for Glock vs $825 for the HK. Thats a huge difference and no gun will surpass Glock or M&P unless it sees widespread adoption by LE or the US Military (curious to see how the MHS turns out). The PPQ is a great gun but it hasn't gone beyond a niche gun because no ones really adopted it.
The other issue you need to consider is commonality. I can carry a G17 on duty and a G19 or G26 off duty and have the same trigger/operating system/trigger reach. Same with M&P. If you go VP9, what's your off duty/compact going to be? P2000? Will that be TDA or LEM? Won't be striker fired. Will a VP9 holster let you also carry a P2000 like a Crossbreed will let you use the same holster for a G17/G19/G26? It's not just the gun it's the whole system. The VP9 is a better gun but not enough that it matters, especially at those prices. If HK can bring down prices (particularly mag prices), make multiple sized common models(hopefully they will), get manufacturers (particularly Safariland) to provide all the holsters/accessories then maybe. But even then, why change if you're already invested in a system as an agency. In practical application the VP9 doesn't do anything the G17 doesn't already do for allot less with allot more options.
A few points to be made here:
1. HK has always done great with federal law enforcement & with the Vp9 I expect them to start creeping into local and state contracts.
2. Yes G17/19/26 & M&P FS/C/Shield offer you that commonality in smaller sizes, for now. VP9 has been around 6 months, I guarantee you there will be a VP SK (sub compact) and perhaps even a K (compact) model (all which will accept the larger P30/VP9 mags, think P2000SK & P2000 size guns).
3. VP9 price has recently dipped down to $550 for the standard (non LE) package, same price as a Gen4 Glock. I'd say they are damn competitive on price. I have no doubt HK will offer agencies a big discount on that price as well. For individuals, price is a wash.
4. (I know, I know I said a few points) Holsters & accessories are already WIDELY available for the VP9 and the gun has been available all of 6 months now, pretty impressive. For example Trijicon HDs were available on day 1 (due to being the same sights used on the P30).
5. VP is FULLY ambidextrous; this matters to left handed shooters and LE agencies who have left handed shooters (big advantage IMHO).
6. VP out of the box trigger is PERFECT IMO, ergonomics are amazing compared to both Glock and M&P, the ability to replace both side and back straps that fit like a glove is another advantage for both the individual and LE agency (and military) that must select a gun to fit a wide variety of hands.
I've read others discuss how simple Glocks are to work on, etc. etc... I view HK for handguns what Knights is to ARs, perhaps Glock/M&P are the BCM/DD equivalent, HKS simply require less maintenance so having more parts is a moot point. Certainly nothing wrong with Glock/M&P, both solid choices but I believe given time the VP platform will become very popular & common and generally regarded as a higher quality firearm.
Just want to add that internationally it will be very difficult to creep into glock's alreadly dominated areas. Even if a new pistol has minor (debatable) advantages, it is very wise to stick to a proven and very successful design that has a huge availability of mags and parts everywhere.
Not too make it all about price, but it is a major consideration. You're $540 is not LE pricing. If you look at G&R Tactical to keep pricing equal you'll see that Glock's go for $425 and M&P's for $400. I've never seen LE pricing for a VP9 but Grants site lists those for $625 with 2 mags so add in $50 for a third mag and you're at $675. I'm a big believer in training/practice mags and dedicated carry mags so you add 3 additional mags for the Glock and M&P for $75 and you're at $475 for M&P and $500 for Glock vs $825 for the HK. Thats a huge difference and no gun will surpass Glock or M&P unless it sees widespread adoption by LE or the US Military (curious to see how the MHS turns out). The PPQ is a great gun but it hasn't gone beyond a niche gun because no ones really adopted it.
The other issue you need to consider is commonality. I can carry a G17 on duty and a G19 or G26 off duty and have the same trigger/operating system/trigger reach. Same with M&P. If you go VP9, what's your off duty/compact going to be? P2000? Will that be TDA or LEM? Won't be striker fired. Will a VP9 holster let you also carry a P2000 like a Crossbreed will let you use the same holster for a G17/G19/G26? It's not just the gun it's the whole system. The VP9 is a better gun but not enough that it matters, especially at those prices. If HK can bring down prices (particularly mag prices), make multiple sized common models(hopefully they will), get manufacturers (particularly Safariland) to provide all the holsters/accessories then maybe. But even then, why change if you're already invested in a system as an agency. In practical application the VP9 doesn't do anything the G17 doesn't already do for allot less with allot more options.
Well said. As silly as some of that may sound, it holds a lot of truth. How many times on how many message boards, have you seen a thread titled, " How many agencies issue (brand X), or is the (Brand X) being issued by any agencies yet?". Law Enforcement can have a tremendous impact on a weapons popularity and sales. Glock was simply in the right place at the right time. Yes there are several poly guns out there that have improvements, but there hasn't been a "need for something new" like there was when the Glock showed up. S&W and Glock were the first out with the 40 at a time when LE wanted and needed something new. The 40 was at the time a balance between the 45 and current 9. The 4006 and the G22 went head to head and Glocks price point and technology, for the time, put them on top, simple as that.
If tomorrow some large agency adopts the VP9, or PPQ, then you would see a sales increase. The P320 has been picked up by two agencies that I know of and so the rise of the P320 begins. It will be interesting to see how popular the 320 is this time next year. If it proves to be reliable and durable, who knows. There is also the caliber issue, H&K has not released the 40 cal yet. LE still has a big investment in that caliber and the 320 was released in the 9 and 40 respectively. Safariland actually had the duty holsters listed before the 320 even came out, smart move on Sig. What some manufactures need to consider is second party support. If you want a weapon to gain popularity, get it in the hands of some cops. If they don't break it, they will sell it for you. If you want to sell it to the cops, they have to be able to carry and support that weapon so plan accordingly.
TXPO
paperchasin
01-07-15, 09:11
As with any VS thread, always try to get your hands on the guns before buying. I personally shoot Glocks fine but prefer the ergos of the M&P.
PatrioticDisorder
01-07-15, 09:38
One thing that's certain over time is change. Keep in mind Glock is privately owned by an 85 year old who is being sued by his ex-wife. So on the surface Glock may seem stable and not going anywhere but upon Gaston's inevitable passing and pending the outcome of his ex wife's lawsuit, who knows what the future holds. Bear in mind the army wants a new handgun, and I'd be pretty confident saying they will want a fully ambi design that will fit a wide variety of hands and be uber reliable and durable (VP cough cough). S&W seems to be preparing to make a serious run at that contract as well, being American owned and teaming up with General Dynamics to offer an improved M&P (haven't heard much discussion on the forums about this but it's happening). I do not see Glock getting the Army contract. Glock may be the gun of today, but there is no guarantee it is the gun of the future.
Until something truly better comes along, it will be mostly a glock & AR world in the USA and the majority of the western world. Not only they are great designs (not perfect, but better than most) but the popularity/availability and widespread use makes them sort of "quantity has a quality all of its own" :)
Agreed on dominance in the US, but not so much internationally. Since we are talking all models of Glock, it's only fair to include the P99, P99C, and PPQ and licensed clones in one bucket as comparison. Same for the Sig 2xx series.
And you'd find that the Glocks are not as dominant internationally as alluded. P99 Variants are in police and military service in the hundreds of thousands world wide. Same for Sig. Yes, Glock Civvy sales are larger, primarily in the US. And Glock's historic US LEO penetration has been high, but certainly not exclusive, and certainly not a lock-in.
Want to talk about military usage? Mil only M9 production for the US is over 700k, and throw in the 92 variants and mil usage worldwide is easily over a million. We love to rag on the Beretta's, but just the sheer size of the US DOD users makes it the dominant military sidearm worldwide, even before you add some of the other countries who use it as their mil sidearm.
Just want to add that internationally it will be very difficult to creep into glock's alreadly dominated areas. Even if a new pistol has minor (debatable) advantages, it is very wise to stick to a proven and very successful design that has a huge availability of mags and parts everywhere.
Again, a bit of flawed assumption about Glock dominance internationally. Try selling one to LEO/Mil in Germany. German LEO alone recently bought over 100k P99 variants just based on the big sales.
What truly sets the Glock apart in numbers is the huge civvy uptake, and their historic unseating of S&W in US municipal LEO. Federal was not as successful for some time. And S&W/Sig is starting to turn that tide again.
The other big win for Glock was the generous blue label program which was much less strict than others. That and the everpresent armorer support to LEO and at matches. Excellent marketing call by Glock, you'd think other vendors would do similar. Compare that to the somewhat adversarial relationship S&W has with individual users. (Unless they are sponsored, that is)
Not saying that Glock does not have larger sales overall, just contesting the point that the dominance seen in the US is true in other countries. That said, Germany's super strict export laws are going to self limit Walther & HK sales relative to Glock unless licensed to mfg locally.
Well said. As silly as some of that may sound, it holds a lot of truth. How many times on how many message boards, have you seen a thread titled, " How many agencies issue (brand X), or is the (Brand X) being issued by any agencies yet?". Law Enforcement can have a tremendous impact on a weapons popularity and sales. Glock was simply in the right place at the right time. Yes there are several poly guns out there that have improvements, but there hasn't been a "need for something new" like there was when the Glock showed up. S&W and Glock were the first out with the 40 at a time when LE wanted and needed something new. The 40 was at the time a balance between the 45 and current 9. The 4006 and the G22 went head to head and Glocks price point and technology, for the time, put them on top, simple as that.
If tomorrow some large agency adopts the VP9, or PPQ, then you would see a sales increase. The P320 has been picked up by two agencies that I know of and so the rise of the P320 begins. It will be interesting to see how popular the 320 is this time next year. If it proves to be reliable and durable, who knows. There is also the caliber issue, H&K has not released the 40 cal yet. LE still has a big investment in that caliber and the 320 was released in the 9 and 40 respectively. Safariland actually had the duty holsters listed before the 320 even came out, smart move on Sig. What some manufactures need to consider is second party support. If you want a weapon to gain popularity, get it in the hands of some cops. If they don't break it, they will sell it for you. If you want to sell it to the cops, they have to be able to carry and support that weapon so plan accordingly.
TXPO
Regarding Sig 320 and safariland I'd note with reasonable certainty that the 320 and p250 share the same holster and 250 was already out for a number of years.
One thing that's certain over time is change. Keep in mind Glock is privately owned by an 85 year old who is being sued by his ex-wife. So on the surface Glock may seem stable and not going anywhere but upon Gaston's inevitable passing and pending the outcome of his ex wife's lawsuit, who knows what the future holds.
Snip....
I do not see Glock getting the Army contract. Glock may be the gun of today, but there is no guarantee it is the gun of the future.
I agree with your general points... but remember last time the Army selection process ended up with the 92 vs arguably superior competitors. Gamesmanship in testing, silly rules, corruption, who knows... just that those types of competitions are always wild cards. Nothing would surprise me as an outcome. (unfortunately)
The P99/PPQ M1 variants could be a contender, but I don't have much confidence in Walther's ability/interest to compete. HK seems much more savy/interested. Smith may be taking the right path in partnering with a large company who deals with these type evaluation/competitions for pretty much all their work.
Agreed on dominance in the US, but not so much internationally.
For the glock, there are many other .mil/LE users than in this long, incomplete list (virtually all of south america has some units using it):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#Users
Which other pistol comes close?
"Regarding Sig 320 and safariland I'd note with reasonable certainty that the 320 and p250 share the same holster and 250 was already out for a number of years."
Actually they are different holsters due to the slide design difference on the 320. Some reports were the 250 holsters would works with the 320 but I have not been able to confirm this. Safariland did make a P320 specific design. Sig typically sends a prototype to Safariland when they are ready to release a new duty pistol. Glock usually does this as well as S&W. According to Safariland they won't make a holster for a particular weapon, unless the manufacture sends a sample for them to mold from, or unless a large agency wants some made up for an new duty weapon. The have a listing for the Walther PPQ M1/P99Q because of a European agency called them a while back and placed an order for duty holsters. They still don't have PPQM2 specific holster because no agencies here have requested them, and Walther has not sent them a model to mold from.
TXPO
Ah, good to know. From my readings it appeared they were compatible.
For the glock, there are many other .mil/LE users than in this long, incomplete list (virtually all or south america has some units using it):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock#Users
Which other pistol comes close?
Ah, the wonders of Wikipedia user lists.
Yes it's an impressive list of users. But take a look at the same lists for 92, P99, Sig 2xx, and you'll see many of the same names.
So its just a list of "someone uses a Glock" in that org for many cases.
Its significant that US SF and 75th uses Glocks from a quality perspective. But insignificant from an installed base view, relative to DOD m9 usage.
Likewise, Thailand's 2000 Glock pistols is a drop in the bucket compared to US DoD usage of over 700,000 beretta m9/92. Add France, Brazil, Turkey, and several other large militaries and you'll see what the dominant mil pistol is.
NYPD, biggest PD in the world... 34k officers to put it into perspective. Very significant glock installed base for sure... Just not as dominant worldwide as alluded.
You can't make assumptions on user bases from wiki user lists... They do not factor in size of the respective groups.
Likewise, its a bit disingenuous to lump all glocks in one bucket and not others... 92 variants and licensed clones as close to each other as most of the Glock generations. Same for p99 variants.
No qualitative judgment on glocks, Beretta, Walther's implied, just talking about size of mil/Leo user groups worldwide.
Any glock dominance in overall numbers is due to successfully breaking smith municipal PD dominance, and then also breaking into fed agencies over time. Then enabling the huge civvy uptake, again largely in the US.
"Dominant" position is based on number of pistols used, number of countries that use it, number of units/agencies/services, or the quality these units? :)
Yes, It IS significant that US SF and 75th uses Glocks from a quality perspective, as do many similar units worldwide.
Brazil have been trying to get a new pistol (and rifle) for ages to replace the berettas and taurus.
To put a dated design like the beretta 92 (in its many iterations) like the dominant .mil pistol worldwide? Its place is like the HP35 (cemented on huge numbers purchased) just before everyone changed to something better. Hey, Australia still uses the HP35.
"Dominant" position is based on number of pistols used, number of countries that use it, number of units/agencies/services, or the quality these units? :)
Yes, It IS significant that US SF and 75th uses Glocks from a quality perspective, as do many similar units worldwide.
Brazil have been trying to get a new pistol (and rifle) for ages to replace the berettas and taurus.
To put a dated design like the beretta 92 (in its many iterations) like the dominant .mil pistol worldwide? Its place is like the HP35 (cemented on huge numbers purchased) just before everyone changed to something better. Hey, Australia still uses the HP35.
The initial comments were about user base and "dominance". If you want to say more important agencies use Glocks, that's different. And will trigger a debate, as that is inherently subjective.
Re: the Beretta extremely large mil user base... you are hitting on the "Market Mediocrity" rule... VHS was technically inferior but had the market share over betamax (need a new example). Just be aware that the same argument is starting to surface around Glock's dominance in US LEO... how much is inertia vs how much is deserved based on current product/quality.
You guys can go back to the debate on shilling, which pistol is better, etc. Just be aware that over long periods of time, rarely is "best" and "largest user base" the same. The current M4 variants are arguably exceptions Now, but if you made the statement that AR's were dominant in the 1980-2005 timeframe, you'd get a very different response from many serious users. And in no way am I implying that the Glocks and AR's are not deserving and major players.
My comments are in no way about the quality of the individual guns as I think the HK is an outstanding gun. I just don't think they, under current conditions, will seriously threaten Glock or M&P for dominance in the US marketplace. To do that they need a big PR win. Let's say the MHS trials pick the VP9 or the FBI picks it as it's next issue handgun, under those conditions all bets are off but something like that needs to happen first. In the meantime if you're just looking at it from what you want individually and you can get the holsters and sights you want for it and you don't mind dropping $50 on a single mag and you don't care about having a compact version with the same manual of arms, then why would you care anyway. Shoot what you want.
PatrioticDisorder
01-07-15, 16:35
My comments are in no way about the quality of the individual guns as I think the HK is an outstanding gun. I just don't think they, under current conditions, will seriously threaten Glock or M&P for dominance in the US marketplace. To do that they need a big PR win. Let's say the MHS trials pick the VP9 or the FBI picks it as it's next issue handgun, under those conditions all bets are off but something like that needs to happen first. In the meantime if you're just looking at it from what you want individually and you can get the holsters and sights you want for it and you don't mind dropping $50 on a single mag and you don't care about having a compact version with the same manual of arms, then why would you care anyway. Shoot what you want.
I paid $38 for my mags, others have paid as low as $33 & they can still be had for $40 a mag even with high demand due to the success of the VP9, not $50.... Compact version is inevitable, the gun has only been out 6 months compared to Glocks 30 years.
I paid $38 for my mags, others have paid as low as $33 & they can still be had for $40 a mag even with high demand due to the success of the VP9, not $50.... Compact version is inevitable, the gun has only been out 6 months compared to Glocks 30 years.
Can you provide me with a link to $38 or even $40 mags? You'll make a buddy of mine very happy.
Nightstalker865
01-07-15, 17:22
Can you provide me with a link to $38 or even $40 mags? You'll make a buddy of mine very happy.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=234316S
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=234316S
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you very much.
MountainRaven
01-07-15, 19:36
Ah, the wonders of Wikipedia user lists.
Yes it's an impressive list of users. But take a look at the same lists for 92, P99, Sig 2xx, and you'll see many of the same names.
So its just a list of "someone uses a Glock" in that org for many cases.
Its significant that US SF and 75th uses Glocks from a quality perspective. But insignificant from an installed base view, relative to DOD m9 usage.
Likewise, Thailand's 2000 Glock pistols is a drop in the bucket compared to US DoD usage of over 700,000 beretta m9/92. Add France, Brazil, Turkey, and several other large militaries and you'll see what the dominant mil pistol is.
NYPD, biggest PD in the world... 34k officers to put it into perspective. Very significant glock installed base for sure... Just not as dominant worldwide as alluded.
You can't make assumptions on user bases from wiki user lists... They do not factor in size of the respective groups.
Likewise, its a bit disingenuous to lump all glocks in one bucket and not others... 92 variants and licensed clones as close to each other as most of the Glock generations. Same for p99 variants.
No qualitative judgment on glocks, Beretta, Walther's implied, just talking about size of mil/Leo user groups worldwide.
Any glock dominance in overall numbers is due to successfully breaking smith municipal PD dominance, and then also breaking into fed agencies over time. Then enabling the huge civvy uptake, again largely in the US.
As Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and others have said: We live in a Glock world.
Glocks are used on every continent on earth. Except possibly Antarctica. You can find a Glock in most countries on earth - and not infrequently in the holsters of professional faceshooters. Israel? Glocks. UK? Glocks. US? Glocks. Scandinavia? Glocks.
You want to know how much market saturation Glock has achieved? Russian SOF are using Glocks. In Russia, for normal operations.
Does Germany use Glocks? No. But Germany has Not Invented Here Syndrome on steroids. It took H&K making an AR-15 for their SOF to start using one.
Seriously. The VP9 and M&P are excellent weapons. And the M&P has made some stunning inroads into Glock territory. But most users who are going to use polymer-framed, striker-fired, double-stack 9mm handguns already have chosen one. Most of them have chosen the Glock. And the VP9 and the M&P - though excellent designs - do not do anything better enough than the Glock - or each other - to justify an institutional user of one system to drop one in favor of another.
Whatever handgun does ultimately, finally supplant the Glock will not be a VP9 or an M&P. It will be something that does to the Glock what the Glock did to the Browning Hi-Power, Walther P1, and Smith & Wesson model 59. Higher capacity and lighter weight (smaller isn't really necessary, considering the constraints on human hand size). Maybe it will be smaller and expand or fold out as you grab hold of it, like the guns in Mass Effect. Who knows? All I know is that the future still isn't here yet.
My input was that it will be interesting to see what happens in the future with platforms such as the VP9 and PPQ which I feel offer an out of the box improvement over the Glock. The Glock is a great design I own Glocks and will continue to own them, but will be buying more VP9s in the future. While I can get the Glock's cheaper with the noted discounts, having a gun that I believe offers me a superior fit, finish and feel is worth the extra money every time. Viewing the arguments thus far, it was hard not to think that perhaps there is a comparison between Glocks and Gonorrhea.
We live in a Gonorrhea world.
Lots of people have Gonorrhea.
People in special units have Gonorrhea.
People on all continents have Gonorrhea.
Why would I want to buy penicillin when I can get Gonorrhea for less?
I can live with Gonorrhea, all I have to do is alter my stance, drink snake oil and buy larger pants and everything is good to go.
The argument is not so much about how many people have the item as it can quickly become and argumentum ad populum. It is not about which is the cheapest as this seems to be in direct contradiction to most peoples statements on here about buying quality ARs. The 6920 is a great gun, but if it was the end all be all then BCM, DD, Noveske and others would be out of business. It is not necessarily about how many flavors there are of that system. What is at the heart of this argument is the quality of the firearm. While the fact that many agencies have it, select agencies have it, and that it comes in many favors may indicate quality it does not necessarily equal quality or the best quality available. On a qualitative basis the VP9 and PPQ are better out of the box guns. I will take the Penicillin others may want to slam their cocks in a book and experience the "clap" or simply enjoy the discomfort.
As Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, and others have said: We live in a Glock world.
Glocks are used on every continent on earth. Except possibly Antarctica. You can find a Glock in most countries on earth - and not infrequently in the holsters of professional faceshooters. Israel? Glocks. UK? Glocks. US? Glocks. Scandinavia? Glocks.
You want to know how much market saturation Glock has achieved? Russian SOF are using Glocks. In Russia, for normal operations.
Got it... all the cool kids use Glocks. (except the ones that don't... seems like there are still some sig face shooters out there)
You are missing my point... usage by high speed types means something for sure, but that does not automatically translate into user base (#'s issued).
The original post was that Glock dominated in selection by armies and PD's worldwide, which is simply not true. The numbers do not work.
And remember, Russia <> USSR... If the Russian army all used Glocks (they don't), they are still a small fraction of the size of the armies larger than them which do not issue Glocks as mainstream service pistol.
Does Germany use Glocks? No. But Germany has Not Invented Here Syndrome on steroids. It took H&K making an AR-15 for their SOF to start using one.
Nor does: US, China, S Korea (ROK), India, N Korea, most of the IDF, Pakistan, etc, all with armies significantly larger than Russia.
Again, not comparing quality of armies or their pistols. Just pure numbers. And by the numbers, Glock is not the dominant military pistol. This is factual, not subject to debate. Glock can be better, cooler, up and coming, many other things. But not the largest installed military base.
Whatever handgun does ultimately, finally supplant the Glock will not be a VP9 or an M&P. It will be something that does to the Glock what the Glock did to the Browning Hi-Power, Walther P1, and Smith & Wesson model 59.
This I agree with... I see the Glock revolution as being very similar to what Toyota/Honda did to the automotive industry. Part Economics, part reliability, part effective sales campaigns, and an aspect of being at the right place at the right time.
So they (toyota/Glock) are now the sales leader in the US. They are not all perfect, and some may even be inferior than others for certain things. But the safe choice, with some good reason.
Someone will unseat Glock, and same for Toyota. Maybe due to merit, or maybe for other reasons.
As an individual, when Camry's were half the price of Euro cars, and better quality, it was a no brainer. Same for Glocks.
But with Glock, Walther, and HK all +- 10% of each other it's less clear. Then add some reliability questions in current Glock models, and it gets fuzzier.
I don't want a Camry (Glock) when I can get a euro sedan (PPQ/P99AS) for the same price that handles & shoots better for me, and has a flawless quality reputation relative to competitors.
But that's just me, you can shoot what you want. :-)
brushy bill
01-07-15, 22:51
Nor does: US, China, S Korea (ROK), India, N Korea, most of the IDF, Pakistan, etc, all with armies significantly larger than Russia.
I am not sure IDF is larger than Russian army and can't seem to find via Google fu. Are you comparing Russian / Israeli armies or Russian Army vs entire Israeli Defense Force (all services)?
I am not sure IDF is larger than Russian army and can't seem to find via Google fu. Are you comparing Russian / Israeli armies or Russian Army vs entire Israeli Defense Force (all services)?
Getting a bit off topic, but the Russian army is much smaller than most would think, and the "Mazi" (Israeli army) is much larger than most would realize.
Exact figures requires some leveling as some armies also have a significant border patrol element and as such get excluded as they are not deployable.
Likewise, the reserves of some countries have a higher level of readiness/performance than mainstream armies of others.
Remember, the Russian army:
- is much smaller than the USSR army, which is what we tend to think of
- is smaller than overall Russian military. Large Navy, Airforce, etc. About 50-60% is ground forces.
- is smaller now than it was in 2008, for some very specific reasons (80-90% reduction in number of units, 50-70% or more reduction in soldiers)
- is smaller now than it is on paper due to demographic issues (285k vs 400k on paper)
- has a smaller fraction yet in missions/roles aligned to what we would consider Army. (Vs. Border Patrol/Police)
- is much more effective now than it was while larger in 2008
- reserve element is considered militarily in-effective, largely ex-conscripts with very low level of readiness
Israel army:
- 175k active personel (Mazi, the army, not IDF overall. Traditional army ground forces, with no border patrol/police mission, etc)
- 445k reserve which has a higher level of readiness than many active units in other armies
Considering the relative sizes of the countries, its an amazing difference.
What makes Russia remain powerful is the other parts of it's military: Nuclear, navy (and especially subs), air-force.
Israel spends about 5.5% of GDP on defence, with majority going to ground forces. (Minimal navy).
Russia about 4%, with much focus on Navy, Airforce, and lately, technology.
Power & effectiveness is not the same as size, for sure. But we were talking size earlier, Russia is simply not as big as we tend to remember. With some unexpected names being much larger when adjusted to be apples to apples comparison (China, India, Pakistan, N Korea, S Korea, Turkey, etc)
India is on the move, with mil expenditures growing at the fastest rate of any, and is expected to pass Russia in terms of total expenditures. China is huge, (1.5M+) but there are questions on readiness, etc. But even if you discounted 50% or more it's still the largest ground force. Pakistan has a very large standing army, and may pass the US on paper if our cuts continue.
FYI: Most comparisons lump the US Army and Marines together as our Marines fight as a conventional Army for the most part. Where in most other country marines are much narrowly scoped in a true Marine role/mission as ship based infantry.
As far as sources, most consider Janes and IISS to be as accurate as any, and that's who most of the internet secondary sources reference. As an aside, it's the job of one of my sons to know this type of thing and he regularly disabuses me of past cold war Soviet perceptions. In no way does this mean Russia is not powerful, just in a different way than the classic Soviet juggernaut we remember.
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