View Full Version : Thinking of trying Vltor A5.......what spring
Hey team, question please. Thinking of trying Vltor A5 on a 14.5 mid. What spring is recommended. The kits I see on websites come with a stock rifle spring. But in researching some suggest sprinco green. Can you suggest a preferred spring or just use the one that comes with buffer tube kit.
jerrysimons
11-01-14, 11:11
Paging BufordTJustice...
The factory spring is a good spring, but the green springco is preferred.
BufordTJustice
11-01-14, 12:32
Paging BufordTJustice...
I have used every quality rifle spring (Colt, BCM, Brownells SS, Brownells CS, Tubbs flat wire, Springco Green, Wolff reduced power, & Wolff std power.) And the factory copper washed Vltor A5 spring provided the smoothest recoil impulse.
It's literally one of the only situations where the factory spring is best.
Because it is a rifle spring, it will have an inherently longer life than carbine springs.
I've got two Vltor A5 springs that have over 4000 rounds on them and their length is identical to a factory new Vltor spring.
EDIT: My wife uses my old upper, a BCM 14.5" middy, and she uses the std Vltor copper washed spring with an A5H4 buffer. It's the apex setup for that gas system when not using a suppressor.
I prefer and use the Sprinco green spring. All of my lowers use them.
I prefer and use the Sprinco green spring. All of my lowers use them.
Same here
jerrysimons
11-01-14, 19:44
I have used every quality rifle spring (Colt, BCM, Brownells SS, Brownells CS, Tubbs flat wire, Springco Green, Wolff reduced power, & Wolff std power.) And the factory copper washed Vltor A5 spring provided the smoothest recoil impulse.
It's literally one of the only situations where the factory spring is best.
Because it is a rifle spring, it will have an inherently longer life than carbine springs.
I've got two Vltor A5 springs that have over 4000 rounds on them and their length is identical to a factory new Vltor spring.
EDIT: My wife uses my old upper, a BCM 14.5" middy, and she uses the std Vltor copper washed spring with an A5H4 buffer. It's the apex setup for that gas system when not using a suppressor.
I thought you were now using the Wolff reduced power?
You sequenced all the springs in another thread.
BufordTJustice
11-01-14, 20:41
I thought you were now using the Wolff reduced power?
You sequenced all the springs in another thread.
Sorry. Need to update. Back to Vltor, though that Wolff RP spring is closest in performance and feel to the Vltor spring.
One of the nice things about the A5 is that many different rifle springs work well.
As a default, just run the stock vltor spring that comes with it.
I have had 100% reliability with the Vltor spring. In my 14.5 I have the -2 buffer and Vltor spring. I have 6 rifles with the A5 RE and 5 have the Vltor spring and one has a Colt spring I think. All are 100% reliable.
I have never used a Sprinco anything.
I prefer the stock spring that comes with the A5 kit. I tried a Sprinco Green and the A5 spring is a lot smoother IMO.
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 00:03
I have had 100% reliability with the Vltor spring. In my 14.5 I have the -2 buffer and Vltor spring. I have 6 rifles with the A5 RE and 5 have the Vltor spring and one has a Colt spring I think. All are 100% reliable.
I have never used a Sprinco anything.
The Springco is an excellent spring and no doubt it will outlast the std Vltor spring, but for the A5 it may be gilding the lily. Regardless, anybody who runs it will not be poorly served. Springco makes quality stuff.
EDIT: I rec Springco white or blue springs in carbine receiver extensions above all others and I use their 5 coil extractor springs exclusively. They make great kit, but their green spring allowed more gun movement and caused muzzle dip for me whereas the A5 spring doesn't cause muzzle dip in any config I've tried, regardless of buffer weight.
Glockman1968
11-02-14, 12:10
Interesting... I threw the "green" in as soon as I had the castle nut staked. Never bothered with the spring that came with the kit.
Just to be absolutely clear, when you say copper colored spring, we are referring to the stock spring that comes with the kit?
The reason I ask is I did not notice a copper finish on the spring I got with the kit. Kit was ordered from RogTactical (no afilliation whatsoever).
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 12:48
Interesting... I threw the "green" in as soon as I had the castle nut staked. Never bothered with the spring that came with the kit.
Just to be absolutely clear, when you say copper colored spring, we are referring to the stock spring that comes with the kit?
The reason I ask is I did not notice a copper finish on the spring I got with the kit. Kit was ordered from RogTactical (no afilliation whatsoever).
The current Vltor A5 spring as ordered from Vltor is very similar in color to the new Colt copper washed extractor spring. They are $5 from Vltor. I know the early A5 springs from Vltor had a very dull, sandy/copper color and a rougher finish.
The Vltor spring actually has a slightly different spring rate than a std rifle spring according to Phreakish. Having used virtually every quality rifle spring on the market, I now believe him.
Glockman1968
11-02-14, 14:51
Is it safe to assume the spring rate between the old and new are different?
The spring I got almost looks "caulky" if thats a good enough description. Lke a penny that went through a laundry wash cycle. Definitely not like the Colt extrator spring.
jerrysimons
11-02-14, 15:04
The current Vltor A5 spring as ordered from Vltor is very similar in color to the new Colt copper washed extractor spring. They are $5 from Vltor. I know the early A5 springs from Vltor had a very dull, sandy/copper color and a rougher finish.
The Vltor spring actually has a slightly different spring rate than a std rifle spring according to Phreakish. Having used virtually every quality rifle spring on the market, I now believe him.
Have you reordered your judgment of each springs stiffness? Why did you switch back to the Vltor, needed more carrier return velocity? How about Brownell's CS rifle spring? Maybe Spring Co will make a rifle equivalent to the carbine white spring.
One of the nice things about the A5 is that many different rifle springs work well.
As a default, just run the stock vltor spring that comes with it.
I'll admit, it's only out of laziness/cheapness, but the stock setup on all my A5 lowers has worked perfectly, so I haven't ventured to see what I can change on something that already works better than I need it to. I just spent that money on more A5 kits.
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 15:17
Is it safe to assume the spring rate between the old and new are different?
The spring I got almost looks "caulky" if thats a good enough description. Lke a penny that went through a laundry wash cycle. Definitely not like the Colt extrator spring.
That's the first gen. I found the rates seem identical, the first gen is just rougher.
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 15:21
Have you reordered your judgment of each springs stiffness? Why did you switch back to the Vltor, needed more carrier return velocity? How about Brownell's CS rifle spring? Maybe Spring Co will make a rifle equivalent to the carbine white spring.
Brownells was fine and felt similar, but I'm in Florida and the last formal training day I had I got POURED on with my AR15. Ultimately, the Vltor spring had more corrosion protection than even the 17-7 ph mil spec springs and it just felt best.
A lot of engineering went into the Vltor spring according to Phreakish. I keep finding that they did the job right the first time.
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 15:22
Have you reordered your judgment of each springs stiffness? Why did you switch back to the Vltor, needed more carrier return velocity? How about Brownell's CS rifle spring? Maybe Spring Co will make a rifle equivalent to the carbine white spring.
I have a bunch of notes at home (I'm at Disney World now, feeding the animals). I'll try to find them and post the updated version in the next few days.
What Phreakish was stating about the Vltor spring is, There are two types of M16A4 rifle springs, one is called the "Commercial" and the other is called "MilSpec". From our observation, the Commercial grade spring is softer, slightly shorter and is short a couple coils, when compared to the MilSpec spring. In the early days of the A5 system, Vltor found out the hard way that there were two different springs on the market. The current Vltor A5 spring is made to the exacting specs stated on the A4 TDP.
Eric
Brownells was fine and felt similar, but I'm in Florida and the last formal training day I had I got POURED on with my AR15. Ultimately, the Vltor spring had more corrosion protection than even the 17-7 ph mil spec springs and it just felt best.
A lot of engineering went into the Vltor spring according to Phreakish. I keep finding that they did the job right the first time.
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 17:18
What Phreakish was stating about the Vltor spring is, There are two types of M16A4 rifle springs, one is called the "Commercial" and the other is called "MilSpec". From our observation, the Commercial grade spring is softer, slightly shorter and is short a couple coils, when compared to the MilSpec spring. In the early days of the A5 system, Vltor found out the hard way that there were two different springs on the market. The current Vltor A5 spring is made to the exacting specs stated on the A4 TDP.
Eric
Gotcha and thank you for the clarification. Do you know when Vltor made the changeover?
I ask because I bought some A5 springs late last year directly from Vltor and they all feel as if they have slightly less compressive force than some colt rifle springs bought late last year and a BCM rifle spring bought this spring.
EDIT: The BCM and the colt feel identical except the BCM has a noticeably smoother finish on it. So much smoother that it cycles smoother and more quietly when running the charging handle.
I didn't know Vltor had revised the spring at all. I have the original, which is definitely a 1st gen and it's not copper colored at all. I also have a Sprinco green spring, but I've never swapped them back and forth at the range to compare. Now I'm curious to get the new Vltor spring and swap all 3 back and forth to see what difference there is between them for myself.
Glockman1968
11-02-14, 20:11
I didn't know Vltor had revised the spring at all. I have the original, which is definitely a 1st gen and it's not copper colored at all. I also have a Sprinco green spring, but I've never swapped them back and forth at the range to compare. Now I'm curious to get the new Vltor spring and swap all 3 back and forth to see what difference there is between them for myself.
This sounds like a winner to me too.
Buford, your experience seems similar to mine as far as the "green" goes in that in both compression and extention I'm getting what feels like more muzzle movement than what I wanted out of the system. I'm also running the -3 which really slows the works down IMHO.
So theoretically, a different spring rate would smooth that out?? Does that sound right?
I've got the green sprinco and a BCM to try..... Dammit, guess I may have to add the vltor...
There was no really change over, we accidentally bought a batch of Commercial springs and sold a few. Within a week or so after selling them, we had complaints by the customers, so we quarantine the batch, and discovered the difference between Commercial and MilSpec. No change over, just a learning experience.
I really don't know what Vltor is using for springs these day, but I doubt they deviated from the A4 TDP. It might be from a different vendor, but it's probably is made to the same specs, no matter the color. I'll check with Vltor to see what they're running these days.
Eric
Gotcha and thank you for the clarification. Do you know when Vltor made the changeover?
I ask because I bought some A5 springs late last year directly from Vltor and they all feel as if they have slightly less compressive force than some colt rifle springs bought late last year and a BCM rifle spring bought this spring.
EDIT: The BCM and the colt feel identical except the BCM has a noticeably smoother finish on it. So much smoother that it cycles smoother and more quietly when running the charging handle.
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 21:07
There was no really change over, we accidentally bought a batch of Commercial springs and sold a few. Within a week or so after selling them, we had complaints by the customers, so we quarantine the batch, and discovered the difference between Commercial and MilSpec. No change over, just a learning experience.
I really don't know what Vltor is using for springs these day, but I doubt they deviated from the A4 TDP. It might be from a different vendor, but it's probably is made to the same specs, no matter the color. I'll check with Vltor to see what they're running these days.
Eric
Thank you sir. I look forward to your response.
Also, what a great system. :)
BufordTJustice
11-02-14, 21:09
This sounds like a winner to me too.
Buford, your experience seems similar to mine as far as the "green" goes in that in both compression and extention I'm getting what feels like more muzzle movement than what I wanted out of the system. I'm also running the -3 which really slows the works down IMHO.
So theoretically, a different spring rate would smooth that out?? Does that sound right?
I agree with that statement that the std spring rate would smooth things out.
I spoke with Alan at Springco a while back and, while he's a great guy, he wasn't interested at all in making a std power rifle spring. I suspect the green will continue to be the only offering.
Glockman1968
11-02-14, 21:27
I agree with that statement that the std spring rate would smooth things out.
I spoke with Alan at Springco a while back and, while he's a great guy, he wasn't interested at all in making a std power rifle spring. I suspect the green will continue to be the only offering.
As I suspected. In compression, the green seems to really slow everything down. And in extention... well it seems to really go into battery with authority. Alot movement over a longer period of time is what it feels like to me.
For the knowledge pool I'm running a 16in middie.
I like stock spring weights.
Overspringing everything just makes the gun shoot like shit. Carbines and pistols.
I run a stock VLTOR A5 spring.
Buford,
I just checked, Vltor is still using the same spring as before. They go back and fourth with vendors, but the springs always test out the same, no matter the color. Myself, I prefer the M16A4 spring rate over the aftermarket springs and they're cheaper too.
Thanks for the kind words. I never thought the A5 would be as popular as it is. It something I was toying around with back in the late 1990's, ran it on my personal weapon, because it was the perfect set-up for my two uppers, SPR and M4. I never thought it would go anywhere until the Marines came to us and asked for a better system than what they currently were running (Fixed stock). They asked for a collapsible stock system, with rifle buffer system reliability. Well, after three test programs, the A5 proved it. Now I wish they had the budget to buy them.. Maybe some day.
Eric
Thank you sir. I look forward to your response.
Also, what a great system. :)
BufordTJustice
11-03-14, 19:42
Buford,
I just checked, Vltor is still using the same spring as before. They go back and fourth with vendors, but the springs always test out the same, no matter the color. Myself, I prefer the M16A4 spring rate over the aftermarket springs and they're cheaper too.
Thanks for the kind words. I never thought the A5 would be as popular as it is. It something I was toying around with back in the late 1990's, ran it on my personal weapon, because it was the perfect set-up for my two uppers, SPR and M4. I never thought it would go anywhere until the Marines came to us and asked for a better system than what they currently were running (Fixed stock). They asked for a collapsible stock system, with rifle buffer system reliability. Well, after three test programs, the A5 proved it. Now I wish they had the budget to buy them.. Maybe some day.
Eric
For how well it performs, I still think it's a well-kept secret. It does everything better than the carbine system and arguably than the rifle system with its biasing spring (proper nomenclature?) and extra pre-load on the rifle spring over the rifle system.
I simply refuse to use anything else. Without kissing even more of your keister, it's the next evolution. Plain and simple.
EDIT: I think it's as close as we'll get to an AR15 running out on springs like a Stoner 63 in terms of recoil impulse.
I never thought the A5 would be as popular as it is. It something I was toying around with back in the late 1990's, ran it on my personal weapon, because it was the perfect set-up for my two uppers, SPR and M4. I never thought it would go anywhere until the Marines came to us and asked for a better system than what they currently were running (Fixed stock). Eric
Pardon my complete ignorance, but can you please provide a bit more context for the above statements? Did you design the A5 buffer and sell it to VLTOR?
BufordTJustice
11-03-14, 20:58
Pardon my complete ignorance, but can you please provide a bit more context for the above statements? Did you design the A5 buffer and sell it to VLTOR?
He did design the A5 system while working at Vltor, or perhaps even before his tenure there.
He did design the A5 system while working at Vltor, or perhaps even before his tenure there.
Thank-you kindly Mr. Justice.....ESK, thanks much for the A5, I own a lot of them. :)
I got the Vltor A5 kit. Put it in and shot it a bit. Dang what a great setup! I just ordered 2 more!
I started Vltor back in 2002, in the basement of my house, in North Idaho. Even thought I left Vltor almost two years ago (to work with BCM) I have no affiliation with Vltor anymore, but still support the company I founded. Unfortunately, I get no royalties for the A5 system, I still promote it and hope to see it fielded for the modern warfighter. Until then, I'm glad we all can enjoy it. Thanks.
Eric
Pardon my complete ignorance, but can you please provide a bit more context for the above statements? Did you design the A5 buffer and sell it to VLTOR?
Eric,
Many here appreciate what a true innovation the A5 system represents.
Some still believe a 3oz CAR buffer is "good enough", but they're just the ones who haven't tried the A5 yet.
You've changed the conversation forever. You moved the needle.
Thank you.
I prefer and use the Sprinco green spring. All of my lowers use them.
What buffer do ya'll use then? A5H2 A5H3, 4?
Thanks!
What buffer do ya'll use then? A5H2 A5H3, 4?
Thanks!
It's best to try different buffers until you find the right one that works the best in your set up.
The H2 (standard) seems to work the best for most. I use an H4 in my 12.5" M16 that is suppressed 99% of the time. I use an H1 in one of my RECCE type rifles.
I try to use the lightest buffer that will lock back on the last round of the weakest ammo I shoot.
It's kind of pricey to have a bunch of A5 buffers laying around but it does make a difference when you can "tune" your rifle.
What buffer do ya'll use then? A5H2 A5H3, 4?
Thanks!
To add to what Cory said..its not just what buffer is used. Barrel length, gas system length & port size, suppressed or not, muzzle device type, buffer spring rates/lengths, ammo differences, differing bolt carrier designs and other factors ALL put together play a huge factor in two things: the rifle's felt recoil and more importantly its reliability. It takes a lot of time to figure what works best or better put to discover that sweet spot of soft shooter PLUS reliably running on soft ammo like PMC Bronze. Whatever my rifles have to achieve that goal you can bet one thing will always be on them and that's the A5 system. Can't go wrong with it.
-Jax
It's best to try different buffers until you find the right one that works the best in your set up.
The H2 (standard) seems to work the best for most. I use an H4 in my 12.5" M16 that is suppressed 99% of the time. I use an H1 in one of my RECCE type rifles.
I try to use the lightest buffer that will lock back on the last round of the weakest ammo I shoot.
It's kind of pricey to have a bunch of A5 buffers laying around but it does make a difference when you can "tune" your rifle.
Is this correct, or did you mean to say the heaviest?
Glockman1968
11-08-14, 09:55
What buffer do ya'll use then? A5H2 A5H3, 4?
Thanks!
DD V7. 16in middie. A5H3 with Sprinco green. No failure to do anything. 100% reliability.
What buffer do ya'll use then? A5H2 A5H3, 4?
Thanks!
Just some data -
BCM lower with A5H4 and Green SpringCo.
BCM 11.5 Carbine
BCM 16 Middy
Ammo
AE 223
Fed XM855
Fed XM193
IMI M193
Cycled and locked back with all ammo listed.
Harold
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Before everyone Dogpiles on me, I'm still trying to figure out why everyone thinks they need an A5? Help me see the Light. If this ain't the thread for this, Mods please let me know and I'll delete this post.
But out of the Colt, BCMs, KAC, and LMT I've owned, I've literally never had a Single Malfunction (other than some overpressured Hornady Tap Back in the day that popped primers on every round) *Knock on Wood*
Granted, I haven't ran Suppressed nor SBR's or junk steel cased ammo.
Thread is titled "thinking of trying an A5..." I'm not saying it hasn't crossed my mind several times, but really trying to guage if it's really worth spending the coin or not. I'm wondering if "if it ain't broke, dont fix it" applies here.
-DOGPILE-
For me it is about the quality product they make. When I am throwing a rifle together and need a receiver extension etc. why wouldn't I use one that is at or near the best in the industry?
-DOGPILE-
For me it is about the quality product they make. When I am throwing a rifle together and need a receiver extension etc. why wouldn't I use one that is at or near the best in the industry?
Good point sir.
The point that is often overlooked it this. If you are someone that has other uppers, you can configure it in such a way that one lower will work across the board. This is in addition to all of the other things that have been mentioned in a half a dozen or so A5 threads.
As for the cost, when you are starting from scratch the cost difference is minimal. The buffers are only slightly more than an H3 buffer in cost, and the tube itself is about 12.00 more than a good MILSPEC tube.
You can use any rifle spring, castle nut or endplate.
Before everyone Dogpiles on me, I'm still trying to figure out why everyone thinks they need an A5? Help me see the Light. If this ain't the thread for this, Mods please let me know and I'll delete this post.
But out of the Colt, BCMs, KAC, and LMT I've owned, I've literally never had a Single Malfunction (other than some overpressured Hornady Tap Back in the day that popped primers on every round) *Knock on Wood*
Granted, I haven't ran Suppressed nor SBR's or junk steel cased ammo.
Thread is titled "thinking of trying an A5..." I'm not saying it hasn't crossed my mind several times, but really trying to guage if it's really worth spending the coin or not. I'm wondering if "if it ain't broke, dont fix it" applies here.
Glockman1968
11-08-14, 15:56
Hey Gunz, I'd apperciate your input as far as the standard spring is concerned. Obviously you prefer the Sprinco.
I, as I'm sure others here do, listen when you give an opinion on a subject. Is it simply the longevity of the Sprinco? Or do you just simply prefer how the spring "feels"?
Related question, I was checking back on this thread and am unclear on one thing. If some people report the sprinco being a bit less smooth, what is the flip side of that, longer life? Greater reliability or tolerance?
jerrysimons
11-08-14, 16:44
The Springco green is stiffer, not sure how this translates to "smoothness" exactly but I have noticed increased return to battery velocity with it, which can translate to muzzle dip when the BCG hits home.
Edit: the flip side is the BCG shouldn't bottom out on the RE as hard with the stiffer spring. Also with heavy buffers, A5H3/H4, the reciprocating assembly picks up some speed where it might otherwise be a little too slow to return into battery. The material the Spring Co springs are made out of is supposed to be good for a huge amount of cycles without loosin its spring rate, so longevity is a plus.
The Sprinco green I have in my carbine is not anywhere near as smooth as the standard rifle spring I I have in my other A5 setups. It doesn't "glide" inside the tube as smoothly, it actually sounds kind of gritty... doesn't bother me much. This may go away as it wears in.
It is quite a bit stiffer than the standard rifle spring, just like it is advertised to be. I can't speak on the longevity as I only have around 500 rounds with the Sprinco, but they are supposed to have a much longer life than standard springs.
BufordTJustice
11-08-14, 19:36
Related question, I was checking back on this thread and am unclear on one thing. If some people report the sprinco being a bit less smooth, what is the flip side of that, longer life? Greater reliability or tolerance?
Yes to longer life.
vicious_cb
11-08-14, 19:36
The Sprinco green I have in my carbine is not anywhere near as smooth as the standard rifle spring I I have in my other A5 setups. It doesn't "glide" inside the tube as smoothly, it actually sounds kind of gritty... doesn't bother me much. This may go away as it wears in.
It is quite a bit stiffer than the standard rifle spring, just like it is advertised to be. I can't speak on the longevity as I only have around 500 rounds with the Sprinco, but they are supposed to have a much longer life than standard springs.
That's as inconsequential as the sproing in terms of function.
That's as inconsequential as the sproing in terms of function.
I agree, but I'm sure that's what folks are describing as the smoothness with the Sprinco. Unless I misread something... which very well could be the case.:eek:
BufordTJustice
11-08-14, 19:48
The Sprinco green I have in my carbine is not anywhere near as smooth as the standard rifle spring I I have in my other A5 setups. It doesn't "glide" inside the tube as smoothly, it actually sounds kind of gritty... doesn't bother me much. This may go away as it wears in.
It is quite a bit stiffer than the standard rifle spring, just like it is advertised to be. I can't speak on the longevity as I only have around 500 rounds with the Sprinco, but they are supposed to have a much longer life than standard springs.
The spring material is excellent. It's their rate that is an issue. They could change that with different coil spacing and increasing the coil count.
I use their extractor springs exclusively and they are without equal in my experience.
BufordTJustice
11-09-14, 11:02
Also, I just took receipt of a black BCM gunfighter stock and it fits nice and tight on my Vltor A5 RE.
Noticeably lighter than my Magpul STR. So far, I'm digging with the A5.
So what would one expect in difference to feel and performance with say a stock Colt LE 6920? My BCM mid 16" definitely shoots smoother than my Colt and I was wondering if putting in a A5 would really make that much of a difference? I have sifted through many of the A5 threads and I have yet to see anything like "Holy cow... this thing really made a difference on my Colt 6920."
Is this correct, or did you mean to say the heaviest?
I thought it was supposed to be heaviest as well.
So what would one expect in difference to feel and performance with say a stock Colt LE 6920? My BCM mid 16" definitely shoots smoother than my Colt and I was wondering if putting in a A5 would really make that much of a difference? I have sifted through many of the A5 threads and I have yet to see anything like "Holy cow... this thing really made a difference on my Colt 6920."
On a properly gassed carbine I honestly can't tell any difference between an A5 and a carbine spring with an H2 buffer. I've ran the A5 under several Colts and didn't notice anything that I could tell. I don't run any silly heavy buffer springs either.
I would say that there is no point to putting one on a 6920 at all.
On a properly gassed carbine I honestly can't tell any difference between an A5 and a carbine spring with an H2 buffer. I've ran the A5 under several Colts and didn't notice anything that I could tell. I don't run any silly heavy buffer springs either.
I would say that there is no point to putting one on a 6920 at all.
Thank You samuse. Exactly what I was looking for. So would I expect to feel any difference or performance benefits on the BCM 16" ELW middy? I'm not looking to waste money, this thread has really got me intrigued from a learning stand point.
Yes, It does cycle slower than the carbine action system, so it does "feel" different spreading the action movement over a longer period of time. Some like the "feel", some do not for their own reasons. The reduced action speeds has many attributes that are beneficial to the durability and reliability of components and the system as a whole. So, can the system benefit a 6920, yes. Can it benefit a mid gas, yes. The real question is to why not use one, there are cases when it's not, but it's not the majority for anything serious use.
Thank You samuse. Exactly what I was looking for. So would I expect to feel any difference or performance benefits on the BCM 16" ELW middy? I'm not looking to waste money, this thread has really got me intrigued from a learning stand point.
BufordTJustice
11-09-14, 15:24
Thank You samuse. Exactly what I was looking for. So would I expect to feel any difference or performance benefits on the BCM 16" ELW middy? I'm not looking to waste money, this thread has really got me intrigued from a learning stand point.
I totally disagree with samuse. Running an A5H4 or A5H3 brings a very noticeable increase in smoothness and reduction in gun movement on the 6920s I've used.
That has been my experience as well, the A5H4 was a big difference in my 6720 compared to an H2.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right, with a A5H2 with hot ammo like some Independence shows much less extractor pull marks. The A5H4 may be too much in extreme cold for the 6920 series.
I totally disagree with samuse. Running an A5H4 or A5H3 brings a very noticeable increase in smoothness and reduction in gun movement on the 6920s I've used.
I have run (and currently run the A5 on every AR that I own) and have tried several different variations to include rifles, carbine gas, and midlength gas. In addition I have done testing with AR pistols.
There is a noticeable difference with the A5 when used with a carbine gas set up like the 6920. Of course, we can sit here all day long and go back and forth, but ultimately the only way for you to know is to try it.
I was going to PM IG and Buford this question, but perhaps it will help someone else if it's visible to the public:
I have a KAC 14.5 upper and am starting a BCM 10.5 or 11.5 SBR build (will be a factory BCM KMR upper on an AXTS lower).
I want to get an A5 for the build.
Questions:
-VLTOR or Sprinco Green Spring?
-Which buffer to start with? The default (the one in the kit) / H2? / H4? [I'd rather save money for other things than buy a collection of VLTOR buffers:rolleyes:]
After the SBR stamp I will be purchasing a suppressor unless O-Bummer or his new A.G. ends the trust route by then.
el_chingoton13
11-09-14, 16:34
I've had no problems with reliability running the A5 with any of my uppers. (11.5", 14.5",and 16") It just runs.
I think the A5H3 and H4 buffers on a normal carbine or mid is just getting into the ridiculous range.
I ran an A5H3 on a 14.5" Colt and it felt like 'boioioioioioioioioing' trying to get the dot back on target. It's just more reciprocating mass, reciprocating very slowly. The A5 setup did make my 14.5" Daniel Defense upper feel somewhat smoother, but the main reason was the suppressed 10.5" that lives on that lower. It's an improvement there.
I was going to PM IG and Buford this question, but perhaps it will help someone else if it's visible to the public:
I have a KAC 14.5 upper and am starting a BCM 10.5 or 11.5 SBR build (will be a factory BCM KMR upper on an AXTS lower).
I want to get an A5 for the build.
Questions:
-VLTOR or Sprinco Green Spring?
-Which buffer to start with? The default (the one in the kit) / H2? / H4? [I'd rather save money for other things than buy a collection of VLTOR buffers:rolleyes:]
After the SBR stamp I will be purchasing a suppressor unless O-Bummer or his new A.G. ends the trust route by then.
Krusty,
Not Gunz or Buford (which have way more knowledge than myself) but here is my opinion on the buffers. Of course the stock one is the H2. You can make your own A5 buffers all the way up to the H3. The reason why you can't 'make' an H4 is because the first weight has the proprietary setup with the internal spring. Of course all other A5 buffers have this same proprietary first buffer but it is made of steel. Only the H4 has the first tungsten weight with the spring. Make sense? So if you have some extra carbine, H buffers laying around you just saved some money and can experiment with differing weight buffers up the 3. I ended up settling on the 3 as I thought this gave me slightly better insurance in the reliability factor vs the 4 although my guns ran great with the 4. Now I can get one rifle (14.5 mid with BCM Comp) to sometimes-read not very often but still happens-not lock back w/Bronze using the A5H3 after it is considerably dirty. We are talking around a 1000 rounds with absolutely no cleaning. My other rifle with a Battlecomp and similar barrel gas setup can go....well I don't know its never had any issues but I honestly don't shoot that nearly as much.
Point being running a gun to see what locks back the last round on the weakest ammo I use is my test for what weight to use but having a 'dirty rifle' (yeah I know that subjective and there is no standard for what's dirty) and running the same lock back test MAY bring different results.
-Jax
BufordTJustice
11-09-14, 18:41
I was going to PM IG and Buford this question, but perhaps it will help someone else if it's visible to the public:
I have a KAC 14.5 upper and am starting a BCM 10.5 or 11.5 SBR build (will be a factory BCM KMR upper on an AXTS lower).
I want to get an A5 for the build.
Questions:
-VLTOR or Sprinco Green Spring?
-Which buffer to start with? The default (the one in the kit) / H2? / H4? [I'd rather save money for other things than buy a collection of VLTOR buffers:rolleyes:]
After the SBR stamp I will be purchasing a suppressor unless O-Bummer or his new A.G. ends the trust route by then.
Vltor spring and start with the A5H2 buffer, which comes with the kit. Though, you may want to move to an A5H1 for the SR15 if running unsuppressed.
Glockman1968
11-09-14, 19:37
Buford,
I just switched out springs and noticed that the Sprinco green is roughly 1/2in longer than the standard Vltor spring.
I'm assuming this is the norm and possibly the reason, or one of them anyway, behind the "extra power" of the green?
BufordTJustice
11-09-14, 19:54
Buford,
I just switched out springs and noticed that the Sprinco green is roughly 1/2in longer than the standard Vltor spring.
I'm assuming this is the norm and possibly the reason, or one of them anyway, behind the "extra power" of the green?
My springs have the same difference in length.
That is certainly your opinion and no one is forcing you to buy the A5.
I think the A5H3 and H4 buffers on a normal carbine or mid is just getting into the ridiculous range.
I ran an A5H3 on a 14.5" Colt and it felt like 'boioioioioioioioioing' trying to get the dot back on target. It's just more reciprocating mass, reciprocating very slowly. The A5 setup did make my 14.5" Daniel Defense upper feel somewhat smoother, but the main reason was the suppressed 10.5" that lives on that lower. It's an improvement there.
That is certainly your opinion and no one is forcing you to buy the A5.
More mass being moved by the same amount of force over the same distance has to move more slowly. It's not an opinion.
BufordTJustice
11-10-14, 11:07
More mass being moved by the same amount of force over the same distance has to move more slowly. It's not an opinion.
Sam, you've taken 90% of our advice (specifically Gunz and mine) and are stating that you've not experienced 100% of the results. It's not a sliding scale, brother. Your experiences simply do not mirror ours. I can't speak for Will as to how many 6920's he's run, but I've shot 4 separate uppers that I dropped onto my lower with a Vltor spring and A5H4 buffer. They ran substantially smoother....as in they-feel-like-they-have-a-muzzle-brake smooth. The difference is stark and has been immmediately noticeable for anybody who picks up the gun. The A5H3 buffer feels very similar.
Sam, we're not calling you out and nobody is forcing you to support the A5 system if you do not choose to, but the laws of physics certainly do govern here. We're talking about a spring-assisted, elastic collision (non-ideal). By increasing the mass, there is a substantial reduction in the kinetic energy that is brought to the rear of the receiver extension as the BCG/buffer stack bottom out during full recoil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision
Kinetic energy is Ek= 1/2mv(squared). This means that reducing either mass or velocity will have a disproportionate effect on the reduction of the energy deposited by the BCG/buffer stack at the end of the RE. It's also why ultra-light buffers work to reduce felt recoil (though with other consequences affecting reliability).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy
It has been my extensive experience that using heavier buffers reduces gun movement on all axis. This includes twisting around the bore, rocking motions from front to rear, muzzle climb (with the pivot point at the shoulder), and reduced sharpness of rearward recoil, etc. This is over dozens and dozens of guns tested over thousands of rounds. I'm sure Gunz has even more experience.
Also, saying that the A5H2 buffer (which esentially mimics the rifle recoil system) creates anything but a smoother shooting gun, while it may be your legitimate experience, that is not the experience of virtually any shooter I've encountered. While it's certainly possible (indeed, anything is), a gun that shot WORSE with the Rifle or A5 system using the A5H2 buffer would most certainly be a non-standard setup that substantially deviated from the normal balance of chamber dimensions, gas system pressure curve, etc.
I submit this respectfully and not to invalidate any of your personal experiences, but I have to go on record with my own in this thread.
IMO, an H4 buffer on an unsuppressed 16" carbine is a band-aid fix. With only an A5H4 on my carbine, it didn't spit the brass out like an A5H2 did, it dropped it out. It was too much for MY SETUP with the Sprinco green. An H3 might be a happy medium, but I haven't tried it. I've been pretty happy with the H2.
If you really want to smooth it out, you need to decrease the amount of gas coming through the gas port. With the A5 system and an adjustable gas block... talk about smooootthhh!
jerrysimons
11-10-14, 13:02
Buford, I have racked my brain before trying to understand the kenetic characteristics of the reciprocating assembly. Can you explain the equation a little more. I have always thought the relationship between mass and velocity in the system was proportionate due to momentum, but I think you were saying the are disproportionate? In practice terms I am talking about lightweight buffer vs heavy buffers but in terms of kenetic energy. Thanks
I'll fifth the idea of an H3 on a standard Carbine upper. Both my BCM Socom and my 10.5 FN carbines are too snappy/whippy with the standard H2 buffer.
BufordTJustice
11-10-14, 13:48
Jerry,
Calculating Kinetic energy involves taking the square of something. That means altering a variable by a small amount will have an exponential effect on the final product.
An example would be that doubling the reciprocating weight could cause the BCG/buffer stack to strike the rear of the RE at 1/2 of the original speed, but deposit 1/4 of the original energy. Don't quote me on those figures because I haven't done the math, but you get the idea. It is also a function of spreading the impact over a much longer period of time.
This is DISTINCT from calculating the entire energy budget of the operating system. This is focusing on the narrow aspect of the BCG/buffer stack and the force with which it bottoms against the interior of the RE. This is NOT accounting for the energy absorbed/stored by the action spring, which does not change, or internal frictions.
EDIT: It is also expressive of the concept of the Stoner 86/96, which did not bottom, but the entire reciprocating assembly exhausted all of its energy into the action spring(s) without ever contacting the interior of the receiver. This is arguably the most controllable machine gun ever designed. Reed Knight has demonstrated firing it FA with one hand with ease. Same concept, but different system. Balancing spring strength with buffer weight with gas drive with weapon weight.
jerrysimons
11-10-14, 14:27
Jerry,
Calculating Kinetic energy involves taking the square of something. That means altering a variable by a small amount will have an exponential effect on the final product.
An example would be that doubling the reciprocating weight could cause the BCG/buffer stack to strike the rear of the RE at 1/2 of the original speed, but deposit 1/4 of the original energy. Don't quote me on those figures because I haven't done the math, but you get the idea. It is also a function of spreading the impact over a much longer period of time.
Ah, I knew I was missing something using p=mv only. My thought was always circular, yes it is slower (and spreads the impulse over more time) but there is also more mass when it hits so the momentum is the same. But kinetic energy is not the same as momentum, right, so reduced velocity results in a greater reduction of energy while mass is inversely proportional to velocity? This means that greater mass in the reciprocating assembly is the better way to reduce recoil impulse over lightening the buffer assembly and letting it cycle faster (gas pressure remaining constant)? Doesn't momentum comeback it to play with stripping and chambering the next round (aswell as cycle rate not outrunning the mag spring)?
If I have all of this straight than if one were to lighten the reciprocating assembly without also reducing the gas pressure they are actually increasing the kenetic energy when it hits and the impulse into the shooter's shoulder, albeit over less amount of time.
BufordTJustice
11-10-14, 15:05
Ah, I knew I was missing something using p=mv only. My thought was always circular, yes it is slower (and spreads the impulse over more time) but there is also more mass when it hits so the momentum is the same. But kinetic energy is not the same as momentum, right, so reduced velocity results in a greater reduction of energy while mass is inversely proportional to velocity? This means that greater mass in the reciprocating assembly is the better way to reduce recoil impulse over lightening the buffer assembly and letting it cycle faster (gas pressure remaining constant)?
Gas pressure remaining constant, yes.
Doesn't momentum comeback it to play with stripping and chambering the next round (aswell as cycle rate not outrunning the mag spring)?
I'm focusing on the rearward recoil stroke right now. The action spring plays an enormous role in the return to battery stroke. Even more so with heavier reciprocating assemblies because they get much less rebound off of the contact with the RE than a lighter assembly.
If I have all of this straight than if one were to lighten the reciprocating assembly without also reducing the gas pressure they are actually increasing the kenetic energy when it hits and the impulse into the shooter's shoulder, albeit over less amount of time.
Yes.
Vltor is doing free shipping, so now is the time to grab a rifle spring if interested
I'm planning to try the a5 now as well. Previously, I used an h buffer and sprinco blue spring. It works great suppressed and unsuppressed with everything from 70gr browntip to wolf. My host is and 16.1" daniel defense middy. I and planning to just use the included buffer with the vltor kit. The 5.3oz one. How will this correlate to my h/blue in and carbine re?
Good plan.
The A5 is a much heavier buffer with a softer spring.
The action will cycle more slowly and have less energy.
This will most likely feel smoother to you.
I'm planning to try the a5 now as well. Previously, I used an h buffer and sprinco blue spring. It works great suppressed and unsuppressed with everything from 70gr browntip to wolf. My host is and 16.1" daniel defense middy. I and planning to just use the included buffer with the vltor kit. The 5.3oz one. How will this correlate to my h/blue in and carbine re?
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 12:23
Anyone running the A5 setup on 300blk SBR........?
Just curious s I have been pondering trying out an A5 setup for some time but I was shooting 5.56 then.
FM
I have on a few, can work pretty well.
Part of the beauty of the A5 system is that just about any reasonably gassed upper that works with an CAR H2 will run fine, regardless of caliber or configuration.
For example, all the following uppers run with the A5 buffer.
8.5" pistol gas 6.8
11.5" carbine gas 6.8
12.5" carbine gas 5.56
16" mid gas 5.56
16" mid gas 6.8
Anyone running the A5 setup on 300blk SBR........?
Just curious s I have been pondering trying out an A5 setup for some time but I was shooting 5.56 then.
FM
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 14:34
Part of the beauty of the A5 system is that just about any reasonably gassed upper that works with an CAR H2 will run fine, regardless of caliber or configuration.
For example, all the following uppers run with the A5 buffer.
8.5" pistol gas 6.8
11.5" carbine gas 6.8
12.5" carbine gas 5.56
16" mid gas 5.56
16" mid gas 6.8
So start with the A5 setup as it comes and go from there with the buffer weights?
10" pistol length gas system SBR in 300 BLK
BufordTJustice
11-30-14, 14:49
So start with the A5 setup as it comes and go from there with the buffer weights?
10" pistol length gas system SBR in 300 BLK
Yeah, start with the std A5H2 buffer. You may find, based on your experimentation on your gun, that you want to step down to an A5H1. But you want to go as heavy as you can while still getting lock back on empty.
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 14:51
Yeah, start with the std A5H2 buffer. You may find, based on your experimentation on your gun, that you want to step down to an A5H1. But you want to go as heavy as you can while still getting lock back on empty.
This will be trickier for the 300 as the goal is to run subs and supersonic ammo with and without the can with no issue, but luckily my upper came with an adjustable gas block.....
BufordTJustice
11-30-14, 14:57
This will be trickier for the 300 as the goal is to run subs and supersonic ammo with and without the can with no issue, but luckily my upper came with an adjustable gas block.....
The A5 system accommodates running suppressed and unsuppressed better than the carbine or rifle buffer system. You're hunting the right track, here. :)
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 14:59
The A5 system accommodates running suppressed and unsuppressed better than the carbine or rifle buffer system. You're hunting the right track, here. :)
Thanks I'm taking the UBR off the rig now and needed a RE anyhow so might as well spring for the A5 now.......
BufordTJustice
11-30-14, 15:11
Thanks I'm taking the UBR off the rig now and needed a RE anyhow so might as well spring for the A5 now.......
Roger that. You won't regret it.
What buffer and spring are you using right now?
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 15:17
Roger that. You won't regret it.
What buffer and spring are you using right now?
H2 buffer and regular spring, that's what I always ran on my bcd middy uppers in 5.56 and what I ran on my 12.5" 5.56 DD upper all with no issue......
BufordTJustice
11-30-14, 15:42
H2 buffer and regular spring, that's what I always ran on my bcd middy uppers in 5.56 and what I ran on my 12.5" 5.56 DD upper all with no issue......
Yeah, I'd be pretty surprised if the std A5H2 buffer didn't work perfectly for you.
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 15:46
Yeah, I'd be pretty surprised if the std A5H2 buffer didn't work perfectly for you.
Thanks for your info from a fellow Floridian :cool:
BufordTJustice
11-30-14, 16:07
Thanks for your info from a fellow Floridian :cool:
Np, brother. Get ready for the heat. It's coming back by mid week. :/
Fire_Medic
11-30-14, 16:12
Np, brother. Get ready for the heat. It's coming back by mid week. :/
It's always hot down south lol......
BufordTJustice
11-30-14, 16:27
It's always hot down south lol......
True. My house A.C. went out the day before thanksgiving. Gotta wait till tomorrow to find out if I'm looking at parts replacement or a whole new system. F#ck.
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